Pope Francis sets out vision for more gay people and women in 'new' church

[Katashi_itto]

Pope Francis gives wide-ranging interview to Italian journal and urges Catholics to show 'audacity and courage' in drive for reform


Pope Francis has set out his desire to find a "new balance" in the Catholic church, calling for greater involvement of women in key decisions and a less condemnatory approach towards gay people, divorcees and women who have had an abortion.

In a wide-ranging interview with an Italian Jesuit journal, the Pope calls for the Catholic church, the world's largest Christian church with 1.2bn members, to face up to the need for reform. Offering a dramatic contrast to the traditional conservative approach of his predecessor, Benedict XVI, Francis says the first reform must be one of "attitude", adding that unless a new balance is found, "the moral edifice of the church is likely to fall like a house of cards".

The Pope urges Catholics to show "audacity and courage" in their approach to people who, in the past, have been given short shrift by the church, including those who "do not attend mass, who have quit or are indifferent".

Asked how he would respond to Catholics who are divorced or remarried or gay, he replies: "I used to receive letters from homosexual persons who are 'socially wounded', because they tell me that they feel like the church has always condemned them. But the church does not want to do this."

He goes on: "A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality. I replied with another question: 'Tell me: when God looks at a gay person, does he endorse the existence of this person with love, or reject and condemn this person?' We must always consider the person … In life, God accompanies persons, and we must accompany them, starting from their situation."
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/19/pope-francis-vision-new-catholic-church

(me personally I was indifferent and a lapsed catholic. I was done with the church under Pope Ratzo.

I had grown up in the Navy(Joined when I was 17) and had a highly intolerant, militarist attitude towards gays.

I became a gay rights proponent when I found out my cousin (and my only family) was gay.

Hence, if my views can evolve, I see no reason why the Churches can't. This pope is encouraging, even if it is in small steps, it's better than no steps at all.)

[yeoman6987]

1. Wow!

I know that some are not convinced that the Pope wants change, but please keep in mind that he is NOT even Pope a year yet. I know that some are upset with the "cheerleading" but this Pope seems to seriously want to transform the Catholic Church.

[Katashi_itto]

2. Exactly, they seem to be highly upset that he just doenst change stuff overnight

to their time schedule

[Zorra]

41. People said the that same type of condescending bullshit to blacks back in the day.

"Just what do "those people" expect? They can even drink out of the same water fountain as us now! How's that for progress?

Do they just think they should be equal to us overnight?"



John F. Kennedy:

“The heart of the question is whether all Americans are to be afforded equal rights and equal opportunities; whether we are going to treat our fellow Americans as we want to be treated.”

[deutsey]

6. +1

[Dawgs]

26. +1

[PeaceNikki]

3. I don't give a shit what he does with his church. I want him and the RCC to stop actively and

systematically trying to take away the rights of women and LGBT in our secular society, please and thank you.

[yeoman6987]

5. That is what he is trying to do

I don't think he is trying to take away anything. He is trying to give woman a bigger role in the Church. He is welcoming the LGBT community more than ever before. Now as far as abortion goes, he says it is horrid. He didn't say anything about secular society getting rid of it. He just said it was horrid.

[PeaceNikki]

8. until he explicitly tells his "flock" to stop lobbying against our rights, it means nothing

Oh yay, he wants us to be Catholic.

Never.

[riversedge]

9. He does not seem to have any control over the US Bishops who are waging

the war on women's reproductive health--and the repugs are happy to have them on their side.

[PeaceNikki]

12. Amen.

[PeaceNikki]

20. upon further reflection, I think he has perfect control of them

They do the dirty work while he's the lovely face of the church.

He did reaffirm the censure on US nuns that Ratz placed.

[Bluenorthwest]

37. Last week he elevated to Cardinal Gerhard Muller, the Benedict appointed head of the

Inquisition office, the Congregation For the Doctrine of the Faith
. On DU, the claim was that he'd named only 'outsiders' but the fact is he took the guy from the worst of the worst and named him Cardinal.
On Wednesday, Muller joined Ratzinger for a lovely family birthday celebration!
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/edward-pentin/monsignor-ratzinger-celebrates-90th-birthday-with-pope-emeritus

[ananda]

31. Hear hear!

It's time Pope Frank and the entire church speak out for and act on
full human rights for everyone.

[weissmam]

4. I guess

even a little step is better than no step


This should have the anti gay wing nuts tripping over them selves

[PeaceNikki]

7. As long as he and the church keep squashing our rights legislatively

They'll be happy

[Katashi_itto]

11. Thats my attitude. I mean, reality is you have 1 Billion plus followers. Would you rather their

leader preach more tolerance -even just a little or go the Pat Robertson route?

Plus Francis isn't stupid, he knows he church must evolve or die.

[Bluenorthwest]

17. Don't ask those being condemned by a hate preacher to be delighted at half

assed rhetoric and a less condemnatory tone. What should be asked of them is forgiveness, in clearly penitent tones and directly apologetic language supported by actions to make amends.
He and his group have done harm to those who never harmed them, they did it for reasons of their own bigotry and agenda.
Where is the apology from the old hate monger who calls my family an attack on God?

[Katashi_itto]

28. Yes and we covered this before

[Bluenorthwest]

33. So where is the apology for his libels and slanders against my community?

Where, in fact, is any mention of what is going on in Uganda in this puff piece? Uganda is 42% RCC and they are the largest religious group there. They are rounding up gay people to put in prison for life. Francis who owes amends makes none, he has not urged his followers to cease this hateful action they are committing, he does not bother to call them out, nor to condemn that law. Because he does not care, he is silent.
He will not be forgiven without apology and the making of amends. He has made great harm upon innocents, and for that he must be accountable or his faith and that of his followers is nothing but gestures and hot air crafted to allow their own profit and pleasures.

[seaglass]

10. The moral edifice has already collapsed - if it ever existed. n/t

[Katashi_itto]

14. A "collapsed" moral edifice still with a billion plus followers, still seems pretty influential

[seaglass]

36. To an extent. I was raised a Catholic, I know many Catholics, and most I know are

cafeteria Catholics. There is a reason for that. Goes back to the morals of the church - what is accepted and what is rejected.

[Katashi_itto]

54. Yes, except thats still a far cry from your "collapsed moral edifice"

[seaglass]

55. I'm not a Catholic, cafeteria or otherwise. It is my opinion that the Catholic Church is immoral.

I won't speak for my family or the many, many Catholics who have left the church.

[Katashi_itto]

56. Well subtract your family out and it's still running at a billion plus.

As to the CC being Immoral or not is Immaterial, the fact is it's an influence and I would prefer a sightly progressive pope like we have now over the last Pope Ratzo. Small steps are better than none.

[seaglass]

58. It doesn't matter to me how many people love the Pope - did you know over 90% of Americans

supported Bush after 9/11? I don't change my mind about someone/something merely because the numbers aren't on my side.

[Katashi_itto]

59. Did I say change your mind?

[seaglass]

60. Getting bored. See ya. n/t

[jtuck004]

13. Throwing money changers out of the temple, or at least their bank. Being polite and respectful to

gay people and women? Exhorting his church to extend a hand, to smell like the sheep?

Must have some kind of messiah complex or something. Seems harmless enough, though. Probably a nice fella, or at least on his way there.

[Bluenorthwest]

15. To make amends for his years of hate speech and attacks on us

a man of his age needs to waste no time if he intends to make penance. This man has a stack of offenses against LGBT people a mile high, he's been an active opponent of our rights and he has used language that is utterly hate soaked.
Here is what this article actually says:

"Pope Francis has set out his desire to find a "new balance" in the Catholic church, calling for greater involvement of women in key decisions and a less condemnatory approach towards gay people, divorcees and women who have had an abortion."

Less condemnatory. Wowser, how wonderful, condemnation, just less of it. Not going to cut through the years of active hatred from his organization and from himself.
I see no apology, I see no amends made, I see no penance nor attitude thereof. Less condemnatory. Fuck that.

[PeaceNikki]

18. This is the "catholicism wow!" campaign from Dogma and Francis is Buddy Christ.

He just wants more people in church while fighting against our rights outside of it.

[Bluenorthwest]

24. Exactly. Francis Pope Superstar, Media Edition

It is also a retread of the first years of JP2, the People's Pope they called that one, he also did the photos of himself hugging obviously disfigured people and passing among the poor, hanging out with Bono and wearing those famous shades for the camera. Seen it and seen it.
'Less condemnatory'.

[Bluenorthwest]

25. It's Film Friday, in honor of the Oscar Nominations!

[PeaceNikki]

32. lol. ok, shitty photoshop time, too!

[yodermon]

61. The RCC is a hate group. If it's ever to change direction, which will take a generational shift, I

wonder what sort of Pope might preside over the transition point or inflection point?
I guess i'm at least hoping that francis is setting in motion forces that will carry the RCC to a better place at some point in the future.
I'm understand that this thinking is small consolation to LGBT folks who are actively being hurt by the RCC.

"Less condemnatory. Fuck that."
Well of course this is correct, however, you can't get from "Full conmdemnatory" to "full acceptance" without going thru "Less condemnatory". If you want to inveigh against every incremental step on the continuum because it's not fully perfect , well, congratulations, you'll always be right.

[Swede Atlanta]

16. While I am pleased with a new tone and focus with this pope read his words very carefully.......

He says, with respect to gay persons, "consider the person", "we must accompany them starting from their situation".

Unless we see something that clarifies this and similar previous statements he has made I am not perceiving a significant shift from the church's previous position was "hate the sin, love the sinner".

That is another way of saying it is okay if you are homosexual (or for may you have "chosen" to be a homosexual) but the sin of expressing that homosexuality in your manners and, heaven forbid, intimacy including sexual relations, or accepting yourself and living true to your being is not allowed.

I do think he is trying to get the church away from focus on what he considers social issues that will destroy the church - abortion, women's rights and homosexuals and onto more pressing matters of poverty, hunger, income inequality. If you look at where the church is growing it is growing rapidly in the developing world. What are the issues faced by those nations? Poverty, hunger, income inequality.

Where the church is stable or even shrinking (at least in terms of attendance) the church is very focused on 1st world issues of abortion, women's rights (especially reproductive rights) and homosexuality.

So his refocusing of the church is in line with where the church is growing. That is a wise strategy.

[Bluenorthwest]

22. Thanks for your honesty. They all say 'hate the sin, not the sinner' in varous ways

it is central to the message of the hate preachers, who can not really just say 'we hate them' and always gussy up the intolerance.
I expect Francis to be the bigot he his, what I do not care for is this aggressive attack on LGBT DUers using him as a weapon of communications.
To wake up and find 'hate the sin, love the sinner' being foisted on DU as great stuff is very hurtful. This place should be secular, no religious testing and none of this aggression. This shit is not an act of love nor of acceptance nor even of tolerance.

[Swede Atlanta]

30. Bluenorthwest

I am a gay man.

Are you suggesting that my post was directed at you in a hurtful manner? If so please explain why.

All I was suggesting was some perceive a significant shift in the church's attitude toward LGBT persons and I am saying that if you carefully parse his words I am not sure there is a big shift away from the "love/hate" language that has been part and parcel of not only the RCC but many other Christian churches for decades.

As well I am suggesting he is trying to refocus the church on addressing issues that are of central concern in parts of the world where the church is growing and away from issues that continue to churn in the developed world where the church is not growing or is at best holding its own.

As a gay man I am also offended by the love/hate statements because they are totally incongruous with my faith tradition and my own life experience.

I hope Francis' words turn into broader actions and that we do in fact see an open dialogue within the RCC (not my faith tradition) about the issues he feels have hurt the church including their exclusion and denigration of homosexual persons.

[Bluenorthwest]

34. I thanked you for your honest reading of Francis 'love the sinner, hate the sin' BS

Not sure what made you think otherwise, my words were 'thanks for your honesty'. Many others lack that honesty, and claim that the 'hate the sin, love the sinner' crap is some glorious thing, something all LGBT people should be delighted with, when it is just the same old crap all the religious bigots say.
This very OP is claiming that LGBT people should be happy to be condemned less, still condemned, just not so strongly. It is offensive and hurtful bullshit.

[Swede Atlanta]

44. Thanks.....you and I are in total agreement

The OP is suggesting we should be happy at being condemned less or less openly. And as I read it even if people interpreted Francis' words to go beyond that the actual words he uses suggest he isn't deviating much, if at all, from the church's historical position of "love/hate".

I am very unhappy he has not spoken out and engaged his subordinates about the hateful policies and laws being enacted in sub-saharan Africa which is one of the church's fastest growing regions.

Actions speak louder than soundbites!

[theHandpuppet]

47. Think you would be interested in this article

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-becker/pope-francis-says-more-nice-words-about-lgbts-changes-nothing_b_3963034.html

[IdaBriggs]

48. The church only wants married people having sex.

And I think they are clear about it being "only with each other."

So, telling gay people not to have sex is actually a step toward equality, right?

<-- attempt at dark humor

I think this is a step in the right direction. Still a long way to go, of course, but definitely a step in a good direction....

[theHandpuppet]

52. Yeah they only want married people to have sex...

...and they only want straight people to be married. My partner and I have been together 25 years and we still don't have the rights so many people here take for granted, so you'll pardon me if I don't share in the dark humor.

[vlyons]

19. I am a Buddhist and I love this Pope!

I see HH as a Bodhisattva. In my tradition, a Bodhisattva is someone who works to relieve the suffering of everyone, and to accomplish the happiness of everyone. We call that "compassion." So by that definition, Pope Francis is definitely a Boddhisattva. It doesn't matter what religion someone is, or even if no religion at all, to work to relieve the suffering of others is what truly brings happiness to our own selves; I don't care what Ayn Rand says!

Yes, the Catholic Church has a lot of harm to answer for, but when a guy like Pope Francis is out there leading the way for his church and its bishops to open the hearts of its membership to practice more compassion towards everyone, well he has my support. More power to him.

[SidDithers]

21. Some pretty slick parsing of words, there...nt

Sid

[Bluenorthwest]

23. I assume, Sid, that his one billiion followers do not have good reading

comprehension, they read ugly crap like this and think it says something really positive.
Francis was asked a direct and important question, which he deflected with another question, dismissing the issue and reducing it to sophistry. He can not even answer a question put to him directly about LGBT people. It is disgusting.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

38. That's right. Your reading comprehension is better than all 1 billion Catholics' reading comp.

Feeling a little delusional this morning?

[theHandpuppet]

45. I guess these guys didn't get the message

Must be their reading comprehension is lacking.

http://www.usccb.org/
http://www.usccb.org/news/2013/13-240.cfm
http://www.usccb.org/news/2014/14-007.cfm
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/promotion-and-defense-of-marriage/resources.cfm
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/promotion-and-defense-of-marriage/frequently-asked-questions-on-defense-of-marriage.cfm
http://www.usccb.org/news/2013/13-221.cfm
http://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/marriage-and-family/marriage/promotion-and-defense-of-marriage/defense-of-marriage-in-the-news.cfm

Of course, should anyone need a daily reminder, here's your prayer for the defense of marriage:
http://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/prayers/prayer-defense-of-marriage.cfm

[DisgustipatedinCA]

46. I don't understand what this has to do with my post.

You're stretching to draw an analogy that isn't really valid. But if your purpose is to point out that the Catholic Church still does lots of wrongheaded things, I'll simply agree with you. But the Catholic Church is still making big inroads from a year ago when the Nazi Pope hadn't resigned to his penthouse yet.

[Ilsa]

27. Hopefully, these baby steps will evolve further

into acceptance of people who don't follow the routine nuclear family plan. The RCC has a way to go. But I think this pope understands that judgmental attitudes will crush their church over time due to its exclusivity.

[get the red out]

29. Small steps are better than no steps

If the Catholic Church can be taken from the clutches of those who absolutely despise gay people and want to stomp women into the dirt, along with voting to support the oligarchy and oppose anything that benefits actual human beings; that's progress and adds a little hope in the world.

[Bluenorthwest]

35. Small steps are a luxury they can not afford. Uganda's largest religious group is RCC

at 42% of the population, that nation just passed and is enforcing a law to put gay people in prison for life. Francis has not spoken out against that inhuman action in a nation that is among the one billion followers folks on DU say make Francis so influential. Why does he not use that alleged influence to speak out against a pogrom?

[get the red out]

42. I wish he would

I wish the Catholic Church would really get with true human rights. Sadly, I doubt we can expect a faster rate of change than this. I never expected to see any glimmer of hope for change out of them in my lifetime, so that is why I see it as better than nothing.

I'm not Catholic, so I don't have a reason to try to defend them from a personal standpoint.

[Ohio Joe]

39. So... No actual change, just a 'hey guys, lets not focus so much on condemning'

And people cheer this?

Fucked up.

[eShirl]

40. I will give credit where (and when) credit is due. Still,

I can see why it is said this pope has great PR. Over the months, it's as if a cult of personality is slowly being fluffed up.

[theHandpuppet]

43. Yeah, it even works here on DU

How many Pope threads have you opened to find huge photos of a smiley Francis before you even get to the text? Here's a pic of Francis' old car. A pic of him kissing a baby. A generic photo of him waving to the crowd. Here's a picture of his chair. Washing someone's feet. Greeting a gathering of bikers. It's like a fan club with a huge picture album. Do you see that kind of thing with other subjects here? Could you possibly expect any kind of objective discourse when you open such threads? It's ridiculous if not outright prosthelytizing.

[IdaBriggs]

51. Do you understand the importance of the imagery and the *changes*

he is making with that symbolism?

Just the "washing the feet" of convicted criminals, lepers, women and Muslims was a *very* big deal. He put himself - a "prince of the church" - in a position of subservience to others who are normally shunned or previously disparaged by those in power, and elevated them.

Let me repeat that: he *elevated* women and people of a different faith that previous popes had sent troops against in "holy war." (Also criminals and those suffering from scary disease - he even washed the feet of AIDS patients!!!)

These are signals of big changes. Are they more than symbols? We are all watching with baited breath. For those (and I can't truthfully count myself among them) who understand the "language" of the images, the message being conveyed is a "return to original message" at a level that is revolutionary:

Love thy neighbor. Period. LOVE THY NEIGHBOR. Not "only if" but simply LOVE THY NEIGHBOR.

Regardless of everything else, LOVE THY NEIGHBOR.

I am praying it isn't just a marketing campaign.

[theHandpuppet]

53. Its reached the point of prosthelytizing

Last I heard, "Love thy Neighbor" doesn't manifest itself in institutional bigotry. That's called hypocrisy.

[Baitball Blogger]

49. What was that?

"calling for greater involvement of women in key decisions and a less condemnatory approach towards gay people, divorcees and women who have had an abortion."

[snooper2]

50. At least the dude is smart enough to see religion is dying

Better try to round up as many people as we can now otherwise in 100 years we won't have NEAR the money coming in!


LOL...

Time to change up the business model a little bit! You can't only sell to one segment of society you have to sell your crap to everyone!

[Vashta Nerada]

57. "A person once asked me, in a provocative manner, if I approved of homosexuality."

"And I replied with a non-answer answer."

All talk.

[Sgent]

62. Yep

but he's still significantly to the left on gay issues compared to prior popes. For instance Benedict set up an inquisition to insure the priesthood was not admitting gay men -- because according to him gay men in the priesthood caused the pedophilia issues in the church.

Don't get me wrong, Francis has major problems with women and gays, but he's much more of a white citizen's council member than a Nazi, which is an improvement on both those issues.