serious question about trayvon, zimmerman and stand your ground

[arely staircase]

ok, i have raised this in other threads with very little response but:

if trayvon did in fact initiate the physical altercation, as zimmerman alleges AFTER zimmerman chased him down and illegally detained him, as zimmerman admits, doesn't the stand your ground law apply to trayvons actions and not zimmerman's?

wouldn't trayvon be the one who had the right to stand his ground under florida law against someone committing a felony against his person?

[Ian David]

1. Crazy man with a gun chasing you for no reason is legitimate cause for self-defense. n/t

[randr]

2. My guess is that in Florida

they will always side with the person with the gun.

[Empowerer]

20. They will always side with the WHITE person with the gun

If the scenario were flipped and Zimmerman were black and Trayvon white, Zimmerman would have been immediately arrested and charged with murder, few questions asked.

And we all know that if Zimmerman were unarmed and Trayvon had a gun that he used on Zimmerman in self-defense after Zimmerman chased him through the subdivision and wrestled him to the ground, Trayvon would be under the jail by now.

[provis99]

3. well, we could ask the opinion of both Zimmerman and Martin.

oh wait, Martin's dead, so only Zimmerman's opinion matters.

Hundreds of other fatal shootings in Florida follow the same pattern. What went on is judged solely by the claims of the survivor.

[arely staircase]

5. no, there are 9/11 tapes, forensic evidence,

witnesses who heard some of it and possibly someone who was on the phone with trayvon. im pretty sure the grand jury will hear all of that. there is all kinds of evidence other than zimmerman's word.

though it is true that that is all the local backwater cops were willing to entertain.

[provis99]

9. Zimmerman said it was him screaming, not Martin.

Witnesses only heard "screaming", not who was doing it. Now if Martin were alive, he might be able to deny that. But he's dead, so the only witness to this is Zimmerman. Martin's girlfriend is an unreliable witness, since she had a relationship with him. And the cops seem to be on Zimmerman's side. The chances of a successful indictment of Zimmerman, let alone a conviction, are pretty close to zero, given the content of the stand-your-ground Florida law.

[arely staircase]

12. well then if his gf is unreliable because of familiarity

what does that make zimmerman's testimony, since he was infinitely more familiar with himself than trayvon's gf was with him?

[Sedona]

13. the screaming

I'm pretty sure the FBI can analyze the 911 tape and determine without a doubt they were NOT Zimmerman's screams. If Trayvon's voice is recorded anywhere, like a voicemail, they may even be able to determine the screams were Trayvon's. Voices are like fingerprints, each unique.

http://www.infra-techuk.co.uk/infratech-forensic-speech-analysis.html

edited for typos

[arthritisR_US]

4. I think you are spot on! Trayvon was being

stalked which, by its very nature, is aggressive. I would think that his parent's lawyer would be pursuing this line of logic.

[XanaDUer]

6. I was saying this to my SO

If Trayvon had a gun maybe he could have shot Zimmerman? Who the hell is Zimmerman to question/detain ANYONE? Isn't that kidnapping?

[uppityperson]

7. Seems that way to me. eom

[The Magistrate]

8. Yes, Sir: The Only Person With A Legitimate Claim To Self-Defense Here Was Young Mr. Martin

Zimmerman's claim rests on his having a reasonable belief he was, when he began the confrontation, preventing commission of a forcible felony. He may have believed he was doing so, but cannot have met legal standards of reasonable belief he was doing so. This means that his confronting Mr. Martin was the commission of a crime, and young Mr. Martin would certainly have had a reasonable belief he was in imminent danger of serious harm of death from a stranger forcibly accosting him on the public way.

[arely staircase]

17. that's kinda how i see it

and you REALLY don't have to call me sir.

[gateley]

11. "wouldn't trayvon be the one who had the right to stand his ground..." No. He was Black. nt

[crazycanuck]

14. please pardon and educate ignorance

This Canuck is gingerly entering the waters. This case sounds like a textbook racist murder, but what on earth is a stand your ground law? How does it relate to other law, such as citizen's arrest, which, I believe, is a criminal law concept on both sides of our shared border, and how does it apply to this case? if at all?

[petronius]

16. The text of the law has been posted on other threads, but in a nutshell a SYG law

says that you are not obligated to attempt to flee or disengage before using deadly force in self-defense, even if an (apparent) escape route is available. However, your use of force must still be based on a reasonable (to an ordinary person, not just your opinion) fear that you face imminent harm to yourself or others...

[Empowerer]

21. And while it probably has not yet been tested in court . . .

it's likely that chasing an unarmed person through the streets invalidates a self-defense claim, even under the Stand Your Ground law.

[petronius]

23. Despite the amount of discussion, I think SYG is irrelevant here

That law really only matters if it's shown that Zimmerman was legitimately defending himself, but perhaps had an opportunity to retreat. The question however, is whether or not self-defense was lawful at all - and SYG has nothing to do with determining the (il)legality of a particular decision to use deadly force...

[arely staircase]

18. some states have laws that say that if you are threatened by a bully

or whomever you must run away if you can (duty to retreat) laws in other states say you can defend yourself even if running away is an option (stand your ground.)

[Skittles]

19. gun nuts paranoia turned into law

essentially you can kill someone who scares you

[Empowerer]

22. Especially if they're black men, because they are really scary

[Skittles]

28. oh absolutely

I remember when I first moved into my current apt complex and my cat took off, and I would come home from work before sunrise and be looking for him with a flashlight - it occurred to me people would have called the cops on me if I'd been a black man - yes INDEED (fyi my cat returned after 17 days...grrrrrrrrrrr)

[LisaL]

24. If he were alive he could use "stand your ground" argument, sure.

But he is dead.

[arely staircase]

26. didn't say he could "use it" i said it "appl(ied)" to him

in that those sorting this out, now that it has been removed from the hands of the local yahoos, could view it through that lense.

[Baitball Blogger]

25. Yes, but we've already determined that he didn't have a gun to defend himself,

and even if he did, the police would have probably shot him and asked questions later.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. You are confusing different parts of FL law...

To use deadly force in FL (and all the other states) you have to be in reasonable fear of GBI/death. Stand Your Ground has nothing to do with it.

SYG does not require retreating in the presence of an armed attacker, which was ALSO required previously.