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Ethnic Russian persecution in Ukraine is the new incubator babies. (Original Post) joshcryer Mar 2014 OP
You have it....and look how the Putin cheer squad on this board are doing their Neville Chamberlain msanthrope Mar 2014 #1
Neville Chamberlain didn't live in a world with thermonuclear weapons Fumesucker Mar 2014 #2
Yeah, apparently it means nuclear-armed bullies get to do whatever they want... NT Adrahil Mar 2014 #3
Indeed Fumesucker Mar 2014 #4
I'm not sure of your argument. Adrahil Mar 2014 #5
I'm not fond of looking like a hypocrite so I try to avoid giving that impression Fumesucker Mar 2014 #6
That's fair. But it's not like Bush is President anymore. NT Adrahil Mar 2014 #10
Of course. See: N. Korea. Its nukes could vitrify Seoul, so we push N. Korea this far--and no tblue37 Mar 2014 #9
Without a doubt, there is some truth to that. Adrahil Mar 2014 #11
The obvious solution is to surround all countries with mines. joshcryer Mar 2014 #13
Who or where would Russia nuke? joshcryer Mar 2014 #15
You don't even risk it Fumesucker Mar 2014 #17
I'm not saying we would do so. joshcryer Mar 2014 #18
Ethnic Russians in Ukraine are not discriminated against, even. joshcryer Mar 2014 #12
Yep, we need to remember the names of the DUers doing this. They have no credibility at all. stevenleser Mar 2014 #7
Fully agree with you and OP on this Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #14
Please make a list. And share that list. Autumn Mar 2014 #16
I think you'll find that most of them aren't long term DUers, but rather paid propagandists. Of the okaawhatever Mar 2014 #19
People are falling for propaganda. joshcryer Mar 2014 #20
Hey, the perceived fears are very real. Igel Mar 2014 #8
Agreed nolkyz Mar 2014 #21
 

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)
1. You have it....and look how the Putin cheer squad on this board are doing their Neville Chamberlain
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 10:45 AM
Mar 2014

impressions.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
2. Neville Chamberlain didn't live in a world with thermonuclear weapons
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 10:53 AM
Mar 2014

It really does change the strategic calculations regarding going to war with an opponent armed with those sort of weapons, why else is Iran getting even regular nukes considered be such a bad thing..



 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
5. I'm not sure of your argument.
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 11:00 AM
Mar 2014

Is that George Bush was a. Sonovabitch (I agree), or that it's ok for Putin to do what he want?

I'm not into hair shirt arguments about because Bush did bad things we shouldn't ever act to oppose a tyrant.

tblue37

(64,979 posts)
9. Of course. See: N. Korea. Its nukes could vitrify Seoul, so we push N. Korea this far--and no
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 02:07 PM
Mar 2014

further. One *certain* bit of evidence that Saddam had NO WMDs is precisely that the US invaded Iraq.

 

Adrahil

(13,340 posts)
11. Without a doubt, there is some truth to that.
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 02:15 PM
Mar 2014

But what would we do if the North tried to seize some bit of the South?

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
13. The obvious solution is to surround all countries with mines.
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:46 PM
Mar 2014

And heavily armed borders, with round the clock surveillance, and millions of forced conscripted individuals.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
15. Who or where would Russia nuke?
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:48 PM
Mar 2014

When the US has a superior missile defense system and they would be wiped out pretty much instantly (the whole point of MAD is once someone goes to that level you respond in kind)?

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
17. You don't even risk it
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 09:34 PM
Mar 2014

There is always a non-zero chance that any given military action between nuclear armed powers will devolve into an exchange of nuclear weapons.

Does the term Pyrrhic victory have meaning for you?

There is no significant defense against nuclear armed ICBMs on either side.

We couldn't defeat 12th century goatherds in Afghanistan in a baker's dozen years, on what planet do you think the US will be able to prevail militarily against Russia on their own damn turf or right next door to it?

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
18. I'm not saying we would do so.
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 10:34 PM
Mar 2014

MAD is probably the best thing we've ever had for peace, as fucked up as it sounds, and it's almost certainly why the US isn't meddling.

But Russia is using this absurd pretext to build a geopolitical Iron Curtain.

If Ukraine decides to fight back against further incursions you can't blame them, and they would not be triggering a nuclear war. If polarization happens, you cannot blame the civilians in Ukraine, because it's being fed by Russian interests to create this phantom.

The US defense system is probably far better than we've ever let on. When it was failing under Star Wars, yeah, it was a joke, but suddenly we managed to not hear anything else about it. There has not been many success stories for it.

SBIRS is real, it works, the US has not revealed the extent to which it works. The US military and intelligence space budget completely dwarfs NASA's own space budget. The 80s and 90s criticisms of Star Wars were valid, no doubt, we didn't have the computing power or technology to achieve the goals. The technology used now is likely far beyond any critical assumptions about anti-missile defense. It's why Russia is really upset with the US building anti-missile defense in the Baltic states.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
12. Ethnic Russians in Ukraine are not discriminated against, even.
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 08:43 PM
Mar 2014
According to the Institute of Sociology surveys conducted yearly between 1995 and 2005, the percentage of respondents who have encountered cases of ethnic-based discrimination against Russians during the preceding year has consistently been low (mostly in single digits), with no noticeable difference when compared with the number of incidents directed against any other nation, including the Ukrainians and the Jews.[39] According to the 2007 Comparative Survey of Ukraine and Europe only 0.1% of Ukrainian residents consider themselves belonging to a group which is discriminated by nationality.[37]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Ukraine#Lack_of_discrimination

It's all a facade.
 

stevenleser

(32,886 posts)
7. Yep, we need to remember the names of the DUers doing this. They have no credibility at all.
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 11:15 AM
Mar 2014

Particularly if they opposed the war in Iraq. You either oppose unprovoked wars of aggression, or you don't.

International law is pretty clear about under what conditions you can go to war with someone else. Those conditions were not satisfied with the Iraq war and those conditions are not satisfied in Ukraine.

Those DUers who are attempting to spin this into an OK thing for Putin to do are supporting a war crime.

okaawhatever

(9,453 posts)
19. I think you'll find that most of them aren't long term DUers, but rather paid propagandists. Of the
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 10:49 PM
Mar 2014

few long term DUers, some of them were posting Russian media sources that are, shall we say...less than truthful. We have to remember that in addition to the incubator babies false testimony scandal there was an $11 million dollar P.R. contract courtesy of the Kuwaiti government. Some folks aren't here because they're Democrats.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
20. People are falling for propaganda.
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 03:59 AM
Mar 2014

And in some cases people take a position if they perceive it makes them appear more left or more appropriately part of the echo chamber. Even if in this case it most obviously does not. It really does not. Both sides are shit. If you deem it necessary to pick a side, pick EU for cultural reasons and to get out of Russian hegemony. But backing or defending Putin invading a country yet again? C'mon! Even people who see it as imperialism say it's better that it's "regional" or some such. Some even see there being a positive outcome. I can't see it either way.

Austerity, either through further subjugation and theft of resources via Russian oligarchs, or via the IMF, is in the works for Ukrainians. It's just a matter who gets to feel it the most.

Igel

(35,191 posts)
8. Hey, the perceived fears are very real.
Sun Mar 2, 2014, 01:47 PM
Mar 2014

Authentic. Observable. Measurable.

Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can really hurt me. And fears? Whoa.


Think of it as homeopathic warfare. The less actual aggression the greater the suffering. Should peace break out billions will drop to the ground, dead, from the mere shock.

 

nolkyz

(55 posts)
21. Agreed
Mon Mar 3, 2014, 04:23 AM
Mar 2014

Putin's a dick. Tator. I certainly don't advocate military involvement, but kicking Russia out of the G-8 is a good idea.

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