US ‘Will Stand With the People of Ukraine’ – Kerry

[dipsydoodle]

WASHINGTON, January 24 (RIA Novosti) – US Secretary of State John Kerry on Friday reiterated the United States’ support for Ukrainian protesters and said Washington is working with its allies and top officials in Kiev to halt the violence between security forces and government opponents.

“We will stand with the people of Ukraine,” Kerry said in a speech at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland.

Kerry added that the United States is coordinating with its allies in efforts to resolve the situation peacefully.

http://en.ria.ru/world/20140125/186896486/US-Will-Stand-With-the-People-of-Ukraine--Kerry-.html

Division in the Ukraine is roughly 50/50 , its largely a geographical division with , in simple terms, two of 4 quadrants being the "opposition", so presumably he means half the Ukraine. He made no mention of whether or not the US would help fund the €220 billion gap if they go with the EU trade deal.

[pampango]

1. Not exactly a 50-50 split. A plurality do prefer integration with the EU.

Plus Yanukovych himself ran on a pro-EU integration platform in the 2010 presidential election.

Regarding the European Union (EU) Yanukovych wants to create a free trade zone and visa-free travel between Ukraine and the EU countries. Once "Ukraine achieves those standards that currently exist in Europe", then the country should consider joining the EU. "But today this is an absolutely motivating, stimulating process we must aspire to", he stated in January 2010. In May 2011 Yanukovych stated that he will strive for Ukraine to join the EU. According to Yanukovych Ukrainian relations with "the West" are "a guide in both social and technical standards that we should strive for in creating a European life level in Ukraine". Yanukovych believes that the European integration of Ukraine is not an end in itself, but a way of implementation of the European standards in the state.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Yanukovych#Official_political_positions

People everywhere get mad when the sense that a politician has gone back on a campaign promise. (That is certainly true in the US and probably in the UK as well.)

There are certainly practical, financial considerations that smart economists and politicians might say should dictate the decision on whom to associate with. These practical considerations rarely are foremost in the minds of people who take to the streets.

“We have learned that we cannot live alone, at peace; that our own well-being is dependent on the well-being of nations far away. We have learned that we must live as men, and not as ostriches nor as dogs in the manger. We have learned to be citizens of the world, members of the human community.” - FDR.

[dipsydoodle]

4. Reply #3 was in reponse to you.

Posted in wrong place.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

7. You understand that the situation is about far more than just EU membership, right? nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

17. For your education.

http://www.businessinsider.com/understanding-euromaidan-2014-1

[dipsydoodle]

19. Sorry - I misread post.

Yes you are correct, Thanks for that link.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

20. NP. nt

[jakeXT]

2. We know ? /nt

[dipsydoodle]

3. Would take them at least 6 years to join the EU

if ever. Meanwhile they'd just have 90 day Schengen visas same as other tourists in the EU. Dont know if they grasp that or not.

[Adrahil]

5. So are you advocating they embrace Putin and his band of merry oligarchs? NT

[dipsydoodle]

8. I not advocating anything

but present they seem to have little choice.

The trade deal with the EU is currently impractical given that given that they do not the ability to attract the funds necessary for the transition over a number of years which is estimated to be c. 220 billion Euros. That amount is roughly equal to the entire bailout of Greece. Do not fall into the trap however of drawing other comparisons with Greece by way of loans subsequently written down or written off - that just would not happen in the case of the Ukraine whose main debt is owed to Russia.

They have only limited access to funds via bonds whatever other than through Russia. The IMF have already said that any loan would be conditional on a substantial increase in the price their consumers pay for gas which the Ukraine refused. The EU offered a gift of a billion Euros as an inducement which was also turned down.

The opposition have yet to provide any details of how they would manage the situation if they did in fact get into power and then agreed a trade deal with the EU. Mention was made in the early days of the possibility of a triple agreement between the Ukraine , Russia and the EU and maybe that would provide a solution.

[Adrahil]

9. It would seem like a multi-lateral agreement would be ideal, but...

... Didn't this whole thing kick off because Putin threatened the Ukraine if they dared to defy The Kremlin and signed the EU trade deal? Seems to me, we know who precipitated this crisis.

[pampango]

6. It would be a long, frustrating journey with no guarantee of success.

They still might prefer that to a shorter journey with a more problematic outcome.

[dipsydoodle]

10. Ultimately if they were to join the EU it would be conditional on them also joining the Euro.

However - joining the Euro is conditional on certain debt:GDP ratios being met..............that was what Greece spoofed.

Fat chance they'd have of meeting those ratios if they did enter a trade deal with the EU now - it would become an ever worsening situation.

[BelgianMadCow]

11. PLEASE READ "Support for the protesters" translates into support for these three parties:

Two out of the three opposition parties are closely allied to conservatives in the EU, and the third are neonazis.

The Batkivshchyna (Fatherland) party, still lead by the imprisoned Julia Timosjenko, has status of observer with the EPP, the coalition of christian democratic and conservative parties in Europe. It's represented in the streets and the talks by Arseniy Yatsenyuk.

The second party is UDAR (Head butt), lead by boxing champion Vitali Klitschko, who lives in Germany himself. This party is a creation of Merkel's CDU and its arch-conservative thinktank the Konrad Adenauer Fund.

The third party involved is Svoboda (Freedom), which is arguably the most active. They are extreme right-wingers and cooperate with the Front National in France. It's lead by Oleh Tyahnybok.

Isn't it grand how the West comes to the rescue in defense of the right to protest (never mind OWS or Blockupy or spanish protest laws that mirror those of Ukraine now)? Well, I'm not buying that narrative. I do support people of any persuasion protesting and trying to find redress for their grievances. And no, I'm no great fan of Russia.

As also posted (along with more background) in this thread.

[dipsydoodle]

12. Is one of those the Right whatever ?

The ones who wear red and black.

[BelgianMadCow]

13. They're all right, and Svoboda far right, yes.

But I can't immediately find whether the black and red is them. I thought so, but their party website for example doesn't show that.

[dipsydoodle]

15. I do know that the red & blacks are the nationalist party

and they are the ones held largely responsible for this weeks violence. A lot of them are alleged to be football hooligans.

Found it now : Right Sector movement http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25826238

[BelgianMadCow]

29. Ah yes, Sektor. I remembered reading about red & black on the Guardian, I think

but couldn't bring it up in a short time. Thanks for taking the trouble!

[geek tragedy]

14. as opposed to the dictator who has imposed martial law upon them?

Or is dictatorship okay so long as the skulls of people with the wrong ideology that are being cracked?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

18. Ridiculous oversimplification of the situation.

http://www.businessinsider.com/understanding-euromaidan-2014-1

People need to stop seeing the world--whether it political situations in countries like Ukraine, or positions of the Catholic Church--through the tunnel vision of American right/left ideology. You're only doing yourself a disservice.

[frwrfpos]

21. the parties that kerry "stands with"

Are far right and one is literally a neo nazi party..extremely xenophobic and the right wing protesters that kerry supports are violent as hell. Not suprising conaidering the history of the U.S. supporting right wing thuggery around the world.

Haiti,Columbia,Honduras,Iran,Ukraine,..the list is endless over decades.

[karynnj]

23. Kerry is NOT standing with any parties there - he is simply standing with the people

and - with other countries - trying to defuse this. Note that even this RUSSIAN source - and says it is an official Russian source - says; "Kerry added that the United States is coordinating with its allies in efforts to resolve the situation peacefully. "

[frwrfpos]

24. Kerry and the US need to stay the f out of Ukraine

They have no business meddling and supporting violent right wingers at the expense of an elected government. The right wing is pissed because Ukraine rightly sees Russia as a natural ally, and does not put up with violent neo nazis. Good for the government of Ukraine to put these assholes down hard and shame on Kerry for wanting to support these violent right wing extremists.

[karynnj]

22. Even in this RUSSIAN source, Kerry is speaking of international diplomacy

"Kerry added that the United States is coordinating with its allies in efforts to resolve the situation peacefully."

I assume part of that is that the Government did promise reforms and they made an offer not to prosecute most of the protesters. I could be wrong, but this may well be the fruit of what the international community did. Incidentally when this blew up before a few months ago, Kerry went to Moravia instead - they had aligned with the EU. One interesting comment he made when he was speaking of helping them export some of their wine that Russia usually bought but was barring was that there was no reasons not have strong economic ties to both EU and Russia. The idea that this does not have to be either or is interesting.

[dipsydoodle]

27. The suggestion of a triple agreement ws mentioned in the early days.

It would be a sensible outcome.

It would also make sense for the EU have an agreement with Russia because that would lock out the black economy in the Ukraine whereby EU goods sold to the Ukraine are then resold to Russia via the backdoor.

[karynnj]

28. I wonder if this MIGHT be the best circumstances to do that in generations

It really could be in the best interest of all countries. The UN/EU/US and Russia have engaged in more constructive negotiations than I remember happening ever before.

[1000words]

25. U.S. stood by the people of Egypt, too.

Twenty-nine of them died today in protest.

[seveneyes]

26. Most of the U.S. does not support Islamic law

Nor do most of the women and minorities in Egypt.