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cali

(114,904 posts)
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 07:23 AM Jan 2014

I have had a visceral opposition to the death penalty since I was a very small child

where in hell it came from, I don't know. I was a voracious reader as a kid, but horror of state sponsored killing predates that, I think. Once I did start reading, my horror of the state killing just increase.

I know it's better for the sake of argument to point out that the death penalty is expensive, that it doesn't reduce murder, that its unfairly applied, that people innocent of the crime they've been convicted of, are sentenced to death, etc. and those are all excellent reasons to oppose the dp, but at the very root of my opposition is that same visceral horror of state sponsored killing that I've had for as long as I can remember.

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I have had a visceral opposition to the death penalty since I was a very small child (Original Post) cali Jan 2014 OP
I was always wholeheartedly in favor of it. Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #1
How about those that are mentally ill? Live and Learn Jan 2014 #4
??? Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #6
It seemed you were suggesting that you changed your mind Live and Learn Jan 2014 #8
I really have no idea how you came to that conclusion. Maybe you should re-read it. Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #9
Not really. Live and Learn Jan 2014 #12
... Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #13
Was that your final say? lol nt Live and Learn Jan 2014 #16
Since you apparently cannot understand simple English, Sheldon Cooper Jan 2014 #17
Was that a no? nt Live and Learn Jan 2014 #19
. Iggo Jan 2014 #35
Me too! I hate that they kill anyone Live and Learn Jan 2014 #2
When I learned at a young age that executions were often used as political weapons, livingwagenow Jan 2014 #3
Exactly, unless we profess all killings to be unacceptable Live and Learn Jan 2014 #7
I was the same, Sen. Walter Sobchak Jan 2014 #5
I was born in 1947 and raised by my Jewish mother.. mountain grammy Jan 2014 #27
I have never been a supporter of the death penalty kydo Jan 2014 #10
well, you and I are very different. You're advocating torture and vengeance. cali Jan 2014 #11
+1 Rehabilitation and medical research for those cases where Live and Learn Jan 2014 #15
I'm not advocating torture and vengeance kydo Jan 2014 #25
The true heart of the matter: "it dimishes us all." markpkessinger Jan 2014 #34
I always knew the death penalty was wrong. My parents always knew the death penalty was wrong Douglas Carpenter Jan 2014 #14
I have been against the death penalty all my life malaise Jan 2014 #18
There are very few people that I feel absolutely earned a death penalty Demeter Jan 2014 #20
I hear you- and at moments of rage, feel the same way, but I just can't endorse the state killing cali Jan 2014 #22
This would be more international in scope, usually Demeter Jan 2014 #23
On your side 110%.... N_E_1 for Tennis Jan 2014 #21
Very easy to do away with the chances of executing innocents. Change the law. 7962 Jan 2014 #24
Nope. I am against the state killing. period. no exceptions. ever. cali Jan 2014 #26
So we disagree then. Thats ok. Thats why this is a "discussion" board! nt 7962 Jan 2014 #30
I'm opposed to it, without equivocations. marmar Jan 2014 #28
No government should have the power of life and death over its citizens rock Jan 2014 #29
I recall hearing about the Romanian revolution and Ceausescu's execution and feeling conflicted Tommy_Carcetti Jan 2014 #31
I've always felt the same... SiobhanClancy Jan 2014 #32
Me too. I think I remember when it was applegrove Jan 2014 #33

Sheldon Cooper

(3,724 posts)
1. I was always wholeheartedly in favor of it.
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 07:37 AM
Jan 2014

You couldn't kill them fast enough for me. And if it was a painful death, well tough shit.

And then many years ago I saw a show on TV that discussed how the state of Illinois declared a moratorium on the DP because it turned out that something like 12 people on death row were ultimately exonerated through DNA. My opinion changed, literally, overnight. You cannot kill anyone when there is a chance that even one of them could be innocent. It's simply unacceptable. That is the strongest argument for me.

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
4. How about those that are mentally ill?
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 07:53 AM
Jan 2014

(As undoubtedly the majority of those that kill are?) Is it okay to kill the ill? Or those that are simply temporarily deranged (the temporarily insane)? Should someone be killed for a simple deranged moment?

Who exactly do you think it is okay to kill? And for what reasons?

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
8. It seemed you were suggesting that you changed your mind
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 08:00 AM
Jan 2014

just because some might be innocent. If that is true, I wanted to know which of those guilty of the crime you would be willing to kill.

Sheldon Cooper

(3,724 posts)
9. I really have no idea how you came to that conclusion. Maybe you should re-read it.
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 08:04 AM
Jan 2014
You cannot kill anyone when there is a chance that even one of them could be innocent. It's simply unacceptable.


Emphasis added, and just to be clear: I am not willing to kill anyone. Period. Feel better now?

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
12. Not really.
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 09:37 AM
Jan 2014

You are stating that you are only opposed because someone innocent might be condemned. Meaning, I suppose, that if there were a 100% way to rule out the innocent you would support it.

Unless you consider all the examples I gave above innocent, then you would be for killing them. So, I ask again exactly who (already in state custody, and thereby no longer an immediate threat to any person) would it be okay for the state to kill?


Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
2. Me too! I hate that they kill anyone
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 07:47 AM
Jan 2014

and then pretend to do it in my name. At least they should call it what it is , revenge-twisted-asshat-sponsored_murder. Killing is wrong for any reason, it doesn't matter who sponsors it!

 

livingwagenow

(373 posts)
3. When I learned at a young age that executions were often used as political weapons,
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 07:51 AM
Jan 2014

that's when I started turning against any form of state sponsored killing.

In high school, I did a report on the cost of capitol punishment here in America. The cost of DP cases, death row, appeals and carrying out the sentence is astronomical compared to life sentence with no parole.

You may have already studied or know, but for a mind-blowing history lesson, research the guillotine executioners of France. Some of those men executed thousands through their guillotines. Those executioners must have been very cold human beings, like the walking dead, to carry out thousands of beheadings.

That's a huge part of why I am anti-DP.

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
7. Exactly, unless we profess all killings to be unacceptable
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 07:57 AM
Jan 2014

the we are all at risk. State sponsored killings are not exceptions but enablers of continued killings.

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
5. I was the same,
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 07:55 AM
Jan 2014

I was very young when there was a ballot proposition to restore the death penalty in California after it had ended. And it just made no sense to me. If the person was already in jail it just seemed unnecessary. Growing up in a secular although jewish family I did have a passing understanding of what the holocaust had been and the idea to me that there were people passionately in favor of the State of California killing with the gas chamber just horrified me. It kept me up at night.

Even having had a family member murdered in a robbery didn't shake me on that one bit.

mountain grammy

(26,571 posts)
27. I was born in 1947 and raised by my Jewish mother..
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 10:20 AM
Jan 2014

as long as I can remember, I was taught that the "state" has no right to take a human life, ever. As I got older, I argued with mom; what about this murderer or that murderer, but my mom held strong, the state should never execute. I remained argumentative until the late 60's when I read the book "The Hurricaine" by Rubin Carter and finally understood what I already knew, our justice system is so fucked up we shouldn't even be imprisoning half the people who are locked up, much less executing anyone.

Sometimes I'm in awe of how far ahead of her time my mother always was.

kydo

(2,679 posts)
10. I have never been a supporter of the death penalty
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 08:13 AM
Jan 2014

Even as a kid.

I never understood why we let the criminal off so easy with the death penalty. We can only kill them once even if they murdered multiple times. The death the government imposes is supposed to be swift and painless as possible. Which is not the same benefit the murderer provided for their victims.

I would prefer a life sentence without parole. After all appeals have been used the condemned should be put on an isolated island kind of like that movie Escape from New York but an island not a city. Like devils island but no guards on the island - just mines, sharks or some type of implant that makes them explode if they are outside the boundaries.

The people on that island will have to fend for themselves with just the clothes on their backs. They are also dead to the world meaning no contact with loved ones or lawyers, no mail no tv no nothing from the real world.

As I got older and learned more (like the cost, its not a deterrent, the racial disparity, the class disparity and the fact we have put innocent people to death) I became even more hardened in my belief against the death penalty.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
11. well, you and I are very different. You're advocating torture and vengeance.
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 08:52 AM
Jan 2014

what I'm trying to say is that shit diminishes all of us.

Live and Learn

(12,769 posts)
15. +1 Rehabilitation and medical research for those cases where
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 09:51 AM
Jan 2014

it isn't yet possible is what I think is correct. Rehabilitate where possible and for those we can't currently rehabilitate, treat them to the best of our ability while securing them humanely, until we can safely do so.

Of course, that would mean lots of dollars spent on research for those we can't yet treat and an end to the stigmatizing we currently do on anyone who has ever been in prison. And, although it is another growing population, it is also even more frowned upon then the other ever-growing homeless population.

kydo

(2,679 posts)
25. I'm not advocating torture and vengeance
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 10:14 AM
Jan 2014

That was how I thought as a kid.

As an adult I am still against the death penalty. However there are people that should never be released into society. And figuring out a way to keep them separate from other prisoners and society is an extremely tricky issue.

Our prison system is messed up. There really should be two systems. One for people that are to be released after they have served their sentence. And one for those who are serving life without parole.

But keeping the individuals who are never to be released poses its own predicament. Locking a person into a cell for 23 hours a day is torture and that's what we currently do to most people on death row. It happens to many inmates not on death row.

Many people in prison have mental issues and shouldn't even be in prison.

All I know is I am against the death penalty and if I ever had to serve on a jury where the death penalty was being sought I would be the reason for the hung jury because I would never sentence any one to death.

Life without parole even in our imperfect system is currently the best option for now.

markpkessinger

(8,381 posts)
34. The true heart of the matter: "it dimishes us all."
Sun Jan 19, 2014, 02:26 AM
Jan 2014

I am reminded of what John McCain said about torture (in what is probably the only thing the old coot ever said that I agreed with):

It is not about who (the terrorists) are. It's about who we are.

Douglas Carpenter

(20,226 posts)
14. I always knew the death penalty was wrong. My parents always knew the death penalty was wrong
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 09:49 AM
Jan 2014

My Republican grandparents always knew the death penalty was wrong.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
20. There are very few people that I feel absolutely earned a death penalty
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 10:06 AM
Jan 2014

And those are people who never even get indicted....never face trial...never serve a day of penitence.

They live full and wealthy lives, and their children prosper and, usually, commit more crimes.

But the average murderer....acting in a fit of insane passion, poor, mentally unfit, framed by police maybe, ....not a good candidate.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
22. I hear you- and at moments of rage, feel the same way, but I just can't endorse the state killing
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 10:07 AM
Jan 2014

ever.

N_E_1 for Tennis

(9,593 posts)
21. On your side 110%....
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 10:07 AM
Jan 2014

The "logic" never made sense to me. Kill the killer. Then why not kill the killer of the killer?
And on and on.
It's a sign of a backwards and non-thoughtful society.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
24. Very easy to do away with the chances of executing innocents. Change the law.
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 10:13 AM
Jan 2014

Dot allow prosecutors to grandstand for the public by seeking the DP for any killing. Save the DP for what it should be used for; the most vile murders. And restrict it to those cases where there is no doubt as to the guilt of the accused. We all know of many cases like that. no more "beyond reasonable doubt". The Atlanta courthouse shooter comes to mind. There is NO DOUBT that this is the guy. There are plenty of cases like that. No circumstantial evidence, or voice anylysis or blood spatter, etc. Plenty of cases where the guy is red handed. Otherwise, no DP..If its not a deterrent then why do so many plead guilty to avoid it? It costs so much because of endless appeals for reasons having nothing to do with innocence. Just had a case in my area last year where the reason for the appeal was poor representation. Ok, I could see that. But it was filed 25 years after the case. Why did it take so long? Because they file single appeals and line them up purposely to take forever.
On the other hand, I think of Scott Peterson. We all know that case. I'm pretty sure he killed his wives. But thats not enough for the DP. There isnt a "smoking gun". Its all circumstantial. I wouldnt even put OJ on death row.
I know I'll never change anyones mind here, but thats my .02.

marmar

(76,985 posts)
28. I'm opposed to it, without equivocations.
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 10:24 AM
Jan 2014

IT'S STATE-SPONSORED MURDER, no matter how much lipstick is applied to it.


rock

(13,218 posts)
29. No government should have the power of life and death over its citizens
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 10:52 AM
Jan 2014

Remember, the Death Penalty refers to that power for the government. If you think they're just swell at handling their other powers, maybe you're for this one as well.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,085 posts)
31. I recall hearing about the Romanian revolution and Ceausescu's execution and feeling conflicted
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 01:00 PM
Jan 2014

I was happy for the people of Romania that they were embracing democracy, but I couldn't for the life of me understand why they felt they needed to kill their old leader as opposed to simply keeping him in prison. To me, it seemed so brutal and unnecessary, especially for a newly burgeoning democracy.

I was about 8 or 9 at the time, and ever since then I've just had a very strong opposition to the death penalty. It's probably the one issue that I see completely in black and white terms...To me, the death penalty is morally wrong, without exception.

SiobhanClancy

(2,955 posts)
32. I've always felt the same...
Sat Jan 18, 2014, 01:08 PM
Jan 2014

in fact,you expressed very eloquently my view of it. I'm totally against the death penalty,period. It should have no place in any society that considers itself to be civilized. I often wonder about the people who participate in an execution. What sort of people are they? What mindset do they have that allows them to do it? Is it all in a day's work to them,and do they go out for a burger and a beer afterward to unwind?
Here in Maine,the last execution was way back in the 1880s,and we seem to be getting by without it. I hope to live long enough to see it sent to the dustbin of history in the states that have it,which is where it belongs.

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