Trend-starting Texas drops algebra II mandate

[jsr]

http://www.chron.com/news/us/article/Trend-starting-Texas-drops-algebra-II-mandate-5174804.php

Trend-starting Texas drops algebra II mandate
By WILL WEISSERT, Associated Press | January 25, 2014

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) — Policy pop quiz: Does Texas - algebra II = success?

The state that started a trend by making high school students tackle algebra II is now abandoning the policy in a move praise by school districts for affording more flexibility. But some policy experts are nervous because nearly 20 states have followed Texas' lead in requiring the vigorous course.

Supporters say fewer course mandates give students more time to focus on vocational training for high-paying jobs that don't necessarily require a college degree, such as at Toyota's factory in San Antonio or oil and chemical giant BASF's facilities on the Gulf Coast.

But critics say Texas — often watched for education policy — is watering down its standards. They note that test scores and graduation rates have improved since the tougher curriculum was adopted in 2006.

[B2G]

1. I have never used geometry in my life

Can they drop that too and just teach kids basic math?

[SharonAnn]

2. Hmm, carpenters use it all the time. Just sayin'. We use it more than we think.

[B2G]

4. Then teach it as part of a vocational trade

Not everyone needs it. So many kids end up graduating without the basic math skills needed to balance a checkbook and make change.

[MineralMan]

8. Back when I was in school, we learned basic math early on.

Once we learned that, we could take those other classes. All knowledge is good. We also learned a foreign language in high school, along with other useful things. We managed to learn all that stuff in my 600 student high school in a rural agricultural community, along with chemistry, physics and other useful knowledge.

Why should our current high schoolers not be taught those things, too? Your idea makes no sense. If the students haven't learned basic math, then they shouldn't be taking those advanced classes. Instead, they should spend more time learning the basics. Do they not have different academic tracks in high school these days?

[B2G]

10. They do, but many of them require advance math courses

that many of them most likely will never use.

My kids didn't excel at math. Both had career aspirations that didn't require advanced math skills but since they were in college prep, they were required. All those classes did was frustrate the hell out of them and negatively impact their GPAs.

[MineralMan]

35. Well, I'm sorry they had difficulty with math.

However, college prep tracks generally include at least Algebra and geometry. So does college, even if you're a Liberal Arts major. Basic stuff. There were kids in my advanced math classes who struggled, too. However, our advanced math teacher (just one for the whole school) would assign one of the kids, like me, who found the subject easy, to help them. I helped a couple of other students "get it" in those classes. Once they did, it was easier for them. A teacher who is responsible for a full class of students can't always teach down to the lowest level. My teacher had a solution for that.

Anyhow, not every college prep student had to take trig and calculus. I think there were only 10 kids in those classes when I took them. They were optional. But Algebra and geometry were mandatory.

That pattern was common throughout my high school, and even in elementary school. Teachers would routinely ask the kids who were excelling to assist the ones who weren't, and it worked very well. Thinking back, I suppose that was an administrative initiative, but it worked like gangbusters.

[MillennialDem]

36. Algebra II is not "advanced math" more than reading "Of Mice and Men" is advanced

literature.

[Aerows]

47. Math is a "doing" discipline

You can't just look at it and get it in five minutes. You really have to do your homework if you want to excel at it. If you don't the first few weeks of class, which are easy, you are pretty much doomed for the rest of the year because it all builds on itself.

[hfojvt]

49. that sounds like an awful lot

In my school, graduating in 1980 - science was required in 7th and 8th grade. I, of course, took the elective - not required - 9th grade science, and then also in high school, physics, chemistry, and advanced chemistry. Biology was required in the 10th grade. I did NOT take the elective advanced biology.

For math, the only requirement was Algebra 1 in the 9th grade. About sixty of us were on the math advanced track and took algebra 1 in 8th grade and algebra 2 in 9th grade.

No foreign language was required, but I took the optional 4 years of German. Almost completely useless, even for my trip to Germany in 2001.

I also took all the electives for fast track math - geometry in 10th grade, trig in 11th and senior math (which was not calculus or pre-calculus, it was probability and matrices, which was kinda college sophomore level math). Some people were on the slower track and still took all the math they could. Thus I had juniors and seniors in my geometry class and seniors in my trig class, and also some seniors in my chemistry class that I took as a junior.

But for some reason I took physics as a senior and had some juniors in that class.

I skipped the computer science class. Probably wouldn't have had time for it. I also ended up taking an extra two hours of school through the three years. We had an early schedule 8 to 215 and a late schedule 9 to 315. For three of six semesters, including my entire senior year, I came in early and left late.

What a waste of a life.

Nobody respects ME as the "learned janitor". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elihu_Burritt

[Deep13]

27. necessary training for logical and rational thinking.

I use at least basic geometry all the time. Can't say I use advanced algebra, but I appreciate the mental training it provided.

[sammytko]

84. That is just adding and subtracting

And since they teach negative number theory, no one should ever be overdrawn.

It's more self control in managing your funds than the fundamentals of adding and subtracting.

[OmahaBlueDog]

9. Carpenters do use practical geometry, but they never have to spend hours writing proofs

Unless you're going to be a logician or mathematician, one has little use for high school geometry.

[MillennialDem]

38. Geometry proofs are easy as pie. And Algebra II has zero or rarely any proofs.

[OmahaBlueDog]

40. I'm glad they were easy for you. For many others among us -- not so much. (nt)

[MillennialDem]

66. I can see the point of greatly reducing or eliminating the proofs in Geometry, but I'm sick

and tired of people treating high school math as esoteric and something one does not need to learn.

For a person with a math or many other STEM degrees, calculus is the BEGINNING POINT. How would you feel if the reading / writing requirements were not even at the starting point for something with an English degree?

Yes I get it; math is not easy for some. But such a coddling attitude and dismissing the uses of math is wrong.

[alcibiades_mystery]

95. Everyone thinks they suck at math but excel at writing...it's usually the opposite

[ret5hd]

3. And machinists.

[MineralMan]

5. I use it all the time, and so do a lot of other people.

I use trigonometry from time to time, too. It's very useful in things like the building trades. I learned all of those in high school, and am glad I did. Now Calculus and differential equations aren't something I use much, even though I learned them when I thought I wanted to be an engineer. They're good to know if you like reading scientific papers and stuff, but most people don't do that. They aren't taught in most high schools, though.

[OmahaBlueDog]

11. Trig is very practical, but it doesn't get taught in HS now until pre-calculus

They touch on it briefly in Algebra II.

[MineralMan]

15. Really? Hmm. In 1962, I took an entire year of trig in HS.

Advanced Alegra & Calculus came in my senior year in 1963. I was in the college prep track. Not all students took those classes. Freshman year was algebra. Sophomore year was geometry, starting with basic proofs, of all things. For science classes, freshman through senior year, it was biology, chemistry, physics, and ecological science. That was the college prep curriculum, although not everyone took all of those.

I tested out of all of those classes when I went to college...sort of the Advanced Placement of the day.

[dsc]

75. that is just plain not true

geometry has trig in and has had it for years. And under the new math standards algebra 2 has even more trig in it.

[OmahaBlueDog]

106. OBkid1 just took pre-calc. It was her first serious exposure to trig.

They touched on it briefly in Al 2. If they did any in Geometry, she never mentioned it to me.

[dsc]

109. I am teaching Math 3 this semester (it is the replacement for alg 2) and

I will be covering both right triangle and unit circle trig as well as trig identities.

[OmahaBlueDog]

119. I'm not doubting what you're saying. Maybe it's a state by state variance?

?

[dsc]

123. It will be coming your way soon

under common core

[abelenkpe]

17. Calculus was rough but I was glad to have taken it

Could never get more than a B in that class though. Secretly broke down in tears over it once or twice, too. Physics....now that's where it gets fun

[etherealtruth]

29. Same here ... had to take many semesters of it in college

I am glad I took all I did, but will admit multivariable calculus almost "killed" me

[abelenkpe]

12. Um, really?

You never sew, or build or create anything? Geometry is the easiest, most useful and basic course possible. I can understand not wanting to do calculus but geometry? What do you do that geometry is totally unnecessary?

[B2G]

19. I'm an IT project manager

Before that, I was a Sr. Business Analyst. Started out as a Social Worker.

I honestly can't think of anything I've used Geometry for in my professional life.

I have no problem with basic Geometry, Algebra, etc. being required. I think that's valuable. It's advanced courses that I'm talking about. Which was the point of the OP...they're not phasing out basic Algebra as a requirement.

[abelenkpe]

24. My younger brother couldn't even pass basic Algebra

I can see phasing out higher math as a requirement as long as it is still offered for those with the skill and desire to take it. Sorry, not using geometry seems so foreign to me but I'm an artist and animator and use it everyday. It was just difficult to imagine a day without.

[B2G]

26. I would have benefitted far more

in taking accounting and the associated math skills, but that's not required at all. Go figure.

[Igel]

86. There are two parts to geometry.

The first is the facts. Kids memorize those. Those are "useful" if you're building something. A triangle's angles add up to 180 degrees. Interior angles. All that stuff.

Then there's the important part. We hear how people can't reason things through, can't think logically, can't construct an argument.

The core of geometry is starting with a few simple propositions that are assumed true. Then you use logic, knowledge of the axioms and of how you've put axioms together so far to derive conclusions to build more and greater conclusions. It is where a lot of kids are exposed to logic.

The downside to a lot of fact-based, low-level thinking is that it focuses on the memorization part of the topic. Kids like memorization. It's easy. You can cram the facts in and lose them a week later--minimal effort and minimal education in the game that they call "school". Even kids who want to major in a subject want to learn as little as possible; often these days they want the piece of paper, because if the paper says it's true that they've mastered something it must be true. (They obviously weren't paying attention in geometry.)

You may not use the facts of geometry a lot. But if they taught you right and you understood the goal of the course you'd have a decent ability to think logically and rigorously.

[X_Digger]

16. I bet you have, and don't even realize it.

Ever laid out a planting bed in your yard and used the 3-4-5 method to make sure it's square?

Ever calculated the area of fabric needed for new curtains? Or fertilizer for your yard? Square footage for flooring?

Geometry isn't all proofs and compasses, arcs and tangents.

[B2G]

20. Yes, see my post above

[X_Digger]

30. No fair changing the premise in mid-stream :P

In your professional life != in your life.

[B2G]

31. Sorry, I got carried away.

Lol!

[pnwmom]

62. Ever hung wallpaper?

My math hating sister used a lot of geometry when remodeling her kitchen, and didn't think about it at all. Her math phobia only occurred in actual math classes.

[Downwinder]

21. Geometry is not math it is logic.

Teaches how to assess and address a problem, organize thoughts and prove the obvious.

[WinkyDink]

23. I suspect you have.

[struggle4progress]

33. People lived for hundreds of thousands of years without electricity or indoor plumbing

You're free to choose never to use geometry, just as you would be free to chose never to use electricity or indoor plumbing

[B2G]

34. Um, OK. nt

[Sgent]

42. Geometry

was the only class I had in HS that required formal logic. Computer science (not offered at my HS in the stone ages) would be a reasonable substitute, but other than a philosophy class I don't know where else in the curriculum you would get it.

On top of which, geometry (and probably more so trig) is a skill reasonable to expect of a HS graduate.

[DrDan]

45. I used it just a couple of days ago

needed to cut a shelf diagonally to fit into a corner of my garage. One side was 39 inches. I used the Pythagorean Theorem to determine the hypotenuse.

Fits perfectly.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

52. If you can identify kids who won't, sure.

Most people never use most of what they learn in school.

If you can identify which particular bits of knowledge each child is going to use, you could save a lot of time.

But, in practice, letting/making children specialise too young is going to have all sorts of negative effects.

[hollysmom]

55. you do use it, you just don't know it.

1. how much carpet do you need to buy, how do pieces of a quilt fit together, how much paint do you need to buy, planing a garden and fencing in that garden, driving directions, etc.
Algebra is used all over as well. As far as I know Algebra is only required for College prep courses, not all vocational. Geometry and algebra also help you learn how to think and do logic. How to identify a false argument. Yes, some people have problems with it, but they will still have to learn how to balance a check book and figure out their mortgage.

[Igel]

87. My response is the opposite.

"When am I going to use this?"

"Well, maybe every day, maybe never. If you can tell me what you'll be doing at 3:20 PM on May 14, 2053, and make it clear that you really do know exactly what you'll be doing, I'll let you slide. But if you know it, you'll probably use it and probably not recognize it. But I can guarantee you that if you don't know it you'll never use it."

Years after figuring I'd never need to use my calculus I was taking some standardized educator's test and froze when looking at a math problem. I knew there was a simple geometry formula to find the answer--didn't have an inspiring geometry teacher. I drew a blank. So I imposed a grid system, derived the equations for the shape, and integrated over the curve.

[hollysmom]

100. that doesn't make any sense

geometry is used all the time as the thoughts in axioms show the rules of logic. I know some people just memorized them but I have a sucky memory, so I just redeveloped them each time after remembering a bit about them.

I had a friend who said she was just a girl and she would never need this stuff, so after I hit her a few times (lightly) ad told her she was insulting me, I sat down and explained how to look at things. I worked with her twice a week just because she was my friend, and she sailed through that course and I got ahead of my own course which did nothing but confuse the teacher.

After college I learned sailing and it was a blast, but the navigation course was all geometry and algebra 2, I was taking a captains license course and another couple was along with their 10 year old son, by the end of the trip he was so psyched for math class after sitting with me while I was determining our course in a pea soup fog, you would not believe it.

You can believe math is not for you, just as others don't believe they need courses in music or advanced English. But your life would not be richer for it. I do not have a great musical ear but can recognize the Valkyrie when I hear it. I may not be a great speller, but it sure helps when you choose the right word from spellcheck. When it came to remodeling our house, I did the plumbing and the woodwork, yes, I had a wood working course in high school and took a night course in plumbing because of the fear of something breaking inthe middle of the night, so I can wield a soldering iron if ever called to do it. People should be challenged to learn more, not less.

[pnwmom]

60. Should they require logic instead? Or a class teaching spatial skills?

Geometry teaches both.

Many students who don't do well in Algebra or other math classes find their stride in Geometry.

[defacto7]

77. You use it every time you open your eyes.

It's an exercise that makes a person a better thinker and better able to understand the intricacies of everyday life. That is what education is about, not just teaching a skill. Otherwise that logic points towards everyone knowing one thing, which is certainly what the owners of us all would like.

[bhikkhu]

80. I use it every day at work as a mechanic

and I'll never get over how people think its useless. I'm always doing things around the house that benefit from an understanding of geometry as well.

Perhaps you never used it because you never really learned it? That's one of the things with people who don't learn things - if you don't know it, you generally don't know how to use it, and then you think its of no use. To me that's more of an argument for requiring education, as it gives people the opportunity to learn things, to make themselves more effective as people, and to enrich their lives, in ways they would never even suspect if uneducated.

One of the big turning points in my life was going back to college at 40. After two years finishing a bachelors degree, I think differently, and it essentially made my mind a more effective tool and increased my capacity for understanding. I can look back on the years before I went back and just wish I had known then, for those 20 adult years, what I know now...

[bluestate10]

113. You use it all the time when you drive, park your car, manage furniture placement in

your home. You just don't realize it. Geometry has kept you alive and made your life more comfortable.

[Gravitycollapse]

115. You use it abstractly pretty much every waking second of your life.

Probably a good portion of your dreaming life as well.

[a la izquierda]

122. I use geometry a lot...

Algebra, ah, no.
I'm a historian as a professional, but geometry helps me with practical things- size of gardening beds, amount of paint for a wall, etc.

[tenderfoot]

126. I haven't played dodgeball since gym - they should dump that too.

What a stupid comment.

[RetroLounge]

133. Nor logic, apparently.

RL

[Ms. Toad]

137. Geometry is not a required for graduation

In many places, Algebra II is.

[Hissyspit]

140. Yes, you have.

It's not just about "using it." It's about teaching your brain to think. And about understanding it when others use it. And...

[liberal_at_heart]

6. I don't know if my autistic son will be able to make it to algebra II or not but I like the idea

of the flexibility being there so that if he can't do it, he isn't punished for it. My son was pushed and pushed and pushed all through middle school. Now he's in high school and they are having to go back and teach him all the things he never actually learned in middle school while they were so busy pushing him. All that time wasted. Three years wasted because of a lack of flexibility.

[B2G]

13. Exactly.

Not all kids excel in all subjects, but they are forced into canned tracts.

[ChisolmTrailDem]

7. "They" (ALEC, Koch Brothers, religious idiocy, etc.) are slowly but surely dumbing us down and

driving us to the poor house.

We are being prepared to be low-wage, modern-day serfs, and we will clamor for the bad treatment in order to secure even a few crumbs and we will be dumb as sticks.

That's the big picture.

[onehandle]

14. Burger flipping is the mainstay of Perry's economy.

Don't need no fancy book learnin' fer that.

[HappyMe]

18. Just teach 'em to say

'you want fries with that' instead.

[WinkyDink]

82. You could say it in Old English or French and you still wouldn't need to use Algebra II. Algebra I

and Geometry, yes.

[WinkyDink]

22. Ok, I had up to and including Calculus. I became an English teacher. Alg II? Yeah, never used.

[MissB]

25. That's awful. Our school requires four credits of math to graduate (4 years).

If a kid starts algebra in high school, then they'll hit Algebra 2 in their junior year. They'd still need one more year, and if they wanted to avoid pre-calculus (which wraps in the traditional trigonometry) then they could take statistics their senior year.

But our feeder school offers algebra and geometry in middle school, so many of our freshman students start off in Algebra 2 (though my kids took that in middle school). If anything, it'd be helpful to have more on-campus options besides calculus, because a good chunk of kids end up finishing that before senior year.

Our high school has always offered two options for a diploma - the state's version and the school's version. Kids mostly choose the school's version because it's tougher.

[Deep13]

28. What this country needs are people who know even less math than they do now. nt

[DrDan]

46. exactly - we need to dumb down the population

[frazzled]

32. Whether you ever use such courses in life or in a job ...

is beside the point.

Studying a subject--whether it is European History or Algebra II or Advanced Biology or Restoration Literature--sharpens your mind and teaches you how to think more acutely and more broadly.

Our society needs more of us to be capable thinkers. Whether you become a chef or a politician, a plant manager or a scientist, it doesn't hurt to exercise your brain muscles with some Algebra II (even if you stink at it).

[RC]

37. The problem is that they teach math as isolated problems, that have little to do with each other.

Last edited Sat Jan 25, 2014, 05:25 PM - Edit history (1)

As a mental exercises, unrelated to the real world. Use that checker board to prove certain equations.Take the kids outside to find out how tall the flag pole is. Plot out the length of the shadow to tell local time. In other words, teach applied math, so the kids have something to anchor their knowledge to. All to often math is taught in such a way as the problems have no practical use outside the classroom.


Edited to add: I found series/parallel resister problems fun.
Finding the missing current, voltages and resistances.

[B2G]

39. Excellent observation. nt

[Nevernose]

43. That's a well-known problem among math teachers

Especially with the new common core, which requires more "word problems."

Many of the kids simply can't do them. A raw equation is no big deal, but give kids a real world problem in which they'd have to assemble the equation themselves and it's like all hell breaks loose. It's an issue that starts small in elementary and is an avalanche by high school.

Of course, I'm not a big fan of most math instruction anyway.

[RC]

50. The math teachers are required to teach math as word problems.

Or just as stand alone math problems. I taught applied math in a math heavy high school electronics class. One day as I was explaining a new problem on the white board, I noticed the room behind me lighting up. Most of that class had had the same problem in their algebra class that morning. They all had trouble getting it then.
I called their algebra teacher after class. She told me she was required to teach math the way she did. That she was not allowed to teach applied math. And that it was sometime frustrating for her because she knew teaching applied math stayed with the kids better, because they then had a better understanding of the math involved in solving the problem.

[lumberjack_jeff]

129. I very much prefer word problems. Always have.

In fact, constructing my own word problem around a formula was the general way I would internalize the abstraction.

[Nevernose]

135. Me, too

But I'm an English teacher. I got through college by taking science courses like Chemistry for Nurses and Bio for Nurses, because actual, real world problems made way more sense to me. Instead of regular college algebra, I took something like Teaching Math, wherein I learned how to teach math (through algebra) rather than memorize a bunch of formulae.

I know that the students on every school I've ever worked do all right on "normal" math on the standardized tests, and the massive failure rate is always in the word problem section. It's a higher order of thinking, one that apparently most kids are not good at and one that I don't think gets taught very well.

Also, it's been my experience that math teachers, generally speaking of course, are more reluctant to change than other departments.

[PADemD]

51. You just reminded me of one of our HS physics classes

where the teacher had us calculate the amount of horse power it would take us to run up a flight of stairs. At the time, I thought, when am I ever going to use this? Never have.

[RC]

56. I would find something like that interesting.

And that problem can be broke down into several separate problems.

[Igel]

88. Some people never have to use the ideas of force, work, and power.

Or deal with anything in horsepower.

They never have politicians talk about energy policy or deal with automative mileage requirements.

They never buy household appliances labeled in hp or in watts.

What happens is often what the teacher *needs* to get through is boring, simplistic, and doesn't appear related to what's going on in the world. By the time the teacher drags the students, struggling to avoid learning as much as possible and keeping their understanding at as simple a level as possible, through all the basics and can get to useful, interesting stuff the teacher's out of time. It's necessary to move on.

My kids ask about that kind of thing all the time, and I say that if they resisted in elementary school as much as they did in high school they'd be learning phonics and sight words in 10th grade and asking, "This reading crap, we keep studying it but when are we ever going to use it?"

[MindPilot]

70. Word problems try but often fail.

The idea is to develop the skill of seeing mathematical relationships and finding unknowns within those relationships, but the problems are oftentimes are absurd to the point students dismiss them. "Two trains leave Detroit at 1:00 am; if the westbound train is traveling 60 mph, how old is the conductor's granddaughter when they reach Chicago?"

Or as I found out in a recent class assume knowledge some may not have. The problem was about the speed of two airplanes, one flying into the wind, one with a tailwind. This particular student really didn't know enough about airplanes to understand how wind speed and direction affect the speed of an airplane relative to the ground, and couldn't set up the problem.

Electronics and navigation are both very good vehicles for teaching basic practical math, but the students still have to have a a basic understanding of what they are and how those thing work or they become just more words and squiggly lines.

[RC]

73. Bingo!

I have found that people's knowledge varies all over the place, regardless of the subject, their education or education level.
You can't ass/u/me.

[lumberjack_jeff]

131. Now the student understands that objects flying into the wind go slower.

Probably an observation that the student should have understood by 3rd or 4th grade, but it doesn't invalidate the need for the lesson. I wouldn't call it a fail at all.

All useful math is practical.

[Heywood J]

125. The answer is Satan. (NT)

[RC]

132. Pseudonym for Conservative?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

41. Excessive math requirements are just setting otherwise successful students up to fail

The extent to which I have used algebra in my adult life peaks somewhere around Grade 8 curriculum.

[Fumesucker]

48. That's also true for plenty of other subjects, like English for example

Trying to find the hidden meaning in books like The Scarlet Letter, Moby Dick or Silas Marner confuses the hell out of more literally minded people who just don't see things that way.

I loved to read from a very young age but I loathed English lit because my mind just didn't work that way. I read a bunch of classics on my own, a lot of Dickens, Poe, Twain and so on but successfully finding the meanings the English teacher wanted me to see just wasn't happening.

Math and science on the other hand were easy for me.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

57. People can bullshit English by using the words journey and struggle enough

It is pretty tough to bullshit math.

[Fumesucker]

61. Literally minded people who are good at math and science often aren't very good bullshitters

Comes with the literal mindset to an extent.

[exboyfil]

92. Then they are wasting their time as well

My oldest daughter is not doing any literature past the 10th grade. I am ok with that. She will have two years of engineering done while in High School. She is a very good communicator (both written and with video documentaries). As I have gotten older I have changed my opinions on classical literature. I used to be in favor of it, but I am not entirely sure what an individual gets out of it now. I read mostly non-fiction including Scientific American cover to cover. I occasionally get out my Shakespeare, but I find it is a far better experience to watch it than read it.

I think in English class you should write about things that are important and read a wide variety of non-fiction including history, science, and politics to become a better citizen. Why should we expect literature of the past to be superior to that of today. That is not true with science for example. You can honor and recognize the achievements of the past, but you don't learn about evolution from "On the Origin of Species".

If you enjoy the literature that is one thing, but as the language and approaches continue to change, that enjoyment becomes less and less. Is the work to reach the level of understanding to bridge 400+ years worth the effort given the other academic things which need to be accomplished? How many times do you want to hear "rosy-fingered dawn"?

[bhikkhu]

99. But what is excessive? I don't think its safe to assume the future will be dumb

and that kids can safely ignore math, because that won't be as necessary. I tend to agree with the gradual ramping up of math standards, as the world has gradually ramped up its application of mathematics.

As I tell my kids - there is very little in our environment that hasn't been studied, engineered, optimized, or otherwise manipulated by math. Living in a world surrounded by things one doesn't (or can't) understand is not something I would recommend as a policy.

When I was in school we stopped at Algebra 1. I retook it in college some time later, where it was much more involved, then went on to learn geometry on my own. When my older daughter went into trigonometry I learned it from her textbook so that I could help her with the homework. What I found is that all those were fairly easy, as I have a problem-solving oriented job and use numbers and geometry regularly.

Its hard to say what is excessive, but I don't think we're there yet; kids can learn if they are taught properly, and it will be to their long-term benefit.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

101. I'm not saying it shouldn't be taught,

I'm saying it shouldn't be a graduation requirement.

There is math and there is math. I found university economics courses less daunting than much of the math I encountered in K-12. And that is probably above and beyond what most people will encounter in their working lives.

[liberal_at_heart]

102. you know what would be more useful than algebra II? Personal finance.

I'm not saying they shouldn't teach algebra II, but I agree with you that it shouldn't be a graduation requirement. My son is a special education student who may or may not make it all the way to algebra II. What is more sorely lacking from our math education in my opinion is how to handle your own personal finances. People have no idea how to handle their money and they sure as hell don't understand how to save it and invest it to make it grow for retirement.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

103. No kidding, I used to work on bankruptcies

I encountered everyone from baggage handlers to professionals of every description who couldn't have told you their after-tax income or living expenses if you put a gun to their head.

[shenmue]

44. Sigh

[Codeine]

54. And a big ol' chunk of DU rallies 'round the notion.

"I ain't never done used no math never!! Ain't nobody what ain't scientists need to learn that algebra bullshit!"

[Igel]

105. Yup.

We like science and progress.

But if it's more than 9th grade, if we can't use it in the future--say, by this coming Thursday--then it's really a waste of time.

And people miss the point: What's needed in American education isn't a one-size-fits-all, make everything that's challenging either required or optional. Too many kids at age 16 have no clue; they need to be pushed into academic challenges when their chief concern is being popular or showing that they're independent. Psycho-social trumps academic and long-range planning for many of them.

What's needed is a way to separate out kids. Some really lack so much background that they'll have great trouble catching up, if they even want to. Some lack the mental muscle to handle certain kinds of thinking, or thinking at a complex level. Some just like auto mechanics, construction, work that doesn't require the same kind of abstract education. Have a track for them to learn career/vocational skills. But make it clear that if you follow that track college will be a stretch when you graduate.

Those that can handle academic rigor need to be pushed into it if that's where their future probably lies.

As for academic success in algebra I and II, for most kids it's not a lack of intelligence. It's a lack of effort. If you think it's too hard, if you think it's pointless, you don't put in the effort, the thoughtful or meaningful practice, and so you get low grades. (Recent research basically shows a very strong correlation between effort and grade, and slight correlation with standard measures of IQ. And one of the glories of math is that it's not reliant on most background knowledge.)

[HockeyMom]

53. Replace it with Creationism

and Bible Studies. Spare the rest of the Nation with your textbooks.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

58. Algebra is boring enough without adding a II to it.

[Fumesucker]

59. Every single subject has students who think it's either boring as hell or impossibly abstruse

[DrDan]

63. exactly - why are schools requiring students to take the "boring" subjects

they should only require subjects that are interesting.

good point!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

64. Indeed.

[MillennialDem]

67. For you maybe. Reading novels are boring to me. Math and reading scientific and technical

manuals are interesting to me.

[mathematic]

68. On the contrary. The mathematics of semigroups can be very interesting.

It's ever-surprising what you can prove about a set and its associative binary operator.

[Dr. Strange]

108. Yeah, but what about people who try really hard to understand algebra...

but just aren't Abel?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

65. Let's just give everyone a coloring book and a diploma.

Ain't no need for book learnin' I ain't never dun used no math in real life.


There are other skills acquired by taking subjects you don't like. Skills like learning how to persevere through something you may not initially get, or critical thinking skills.....

[swilton]

69. First they cut the music and art

Then they cut the foreign languages........................

Now they cut the math....................

You're right - let's just give everyone a coloring book and go home.

Vocational training????hmmmm..................could this be related to our new and ever globalizing service economy???

[ForgoTheConsequence]

71. Well if we cut math....

Then we have an excuse to hire more foreign workers for 9/hr.


Weren't we just hearing how important STEM subjects were?

[ChisolmTrailDem]

74. Thread win! ^^^^ nt

[sadoldgirl]

72. Without math you cannot understand a lot of problems

If you cut that very important subject for kids, how can you understand really what the NSA is capable of? It is the lack of math that allows the creationists and the climate change deniers to succeed in convincing people of their arguments. At least in mho.

[nadinbrzezinski]

76. Let's continue to water down education

yup, that is the ticket.

And my lord, if a kid is going to become an electrician (see no college here), guess what? He will use algebra. If he joins the navy, in certain rates, he will use algebra... I could go on.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

78. There are lots of terrible math teachers.

Especially if they aren't math majors.

I had a stupid woman for Geometry and Algebra II.
She would explain a problem twice, and then say, "You oughta know that."

I asked the other kids to help me, that made As, and they would not.
So I was well and truly FUCKED.
Result: D in Geometry, F in Algebra II.

In college I had to have 6 hours of math for my B.A. First 3 hours was Logic, taught in the Philosophy department. Then I took retread algebra which was called "Jolly Numbers" disparagingly. Had some trig on a circle with radians. Flunked it.

Then I took Linear Algebra and begged the professor for a C so I could get that other 3 hours math credit. The professor's son was my boyfriend's best friend. They were both math majors. And that's why he passed me.

So I had a horrible time into college, because of the witch in high school that wouldn't explain things.

I had an aunt with a chemistry degree from Incarnate Word that helped me with high school chemistry, but there wasn't anyone in my family that could help me with math.

[dsc]

104. the person with the chem degree ought to have been able to help you in algebra 2

most high schools like you to have taken alg 2 before chem because of the math used in chem.

[defacto7]

79. Education is about being better than you are.

It's about pushing yourself to learn how to learn in life.

It's not about pacifying and acknowledging what you are good at or already know.

[Warpy]

81. Dumb em down

they'll fill the wingnut churches and vote Republican forever.

Kids who went far in math are going to do a lot better at those Toyota factories than kids who didn't.

[FreeJoe]

83. My kids live in Texas and are required to take calculus in high school (nt)

[SheilaT]

85. Really? What high school?

Is this the same Texas that according to the OP is eliminating Algebra II?

[FreeJoe]

107. It's more of a family requirement than a state requirement

But my oldest intends to go to the district's Science Academy, which does require it.

[SheilaT]

116. That's rather different from

the most of the discussion here.

[dem in texas]

89. I attended Texas schools in the 1950's

I took two years of algebra and 1 year of geometry. I loved math and went on to college to study accounting. Math teaches you to reason and problem solving. That said, the most useful math class I ever took was as a college freshman and the class was Mathematics of Finance, which was fancy name for old fashioned business math.

[Harmony Blue]

90. Algebra II is integral in understanding higher levels of math

without it most college students fail often if they don't take it before attempting a higher level math course.

[liberal_at_heart]

91. why does it have to forced on students is what I don't understand. Maybe instead of

forcing it we could do a little more encouraging. Get the school counselor and the teachers and parents more involved in encouraging students to take high level math who are good at it. There are many students mine included who struggle with simple math such as multiplication and division. Why must they be forced to take high level math? Why can't we treat students like the individuals they are with individual strengths and weaknesses? I will never stop fighting for my son's right to learn at his own pace. He deserves to have someone fighting for him. Sometimes it seems like I am in the fight all alone. I feel like democrats are education elitists who only care about those students whom things come easy to them. They don't seem to care about those who need to take things slower and learn a little differently than the masses. It's no wonder I don't feel like I fit into the democratic party anymore. I feel so alone, but I will never stop. My son has something most students with high IQs don't have. He has determination and a little something they call grit. He can roll with the punches and keep on going. He never gives up, and research has shown that this gets a person further in life than a high IQ. So, whether he ever does well in school or not I know he will be just fine.

[hunter]

93. Ordinary high school math is dangerous to the Powers-That-Be.

They know it. They don't want you to know it.

[JCMach1]

111. Math = revolution...

ummmm

[Turbineguy]

94. Yeah,

make the kids watch an hour of Fox News instead. That will help them stay ignorant.

[JCMach1]

96. Most colleges and Uni's have to remediate students even with the requirement... it is not unusual

to see failure rates of 50%, or more for the beginning algebra course...


EVEN within schools of engineering...

So yeah, our country is doing a BAD JOB overall teaching algebra... a second year of it isn't going to make that big of a difference for many students.

[liberal_at_heart]

98. thank you. There is a bigger problem here than requirements.

Our entire education system is broken but many democrats don't want to acknowledge that.

[JCMach1]

110. Exactly, when has anyone focused on how algebra is taught?

I was a kid who got put into the advance math in HS, because I was advanced in all my other classes... However, my brain works a bit differently. I can get even the most advanced math concepts. However, it takes me a bit longer to learn them. HS algebra is quick and hodgepodge... lacking in focus.

Meanwhile, while I was floundering in my HS Algebra, I was writing computer programs with complex equations... Something the 'A' students in algebra could never handle.

Even years later, I had to learn research level statistics for graduate level linguistics and language students. I aced those courses because they were based in practical applications.

It would be nice if HS Mathematics embraced more the diverse, and the practical ...

[liberal_at_heart]

112. I wish I could unlock my son's brain. He is autistic and has a hard time with math at school.

At home he spots patterns and does a lot of math in his head. He does have dysgraphia. This may have a lot to do with why he struggles with school work. I have to find a way to unlock his brain. If we could do that I bet he would be fantastic at math.

[kairos12]

97. Lack of math skills furthers the one percent goal of preventing the working class

from calculating their way too crappy wages. How convenient...and profitable for them.

[Harmony Blue]

114. Let me also add that Algebra II

is a gateway course to the higher levels of math. I took Algebra II as a junior in high school as it was required. However, Analysis of Functions (a.k.a. Pre-Calc/Trig) was optional but I chose to take it because it did better prepare me for Calculus in college.

Algebra II material is actually review of ratios, proportions, rates, fractions, percentages...basically 8th grade math with Algebra concepts thrown in. Algebra II also sets up understanding of the different types curves. For example, the difference between an exponential function and a power function. How log functions work, etc.

Algebra II is critical to anyone in a field of Arts and Sciences for the most part. If you can't do graphs, read graphs, make graphs, not know a linear equation or how to find the y intercept...your success in college diminishes greatly. Statistics is important to psychology majors, social science majors, natural science majors. Business courses are loaded with Algebra II concepts as well as Physics and Chemistry.

As for those not seeking a collegiate degree, Algebra II tends to be the highest math that they are required to take. I would not lower the bar and say don't take Algebra Ii because the skills you learn in Algebra II are critical in the real world. If you work at a super market and need to place orders or do averages for produce, general merchandise, or grocery you are not doing just Algebra I or Geometry concepts but also Algebra II.

[SheilaT]

117. For all of those who are supporting the idea

that kids just shouldn't be required to take courses they find difficult or boring, you need to understand that the logical outcome would be to require no more than a fourth grade education.

The fact that somewhere around half of all kids starting college have to take some kind of remedial coursework is stunning. It's a combination of low high school graduation requirements, low achievement on the part of the students themselves, and sometimes poorly taught classes.

I had the amazing good fortune to take a math program in high school in the early 60's that was called UICSM - University of Illinois Committee on School Mathematics. It was absolutely amazing in the way it taught the students to figure out and prove everything. I did reasonably well through the first two and a half years, but into the third year we were in calculus, and I just wasn't ready for it. Some thirty years later I was needing to take more math to complete a college degree, and after having taken no math (beyond a simple statistics for social sciences in the interim) I tested into algebra II. The first two weeks were a struggle, but every day things I'd learned three decades earlier came bubbling up into my brain and I got a B. Then it was college algebra, the level I had to achieve for my degree, and I got an A. I was on such a roll that I then took statistics (another A) and calculus (a B). When I was taking the calculus class and loving it, I kept on marveling to the various math teachers at the junior college that I was now in my late 40's and doing so well. To a person they said, "Oh, Sheila. What people don't realize is that math is developmental, and a lot of 16 or 17 year olds aren't ready for calculus. Give it a couple more years and they will be. As you are."

Note that they were very specific about calculus.

I am of the opinion that math at least through algebra II, at least two years of lab science (Biology, Chemistry, Physics, or Physical Science) and a couple of years of a foreign language ought to be required to graduate high school. The other alternative is to simply let students take the GED whenever they want and get a leaving certificate that way.

And it's not so much whether you'll actually use the specifics of whatever math you learn, or speak to someone in Spanish, or whatever. It's the intellectual discipline, the basis of real education, of learning, of opening up the world of knowledge. That's what it's all about.

[liberal_at_heart]

118. the problem with this is that there is no alternative for students that learn

differently or at a different pace than those around them. What about the students who could learn math if they could just slow it down a bit and take one or two more years to learn math? Should they just be shoved through the system? My son was and it has not helped him one bit. He was pushed in math in middle school and they passed him but he did not learn the material. Now he's in high school and he is having to relearn multiplication and division because he never really learned it before. He couldn't do multiplication and division and they were trying to teach him algebra. What sense does that make? None at all. One of the major problems of course is funding, but another problem is curriculum. We are trying to make all of our students learn the exact same material at the exact same time and at the exact same pace, and guess what? We are failing. Until we approach education with a holistic approach and treat students as whole people as individual people we will continue to fail.

[SheilaT]

120. That is a very important point.

If I could be dictator of the entire school system, I'd cut up all coursework, especially starting at the junior high level, into six week long modules. You'd be required to complete the right kind of modules to add up to appropriate graduation requirements. Some, like history and literature modules, could be quite independent of any kind of sequencing. Others, like math, science, foreign language, would of course need to be completed in sequence.

The value of my modules would be that if a student isn't doing well at any point along the math, science, or foreign language sequence, they can just repeat that module. Obviously, my system requires that pretty much all modules be taught each six week period, which might be a bit problematical for some smaller schools, but there would be ways to figure this out. It has long struck me as absolutely nuts that if you flunk say Algebra I you have to take the entire year over, even if you simply fell apart at some point and then were lost for the rest of the year. Of course, the right kind of tutoring might solve this problem for many students, but often tutoring isn't readily available.

There is a problem with the lockstep approach, you're right. It's a solvable problem -- my solution may well be far from the best -- but the changes needed would be very hard to implement because there is so much inertia in the system.

[liberal_at_heart]

121. That sounds like a good idea.

[Quantess]

124. Who has time for math homework these days,

when we are constantly connected to social media all day long?

[lumberjack_jeff]

127. Blue collar workers use higher level math in their jobs than white collar.

Algebra and trig are skills that machinists, carpenters and welders use.

Here's a representative example of the reporting on the topic "Here's how little math Americans actually use at work"... And by "Americans", I mean white collar reporters like me, of course.

It turns out that 40% of skilled blue collar workers use advanced math daily.

[rustydog]

130. As backwoods gooberish gay-hating ignoramuses Texans are

I am surprised they didn't pass a law banning the use of the word MAN-DATE!

[tblue37]

134. IF math were well taught in our schools, students would be put on a path

toward better paying jobs by taking higher math. But since math is so very badly taught in this country, higher level math requirements simply serve to prevent students who have other talents from getting the degrees (whether high school or college degrees) that would certify them for employment in their chosen professions, even when those professions do not make any use of math, thus permanently condemning most of them to low-wage jobs.

[liberal_at_heart]

136. +1

[Ms. Toad]

138. As a former math teacher, I have very mixed feelings about this.

I taught "Applied Math," back when specific math courses weren't required for graduation. It was the second of two courses which would satisfy the 2 years of math requirement. I jokingly (but not by much) referred to it as, "Now that you know 1+1 = 2 (the first course), what do you do with it?"

Many, many of my students would not have graduated if even Algebra I had been required - and the lack of a diploma is one of the things which is an instant rejection when there are piles and piles of job applications from people who have a solid work history, but lost their job in the recession. It didn't matter so much when they were hired in decades ago, but now it does. They aren't yet ready or able to retire - but can't get a job now even with a decent work history because they don't have a diploma.

The students I taught were predominantly minority (in 11 years I taught one white student) and poor. In other words, they already have the deck stacked against them. Poverty, at least the kind my students lived with, leads to significant transience (in my Applied Math class, the class composition at the end of the year typically included 30-50% of the students who started the year, with enough new ones to keep the class the same size). Constantly moving from one school to the next means you never really learn the material being taught. When you have 10 years of that kind of instability before you reach high school, catching up in math enough to pass two years of Algebra is a near impossibility - and we don't need to be putting more barriers between these students and graduation, because it will perpetuate the cycle of poverty.

On the other hand, math (and the reasoning which is required in order to succeed at it) are crucial skills which can open many doors - and we ought to be strongly encouraging a solid background in high school level math for anyone who has the foundation to succeed at it. (And, it should go without saying that we need to be better at creating that foundation - but I try to be realistic about what is, rather than what should be.)

I don't know what the solution is - but putting (or leaving) barriers to acquiring a diploma increases the gap between the haves and the have nots.

[liberal_at_heart]

139. It is not as easy as just requiring them to pass as you have stated so well.

We cannot expect them to pass these classes until we deal with the underlying problems; poverty, lack of funding for schools, cramming too much curriculum too fast, teaching just for the sake of passing the state test, lack of flexibility and individualism. We need to be able to customize learning according to each student's needs. This would take a major shift. It would mean major changes and would take a lot more funding. But until we address the underlying problems in our educational system we will continue to see students fail math and not graduate.

[liberal_at_heart]

141. Want an example of how our schools are failing our children? My son got a C- in science this

semester. Why? Because he is a special education student in a general education science class with no educational assistant. There are no accommodations for him in this class. Will simply requiring him to pass science fix this situation? No it won't. You better believe I will be making an appointment with his teachers to discuss this.

[pokerfan]

142. Americans don't need math

I'm done fighting this fight. If states want to dumb things down, who am I to argue. Besides, everyone has a calculator on their phones these days anyway, so they can calculate tips,

Remember sitting through high school math class while the teacher droned on about polynomial equations and thinking there wasn't a chance you'd ever use any of it in life? Well, if you're like most Americans, chances are your 17-year-old self was absolutely correct.

As it turns out, less than a quarter of U.S. workers report using math any more complicated than basic fractions and percentages during the course of their jobs. The graphs below are based on survey data compiled by Northeastern University sociologist Michael Handel. Handel surveyed about 2,300 workers first from 2004 through 2006, then again between 2007 and 2009. The catchall category of "any more advanced" math includes algebra through calculus. And as you can see, most workers aren't doing a whole lot of high-level computations.



Here's How Little Math Americans Actually Use at Work'