General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsEthnic Russian persecution in Ukraine is the new incubator babies.
In other news the only ethnic Russians persecuted en mass were in Moscow.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)impressions.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It really does change the strategic calculations regarding going to war with an opponent armed with those sort of weapons, why else is Iran getting even regular nukes considered be such a bad thing..
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Adrahil
(13,340 posts)Is that George Bush was a. Sonovabitch (I agree), or that it's ok for Putin to do what he want?
I'm not into hair shirt arguments about because Bush did bad things we shouldn't ever act to oppose a tyrant.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)YMMV of course.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)tblue37
(64,979 posts)further. One *certain* bit of evidence that Saddam had NO WMDs is precisely that the US invaded Iraq.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)But what would we do if the North tried to seize some bit of the South?
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)And heavily armed borders, with round the clock surveillance, and millions of forced conscripted individuals.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)When the US has a superior missile defense system and they would be wiped out pretty much instantly (the whole point of MAD is once someone goes to that level you respond in kind)?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)There is always a non-zero chance that any given military action between nuclear armed powers will devolve into an exchange of nuclear weapons.
Does the term Pyrrhic victory have meaning for you?
There is no significant defense against nuclear armed ICBMs on either side.
We couldn't defeat 12th century goatherds in Afghanistan in a baker's dozen years, on what planet do you think the US will be able to prevail militarily against Russia on their own damn turf or right next door to it?
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)MAD is probably the best thing we've ever had for peace, as fucked up as it sounds, and it's almost certainly why the US isn't meddling.
But Russia is using this absurd pretext to build a geopolitical Iron Curtain.
If Ukraine decides to fight back against further incursions you can't blame them, and they would not be triggering a nuclear war. If polarization happens, you cannot blame the civilians in Ukraine, because it's being fed by Russian interests to create this phantom.
The US defense system is probably far better than we've ever let on. When it was failing under Star Wars, yeah, it was a joke, but suddenly we managed to not hear anything else about it. There has not been many success stories for it.
SBIRS is real, it works, the US has not revealed the extent to which it works. The US military and intelligence space budget completely dwarfs NASA's own space budget. The 80s and 90s criticisms of Star Wars were valid, no doubt, we didn't have the computing power or technology to achieve the goals. The technology used now is likely far beyond any critical assumptions about anti-missile defense. It's why Russia is really upset with the US building anti-missile defense in the Baltic states.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine#Lack_of_discrimination
It's all a facade.
stevenleser
(32,886 posts)Particularly if they opposed the war in Iraq. You either oppose unprovoked wars of aggression, or you don't.
International law is pretty clear about under what conditions you can go to war with someone else. Those conditions were not satisfied with the Iraq war and those conditions are not satisfied in Ukraine.
Those DUers who are attempting to spin this into an OK thing for Putin to do are supporting a war crime.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Autumn
(44,745 posts)okaawhatever
(9,453 posts)few long term DUers, some of them were posting Russian media sources that are, shall we say...less than truthful. We have to remember that in addition to the incubator babies false testimony scandal there was an $11 million dollar P.R. contract courtesy of the Kuwaiti government. Some folks aren't here because they're Democrats.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)And in some cases people take a position if they perceive it makes them appear more left or more appropriately part of the echo chamber. Even if in this case it most obviously does not. It really does not. Both sides are shit. If you deem it necessary to pick a side, pick EU for cultural reasons and to get out of Russian hegemony. But backing or defending Putin invading a country yet again? C'mon! Even people who see it as imperialism say it's better that it's "regional" or some such. Some even see there being a positive outcome. I can't see it either way.
Austerity, either through further subjugation and theft of resources via Russian oligarchs, or via the IMF, is in the works for Ukrainians. It's just a matter who gets to feel it the most.
Igel
(35,191 posts)Authentic. Observable. Measurable.
Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can really hurt me. And fears? Whoa.
Think of it as homeopathic warfare. The less actual aggression the greater the suffering. Should peace break out billions will drop to the ground, dead, from the mere shock.
Putin's a dick. Tator. I certainly don't advocate military involvement, but kicking Russia out of the G-8 is a good idea.