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hootinholler

(26,449 posts)
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:32 PM Feb 2014

Holy Fuck Me Harder!

No, this isn't about GD turning into Gender Dysfunction, or is it?

I just waded through the Cannonfire blog's take on Greenwald's latest reveal from the Snowden papers.

It's worse, way worse than I had even imagined when in my paranoid fantasy land. Yes I know there is another thread, but it doesn't link the Cannonfire presentation and is fine for general discussion of this stuff.

The point I'm trying to focus on here, isn't about anonymous or even about internet persona management, but the spooks are choosing winners and losers in the market:



Let that one soak a few minutes, stop deals / ruin business relationships. It would seem that we have found one connection to counter-intuitive results in the marketplace when the invisible hand moves.

Holy shit. Talk about something that should be illegal. This is illegal, right? Choosing business winners and losers? Choosing political winners and losers?

Well I guess it's no worse than the CIA selling crack.

Oh, and feel free to apologize for the shit stirring surrounding Snowden.

Holy Fuck Me Harder! (Original Post) hootinholler Feb 2014 OP
Novel title. dipsydoodle Feb 2014 #1
Not familiar with it. n/t hootinholler Feb 2014 #4
Well...I almost skipped this important post because of your Title.... KoKo Feb 2014 #7
Heh, that's why i read it. ChairmanAgnostic Feb 2014 #57
Absolutely...Different Strokes for Different Folks! KoKo Feb 2014 #140
My humor is almost as warped as my femur. ChairmanAgnostic Feb 2014 #198
Thought it was the Duke porn student... Lost_Count Feb 2014 #2
Whatever it takes to get you in the thread. n/t hootinholler Feb 2014 #3
Me too, Lost_Count, BTW, a belated but hearty welcome to DU. Right glad tameetcha! Ecumenist Feb 2014 #202
I need to know about this Duke porn student. n/t Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2014 #223
Ta Da.... Lost_Count Feb 2014 #226
Thank you ... Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2014 #231
It's fine. Sadly the thread is without pictures.. Lost_Count Feb 2014 #244
The talking point being distributed right now is "this isn't really illegal". Democracyinkind Feb 2014 #5
Yes, those talking points have become more than familiar with each illegal violation sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #12
You mean all this time I could have been getting *paid* while DUing? Blue_Tires Feb 2014 #32
Yes, there are several people here on DU one of them my own personal stalker fasttense Feb 2014 #50
what is your proof they are being paid though? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #76
LOL n/t Aerows Feb 2014 #77
So you have? please show me.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #80
"I am not denying it" Aerows Feb 2014 #81
OH you are accusing me? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #82
The truth will set you free. Aerows Feb 2014 #86
Yeah that's what I heard....Is this a direct callout? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #89
If quoting Bible verses amounts to a callout Aerows Feb 2014 #93
too chicken to make the accusation outright are you? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #95
I don't think anyone has to accuse anyone of anything Aerows Feb 2014 #97
YOU clearly WANT to make accusations about people... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #98
Noticing patterns? Aerows Feb 2014 #99
No its not....that would be YOU accusing people of being paid shills..... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #101
Recognition of patterns Aerows Feb 2014 #103
You get paid for that? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #109
Yes, I do get paid to recognize failure Aerows Feb 2014 #115
apparently you do....You weren't in this conversation to add anything except to stalk VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #119
Please proceed, Governor. Aerows Feb 2014 #121
Well apparently you respect Romney more than I do... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #122
I get the quotes of President Obama Aerows Feb 2014 #123
that's about all you get right.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #124
It seems I Aerows Feb 2014 #125
because I didn't call Romney Gov? Thats your big "Get"? Congratulating yourself for that? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #127
I'm not sure where you are going with this Aerows Feb 2014 #128
I am not sure what the hell you have been talking abou from the start your ONLY VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #130
If someone was insulted Aerows Feb 2014 #131
thats the point....no one was insulted.... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #132
Oh good Aerows Feb 2014 #133
Yes actually you WERE... VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #134
I was stalking you? Aerows Feb 2014 #136
You responded with trollish behavior. VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #203
I gave you attention in the form of replies Aerows Feb 2014 #204
Post removed Post removed Feb 2014 #205
LOL! Aerows Feb 2014 #207
You were arguing? VanillaRhapsody Feb 2014 #208
I'm drooling and making googly eyes Aerows Feb 2014 #209
... Rex Feb 2014 #280
I did the best I could in that exchange Aerows Feb 2014 #286
I know, that was a perfect reply imo. Rex Feb 2014 #287
I've been through one of these with VR before. Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2014 #225
It usually takes a jury to end it. nt Democracyinkind Feb 2014 #267
I just replied Aerows Feb 2014 #289
"The lady doth protest too much, methinks." rusty fender Mar 2014 #312
Well my little stalker got banned. fasttense Feb 2014 #215
Classic! Zorra Feb 2014 #239
Proof is in their policy positions. grahamhgreen Feb 2014 #253
...and, it was a warning revealed in the latest documents.... KoKo Feb 2014 #141
Yes, when something as lame as that is repeated over and over again by sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #179
The tactics against Kucinich, David Swanson (peace activist) and KoKo Feb 2014 #182
Yes, exactly. Anyone who joins in those attacks in my experience for over eight years now, has sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #187
"It's a shame to have so much deception..." Generic Other Feb 2014 #278
Kind of like (before your time...I think) here of the Fairness Doctrine where KoKo Feb 2014 #290
Good points re transparency. In the early Bush years on some Dem forums, maybe others, it was sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #300
We should always be looking forward. Never backwards. Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2014 #224
I came up with that "talking point" myself, thank you very much Blue_Tires Feb 2014 #23
You actually managed to combine both in one post. ;) Democracyinkind Feb 2014 #26
Maybe I'm on the NSA payroll... Blue_Tires Feb 2014 #29
I won't. Democracyinkind Feb 2014 #35
One of my many issues with Greenwald's stories is that he's good on Blue_Tires Feb 2014 #48
Actually, I have pretty much the same critique. Democracyinkind Feb 2014 #49
"all-hype-no-content" 2banon Feb 2014 #269
The what and the how is what journalists are SUPPOSED to tell us. I wish the MSM would do it sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #250
This message was self-deleted by its author Th1onein Feb 2014 #151
The "why", without the particulars of "who" is covered pretty well by L. Fletcher Prouty's book... rwsanders Feb 2014 #45
You mean journalists like hootinholler Feb 2014 #145
That's kind of like saying after we read about a murder 'does anyone think sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #192
This message was self-deleted by its author Th1onein Feb 2014 #148
Thanks "hoot" ...this is another piece of info from original article deserving separate KoKo Feb 2014 #6
... what you say conjures this image...I hate feeling like I'm living in the belly of the beast... ancianita Feb 2014 #75
That is one creepy Graphic...and you might even add a door for KoKo Feb 2014 #138
Now that woo me with science Mar 2014 #310
Recommend title and article jsr Feb 2014 #8
American intelligence has been under the control of Wall Street since William Donovan at the OSS. Scuba Feb 2014 #9
So why was it not stopped before now? This is illegal and if it has been going on for sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #14
I'm not so sure of that hootinholler Feb 2014 #21
I agree with your caveat. Democracyinkind Feb 2014 #31
I don't have the underlying info & sources at my fingertips, but Jackpine Radical Feb 2014 #36
They had a starring role in a book I mentioned above by L. Fletcher Prouty on the JFK assassination. rwsanders Feb 2014 #46
Who controls the "High Frequency Trading, Commodities and Energy Markets and KoKo Feb 2014 #143
The Guardian had this article recently on go west young man Feb 2014 #158
Yep..."in the know factor" is and has been for awhile.."guaranteed." KoKo Feb 2014 #163
Why.... ReRe Feb 2014 #64
You don't need the NSA to influence the markets/politics... Earth_First Feb 2014 #10
Well...that's the point...Who ALL has ACCESS to this Information....... KoKo Feb 2014 #146
... Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #11
that is a truly silly and inane post cali Feb 2014 #25
If this were to have come out under President Bush, I'm sure the reaction from neverforget Feb 2014 #27
Suddenly in 2017 Aerows Feb 2014 #70
Exactly. It it was wrong under a Republican then it's wrong under a Democrat. neverforget Feb 2014 #73
Post removed Post removed Feb 2014 #112
Oh, so you want to get personal? Aerows Feb 2014 #114
This message was self-deleted by its author Th1onein Feb 2014 #144
I don't know that I'm taking the high road Aerows Feb 2014 #150
Not as silly as your post earlier today defending medicare payments to private insurers. Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #30
it's contemptible to make shit up. In no fucking way did I defend cali Feb 2014 #33
Yes you did. Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #34
I said it will be used against dems and it will. reality. cali Feb 2014 #43
Typical, though. Hissyspit Feb 2014 #53
This message was self-deleted by its author Th1onein Feb 2014 #157
You think this OP is baseless and worth mocking, but THIS evidence-free speculation: Hissyspit Feb 2014 #52
Yes that thread is speculation Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #54
No. No, I don't. Hissyspit Feb 2014 #71
All I did was post a picture which I've never posted before Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #72
Yep, more character assassination attempt stuff from you. Hissyspit Feb 2014 #74
Pointing out the obvious fact that you follow me around DU is character assassination? Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #78
Try to quit posting bullshit and I'll quit having to respond to it. Hissyspit Feb 2014 #83
Oh I see...I'm forcing you to stalk me because I post things you disagree with Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #84
I'm not following you around. Hissyspit Feb 2014 #87
Once again I see you have nothing to add. Just here to attack posts. Why dont you stay in the BOG. rhett o rick Feb 2014 #88
The BOG!! Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #90
Ah yes, the BOG signature ridicule emoticon. Does Sid give you extra points each time rhett o rick Feb 2014 #94
Extra points? No.... Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #96
If someone is paying either of you, they arent getting much for their money. rhett o rick Feb 2014 #100
Any time someone posts something you disagree with... Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #102
Of course you missed my point. You dont ever disagree with me rhett o rick Feb 2014 #106
Do I support fracking? Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #107
No links needed. I will take you at your word. It's possible that I misjudged you. If so, shame onme rhett o rick Feb 2014 #110
Well... Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #113
Why are you even dignifiying that person's comment? No one here owes him/her anything Number23 Feb 2014 #147
I see you have a Cha Feb 2014 #120
This message was self-deleted by its author Th1onein Feb 2014 #162
If I'm not mistaken, your entrance into this thread was... Marr Feb 2014 #170
Let us know if you get a PM hootinholler Feb 2014 #178
"You really enjoy following me around DU, huh?" I know someone who does that... cherokeeprogressive Feb 2014 #139
Well... Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #142
You're goddamn right I was pissed off at Ambassador Stevens' murder. Looks like I was the only one. cherokeeprogressive Feb 2014 #184
that looks to me more like using Stevens as cover for your bigotry JI7 Feb 2014 #200
I guess I'm not the only one who see's that, eh? nt rdharma Feb 2014 #201
Funny how you seem to manage to always reply to me first in threads... Cali_Democrat Feb 2014 #59
Wait, I was being mocked? hootinholler Feb 2014 #62
I refuse to read this because he's a trayter and he lives in a forein country. progressoid Feb 2014 #13
And don't forget 'this is nothing new, it's always been this way'! sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #15
And for more good news, the chocolate ration Jackpine Radical Feb 2014 #39
And the rolling, laughing smileys... Fawke Em Feb 2014 #56
Oh yes, I nearly forgot the little roly poly laughing guy. Lol, that one sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #104
Much of the middle of this thread is an example of exactly what those KoKo Feb 2014 #149
Whoever orchestrates these campaign, and we have seen one of them exposed thoroughly sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #176
Interesting...what you say about these tactics causing more support KoKo Feb 2014 #188
I think it's just desperation. And as I said, they are not very imaginative people. sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #191
HBGary, Palantir, Prism, Facebook & The Industrial Surveillance Complex KoKo Feb 2014 #235
Mr Roffle Waffles used to be an honest emoticon bobduca Feb 2014 #186
He has been appropriated! sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #190
Moochy moochy...nt SidDithers Feb 2014 #199
You should read it for sheer entertainment. n/t ProSense Feb 2014 #28
I found it extremely informative, and missed the entertainment value. Could you sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #105
It's entertainment that you can see through hootinholler Feb 2014 #183
Really interesting. MadrasT Feb 2014 #16
And how do you suppose they attain that confidential data? Marr Feb 2014 #17
THIS is what they are trying to hide. The REAL reason for the 'surveillance' sabrina 1 Feb 2014 #118
This message was self-deleted by its author Th1onein Feb 2014 #165
I fear you are right, bvar22 Feb 2014 #256
This sounds very similar to Jim Cramer's game Oilwellian Feb 2014 #18
This message was self-deleted by its author guyton Feb 2014 #37
He's WIRED IN...and that's why he won't be fired. He's an example KoKo Feb 2014 #153
Do we have proof this is occurring, or just PowerPoint slides? JaneyVee Feb 2014 #19
This is the really all the proof one needs. go west young man Feb 2014 #196
DDDD Deny, Disrupt, Degrade, Deceive Octafish Feb 2014 #20
Prove it! OnyxCollie Feb 2014 #137
Seems like it comes from this slide hootinholler Feb 2014 #174
Dude... OnyxCollie Feb 2014 #175
My Sister has a blue heeler who is deaf hootinholler Feb 2014 #177
"It's worse, way worse than I had even imagined..." woo me with science Feb 2014 #22
This is what I've been saying for a long while. Enthusiast Feb 2014 #51
If you haven't already, you really need to read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" justiceischeap Feb 2014 #24
It's on the reading list hootinholler Feb 2014 #38
And are those boxes in the garage?...lots of unpacked boxes in the garage? zeemike Feb 2014 #58
Um why yes, they are sort of hootinholler Feb 2014 #61
But...the dog smelled of elderberries. nt Zorra Feb 2014 #161
After you read that one, read Naomi Klein's... ReRe Feb 2014 #67
It was only a matter of time, really. arcane1 Feb 2014 #42
Fantastic Read...and more Current with the lastes ongoing revelations! KoKo Feb 2014 #154
They do this to people, too. Fawke Em Feb 2014 #40
I would not be surprised by this. stillwaiting Feb 2014 #69
I don't mind posting this again arikara Feb 2014 #211
We in the "Gungeon" have seen it for years. Now, full-time in GD. Eleanors38 Feb 2014 #249
Reminds me of this: bvar22 Feb 2014 #273
He who must not be named arikara Feb 2014 #299
Edward Bernays? friendly_iconoclast Feb 2014 #303
Where Have All The Defenders Gone... Long Time Coming... WillyT Feb 2014 #41
oh they're around cali Feb 2014 #44
Yeah, I noticed That fascisthunter Feb 2014 #47
I second that. zeemike Feb 2014 #60
I agree with this. sibelian Feb 2014 #213
Hey cali, while I am rather new here sadoldgirl Feb 2014 #91
There is nothing to defend. ProSense Feb 2014 #65
Kos is mostly wrong. Hissyspit Feb 2014 #85
Move along. bvar22 Feb 2014 #152
Aren't you tired of posting that out of context attempt at propaganda? ProSense Feb 2014 #156
Now THAT was pathetic. bvar22 Feb 2014 #166
LOL! ProSense Feb 2014 #168
Previous "lame crap." bvar22 Feb 2014 #258
Was it called Abuse? If so, I played with that in the late 80's. nt DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2014 #281
Way back in 2006 neverforget Feb 2014 #172
Maybe ProSense Feb 2014 #181
Would you defend this program under a Republican President? neverforget Feb 2014 #185
Your "position" is crystal clear, and has been for a long time. bvar22 Feb 2014 #259
LOL! ProSense Feb 2014 #260
The lessons of 2000 will never be learned by those willing to Old and In the Way Feb 2014 #277
So would you support this under a Republican President? neverforget Feb 2014 #295
Cass Sunstein thinks it's a wonderfully effective method of message control. OnyxCollie Feb 2014 #159
Oooh, a 2008 paper by some guy ProSense Feb 2014 #164
"Some guy" LOL! OnyxCollie Feb 2014 #169
LOL! ProSense Feb 2014 #171
What are you trying to say? OnyxCollie Feb 2014 #173
They aren't trying to say anything. SolutionisSolidarity Feb 2014 #193
No, I said what ProSense Feb 2014 #218
projecting? LOL bobduca Feb 2014 #237
"also" woo me with science Feb 2014 #241
K&R n/t jtuck004 Feb 2014 #55
K&R DeSwiss Feb 2014 #63
All markets are free, some markets are freer than others. Forget about it, Jake, its Chinatown, marble falls Feb 2014 #66
K&R ReRe Feb 2014 #68
Related: How Covert Agents Infiltrate the Internet to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy Reputations Purveyor Feb 2014 #79
YES! Greenwald's Site has commenters mentioning ASSANGE Honey Trap! KoKo Feb 2014 #155
Here's an excellent comment left on Greenwald's page Oilwellian Feb 2014 #92
right on G_j Feb 2014 #108
+100000000 woo me with science Feb 2014 #129
***** . ! adirondacker Feb 2014 #189
Fucking A. I strongly believe in government's ability to be a positive force in people's lives. TheKentuckian Feb 2014 #194
" I strongly believe in government's ability to be a positive force in people's lives." woo me with science Feb 2014 #243
How did this become rocket science? It didn't. I'm starting to wonder if all the screeching about TheKentuckian Feb 2014 #296
if you consider what might happen if anti-surveillance, pro-privacy and freedom voters coalesced reddread Feb 2014 #297
Seems they like the corporate dominance, fuck the environment, fuck the people aspects just fine. TheKentuckian Feb 2014 #298
+ 1,000,000,000... What You/He/She Said !!! WillyT Feb 2014 #195
Greenwald himself has been the target of these same techniques starroute Feb 2014 #111
Big Brother and Big Biz been playing social engineer for decades now. Rex Feb 2014 #116
K&R me b zola Feb 2014 #117
Thank you again Mr. Snowden and... wildbilln864 Feb 2014 #126
Congratulations, fellow leftists. we are validated, and vindicated, in so many ways. Zorra Feb 2014 #135
You Said it! Great Graphic! KoKo Feb 2014 #160
Glad you like it, KoKo. Zorra Feb 2014 #167
9/11??? blkmusclmachine Feb 2014 #180
You know, I'm all for making Batman edgy Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #197
What does that even mean? n/t hootinholler Feb 2014 #214
I don't know. Warren DeMontague Feb 2014 #262
LOL hootinholler Feb 2014 #271
This is one hell of a long thread. zeemike Feb 2014 #206
K&R for pissing off all the right douchebags bobduca Feb 2014 #210
Calling other people "douchebags" ProSense Feb 2014 #217
Government deployed douche bag sock puppets arent people reddread Feb 2014 #220
And, of course, ProSense Feb 2014 #221
Lambchops stew n/t reddread Feb 2014 #222
+1 Moral corruption. Moral vacancy. woo me with science Feb 2014 #228
? Bobbie Jo Feb 2014 #245
Oh look the bog loyalty brigade is out in force! bobduca Feb 2014 #247
What "bog?" Bobbie Jo Feb 2014 #248
K&R for all the people that reply to such posts with defensive outrage! Rex Feb 2014 #265
Yeah thats on them, lol bobduca Feb 2014 #301
Going by this thread it looks like it's working perfectly. joshcryer Feb 2014 #212
Yep. Paranoia about infiltrators almost always does more damage than a potential infiltrator. stevenleser Feb 2014 #219
Another thing is that close confidants have turned. joshcryer Feb 2014 #275
oops double post joshcryer Feb 2014 #276
kick woo me with science Feb 2014 #216
Stand by for the "Stand with Obama" loyalty test thread Savannahmann Feb 2014 #227
They gotta flood the zone bobduca Feb 2014 #230
Are you admitting that the goal of the OP is anti-Obama? ProSense Feb 2014 #233
How dare you even guess my motivation to post this. hootinholler Feb 2014 #293
So as to ProSense Feb 2014 #234
Here is the theme song: bvar22 Feb 2014 #291
Another revelation from today: FBI claims Sonny Liston took a fall in his fight with Cassius Clay, secondwind Feb 2014 #229
The papers are from the UK. Progressive dog Feb 2014 #232
Maybe he just loves Aerows Feb 2014 #263
And maybe he is just a criminal Progressive dog Feb 2014 #268
And maybe I'm Anastasia Nikolaevna, bvar22 Feb 2014 #272
I don't know whrer you fled to, Progressive dog Feb 2014 #306
Here is the same thing posted on DU 18 months ago. stevenleser Feb 2014 #236
But Steve...that's one of the tactics used: KoKo Feb 2014 #238
The claim that "its a tactic" is a combination of two logical fallacies. stevenleser Feb 2014 #240
No matter. It's always good for people to know that paid RW corporatists swarm the internet in order Zorra Feb 2014 #246
You've got to wonder why some posters object to this discussion, old news as it is... Romulox Feb 2014 #252
Exactly. It's a perfectly valid, and increasingly important, discussion on a progressive website. nt Zorra Feb 2014 #254
The idea that somethings is less true now--because it was true before--is bizarre on its face. Romulox Feb 2014 #255
That is a strange phenomenon, glad someone else sees that happen too. Rex Feb 2014 #279
Well, darn...that's really observant, KoKo. Zorra Feb 2014 #242
Because something that is true can't be mentioned more than once. Q.E.D. Romulox Feb 2014 #251
WTF are you prattling on about? hootinholler Feb 2014 #261
There is no confirmation here, only yet another accusation. ALmost a nice try. nt stevenleser Feb 2014 #264
The simple fact that slide is classified TOP SECRET is confirmation hootinholler Feb 2014 #270
Ooooh posted by 'mkultra' no less! Rex Feb 2014 #266
Some of the "Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation" have been used in this thread... friendly_iconoclast Feb 2014 #304
the irony is that the regulation and atmosphere needed to fix this shit is still certainot Feb 2014 #257
Good Points and thanks for Posting this. RW Domination of Radio is a Disgrace! KoKo Feb 2014 #274
i remember reading about a connection between talk radio, ABC, and cia's william? casey and his certainot Feb 2014 #292
K&R for pissing off all the right people! Rex Feb 2014 #282
Thank you for demonstrating another logical fallacy component to this stevenleser Feb 2014 #283
I love how people project when they read and reply to a post! Rex Feb 2014 #284
I agree, you have projected when you replied. stevenleser Mar 2014 #311
I know a retired Episcopal priest who was an SEC prosecutor before becoming a priest . . . markpkessinger Feb 2014 #285
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? hootinholler Feb 2014 #294
recommend frwrfpos Feb 2014 #288
Thank You For Sharing cantbeserious Feb 2014 #302
kick woo me with science Feb 2014 #305
another... KoKo Feb 2014 #307
^ Zorra Feb 2014 #308
Could Be... WillyT Feb 2014 #309
kick woo me with science Mar 2014 #313
^ Zorra Mar 2014 #314

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
7. Well...I almost skipped this important post because of your Title....
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:47 PM
Feb 2014

It was a little OTT.... But, the article is definitely worth the read. Just hope you don't lose viewers because of the language. On the other hand, given "GD" these days I guess one has to do what they gotta do as you stated.

Democracyinkind

(4,015 posts)
5. The talking point being distributed right now is "this isn't really illegal".
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:42 PM
Feb 2014

It will be followed by "we've known this for years. How is this news??".

Yes, I am the Mentalo of talking points.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
12. Yes, those talking points have become more than familiar with each illegal violation
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:01 PM
Feb 2014

of our rights especially, 'we always had this kind of thing going on'. I am always fascinated by that one. I always think 'we always have had murder going on' so, what are we supposed to do about? The suggestion is, 'don't bother going after murderers because they have always amongst us'.

Even their talking points are lame. I hope they don't pay a whole lot for them.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
50. Yes, there are several people here on DU one of them my own personal stalker
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:52 PM
Feb 2014

with about 5 screen names that are getting paid to post on DU. They post the typical "yeah for the uber rich and the corporations who will be our new gods" kind of crap. They really hate Venezuela and they got a hate on for anything socialist.

I wonder if I pretended to be a RepubliCON and singed up to post on DU for RepubliCON money, how long would it take the fools to stop paying me?

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
76. what is your proof they are being paid though?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:15 PM
Feb 2014

I see this often but have yet to see someone actually out someone..

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
80. So you have? please show me....
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:19 PM
Feb 2014

I would love to see that....

I am not denying it.....just want to know if it is just being bandied about or if it has actually happened.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
82. OH you are accusing me?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:22 PM
Feb 2014

Then that really is.....

I WISH I got paid for all the time I put into this....I would be rich!

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
93. If quoting Bible verses amounts to a callout
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:37 PM
Feb 2014

and offering good advice amounts to a callout, I fear you haven't been on the internet too long. I know who I am, and you know who you are. I'll just deliver a deadly smirk and offer you a tiny wave.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
95. too chicken to make the accusation outright are you?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:40 PM
Feb 2014

YOU don't know shit about me....as a matter of fact....I have probably been on the Internet longer than you have...since like 1985 in fact. I actually have a degree in programming ....so why would I need to be a "cheap labor" paid shill?

But come on on....accuse me....say it outright....make my day!

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
97. I don't think anyone has to accuse anyone of anything
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:44 PM
Feb 2014

when they make it clear through their actions. Yes, you have been on the internet longer than I have - I only got on it in 1989. Because I was busy going to elementary school and junior high.

During that time, I learned that how people act tells you more about who they are than anything they say. It has been a valuable lesson for me that I have kept in mind my entire life.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
98. YOU clearly WANT to make accusations about people...
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:47 PM
Feb 2014

I am not the one that questioned anyone's internet "cred" that would be YOU...

And again I must say....YOU don't know SHIT aboiut ME!

I on the other hand....have a job that pays me to notice patterns....that is what programming is...keep that in mind.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
101. No its not....that would be YOU accusing people of being paid shills.....
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:53 PM
Feb 2014

That's what you dropped into this conversation for....

OR did you have anything of import to say other than a lame attempt at trying to insult me? If so...FAILURE!

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
115. Yes, I do get paid to recognize failure
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:34 PM
Feb 2014

I fix problems. I don't create them and then complain that someone pointed it out.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
119. apparently you do....You weren't in this conversation to add anything except to stalk
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:42 PM
Feb 2014

me...You added nothing to the conversation except a vague accusation that you refused to back up...I would call that YOUR failure....

"Please proceed Mr Romney"

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
127. because I didn't call Romney Gov? Thats your big "Get"? Congratulating yourself for that?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:15 PM
Feb 2014

hahaahahahaha

Oh yeah and Paid shill detection...FAIL!
I'd say your "fail" is of epic proportions!

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
128. I'm not sure where you are going with this
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:17 PM
Feb 2014

You made a misquote of the President. I corrected it.

You have a problem with people stating what President Obama said correctly?

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
130. I am not sure what the hell you have been talking abou from the start your ONLY
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:28 PM
Feb 2014

objective was to insult me.....you failed that objective too. (isn't that called trolling?)

Just trying to put enough posts on this thread perhaps? Does that help the OP poster....are they getting paid by the response?

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
131. If someone was insulted
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 07:35 PM
Feb 2014

you did it to yourself, VR. I just didn't play along.

As to your other question, well, you would know better than I do!

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
134. Yes actually you WERE...
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:00 PM
Feb 2014

stalking someone just to trash talk IS the epitome of trolling....you are just not very good at it.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
136. I was stalking you?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:08 PM
Feb 2014

Please, dear, give me some credit. I merely responded to a thread you were in. You are the one that keeps this going. Maybe I should be flattered . In fact, I think I am.

 

VanillaRhapsody

(21,115 posts)
203. You responded with trollish behavior.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:23 AM
Feb 2014

Since you sought me out....perhaps it is "I" that should be flattered....YOU came to me...remember?

Response to Aerows (Reply #204)

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
209. I'm drooling and making googly eyes
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:39 AM
Feb 2014

over the idea that Taco Bell is going to introduce breakfast. Good Lord that sounds awesome, and hand me some hot sauce to put on my ... whatever the hell this is rolled up in a flauta with eggs, cheese and sausage.

We can get along as long as you don't get in my way of that!

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
286. I did the best I could in that exchange
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 07:27 PM
Feb 2014

I wasn't really left anywhere to go with that, Rex.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
287. I know, that was a perfect reply imo.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 07:34 PM
Feb 2014

You did far better in that exchange than I ever could.

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
289. I just replied
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 07:39 PM
Feb 2014

to the best of my ability. Ranting at me, gay-baiting and other tactics to cause upset. It isn't right, but it's the way of things, I guess.

 

fasttense

(17,301 posts)
215. Well my little stalker got banned.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 08:44 AM
Feb 2014

but she has several other screen names she uses. She slipped up and used the plural to refer to herself.

I use to post on Thom Hartmann's web site and they had a RW troll that I kept silent about. He was constantly throwing out RepubliCON talking points and fighting with others. Later, after the election, he came out and told everyone he was getting paid by a RW site and sorta, kind of apologized. I suspected him from the start and should have trusted my instincts. I stopped posting there because he was so annoying.

But at least I learned from him what they do.

I do not have 100% guaranteed proof that she was getting paid. But she and her minions used the same tactics as did the paid troll on Thom Hartmann.

In addition the Glenn Greenwald piece about our government disrupting on-line communities makes me wonder about the recent in-flow of disruptors with low post counts to DU.

https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/02/24/jtrig-manipulation/


KoKo

(84,711 posts)
141. ...and, it was a warning revealed in the latest documents....
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:46 PM
Feb 2014

"..we've seen this before...it's old news."

I believe it's there in one of the charts as another form of disinfo tactics. Actually, much of what we who have been on the web have seen for years now. All the items in this latest document release...most of us have seen used on places we've been and either read or commented in the discussion.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
179. Yes, when something as lame as that is repeated over and over again by
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:54 PM
Feb 2014

different people, it is a talking point. Real people don't repeat talking points, they speak from the heart.

Here are a few trumped up to slam Liberals with, and not from Republicans, who had their own list for Liberals, these began around 2004 on Dem forums:

'You don't belong to the Reality Based Community'.
'Thanks for your 'concern'.
'Concern troll'

'Purity Troll'. That is a favorite, accusing those who stick to Liberal principles of 'purity'. Whenever I see that I remember where I first saw it, and I know that individual was an operative. He was eventually proven to be. Nasty, insulting, 'democrat' who could not hide his disdain for actual Democrats.

There was a whole list of these words and phrases rolled out around 2004 and that's when we began to see attacks on Liberals like Dennis Kucinich, mocking garbage we had only seen from the right until then.

Those are other identifiers, WHICH Dems they attack, usually the most Left Leaning.

I have often had disagreements with people who I know are not part of any of this. Because they USE THEIR OWN WORDS and do not PERSONALLY attack, they might get angry, frustrated but you can tell when someone simply disagrees on an issue and when the goal is to undermine the PERSON.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
182. The tactics against Kucinich, David Swanson (peace activist) and
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:04 PM
Feb 2014

others including Ralph Nader (as single handedly causing 2000 Selection by the Supreme Court of Bush II as President) and so many others who were turned upon (thrown under the bus) by tactics that are divulged in this release.

Assange discredited by suspicious accusations which are classic "Honey Pot" tactics and Snowden discredited by "boxes in garage" and "pole dancing girlfriend" amongst other slings and arrows.

So many ....

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
187. Yes, exactly. Anyone who joins in those attacks in my experience for over eight years now, has
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:21 PM
Feb 2014

often been part of the campaign against truth telling and against Liberals, who tend to want to know and tell the truth no matter where the chips may fall.

I love Swanson, and he was one of the first actually, to come under attack from those I spoke about above, on a different forum than this, a prominent forum. Here it took longer, but I see it now and recognize it from back then. Not as overt as it was there but recognizable nevertheless. I am not surprise that people like Swanson have moved away from these forums and has a much broader audience now without the nonsense he and several others, also moved on, doing much more elsewhere, on Independent TV etc, where they are immune to that kind of 'smear campaign'.

Some of course just join in because they naturally 'lean right' on several issues and have a natural disdain for the 'left'. Inadvertently they are helping these deceptive campaigns. Some eventually realize it and distance themselves from it.

It's a shame to have so much deception such intense effort to stop people from having serious conversations. It was inevitable that these snakes would slither onto the internet to make sure the people have nowhere to simply discuss important issues and maybe make a difference.

Generic Other

(28,978 posts)
278. "It's a shame to have so much deception..."
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:45 PM
Feb 2014

This is my issue. I post on DU with my heart on my sleeve. I don't lie about my beliefs. And when I am being stubbornly wrongheaded in anyone else's view, that is 100% me with no paid sponsors. The idea that there are people who are not equally honest is strange as they seem to believe they are going to control my thinking with their machinations. Frankly, if someone actually said to me, "I get paid to shill for this candidate/issue/party, and I will do my best to promote my issue and my point of view, I am not sure I would be upset. The honesty would feel refreshing. And I might take what they had to say more seriously.

If news people prefaced remarks by reminding viewers their companies had very strong partisan views about issues, I would trust them more. In my local paper, they still endorse candidates and explain their choices. I prefer that to going behind my back, paying off lobbyists, doing backroom deals, etc.



KoKo

(84,711 posts)
290. Kind of like (before your time...I think) here of the Fairness Doctrine where
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 07:42 PM
Feb 2014

there was Forced Equal time for Opposing Candidates to have equal time. There were some other parts of the "Fairness Doctrine" that caused it's demise ....but Equal Time with announced Party Affiliation and the Source of the Sponsorship of the Ad would be at least a small step back to "FAIRNESS" in ADVERTISING for our Candidates.

If you do a Search of "History of the Fairness Doctrine" it's interesting about why it was instituted in the first place and what it was about.

I grew up under it and there was much worth in having "Equal Time" for political viewpoints policed by the Network "Standards and Practices Divisions" which were unfortunately disbanded when the "Fairness Doctrine" was thrown out.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
300. Good points re transparency. In the early Bush years on some Dem forums, maybe others, it was
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:24 PM
Feb 2014

required that people reveal it if they were professional operatives, for candidates eg, or any other kind of 'work'. That made sense because then people understood where they were coming from and it did not upset anyone, it just explained why someone might be unwilling to admit to certain things eg or why they were so 'passionate' about their opinions.

I don't know why it is not a requirement. You should be able to ask someone 'are you working for someone' when it appears that way.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
23. I came up with that "talking point" myself, thank you very much
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:53 PM
Feb 2014

Did anyone here really think the competitive business world was all pristine and fair play before this story? Did anyone here think governments in every developed nation haven't had a direct or indirect role in determining which corporations thrive while others wither on the vine??

If someone could ever be bothered to research the "why" and "who benefits" in these stories, then we might actually get somewhere...

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
29. Maybe I'm on the NSA payroll...
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:00 PM
Feb 2014

God knows I've been called everything else during my time here...

So do my questions get answered, or are we just going to snipe?

Democracyinkind

(4,015 posts)
35. I won't.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:09 PM
Feb 2014

You address me as someone who is naive about such things, and that puts me off.

I happen to know quite allot about the intersection of intelligence and business, academically and personally. No need to trot out the old "did you really think this hasn't gone on forever"...

You might think I was sniping, or responding to your input from another thread, but both assumptions are wrong. My smileys are always friendly and disengaging

Edit: I wholeheartedly agree with your last paragraph. Naturally, this is a subject that is nearly impossible to investigate. But there are attempts, and there are famous cases where many people "know", such as the case of Boeing vs. Airbus, which is as much a battle between Intel as it is a battle between businesses.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
48. One of my many issues with Greenwald's stories is that he's good on
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:38 PM
Feb 2014

the "what" and "how", but never delves into the "whys" or the specific "who" (i.e., who is pulling the strings and/or who is reaping the rewards)...Without those, it's impossible to uncover the chain of responsibility or bring people to account, since everyone can keep passing the buck...

I don't like stories that just hang "out there" with unanswered questions and untracked leads...If there is a wider context to this (and there always is), I'd rather it be explored and fleshed out instead of alluded to and hinted at...

So I tend to be more flippant than I probably should about stories that at the bottom line don't tell me a whole lot...

Democracyinkind

(4,015 posts)
49. Actually, I have pretty much the same critique.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:49 PM
Feb 2014

But I'm not sure if it's Greenwald's fault. Being familiar with historical works about intel and espionage, this is a problem that the whole discipline faces. Maybe it's in the nature of the subject rather than in the competence of researchers. Then again, Greenwald is a journalist, not an academic, so I'm not that big on him.

I think that the thing that bugged me about your post was that I have pretty much the same attitude toward people that I consider less knowledgeable on the subject or toward the all-hype-no-content-stories that often ger posted here. So, sorry for being an ass. What you wrote is actually true, and I mistook you for someone who simply wants to dismiss the subject. Now I see that you're actually just venting your frustration over the intangibleness of the subject. A frustration that I share.

 

2banon

(7,321 posts)
269. "all-hype-no-content"
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:29 PM
Feb 2014

(post 49)

.......toward the all-hype-no-content-stories that often ger posted here.


I share your frustration,, although my reactions generally live in the universe of "supreme annoyance" planet.

I'm going to steal this quote/phrase from you (if you're ok with that) because you've succinctly articulated my thoughts on 75% of most news headlines, but especially video clip and OP titles etc.

and don'tcha just love OTT headers on the same/similar theme?

'so and so did an all time "smack down", blah blah blah.. (go click on it, only to discover a mealy-mouthed "counter" is described as an 'all time smack down', or other similar descriptives..




sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
250. The what and the how is what journalists are SUPPOSED to tell us. I wish the MSM would do it
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:06 PM
Feb 2014

but they, on the contrary, deny there even is a what or a how. I'm not sure what you mean by the 'why', that's pretty easy to figure out once you get the facts which we don't get from the Corporate media. Which is why people don't even bother with them anymore, unless they WANT to be deceived.

Response to Blue_Tires (Reply #29)

rwsanders

(2,529 posts)
45. The "why", without the particulars of "who" is covered pretty well by L. Fletcher Prouty's book...
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:31 PM
Feb 2014

on the JFK assassination.
I finished it recently and it really gives context to a lot of what is being uncovered by the NSA revelations.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
192. That's kind of like saying after we read about a murder 'does anyone think
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:57 PM
Feb 2014

that there never was a murder before until this happened'? What point are you making by stating the obvious, at least to those of us who are sentient. Does it make it RIGHT when something is reported that has happened before, like bank robberies, or murder, or rape, all have happened before, multiple times throughout history yet we still express horror when we read of the latest crime.

The fact that this may have happened before is completely irrelevant to THIS latest revelation. It was bad THEN and it is bad NOW and maybe it's way past time, since as you point out, these dirty tricks have been practiced before, to DO something, as have about other crimes, like pass laws, to at least diminish their occurances and where when they are exposed, there can be accountability for them, making sure the public how unprincipled and corrupt these people are. Liars, deliberate liars, SHOULD be exposed and held accountable as they are HURTING people.

Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #5)

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
6. Thanks "hoot" ...this is another piece of info from original article deserving separate
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 01:44 PM
Feb 2014

attention. Some of the earlier Snowden releases alluded to business transactions being corrupted by the spying...but this link really focuses on what should have everyone concerned.

And, take it back to the "Financial Meltdown" we suffered and are still suffering through and think of what might have been known and done to cause it. Aside from the manipulation that Wall Street and our large Global Companies could do with privileged information from spying. And, implications for Emerging Markets, Third World Countries and "Revolutions" which result from instability in Commondities Resources, Currency Manipulation and Company Advantages in these countries.

Thanks for posting this!

ancianita

(34,623 posts)
75. ... what you say conjures this image...I hate feeling like I'm living in the belly of the beast...
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:05 PM
Feb 2014

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
138. That is one creepy Graphic...and you might even add a door for
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:34 PM
Feb 2014

Ukraine...given our meddling there.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
14. So why was it not stopped before now? This is illegal and if it has been going on for
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:04 PM
Feb 2014

a long time and Congress knew it, it is SHAMEFUL that they have nothing about it. That is why these revelations are so important, only the people can changes this and in order to do so, they NEEDED to know what is going on.

hootinholler

(26,449 posts)
21. I'm not so sure of that
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:44 PM
Feb 2014

I do know there has been a symbiosis between the two in that it has always been easy for the CIA to place an executive in a corporate office as part of a cover story. We also know there are CIA front companies as well.

But it is a bit of a leap to accept your assertion that Wall St controls the CIA. Wall St is a little too nebulous a thing to control anything. If you can narrow it down to some tangible people who control the CIA, I could possibly agree with your assertion.

Democracyinkind

(4,015 posts)
31. I agree with your caveat.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:03 PM
Feb 2014

Then again, it doesn't get anymore Wall Street than the Dullesses, the Georgetown Set and their Old Boy network.

The CIA, at least, is and always was deeply intertwined with Wall Street. I don't even think that that is really disputed anywhere. Burton Hersh (among others) wrote a great book about it.

Jackpine Radical

(45,274 posts)
36. I don't have the underlying info & sources at my fingertips, but
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:13 PM
Feb 2014

I have taken it for granted for years that the CIA & Wall Street are Siamese twins.

Check out the bios of Allen Dulles & his brother John Foster Dulles as cases in point.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
143. Who controls the "High Frequency Trading, Commodities and Energy Markets and
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:52 PM
Feb 2014

Natural Resources Extraction from Countries we choose to Invade ...or those who we help to incite revolutions in to get access over China or Russia into their "rare earth minerals, oil, Nat Gas and common minerals" for extraction?

Having super spying into the companies vying for those interests and the Governments of those who have those resources would be a huge advantage to our Global US Companies, Pentagon and and MIC... Wouldn't it?

 

go west young man

(4,856 posts)
158. The Guardian had this article recently on
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:09 PM
Feb 2014

definitive industrial espionage regarding US surveillance of Siemens in Germany. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/26/edward-snowden-nsa-industrial-sabotage

It only makes sense that that if the Carlyle Group is in charge of Booze, Allen, Hamilton who is conducting spying all over the world, then those people (who lied us into the Iraq war incidentally) are going to be using the info to make themselves rich. Like the Wall Street bailout money, the public is aware of the problem and the conflict of interest, but no one is doing anything to stop it. I myself would never play the stock market these days. It was always rigged for the high rollers in the know, now their "in the know factor" is guaranteed.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
163. Yep..."in the know factor" is and has been for awhile.."guaranteed."
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:23 PM
Feb 2014
It's hard not to fit the pieces together as all of this transpires. Even those who don't have time to read as much as others...are going to be waking up.

This is about US...THE PEOPLE...and what's being done to us with Austerity Programs and Joblessness plus the manipulation and downsizing of our lives and the stresses of Climate Change, dislocation and people at their wits end trying to survive on the poorest end and the Middle Class in such decline that they are whip sawed caught up in policies and financial manipulation that we have no time to catch a breath before the next stressful horror visits.

Earth_First

(14,910 posts)
10. You don't need the NSA to influence the markets/politics...
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:00 PM
Feb 2014

It doesn't take the NSA to get any of that information into the right hands; for the right price of course.

'Expert Network' consultation that operates in broad daylight, registered with the SEC, and make millions annually on offering information to 'subscribers' on Wall Street.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_network

These expert networks have the ability and track records to provide information pertaining to comapnies' 'probable' earnings reports, current research and development, and social connections with the companies that traders and firms have the ability to make millions on or save their own asses.

Insider trading? Probably.

Illegal. Absolutely.

Frontline did a piece called 'To Catch a Trader' in 2010 which highlights these expert networks and much more...

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/to-catch-a-trader/

All of this of course has political implications when it comes down to the bottom line and who has access to this information.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
146. Well...that's the point...Who ALL has ACCESS to this Information.......
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:54 PM
Feb 2014

and the "more the Merrier" for the "Five Eyes.'

neverforget

(9,426 posts)
27. If this were to have come out under President Bush, I'm sure the reaction from
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:59 PM
Feb 2014

Last edited Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:05 PM - Edit history (1)

him would be entirely different......

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
70. Suddenly in 2017
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:56 PM
Feb 2014

It will be a very different song and dance. I didn't do the song and dance in 2000-2008, and I don't do it now.

Those that cheaply throw away integrity for the sake of recognition of a party? They will throw their ... and I almost said something that is very bad, because this angers me intensely, but I didn't.

Suffice to say, for some, principles are for sale.

Response to Aerows (Reply #70)

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
114. Oh, so you want to get personal?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:28 PM
Feb 2014

Well that speaks well of you and your message. I guess if you can't beat the message, you beat on the person. Congratulations, Cali_Democrat. I'll forget you said this if you do, because frankly, it doesn't do you any favors.

Response to Aerows (Reply #114)

 

Aerows

(39,961 posts)
150. I don't know that I'm taking the high road
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:59 PM
Feb 2014

I'm just refraining from going as low as I can.

I'm not perfect, I could, but I won't.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
30. Not as silly as your post earlier today defending medicare payments to private insurers.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:01 PM
Feb 2014

You really exposed yourself with that one.

DURHAM_D really took your post apart, my dear:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4561751

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
33. it's contemptible to make shit up. In no fucking way did I defend
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:05 PM
Feb 2014

medicare plus. and YOU know that. I said that the repukes will scream Medicare cuts in this election year and that it's a political risk.

disgusting and false claim from you,

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
34. Yes you did.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:09 PM
Feb 2014

You tried to attack Obama for cutting those rates. In your rush to attack Obama, you exposed yourself as somebody fighting for private insurers.

You got called out for it and rightly so. You got your you know what handed to you in that thread.

That shit would be fucking laughable if it wasn't so sad.


Response to cali (Reply #25)

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
54. Yes that thread is speculation
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:09 PM
Feb 2014

Did I say it wasn't?

I see you replied to me there, but self-deleted.

You really enjoy following me around DU, huh?

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
72. All I did was post a picture which I've never posted before
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:58 PM
Feb 2014

and you decided to link back to another thread and question me about it even though I didn't create the OP.

This isn't the first time you've done something like that.

You really do seem to like following me around DU.

Hissyspit

(45,788 posts)
74. Yep, more character assassination attempt stuff from you.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:04 PM
Feb 2014

As usual.

You post in all these threads, with the most egregiously illogical or false stuff that demands to be countered. It only seems like I'm following you around.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
78. Pointing out the obvious fact that you follow me around DU is character assassination?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:17 PM
Feb 2014

Oh lawd...

I mean...you replied to me first (as usual) and then you questioned me about an OP which I didn't even create.

You also felt the need to "counter" my picture which apparently contained "false stuff" that "demands to be countered" even though I didn't even write any words in that post?

It's all rather creepy if you ask me.

Seriously. Try to leave me alone or I will be forced to report you to the admins.

Hissyspit

(45,788 posts)
83. Try to quit posting bullshit and I'll quit having to respond to it.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:22 PM
Feb 2014

Or feel free to do anything you want.

"Obvious fact." Yes, I realize you think lots of things are obvious facts that actually are not. That's part of what compels counter-argument.

Meanwhile, address the ISSUE. Why is this mock-worthy, but the other post wasn't? (Or course, your deflection off of the argument onto the poster is the point, isn't it?)

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
84. Oh I see...I'm forcing you to stalk me because I post things you disagree with
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:24 PM
Feb 2014

Seriously?

Stop following me around DU.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
88. Once again I see you have nothing to add. Just here to attack posts. Why dont you stay in the BOG.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:33 PM
Feb 2014

They probably appreciate you there. You dont have to post anything of substance there.

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
94. Ah yes, the BOG signature ridicule emoticon. Does Sid give you extra points each time
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:40 PM
Feb 2014

you use it. I think all you guys/gals are in jr. high.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
96. Extra points? No....
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:44 PM
Feb 2014

Sid and myself are actually paid-to-post NSA operatives sent by Obama (via the BOG of course) to infiltrate DU.

We're paid by the post and we also get a bonus every time we use the rofl emoticon.

You didn't know?



You see? More money in my pocket!!



Funny how you throw around ridiculous accusations and accuse other people of being in Jr. High.

Hilarious!

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
100. If someone is paying either of you, they arent getting much for their money.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:51 PM
Feb 2014

I dont think you are getting paid.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
102. Any time someone posts something you disagree with...
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:56 PM
Feb 2014

just say they are a BOGer and you will win the argument. They don't even have to post in the BOG.

Just accuse them of being a BOGer and you've won!!!!

<<<<-----another bonus

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
106. Of course you missed my point. You dont ever disagree with me
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:03 PM
Feb 2014

you never commit yourself one way or other. That's my complaint. Are you here to only disparage anyone that dares to not submit to the loyalty you think the president deserves? I ask you guys to commit to whether you support fracking, cutting SS, the XL-pipeline, the TPP, but you refuse. In my opinion some are here only to disrupt.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
107. Do I support fracking?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:08 PM
Feb 2014

No.

Cutting SS?

No.

XL-Pipeline?

No

TPP?

No

Is that commitment enough?

<<<<----- another bonus!!!

I've stated many times that I disagreed with some of Obama's policies in the past...I disagreed with him when it came to drone strikes, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria etc....

I can post the links if you want.

You just failed to pay attention. You've created a fictitious poster in your mind and you think it's me.

Hilarious. Absolutely hilarious.

<<<<------- more money!!!

 

rhett o rick

(55,981 posts)
110. No links needed. I will take you at your word. It's possible that I misjudged you. If so, shame onme
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:15 PM
Feb 2014

But it's hard to get past that ridicule emoticon.

Number23

(24,544 posts)
147. Why are you even dignifiying that person's comment? No one here owes him/her anything
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:57 PM
Feb 2014

I don't even understand why you are responding to their bizarre and needless "demands" for you to produce positions on issues.

Cha

(291,552 posts)
120. I see you have a
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:49 PM
Feb 2014

scary net nanny on your case about where you should post and where you should not post.

My question is.. who anointed him the decider?

The BOG!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=forum&id=1102

Response to Cha (Reply #120)

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
170. If I'm not mistaken, your entrance into this thread was...
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:32 PM
Feb 2014

...a series of references to other posts people had made. That's some pretty strong projection.

Also, baseless accusations of stalking are, I think, a type of harassment in themselves.

Like the other poster above, I'd love to know what sentiment you were attempting to express with that TV image. Do you think the documents Greenwald cited are fakes?

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
142. Well...
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:49 PM
Feb 2014

When you engage in xenophobic racism, I WILL call you out



http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021347209

His words when referring to Libya and Libyans::


"backward, third world country"

"shitty little piece of sand"

"may the fleas of ten thousand camels infest your fucking armpits AND your crotches, you stupid fucks."

"your shitty prophet"

"Fuck Libya"
 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
184. You're goddamn right I was pissed off at Ambassador Stevens' murder. Looks like I was the only one.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:09 PM
Feb 2014

Judging by the aggressive pursuit (has this administration even interviewed any of the probable players? Or was it more important to jail a nobody living in Cerritos?) of his killers, there sure aren't many.

I would add that anyone with half a brain could see that my angry words were directed at the Libyans who planned and orchestrated the attack at ended in with the Ambassador's death, and those of Sean Smith, Tyrone Woods, and Glen Doherty, not to mention the grave injuries to people as of yet unnamed, and who undergo polygraph tests monthly to ensure they don't talk to the press. They weren't directed at all Libyans. I wouldn't expect someone possessed of your towering intellect to see that.

It still makes me sick to think that to this day the only person publicly named by the Obama Administration as having been involved in the death of Ambassador Stevens, and the ONLY person to have served a MINUTE in jail is a petty criminal who lives in Cerritos.

Yeah, I'm a xenophobic racist. And, I hang with the gunnerz (omg!) on occasion too. Aren't you the bright one...

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
104. Oh yes, I nearly forgot the little roly poly laughing guy. Lol, that one
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:58 PM
Feb 2014

stands out like a sore thumb!

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
149. Much of the middle of this thread is an example of exactly what those
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:59 PM
Feb 2014

documents show. It's really amazing to see it concentrated here when most folks replying must have been aware that the tactics they are displaying in this thread are the VERY TACTICS that COINTLPRO/and the Latest Document Release are warning about.

It's like there's no SHAME....JUST KEEP DOING IT!

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
176. Whoever orchestrates these campaign, and we have seen one of them exposed thoroughly
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:42 PM
Feb 2014

the one against Glenn Greenwald, are not too smart. I was surprised at how juvenile their tactics were. 'Find out if he has a wife, what Church he attends, if he has children'. I mean they could have googled all that info, or gone straight to his blog. And for this they get PAID, these security contractors.

To keep on doing it even after they have been exposed is just plain stupid. It's like being caught stealing candy as a child, denying it, then going back and doing it again while you are being watched. Lol.

Their game is up regardless of what they do and I know they think that repeating lies over and over again will eventually work.

What I don't get is, since they have failed so often due to the intelligence of their target 'audience', what are they trying to acomplish? Do they even KNOW? If anything, once people learned of this kind of targeting of Glenn Greenwald, eg, it only garnered SUPPORT for him, even from people who didn't previously know him, because in the end, Americans don't like these kinds of dirty tricks. They should remember the Right Wing attacks on Clinton, same exact tactics, but in the end, THEIR behavior was so disgusting, it turned the American people against THEM. And Clinton had more support, maybe more than he deserved, than he had when it all began.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
188. Interesting...what you say about these tactics causing more support
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:23 PM
Feb 2014

because people react to unfairness and dirty tactics when they are so obvious and "in your face."

Good Points. And, so many here and elsewhere have gone after both Greenwald and Snowden and yet the international community and others here in US are even more supportive of both. And both are winning awards. Yet...the trash keeps getting thrown on them...with some thinking if they repeat: "I haven't seen any more than Power Point Presentations" over and over again --somehow, that will create an overwhelming meme across the internet to discredit Snowden and Greenwald. If you give these people links...they refuse to read them and just keep the same refrain up over and over whenever the chance presents itself.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
191. I think it's just desperation. And as I said, they are not very imaginative people.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:35 PM
Feb 2014

They see how popular and successful Greenwald has become. This has to be a nighmare for those who bought the contract HB Gary was bidding on. And for the contractors who sold it to them, I believe it was BOA. They probably got a huge payment and are under intense pressure to succeed and failure means less business for them.

After all when they started the smear campaign against Greenwald, he wasn't very well known, just a Liberal Blogger with a fairly big following, many Right Wingers who would go to his comment section and try to shut him up regarding Bush.

Since they went after him, look what happened, rather than succeeding in discrediting him, he got a far WIDER audience, he was hired by the Guardian and was able to reach an international audience instead of the relatively small, liberal internet following he had before. THAT got him the Snowden leaks.

Now he has caught the attention of someone with enough money to start their OWN Independent news organization where his audience will be even BIGGER.

Lol, if I had taken out a contract for a smear campaign against him, I would want my money back. And if I was the idiot who got the contract, I would retire from the 'smear campaign business as a failure'. I wonder can you sue these Security Contractors who do these smear campaigns? I wish someone would, that would bring it all out into the open! But they can't, too much risk of the public finally learning all about these dirty tricks.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
235. HBGary, Palantir, Prism, Facebook & The Industrial Surveillance Complex
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 11:12 AM
Feb 2014

Sun Jun 23, 2013 at 11:19 AM PDT
HBGary, Palantir, Prism, Facebook & The Industrial Surveillance Complex

by LieparDestinFollow

Part 1 of several to come:

Lets begin a couple years back with the release of the hacked e-mails of defense contractor HBGary by Anonymous. Many readers will be familiar with these events as it was covered extensively on this site as well as many others. The Nation offers a refresher:

Two years ago, a batch of stolen e-mails revealed a plot by a set of three defense contractors (Palantir Technologies, Berico Technologies and HBGary Federal) to target activists, reporters, labor unions and political organizations. The plans— one concocted in concert with lawyers for the US Chamber of Commerce to sabotage left-leaning critics, like the Center for American Progress and the SEIU, and a separate proposal to “combat” WikiLeaks and its supporters, including Glenn Greenwald, on behalf of Bank of America— fell apart after reports of their existence were published online. But the episode serves as a reminder that the expanding spy industry could use its government-backed cyber-tools to harm ordinary Americans and political dissident groups.

“I think we need to highlight people like Glenn Greenwald. Glenn was critical in the Amazon to OVH [data center] transition and helped WikiLeaks provide access to information during the transition. It is this level of support we need to attack. These are established professionals that have a liberal bent, but ultimately most of them if pushed will choose professional preservation over cause, such is the mentality of most business professionals. Without the support of people like Glenn WikiLeaks would fold.”


HBGary was to be tasked with creating an army of sock-puppets to spread propaganda or infiltrate groups:

HBGary was part of a consortia that submitted a proposal to develop a “persona management” system for the United States Air Force, that would allow one user to control multiple online identities for commenting in social media spaces, thus giving the appearance of grassroots support or opposition to certain policies.
More at:

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/23/1218189/-HBGary-Palantir-Prism-Facebook-The-Industrial-Surveillance-Complex

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
190. He has been appropriated!
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:25 PM
Feb 2014

Lol, I thought he was cute until he was captured and used for nefarious purposes.

Poor guy, he's sort of like a prisoner of war, forced to do what his captors make him do.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
105. I found it extremely informative, and missed the entertainment value. Could you
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:01 PM
Feb 2014

point out the entertaining parts for us?

 

Marr

(20,317 posts)
17. And how do you suppose they attain that confidential data?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:08 PM
Feb 2014

Anyone who believes they use these ridiculously broad surveillance powers just to fight the bad guys from 24 is a colossal sucker.

sabrina 1

(62,325 posts)
118. THIS is what they are trying to hide. The REAL reason for the 'surveillance'
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:42 PM
Feb 2014

which has nothing to do with 'protecting the American people' from 'terror'. It was a ridiculous claim to begin with and all the attempts to 'explain' how this would help 'fight terror' when we had a perfect of example of how it DOENS'T with the Boston Bombing. Note how they hate it when you mention that terrible tragedy btw. Because it makes liars out of them.

It's a fantastic scheme for Corporations, getting tax payers to pay for their market research. Spying on the competition, doing it all over the world because THEY are Global Corps.

I can't wait to see the documents that must exist where they discuss BUSINESS as a result of the spying. Sooner or later they will emerge, and nothing will be done about it I'm afraid. A few words about how it was not 'criminal, but probably immoral' will be said, and no one will be held accountable.

Response to sabrina 1 (Reply #118)

Response to Oilwellian (Reply #18)

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
153. He's WIRED IN...and that's why he won't be fired. He's an example
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:04 PM
Feb 2014

of WIRED... And, his connections feed him...and who are his connections......?

Well....One can take a guess. You don't work in Big Time Corporate Media these days unless you have "The Connections."

Most of us here on DU for years figured that out. But, it's getting even more a "closed society" since the Banksters/Wall Street Criminals didn't get thrown into jail with the 2007-08 Meltdown hanging around their neck.

They are ALL STILL THERE....just payed a Bunch of Millions/Billions in Fines...but still keep their Millions in Bonus and Stock Shares while 99% Americans get "Austerity."

 

JaneyVee

(19,877 posts)
19. Do we have proof this is occurring, or just PowerPoint slides?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:18 PM
Feb 2014

Not saying it isn't occurring, but I would love to see actual evidence of this illegal activity taking place.

 

go west young man

(4,856 posts)
196. This is the really all the proof one needs.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:51 PM
Feb 2014

All those mini cities being built around DC aren't for nought. All the information is coming together at this point to form an easy to see picture. http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024546724 "Anatomy of the Deep State" Bill Moyers

It's beginning to to look like "House of Cards" is not too far off base with all the nefarious backdoor dealings taking place.

hootinholler

(26,449 posts)
177. My Sister has a blue heeler who is deaf
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:48 PM
Feb 2014

We decided it doesn't matter what we call him, so we make a point of calling him different names around people because the dog doesn't care, he ain't listening.

justiceischeap

(14,040 posts)
24. If you haven't already, you really need to read "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man"
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 02:54 PM
Feb 2014

It would appear what the US has been to third world nations, is being done from within the US at this point... but that could just be my hat talking.

hootinholler

(26,449 posts)
38. It's on the reading list
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:15 PM
Feb 2014

I might even have picked up a copy before my last move. ( I still have some book boxes left after two years. )

Maybe it's time to get it on kindle, but a paper copy would be more stable.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
58. And are those boxes in the garage?...lots of unpacked boxes in the garage?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:14 PM
Feb 2014

and did you refuse to pet your neighbors dog?...I thought so...

hootinholler

(26,449 posts)
61. Um why yes, they are sort of
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:20 PM
Feb 2014

Not a garage, but an unconditioned room in the back of the house. I think I have a stripper pole back there too (not set up).

As to the dog, it's my sister's and since he's deaf it doesn't matter what we call him.

ReRe

(10,597 posts)
67. After you read that one, read Naomi Klein's...
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:34 PM
Feb 2014

... The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism.

Fawke Em

(11,366 posts)
40. They do this to people, too.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:17 PM
Feb 2014

Every seen trolls out in force on Twitter, FB and other social media? Most of them are paid.

stillwaiting

(3,795 posts)
69. I would not be surprised by this.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:47 PM
Feb 2014

Do you have anything to substantiate this or is it just a hunch?

When I see the sheer volume and number of trollish posts saying the dumbest things possible online I feel completely disconnected from my fellow Americans.

If many of them are paid, then that would truly be Mission Accomplished for TPTB.

Keeping us divided, not united, I'm positive is a Top Priority for the Spooks. I'm sure they are very effective at what they do in a number of ways.

arikara

(5,562 posts)
211. I don't mind posting this again
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:24 AM
Feb 2014

it fits so well with this thread.

The 5 Rules of Propaganda

The Rule of Simplification: reducing all data to a simple confrontation between ‘Good and Bad’, ‘Friend and Foe’.
The Rule of Disfiguration: discrediting the opposition by crude smears and parodies.
The Rule of Transfusion: manipulating the consensus values of the target audience for one’s own ends.
The Rule of Unanimity: presenting one’s viewpoint as if it were the unanimous opinion of all right-thinking people: drawing the doubting individual into agreement by the appeal of star-performers, by social pressure, and by ‘psychological contagion’.
The Rule of Orchestration: endlessly repeating the same messages in different variations and combinations.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
273. Reminds me of this:
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:10 PM
Feb 2014
[font size=3]"All propaganda must be presented in a popular form and must fix its intellectual level so as not to be above the heads of the least intellectual of those to whom it is directed. Thus its purely intellectual level will have to be that of the lowest mental common denominator among the public it is desired to reach. "

<snip>

"But the most brilliant technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success."[/font]

Double Bonus Points for anyone who can ID the above quote.


[font color=white]---volume 1, chapter 6 of Mein Kampf (1925)[/font]

arikara

(5,562 posts)
299. He who must not be named
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 10:08 PM
Feb 2014

and yet is the architect of modern propaganda and control of the unwashed masses via "media".

 

fascisthunter

(29,381 posts)
47. Yeah, I noticed That
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:37 PM
Feb 2014

It really needs to be addressed harshly. I like reading your posts... very informative. Keep up the good fight, Cali!

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
60. I second that.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:18 PM
Feb 2014

In fact this post has a nice collection of people who I enjoy reading...and keeping up the good fight.

sibelian

(7,804 posts)
213. I agree with this.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 05:12 AM
Feb 2014

But I'm not sure what do do about it. It's silly to argue with them symmetrically as that's what they want.

sadoldgirl

(3,431 posts)
91. Hey cali, while I am rather new here
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:36 PM
Feb 2014

it did not much time to find several dubious posters here. My question is: why even bother to answer? I like your OPs,btw. At least they contribute to what I thought DU should be about.

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
152. Move along.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:02 PM
Feb 2014
Nothing to see here, folks.
All the Pros agree.
If you are concerned about Government Spying, you're just paranoid.
Big Brother really LOVES you,
and its ALL for your own good.


About that MetaData:

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
156. Aren't you tired of posting that out of context attempt at propaganda?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:08 PM
Feb 2014

"Move along. Nothing to see here, folks. All the Pros agree."

No, don't. Continue the stupid implications about everyone who doesn't hi-five your out of context nonsense.

"Big Brother really LOVES you,
and its ALL for your own good. "

Lame crap.



bvar22

(39,909 posts)
166. Now THAT was pathetic.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:27 PM
Feb 2014

You are slipping.
I'm used to better from you.
Have you been replaced?

I had a DOS 3.2 program in 1990 that repeated what someone else said,
and then added a comment like "Lame", or "Bullshit" at the end.
Kinda like one of those Magic 8-Balls.
Completely stupid program, but got some laughs from the peanut gallery
until they figured out that there was no intelligence at all behind the facade,
and it was the same thing, over & over.

I thought THAT program was lame back in 1989.



ProSense

(116,464 posts)
168. LOL!
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:29 PM
Feb 2014
You are slipping.
I'm used to better from you.
Have you been replaced?

I had a DOS 3.2 program in 1990 that repeated what someone else said,
and then added a comment like "Lame", or "Bullshit" at the end.
Kinda like one of those Magic 8-Balls.
Completely stupid program, but got some laughs from the peanut gallery
until they figured out that there was no intelligence at all behind the facade,
and it was the same thing, over & over.

I thought THAT program was lame back in 1989.

I suppose you think that's not "pathetic," even more than your previous lame crap?

Wait, you thought that was clever? Seriously?




bvar22

(39,909 posts)
258. Previous "lame crap."
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:39 PM
Feb 2014

A video clip of Joe Biden commenting about WHY we shouldn't trust our government with MetaData.
Here it is again.



Now why don't you enlighten us as to WHY Joe Biden's comments are "lame crap".
I'll wait.
.
.
.
.
.
.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
181. Maybe
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:03 PM
Feb 2014

"Way back in 2006...Hmmm, she held a different view then, one which I agreed with her. Now, not so much. "

...you shouldn't jump on the bandwagon of people who make stupid accusations because they have no idea what they're talking about (http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024353639#post151).

Here's a clue. I railed against Bush's illegal spying on Americans. Actual spying. This past comment
has been posted several times as an attempted "gotcha" to create the impression of a change in opinion, but it had nothing to do with metadata.

For example, this quote, "Spying on Americans was, is and will still be illegal," is about illegal warrantless wiretapping, and that was what Bush was accuse of.

The program was in fact a wide range of covert surveillance activities authorized by President Bush in the aftermath of 9/11. At that time, White House officials, led by Vice President Dick Cheney, had become convinced that FISA court procedures were too cumbersome and time-consuming to permit U.S. intelligence and law-enforcement agencies to quickly identify possible Qaeda terrorists inside the country. (Cheney's chief counsel, David Addington, referred to the FISA court in one meeting as that "obnoxious court," according to former assistant attorney general Jack Goldsmith.) Under a series of secret orders, Bush authorized the NSA for the first time to eavesdrop on phone calls and e-mails between the United States and a foreign country without any court review. The code name for the NSA collection activities—unknown to all but a tiny number of officials at the White House and in the U.S. intelligence community—was "Stellar Wind."

http://web.archive.org/web/20081216011008/http://www.newsweek.com/id/174601/output/print

Note, this is inside the U.S. and involves bypassing the FISA court to actually "eavesdrop."

Republicans fought to make that legal, and succeeded in doing so before Democrats were able to force an expiration of the law.

From a post last year:

There have been a number of media reports using the same Obama quote to basically claim that he once called out Bush, but then embraced the policy. They are intentionally conflating a quote about the PAA with his position on the 2008 FISA amendments, which he voted for. They are not the same thing. The PAA was a Republican effort to absolve Bush.

While the article mentions that Obama voted against the Protect America Act (http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=1&vote=00309), there is no mention of the fact that the Act expired in early 2008.

Senator Mitch McConnell introduced the act on August 1, 2007, during the 110th United States Congress. On August 3, it was passed in the Senate with an amendment, 60–28 (record vote number 309).[12] On August 4, it passed the House of Representatives 227-183 (roll number 836).[12] On August 5, it was signed by President Bush, becoming Public Law No. 110-055. On February 17, 2008, it expired due to sunset provision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protect_America_Act_of_2007#Legislative_history


The amendments to FISA made by the Act expire 180 days after enactment, except that any order in effect on the date of enactment remains in effect until the date of expiration of such order and such orders can be reauthorized by the FISA Court.”[38] The Act expired on February 17, 2008.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act#Protect_America_Act_of_2007


Here's Bush's statement at the time: http://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/news/releases/2008/02/20080214-4.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023026724

bvar22

(39,909 posts)
259. Your "position" is crystal clear, and has been for a long time.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:49 PM
Feb 2014
[font size=3]Its OK if Obama does it.[/font]


ProSense (111,995 posts)

"I don't think Obama is going to cut Social Security.
I can't be sure, but either way he's got my vote."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021128218


I know this is incomprehensible to you,
but most of us have internal Moral Compasses,
Lines we will not cross,
and deep concerns that focus on Policy, Issues, and the Direction of the Democratic Party.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
260. LOL!
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 02:18 PM
Feb 2014
Its OK if Obama does it.

ProSense (111,995 posts)

"I don't think Obama is going to cut Social Security.
I can't be sure, but either way he's got my vote."

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021128218


I know this is incomprehensible to you,
but most of us have internal Moral Compasses,
Lines we will not cross,
and deep concerns that focus on Policy, Issues, and the Direction of the Democratic Party.

Which part do you object to, believing Obama isn't going to cut Social Security (he hasn't) or holding one's nose to vote for Obama (or against the other guy)?

I mean, isn't that what most of you with your superior "internal Moral Compasses" did?



Old and In the Way

(37,540 posts)
277. The lessons of 2000 will never be learned by those willing to
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 06:44 PM
Feb 2014

"vote their conscience" instead of the current political reality. That's how Bush got elected. And forget Florida, one only has to look at the NH results that actually threw the Presidency to Bush. Obama is not perfect, but he is light years better than any Republican who will be a serious candidate in 2016. And Supreme Court...if you hate HRC, think how our laws will be totally screwed for generations should a Republican get to the WH. I guarantee those Koch endorsed nominees will be to the right of Scalia, Thomas, and Alioto.

 

OnyxCollie

(9,958 posts)
159. Cass Sunstein thinks it's a wonderfully effective method of message control.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:14 PM
Feb 2014
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1084585

3. Cognitive infiltration

Rather than taking the continued existence of the hard core as a constraint, and
addressing itself solely to the third-party mass audience, government might undertake
(legal) tactics for breaking up the tight cognitive clusters of extremist theories, arguments
and rhetoric that are produced by the hard core and reinforce it in turn. One promising
tactic is cognitive infiltration of extremist groups. By this we do not mean 1960s-style
infiltration with a view to surveillance and collecting information, possibly for use in
future prosecutions. Rather, we mean that government efforts might succeed in
weakening or even breaking up the ideological and epistemological complexes that
constitute these networks and groups.

How might this tactic work? Recall that extremist networks and groups,
including the groups that purvey conspiracy theories, typically suffer from a kind of
crippled epistemology. Hearing only conspiratorial accounts of government behavior,
their members become ever more prone to believe and generate such accounts.
Informational and reputational cascades, group polarization, and selection effects suggest
that the generation of ever-more-extreme views within these groups can be dampened or
reversed by the introduction of cognitive diversity. We suggest a role for government
efforts, and agents, in introducing such diversity. Government agents (and their allies)
might enter chat rooms, online social networks, or even real-space groups and attempt to
undermine percolating conspiracy theories by raising doubts about their factual premises,
causal logic or implications for political action.

In one variant, government agents would openly proclaim, or at least make no
effort to conceal, their institutional affiliations. A recent newspaper story recounts that
Arabic-speaking Muslim officials from the State Department have participated in
dialogues at radical Islamist chat rooms and websites in order to ventilate arguments not
usually heard among the groups that cluster around those sites, with some success.68 In
another variant, government officials would participate anonymously or even with false
identities. Each approach has distinct costs and benefits; the second is riskier but
potentially brings higher returns. In the former case, where government officials
participate openly as such, hard-core members of the relevant networks, communities and
conspiracy-minded organizations may entirely discount what the officials say, right from
the beginning. The risk with tactics of anonymous participation, conversely, is that if the
tactic becomes known, any true member of the relevant groups who raises doubts may be
suspected of government connections. Despite these difficulties, the two forms of
cognitive infiltration offer different risk-reward mixes and are both potentially useful
instruments.

There is a similar tradeoff along another dimension: whether the infiltration
should occur in the real world, through physical penetration of conspiracist groups by
undercover agents, or instead should occur strictly in cyberspace. The latter is safer, but
potentially less productive. The former will sometimes be indispensable, where the
groups that purvey conspiracy theories (and perhaps themselves formulate conspiracies)
formulate their views through real-space informational networks rather than virtual
networks. Infiltration of any kind poses well-known risks: perhaps agents will be asked
to perform criminal acts to prove their bona fides, or (less plausibly) will themselves
become persuaded by the conspiratorial views they are supposed to be undermining;
perhaps agents will be unmasked and harmed by the infiltrated group. But the risks are
generally greater for real-world infiltration, where the agent is exposed to more serious
harms.


You can tell him the shit's getting out of hand here. He's also looking for suggestions "for ways the Obama administration can continue to streamline and eliminate regulations."

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
164. Oooh, a 2008 paper by some guy
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:23 PM
Feb 2014

Funny, that did nothing to convince me that this isn't being used as a tactic by those who want to call everyone who disagrees with them hacks.

I mean, the evidence of this silly behavior exists.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024523599#post89
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024523599#post195



 

OnyxCollie

(9,958 posts)
169. "Some guy" LOL!
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:32 PM
Feb 2014


You're on fire tonight!

"Some guy" was the administrator of White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs one year after writing that paper.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Sunstein

On January 7, 2009, the Wall Street Journal reported that Sunstein would be named to head the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs (OIRA).[8] That news generated controversy among progressive legal scholars[9] and environmentalists.[10] Sunstein's confirmation was long blocked because of controversy over allegations about his political and academic views. On September 9, 2009, the Senate voted for cloture on Sunstein's nomination as Administrator of the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, Office of Management and Budget. The motion passed in a 63–35 vote. The Senate confirmed Sunstein on September 10, 2009 in a 57–40 vote.


ProSense

(116,464 posts)
171. LOL!
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:36 PM
Feb 2014

"'Some guy' was the administrator of White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs one year after writing that paper."

Evidence in the mind of someone desperately seeking to justify nonsensical crap.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024523599#post89
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024523599#post195

Maybe you're projecting?



193. They aren't trying to say anything.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:13 PM
Feb 2014

They are just trying to disrupt this conversation that is so obviously due. There are a handful of posters who are clearly more dedicated to posting in an online forum than any person who isn't doing it professionally could be. They post nothing but pro-government propaganda and stalk the forums trying to shut down discussion of people they label conspiracy theorists.

Sunstein was kind enough to lay out his plan to cognitively infiltrate what he termed as conspiracy theory clusters, and then he was installed into power. Now we have obvious highly polished shills posting here, drowning out any attempt critically look at how our government operates - particularly its foreign policy. This is a case of 2 + 2 = 4.

ProSense

(116,464 posts)
218. No, I said what
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 09:32 AM
Feb 2014

I fucking meant.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024523599#post89
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024523599#post195

Maybe you're projecting?

Welcome to DU.

They are just trying to disrupt this conversation that is so obviously due. There are a handful of posters who are clearly more dedicated to posting in an online forum than any person who isn't doing it professionally could be. They post nothing but pro-government propaganda and stalk the forums trying to shut down discussion of people they label conspiracy theorists.

Maybe you're also projecting?
 

DeSwiss

(27,137 posts)
63. K&R
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 04:21 PM
Feb 2014
- Welcome to the Nakatomi Building. As you can now see, the crime has been in-progress since 1913. Feel free to join in at anything!

Thank you for your participation!!!

 

Purveyor

(29,876 posts)
79. Related: How Covert Agents Infiltrate the Internet to Manipulate, Deceive, and Destroy Reputations
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:19 PM
Feb 2014
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101686113

By Glenn Greenwald 24 Feb 2014

One of the many pressing stories that remains to be told from the Snowden archive is how western intelligence agencies are attempting to manipulate and control online discourse with extreme tactics of deception and reputation-destruction. It’s time to tell a chunk of that story, complete with the relevant documents.

Over the last several weeks, I worked with NBC News to publish a series of articles about “dirty trick” tactics used by GCHQ’s previously secret unit, JTRIG (Joint Threat Research Intelligence Group). These were based on four classified GCHQ documents presented to the NSA and the other three partners in the English-speaking “Five Eyes” alliance. Today, we at the Intercept are publishing another new JTRIG document, in full, entitled “The Art of Deception: Training for Online Covert Operations”.

By publishing these stories one by one, our NBC reporting highlighted some of the key, discrete revelations: the monitoring of YouTube and Blogger, the targeting of Anonymous with the very same DDoS attacks they accuse “hacktivists” of using, the use of “honey traps” (luring people into compromising situations using sex) and destructive viruses. But, here, I want to focus and elaborate on the overarching point revealed by all of these documents: namely, that these agencies are attempting to control, infiltrate, manipulate, and warp online discourse, and in doing so, are compromising the integrity of the internet itself.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
155. YES! Greenwald's Site has commenters mentioning ASSANGE Honey Trap!
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:08 PM
Feb 2014

His original article is a good read but the Comments are fascinating for information...and links..

Oilwellian

(12,647 posts)
92. Here's an excellent comment left on Greenwald's page
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 05:37 PM
Feb 2014

Don’t speak to me now of Trust.

Trust is the basis of cooperation and society. Trust maximizes the efficiency of pooled labor and specialization. Trust builds up the foundation of science and technology.

Trust minimizes energy expenditure. Say it once more. Trust minimizes energy expenditure.

The total amount of labor, capital, and energy we have flushed down the toilet because of the actions of the NSA and our current leadership is mind boggling.

We will lay stagnant for a generation compared to the growth we would have achieved. Whatever hope we have as individuals and as a species is inextricably tied to trust and cooperation. To squander our trust is to squander our humanity. We are cooperative and social beings. Trust is the basis of our empathy.

Trust increases government’s ability provide positive and productive services to the citizenry. How many decades of progress have we thrown away? Government as a brand is now all but dead. Imagine how much energy will be spent just to rehabilitate the idea of government, just to regain trust. A generation lost.

We are only beginning to appreciate the size and ramifications of this debacle.

G_j

(40,364 posts)
108. right on
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:10 PM
Feb 2014

and of course, once trust has been broken, it's very hard, if not impossible, to restore.

TheKentuckian

(23,947 posts)
194. Fucking A. I strongly believe in government's ability to be a positive force in people's lives.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:17 PM
Feb 2014

This does not sell my position, it sells it out in an ugly spiral of cynicism.

Fucking Miracle Grow for anti government fervor. Why the hell would someone desire such things? Hard sell folks who need to be convinced at all.
Instead the risk of losing folks leaning your way is far greater than any plausible draw.

It is just super wrongheaded from a democratic and I had always believed a Democratic point of view. You willfully undermine the trust of the people.

Fucking stupid.

woo me with science

(32,139 posts)
243. " I strongly believe in government's ability to be a positive force in people's lives."
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 12:02 PM
Feb 2014

I strongly believe in government's ability to be a positive force in people's lives.
This does not sell my position, it sells it out in an ugly spiral of cynicism.


Thank you.

TheKentuckian

(23,947 posts)
296. How did this become rocket science? It didn't. I'm starting to wonder if all the screeching about
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 09:00 PM
Feb 2014

libertarians is just projection because the same folks have no bones about undermining faith in government and display nearly nonexistent concern about actual people, often calling fundamental needs as "ponies" and poo pooing accountability and transparency will rallying around multinational corporations.

Some of those hollering "fuck Ron Paul" seem to have the fewest degrees of separation from his wretched ass other than the few things he at least presents/pretends as correct on like the drug war, imperialism, and natural rights.

 

reddread

(6,896 posts)
297. if you consider what might happen if anti-surveillance, pro-privacy and freedom voters coalesced
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 09:34 PM
Feb 2014

I think the libertarian "hatred" makes more political sense.

TheKentuckian

(23,947 posts)
298. Seems they like the corporate dominance, fuck the environment, fuck the people aspects just fine.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 09:50 PM
Feb 2014

That's the part that blows chunks. The "fuck Ron Paul" shit shows up in security state discussions, war mongering, and propping up the failed drug war mostly.

starroute

(12,977 posts)
111. Greenwald himself has been the target of these same techniques
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:16 PM
Feb 2014

That's one thing that strikes me, and I wonder how much his seeming reticence in writing about this presentation is a result of having been affected personally.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20110209/22340513034/leaked-hbgary-documents-show-plan-to-spread-wikileaks-propaganda-bofa-attack-glenn-greenwald.shtml

Feb 10th 2011

You may have followed the recent story involving a security firm called HBGary Federal, in which the company's CEO, Aaron Barr, told the Financial Times this weekend that he had secretly "infiltrated" the non-group Anonymous and identified its leadership... and that he was planning to hand over the info to law enforcement. Of course, it was pretty questionable how accurate the information is, considering Anonymous isn't actually a "group" with a hierarchy at all. It wouldn't be surprising to find out that there were some folks who were heavily active, but that's different than claiming there's "leadership." Either way, Anonymous did what Anonymous does when someone does something it doesn't like: they hacked. Beyond taking over Barr's Twitter account and revealing all sorts of private info and taking over various web servers connected to HBGary Federal, it also released 44,000 of the company's emails. . . .

There are two key slides in the presentation. The first is a totally bizarre plan of attack on Salon journalist Glenn Greenwald, who has been an outspoken supporter of Wikileaks. However, these three companies seem to think that they can pressure him to give up supporting Wikileaks in this case and that will somehow solve a big part of the issue.

According to the Tech Herald, the word "disrupted" in the final presentation was actually written as "attacked" in earlier drafts of the presentation. This suggests some pretty confused thinking on the part of these firms. The idea that Wikileaks would "fold" without people like Glenn supporting them seems pretty silly, as does the idea that Glenn would suddenly give up the cause. Still, it's pretty freaking ominous for the firm to seriously be suggesting that it can somehow put pressure on Greenwald that would lead him to "choose professional preservation over cause." It makes you wonder just what level of underhanded tricks they were thinking about pulling.


 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
116. Big Brother and Big Biz been playing social engineer for decades now.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 06:35 PM
Feb 2014

Don't you like the 13 different brands of toilet paper to choose from? You must have something against freedumb! We have to call security on you now?

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
135. Congratulations, fellow leftists. we are validated, and vindicated, in so many ways.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 08:03 PM
Feb 2014

Not that we ever had any doubt.


Taciturnus Consensu

Zorra

(27,670 posts)
167. Glad you like it, KoKo.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:29 PM
Feb 2014

I made that one back when the Anti-Justice Movement trolls were out in force against Occupy.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
206. This is one hell of a long thread.
Wed Feb 26, 2014, 01:30 AM
Feb 2014

But I tell you there is a lot of good stuff in it, and very enlightining...I am glad I took the time to read most of it.

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