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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsDelicious Wingnut Outrage: Team Obama wins fight to have Christian home-school family deported
Just had to post that Fuxx News headline. Yummy bitter tears from wingnuts across the web.
Uwe and Hannelore Romeike came to the United States in 2008 seeking political asylum. They fled their German homeland in the face of religious persecution for homeschooling their children.
<snip>
The Romeikes were initially given asylum, but the Obama administration objected – claiming that German laws that outlaw homeschooling do not constitute persecution
<snip>
On Monday, the Supreme Court declined to hear the Romeike’s appeal – paving the way for the Christian family of eight to be deported.
“I think this is a part of the Obama administration’s overall campaign to crush religious freedom in this country,” said Michael Farris, chairman of the Home School Legal Defense Association. His organization is representing family.
<snip>
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/03/03/team-obama-wins-fight-to-have-christian-home-school-family-deported/
don't let the door hit you ass on the way out, you poor wittle persecuted Cwistians.
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el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)should make you eligible for asylum in the U.S because it's "persecution" ?
el_bryanto
(11,804 posts)AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)If they take your children away from you because you want to home school, that does strike me as possible persecution.
tularetom
(23,664 posts)I don't think any home schooled job applicant should be allowed to claim he or she is a HS graduate without passing a fairly rigorous and comprehensive examination covering the subjects taught to HS students in public schools.
Not some bullshit bible quiz either.
It's probably a good way to keep some misfits out of the public school system.
Andy823
(11,495 posts)At least that's what I understand in Washington state. Not sure, but I would think it would be nation wide. My nephew was home schooled and that's what he had to do. Same as if one drops out of school they need to get a GED for most jobs, or to go on to college.
Sancho
(9,067 posts)Just keep that in mind. You can still go to a community college, get an AA and transfer, but many schools won't take a freshman with a GED now.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)That would give our young-in's a chance to some "normalcy" while they are growing up so they don't turn into racist ignorant thumpers later in life!
Everyone in the same fucking melting pot please!
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)anyone. Virtually every single one of those climate deniers and creationist believers and that whole crowd has a high school education, according to our national stats.
Iow, don't depend on the HS educ to do what you are suggesting, because all, and I do mean all, the evidence says it doesn't.
avebury
(10,952 posts)guarantee that a child gains a quality education. Just like attending a public school that pushes kids through the system does not guarantee that they get the best education either.
It all comes down to the curriculum taught to kids and making sure that nutty theories are not embedded in the schoolwork. It also comes down to making sure that kids actually learn the classroom material, educational problems are diagnosed and properly dealt with, and that the needs of the children come first over shoving them to the next teacher. It comes down to parents being invested in their children's education and not cheating them out of learning opportunities by siding with their little darlings over the teachers who do their best to teach the children. Childhood is when children can make mistakes and learn from them so that by the time they become adults they have an idea of how society functions. Coddling them too much can send them the wrong message, cheating is ok, Mom & Dad and fix any problem, personal responsibility - what is that? You see that when you read stories of kids being caught cheating, the teacher holds them accountable, parents bitch to the school and the school (instead of siding with the teacher) backs the parents and makes the teacher redo the kid's grades.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)they live in, and especially how and whether their guardians, whoever it is, are educated.
I learned that in school where we were taught inside, then went outside where parents were teaching their kids hate by encouraging them to fight, turn over buses, etc. And the schools pretty much stayed out of it.
A whole lot of what is done wants to ignore the part outside because it is hard and expensive, and big people are a lot less easy to manipulate, and they sometimes ask questions which are inconvenient to answer. <G> But then when we don't get the results we expect, we blame the kids, the teachers, the taxpayers. But if the parents don't think it important and serious, something worth respect, it likely won't be treated that way. And if the schools don't treat the parents with respect, not just tolerate them, then they can't expect the same in return.
There are places where there is more expansion of that concept to welcome the home into the process, quit telling people they have graduated, and really embrace the "lifelong learning" that schools give lip-service to. When one finds it they can see where this affects some of the things that matter most in ways that traditional structures can't. But it's difficult, a hard thing to maintain.
Not saying even possible in some cases, but there is a lot of learning that takes place outside of school that we lose the opportunity to be involved in because of our structure, and the great walls we build.
Rowan16
(1 post)I do not believe that the climate change we are currently experiencing is primarily a result of man's activities, and I would consider myself a creationist more so than an evolutionist, though my personal beliefs do draw from both camps. I do have a high school education, and I also have a Bachelor's degree in physics. I have also published scientific papers.
I am a committed Christian, and I can tell you that most Christians I know have at least a University education, and many of them have Master's degrees or PHDs. We all hold different beliefs. Some of us believe in Anthropogenic global warming, and some of us believe that the world climate is entirely stable. Some of us believe in the theory of evolution, and some of us believe that the world and everything in it was created in literally 7 days. One thing I have found to hold pretty true across the board: Most of us have an understanding of Anthropogenic global warming, and most of us understand evolution at least as well as those who believe it. We have to. Most of us have spent a considerable amount of time questioning our own beliefs in the middle of a world that thinks what we believe is foolish. Most of us have had to weigh searching for the truth with fitting in with our peers. My beliefs about my religion and about my world have not been arrived at lightly, and I question and revise them constantly as new information is given me.
If I were living in a country that I felt was trying to teach my children to blindly accept what the state taught as good and right, and what my family valued as wrong, then I would home-school or flee. I would do this if I felt the state was trying to teach my children that my religion was evil, and I would do this if I thought they were trying to teach my children to not ask questions about the world around them.
I can't speak for the German family. I haven't been able to find information on exactly what the German schools were teaching that they found so dreadful they had to flee the country, but I do respect their decision. I am greatful to live in a country where homeschooling is legal. As long as the children can pass the same tests given to their publicly schooled peers, I see no issue with homeschooling for any reason.
jtuck004
(15,882 posts)by a long mile, however, but perhaps that was because it was directed somewhere else.
Someone suggested that our problems would be lessened if there was MORE public schooling, and I pointed out that we have all the racists, and homophobes, and creationists, and, well, the list would never be long enough for some, but we have ALL those people and yet we put more people through pubic school than nearly anyone.
And by the time they get to Teabagger age, a far higher portion of them HAVE high school diplomas with a smattering of GED's than nearly any group out there.
So just getting more public school education graduates is not going to solve our problems. A lot of learning comes from the environment outside the school, and if one doesn't reach that, they will miss affecting how it is shaped. For good or bad. Didn't have a thing to say about your house specifically.
Just so you know, my schooling was in folk schools, so I have a little different (broader?) concept of "home school", and I am a big fan, so I am not sure but that maybe you were replying to someone else.
We would agree on not teaching people that they must accept things blindly, including any religion at all. I don''t believe in ghosts, and I don't have anything against people who do as long as they keep it to themselves and out of my life and the lives of others.
aznativ
(69 posts)will make them into bible thumping racists?
jmowreader
(50,556 posts)Chan790
(20,176 posts)The public education system is America's most profound failure of its citizenry.
If I wanted to have anti-intellectual sub-literate morons with grandiose unhealthy self-esteem, I would raised them to be so.
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)there was no such thing as home schooling. It was called "truancy." 
justiceischeap
(14,040 posts)I know some people that homeschool because their kids get bullied, I know some people that homeschool because they feel their kids will get a better education/be safer/etc. but I don't know anyone that homeschools because of religious reasons.
SheilaT
(23,156 posts)to an independent school because of bullying.
Nay
(12,051 posts)dozens of reasons to homeschool besides religion.
mopinko
(70,088 posts)supreme court case that affirmed the right to home school was a based on the religious freedom aspect of it. lots of people do it for religious reasons. lots of fundie churches give a lot of support as pressure to homeschool.
proudretiredvet
(312 posts)I have seen the result of some of the religious home schooling. Sometimes it works and sometimes it is a wreck.
In cali, (I know our system here) the kids are tested to make sure that the home schooling is being taught to grade level, that they know what they are supposed to know for their grade.
When the home school thing fails the children are forced back into the public schools.
2 things instantly happen. The overseeing organization of the home schoolers dumps these kids off of their books like they never existed. They are not a failure because they no longer exist.
At the same time these kids are now in public school, far behind grade level, and now part of the failing numbers for that school as if that school had taught them from day one.
The home schoolers always like to tell you about how their rate of success is so great. We could all be great at anything we do if we could give all of our failures to someone else and duck any and all responsibility for it.
Reality for these children is that they end up in special ed classes, because nobody knows what to do with them, where they will continue to fail and most of them will never graduate.
I am not a fan of home schooling. To be blunt about it I would like to see all politics and religion out of the classroom. If you decide to teach your kids at home for religious reasons and do not get the job done then you should be fined to pay for the extra teachers and tutors it takes to get your kid back to grade level.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)I think that parents should have the right to educate their children in whatever manner they want to, and if they can't do it in their native country, then they should be allowed to come here to do it.
I have a feeling that your problem with this is that they are Christians, or as you put it, "wittle Cwistians." Nice show of tolerance, Cali. 
cali
(114,904 posts)you'd know that I often have said that there's a double standard at DU re Christians. Oth, I think it's bullshit that Christians in this country are persecuted- a frequent right wing claim, and I don't think that not being able to home school your kids even begins to rise to the level of persecution.
Seeking asylum over this trivializes the horrors of people who really are persecuted.
the "wittle Cwistians" comment did rub me the wrong way. I agree that it isn't religious persecution, but I do think they should be able to stay here, if they want to homeschool their kids.
cali
(114,904 posts)aren't close to being met
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)They're not going to be killed or beaten if they return to Germany...stuff like that constitutes aslyum.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)not being able to homeschool your kids, is not religious persecution, the family does risk the loss of their children if they return and insist on resisting the no homeschooling rule. The loss of children would be the stuff constituting asylum.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)But you are 100% right. If you want to homeschool your children and the penalty is the state takes your kids away from you, that strikes me as persecution.
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)That's the issue here. If we let this be an acceptable reason to grant asylum you will see a lot of people applying for asylum because of all kinds of trivial reasons, and the precedent will have been set that such frivolities warrant the granting of asylum. They don't.
I understand the disdain Cali expressed, and share it because I am really tired of Christians claiming they are being oppressed at every turn. It's silly, and worse it's hypocritical.
1monster
(11,012 posts)The problem is that those parents are not so much seeking to school their children at home as they are seeking to limit the education their children receive.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)Still think they should send them to school all day long? A lot more than education goes on in public schools.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)The kids were not being bullied. The kids were being taught satanic things like "evolution".
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)to teach their children that science is bunk, and that Eve was created from a rib of Adam, who was created from dirt. And Noah built an ark which held all the different animals in the world. And the world is flat, and the universe revolves around it. Oh, and jesus walked on water, raised a guy who had been dead 3 days, turned water to wine, and fed 3000 people with modern day equivalent of two Filet O Fish sandwiches from McDonalds. 
Hell, maybe I should use Grimm's fairy tales to educate my grandchildren- it is just as plausible as the babble.
On edit: hey Abraham- kill your son to prove you love me. Oh wait- I was just fucking with you.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)which should have never been granted...
Like that white South African claiming asylum in Canada in the name of 'minority persecution'...The sad part is his case was actually approved(!)
muriel_volestrangler
(101,310 posts)In the EU, so they already have right of residence there, and the language is the same.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling_international_status_and_statistics#Austria
Or they could have moved to other EU countries, where, again, they already have right of residence, that allow home-schooling. Moving to the USA was a publicity stunt to support the RWers who have been representing them in court eg Michael Farris, founder of Patrick Henry College:
In 1993, Farris ran unsuccessfully for Lieutenant Governor of Virginia and was defeated by Democrat Don Beyer 54-46 percent. However, fellow Republicans George Allen and James Gilmore were elected on the same ballot as Governor and Attorney General, respectively. Farris' close connection to conservative leaders like Jerry Falwell of the former Moral Majority, Pat Robertson of the Christian Coalition and Phyllis Schlafly of the Eagle Forum, as well as his adherence to the Quiverfull movement[2][7] stirred deep-seated feelings about religion and politics. These concerns inflamed by negative ads by Beyer to portray him even more radically, likely caused alienation of enough moderate voters to cause his defeat.[8] Prominent Virginia Republicans like U.S. Senator John Warner supported Beyer.
Farris was the founder and chairman of the Madison Project, a political action committee. He is also the founder of Generation Joshua, an organization for the mobilization of Christian youth to participate in politics and get out the vote. In 2007, he founded ParentalRights.org, a parental rights advocacy group.
Farris was featured on CNN's Anderson Cooper 360° on December 7, 2012 as a leading opponent of U.S. ratification of the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, modeled after the Americans with Disabilities Act. The treaty, already ratified by 126 countries, encourages other nations to give people with disabilities the same protections they have in the United States.[9] Despite strong support from groups such as Veterans of Foreign Wars and the Vietnam Veterans of America, the treaty failed on December 4 to garner the two-thirds vote in Congress necessary for ratification, largely because of opposition from HSLDA and Heritage Action for America.[10][11] Host Anderson Cooper noted that during the campaign against the treaty, Farris stirred opposition by making the questionable claim that U.S. ratification could give the UN control over American children who wore eyeglasses.
During the CNN broadcast,[12] Cooper played a segment of a radio interview in which Farris said: "The definition of disability is not defined in the treaty, and so my kid wears glasses; now they’re disabled; now the UN gets control over them.”[13] Farris had made the statement during an interview on Today’s Issues, a radio program of the American Family Association.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Farris
See also: http://www.democraticunderground.com/101788676 http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021926622 http://www.democraticunderground.com/10021926622
dembotoz
(16,799 posts)went to a homeschooler conference and it was
wacky
wacky
wacky
jsr
(7,712 posts)Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)home schoolers are related to RW religious nuttery.
The RW Republicans love it because it, along with charter and other private schools is a way to undercut public education in this country.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)public education sucks, and if parents think they can do a better job, then more power to them.
cali
(114,904 posts)furthermore, as most home schoolers in this country are religious fundamentalists, I contest your contention that they can provide a decent education.
Teaching "young earth" crap as science is not providing a decent education.
The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)k12 in Ohio and other such schools use home schooling as a model. They provide all the materials, computers, etc and they aren't based around religion at all and have the same testing and standards as public schools.
But hey, stereotyping works well on DU when it comes to some groups (and is called a terrible thing when applied to others).
cali
(114,904 posts)that home school in the U.S. are religious fundamentalists.
And sorry, but I am not opposed to home schooling.
I know quite a few people who home schooled and did a splendid job, but hey you love jumping to conclusions and making unfounded accusations.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)Only 38% cite religion as the prime motivator.
My wife home schooled ours and we are FAR from religious freaks and both of them got into great colleges, one with nearly a full scholarship, and the other with a soccer scholarship.
Department of Education statistics
http://www.statisticbrain.com/home-school-statistics/
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)and for the most part, they do a pretty good job, because they care more about their children's future than anyone else--including teachers.
Most of my homeschooling friends were fundies, but that had less to do with the decision to homeschool than what was happening--or not--in the public school classrooms.
One of my friends used the John Holt approach, which IIRC involved learning through real life experiences; you learned fractions by baking cookies, etc. One of her daughters picked up a book at three years old and taught herself to read. The other one was significantly older--maybe 8 or 10 before she finally started to read, buut both girls went to college, did well, and graduated.
Another friend started homeschooling when her daughter was failing in public school. She had a wonderful teacher, who was absolutely mystified as to what was going on. My friend took the time to educate herself about learning styles, and tested her daughter to find the best method for her daughter. Once she found that magic method, the girl began to flourish, her self-esteem rose, and she went on to also graduate from college.
One of my closest friends is a major control freak. She took her daughter out of public kindergarten when the teacher wouldn't let the child monopolize the classroom. she worked both of her daughters a full year ahead of grade level, so that they both entered college early.
As to what they believe, who cares? My control freak friend's daughter had to take some science class in which she was taught evolution. She promised her mother that she would learn it for the exams, and then forget it. So what if that's what she did?
I have had multiple discussions with my (intolerant) son, who thinks that people who reject evolution can't function in life. That simply isn't true. The professions of which a belief in evolution is integral are very, very few in number. Who cares if your nurse, or you insurance agent, or your mortgage lender believes that the earth is only 3000 years old?
But, I'm kind of a live-and-let-live type.
SoCalNative
(4,613 posts)believes that the earth is only 3000 years old? "
that would make me think that they're very ignorant, in my book, so I probably wouldn't have much use for them, or faith in them to carry out the functions of their job sufficiently.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)when a nurse is taking your BP, or an agent is explaining your car insurance, or a banker is talking about interest rates? My guess is, probably never. So, who cares?
If they aren't telling you about their beliefs about everything under the sun right up front, do you interrogate them?
Gore1FL
(21,128 posts)Whatever their field, without scientific literacy, I can't count on them asking the right questions, much less having the right answers.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)how do you know what they believe when you are doing business with them?
Do you hand them a questionnaire?
Do you interrogate them?
Please tell, as I'm pretty sure you don't know the personal beliefs of the majority of people you do business with on a day-to-day basis.
Gore1FL
(21,128 posts)The ones that believe the earth is 6000 years old like to talk about it.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)What are you doing about that?
Gore1FL
(21,128 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)And yes, I care about science education And you don't seem at all like a live and let live type. not even a little bit.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)
cui bono
(19,926 posts)1. They will vote for Tea Party candidates if they are not taught proper science. And most of the home schooling I hear about is for religious reasons. That is why Fox made the leap that to not allow it is religious persecution.
I have a friend who home schooled their kids and I don't know the son that well, but the high school aged daughter is very educated. So I'm not opposed to home schooling in general, but I am disturbed that the majority of it seems to be done in order to not have to teach reality like science and history. Education should absolutely not be faith based. Period.
So even if they end up in a job where their religious faith may not seem to have an effect, they are voters and that is a problem. Also, who the hell wants to live in a country full of ignorant people anyway? Ignorant voting is dangerous. These are also the people who believe Faux News.
2. How do you know what job they will end up in? They could run for public office, they are running for public office. And when they do the other ignorant home schooled so that you don't have to learn about reality folks will vote for them.
So I'm not against the idea of it as long as there is strict testing for getting accredited.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)You oppose homeschooling because people may vote in a way that disagrees with you?
Maybe the right wing is right about public school indoctrination.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)I want educated voters. I don't want voters who vote based on faith and ignorance. I don't want voters who do not believe in reality. Education can change that.
You really want our voters to be made up of people who don't believe in science? You really want people who don't believe in science to head scientific committees of our federal government?
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)turnout at the polls would be abyssmal. There are plenty of ignorant people who vote.
would you like to reinstitute literacy tests?????? Should we require every voter to pass a test of their knowledge of history/current events/science stuff??
Dangerous territory, that.
Lucky Luciano
(11,253 posts)If it could be done fairly, I wouldn't mind. I doubt that it could be instituted fairly though.
In an ideal, but unrealistic world, I DO think that only people who know what the fuck they are voting for should vote.
Knowing what the fuck you are voting for includes a knowledge of history, science, current events, and the positions of the politicians running.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)but it will never happen.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)And I didn't say I wanted to stop people from voting. You really like to twist around what I'm saying. Why is that?
I think everyone can agree it is better for the country for people/voters to be educated. Do you not agree with that?
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)is pretty subjective. I don't think you could find an across-the-board definition of educated.
We might think that they need to be able to read, but there are people who can't read, for one reason or another. Should they be able to vote? How can they be considered educated if they can't read? Should they have to take a basic test of
their science/history/current events knowledge?
We would be better off if every voter were educated, but it isn't going to happen without trampling a lot of people's civil rights.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)I'm simply saying as a country we should want our citizens and electorate educated. Most home schooling is done so that folks can teach their kids biblical mythology rather than scientific reality. That is dangerous. Even if they have to learn science they are getting it from someone who says it's not true and thereby also causing them to have a distrust of government institutions as well as causing them to be ignorant and ill-prepared for the real world.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)and homeschooling parents do, too. There is a tendency to broad-brush homeschooling families as ignorant, fundy, Luddites who want to keep their kids ignorant and scared. Oh, and who abuuuuuuuuuuuuse their kids every chance they get. So totally not true, in my experience.
From what I've seen, it can be a wonderful experience for parents and kids.
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)don't anger the hive. Certain topics will get a swarm directed at you. For the record I agree completely with you, my kids were home schooled and they are both in college and I couldn't be prouder that they were not subject to what we sadly call our public education system.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)does nothing to fix public education. But maybe those families feel that saving their own children from boredom/ignorance/bullying/whatever trumps fixing public schools.
And competition DOES help. Many years ago we had a charter school start up in our small town, mostly in response to the fact that our public school administrators were giving parents a huge FUCK YOU in regard to their concerns about their kids' education.
When the superintendent and school board saw the outpouring of support for the school, the number of applications, and the interest in it, things changed pronto. For the first time, our schools started offering AP, just as one example.
The fact that our schools thought they had a monopoly on how kids were going to be educated had allowed them to arrogantly do their own thing. Once that school started, they found out that they needed to listen to people's concerns.
Travis_0004
(5,417 posts)As far as I'm concerned, I have nothing against anybody who has children, pays taxes for public schools, but doesn't use their resources, either through private schools, or home school.
It lowers class sizes, and allows a school to have more money to spend per student.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)given what the media and the right wing spin machine says, US schools are NOT failing, and they do NOT suck.
http://www.learningfirst.org/us-education-system-not-failing
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)own children in public school classrooms. They idea that one-size-fits-all can't possibly not suck. Kids are individuals, but most public schools treat them as parts of a herd. Some new educational fad comes along--Whole Language, Inclusion, whatever--and some kids do get lost in the shuffle.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)information on your single experience.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)Makes sense to me.
My youngest son could read rings around the other kids in his class. He used to challenge himself by turning his book upside down and decoding the text that way. Our school system, however, fully espoused the idea that "all kids are the same; they're the same on the playground, and they are the same in the classroom." His teacher used to reward the kids with sticks of gum for following along, when they were bored out of their minds. Not to mention, the humiliation of being the kid stumbling over simple words in front of the entire class.
It was bullshit. Their was no learning going on in that classsroom, at least not for my child.
Squinch
(50,949 posts)YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)Get it now?
Squinch
(50,949 posts)I wouldn't try to put a percentage to that, though.
nikto
(3,284 posts)But it's OK as long as Investors make money from Charter Schools.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)but charter schools can be a good thing. Somewhere on this thread I mentioned our experience here. Once a charter school opened in our town, our public school administrators started noticing for the first time that parents weren't totally happy with some of the crap that had been going on in our kids' schools. they became responsive to us, because they realized they were no longer the only game in town! It was the best thing that ever could have happened!
Until the charter school opened, they didn't want to offer any AP classes, because that was seen as elitist. They wised up, and figured out a way to offer a wide variety of AP through on-line classes. It never would have happened if they hadn't been subjected to a little competition.
nikto
(3,284 posts)My experience is in urban schools, where Charters cherry-pick the best kids and
regular schools are under crazy pressure over test scores, yet get cut$, cut$ and more cut$, veteran teachers
are squeezed out in favor of cheaper, more replaceable ones, etc etc.
Nice to hear it may be working somewhere.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)And a relatively poor district.
When we first moved here, costs had been cut to the bone, and there was a "who gives a shit" attitude. Some of the library books on the shelves were seriously out of date. I remember one entitled Someday Man Will Walk on the Moon. This was in the '90's. It was there because no one cared enough to pull it off the shelf. The buildings were mostly falling apart. There was no elementary gym teacher, and I don't think there was a music or art teacher either. Half of the kids in the district tested at an unsatisfactory reading level on the MEAP tests.
As soon as there was an alternative, kids left the public school in droves. The administration was caught by surprise.
nikto
(3,284 posts)Place such a low priority on local schools.
That's jusy negligence, IMO.
I would suspect such a administrative regime to be rife with corruption behind-the-scenes.]
JMO.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)I made some GOTV calls. The millage failed badly, and then someone told me that a few years earlier one had passed, and then the administration used the funds to remodel/redecorate their offices. It left a bad taste in people's mouths.
dbackjon
(6,578 posts)Many homeschoolers do it to limit their kids exposure to the evil secular world, not because of lack of good public schools.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)and my response of a blanket statement was to a blanket statement that "99% of the time homeschooling is a bad idea."
I have just as much info to back up my statement as that person did to back up his/hers.
dbackjon
(6,578 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)it and did a really good job.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)the mother had gone to school to be a teacher, and her her home schooling of those children was obviously spectacular because all of them were highly literate and knowledgable about the world.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)and yet they turned out to be reasonably sane, personable individuals--so I've had to revise my opinion of homeschooling a bit. Of course, I think they were taught by a hired tutor, not by their parents, and they were socialized as kids.
However, I still think they are a rare exception. Homeschooling, by and large, does long-term damage to a child's ability to cope with the outside world. You do your child no favors by sheltering them for 12 years longer than they need to be.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)I think studies have shown that homeschooled kids are better adjusted than public school educated kids. Most of their parents look for opportunities to socialize their kids.
I'd like to see whatever studies you are relying on to make a judgment about "long term damage."
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)but you're not sharing them.
Would you like to do that - share the facts that you keep using?
Will we be pleasantly surprised if the majority of your citations do not come from sources that advocate for home-schooling? Personally, I'm not very interested in reading a research study that was done by NHERI - that's kind of like reading a study that says smoking is good for you - compiled by the old Tobacco Institute.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)is pretty old. I haven't had to deal with educational issues since my youngest graduated from high school 10 years ago, and I'm not interested enough to do any digging now.
The FACT is that there are plenty of sources which will support any side of this discussion. I can tell you that most of the homeschooled kids I've known have grown up to be healthy, happy, productive adults, and the ones who haven't have had lots of issues other than their educational experiences that are at fault.
Another fact here is that kids are individuals, parents are individuals, and not every situation is right for everyone.
enlightenment
(8,830 posts)you are presenting opinion, which you are entitled to do - but that doesn't give you much of a leg up in the debate.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)
kimbutgar
(21,133 posts)If it was a brown family from Mexico or Africa they would not care. I saw this on Faux and knew they were going to use this to anger white people because the mean Obama administraton is sending back a evangelical white family.
Adrahil
(13,340 posts)
fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)I doubt their public school has them 24/7.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)Public-only.
So they came to the Us and tried to claim "religious persecution" on that ground
fleabiscuit
(4,542 posts)But what is preventing the parents from additional teaching at home?
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Nay
(12,051 posts)persecution over homeschooling. How did this even get past the first smell test administered by the State Dept.? What do you wanna bet a fundie State Dept worker let this one come through?
Hell, there are people who have been beaten nearly to death on camera in some third-world shithole who can't even get a hearing over persecution.
Shrike47
(6,913 posts)Of course, I worked in the Juvenile Courts for 30 years.
You'd be surprised what people will do to their children.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)There is much more child abuse going on in the families of kids sitting every day in public school classrooms than there is in homeschool families.
Shrike47
(6,913 posts)Don't respond to my posts knowing nothing about. I spoke of my experience of home schooling and that's what it is. I've got the PTSD that goes with the experience. Children beaten, starved, burned and pimped out.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)Lisa Steinberg sat in a public school classroom until she died, and no one did anything about it. And if you think she was the only one, you're crazy.
The homeschooling families you mention would have been abusive no matter what the circumstances of their education.
Are you going to tell me you NEVER saw an abused child who sat in a public school classroom day after day after day?
I've known many homeschooling families, and not one of them was abusive.
Shrike47
(6,913 posts)
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)I believe that person intends to argue until you give up, then high-5 him/herself for the Victory.
Some people can't discuss, too stubborn and self-assured.
I've noted that to be extremely common with Fundamentalist Xians, for instance.
I'm not suggesting that Yarn Addict is a Fundy, merely that arguing with him/her is like arguing with a Fundy, pointless and exhausting.
I found your posts compelling.
Shrike47
(6,913 posts)But everybody who claimed to be 'home schooling' was lying out their ass. Which wasn't surprising because they were usually ignorant, personality-disordered and lower functioning.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)I ever came across was covering for abuse. Serious dysfunction.
There may be some homeschoolers who are sane and normal, but I've yet to meet them.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)While abuse does not happen in every case of homeschooling, even the homeschooling advocacy group recognizes that it does occur. http://www.hslda.org/LandingPages/ChildAbuse/
Further, there is significant evidence that there is a positive correlation between those being abused and those abused youth being homeschooled, i.e., and as the person stated, the reason for the "homeschooling" (if any schooling actually occurred and not just an explanation for why their kid wasn't in school) is to cover up the abuse.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)stated that "every homeschooler I've encountered . . ."
Blanket statements like that are extremely offensive to me, mostly because I have known so many good, caring families who chose to homeschool because they could better meet the educational and emotional needs of their children that way.
The truth is, we often never know what goes on behind closed doors, and many public school kids suffer horrible home lives, but it is never known. Maybe their bruises are hidden, or maybe they fear the consequences of speaking up, or maybe their teachers don't notice, or can't be bothered. I really believe that their are many, many more of them than there are kids whose parents are doing the best they can to give their kids a quality education.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)blanket statements like that are irresponsible in their inaccuracy.
And while I agree there are likely more public school attendees that suffer abuse, anecdotal evidence produces story after story of the horrible neglected youth whose parents' answer to the "why weren't your kids in school" question is "we were homeschooling them."
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)Feral Child
(2,086 posts)Really, broad-brush comments need to be backed up.
Without documentation it sounds very much like wishful thinking.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)Many more kids are in public schools than are homeschooled. Are you really going to tell me that none of those kids are abused?
Feral Child
(2,086 posts)that haven't been made is an ineffective discussion technique.
And "common sense" is intellectually dishonest.
In fact, you can not back up your statement and attempted to deflect criticism by changing the topic and making a ridiculous, insulting claim.
You can't make me angry. You haven't the skill, so get back on topic.
Can you prove your statement or will you repeat your last and claim your personal "common sense" pronouncements to be unquestionable fact?
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)According to National Child Abuse statistics, 6,000,000 children are abused annually.
https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=91
According to the Dept. of Education, 1.5 million children were homeschooled in 2007.
Seems to me that 4.5 million abused kids aren't being homeschooled. Where do you suppose they are being educated?
AnalystInParadise
(1,832 posts)I enjoy smary little shits having their noses rubbed in broad brush statements. Wait until something odd happens in Texas, then the smary little shits come out of the woodwork. It is some kind of disease here, if you support what is best for your kids according to your beliefs you are wrong, if you are from the south, you are wrong, if you disagree with the President on anything like NSA wiretapping you are wrong and a borderline traitor. Some people here really don't understand the liberal message we are supposed to share. And so many people are anti-choice. It is interesting sometimes.
DeadLetterOffice
(1,352 posts)I'm pretty sure that you saw abused homeschooled kids because your job revolved around abused kids.
Don't imagine that you saw a whole lot of unabused kids, period, whether homeschooled or not.
Nevernose
(13,081 posts)Having worked for years in the family courts -- and currently volunteering weekends with foster kids -- I have seen hundreds of so-called homeschoolers that were just an excuse to cover up abuse and neglect. Hundreds.
iamthebandfanman
(8,127 posts)and anti private schooling... and definitely don't support tax funds going to either of them for any reason.
I only support public education. period.
being denied the ability to teach your kids the sun is actually a very angry giant hedgehog that got blasted into space and accidently caught fire in the process is definitely not persecution.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)Parents care much more about their children's futures than anyone else. Most of them aren't going to screw up.
Gore1FL
(21,128 posts)I know a lot of dumb asses that home school. I am sure none of them intentionally ruining their children's future. I am sure they are doing so with the best of intentions. In the end, their kids suffer.
Standards are good. If those are met, get the education wherever. If they are not met, there needs to be a mandated alternative.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)You ever hear about high school graduates who can't read? Why do you suppose that all colleges now offer REMEDIAL eduction? Sounds like if there are standards, they are pretty pathetic.
Gore1FL
(21,128 posts)I'm arguing that schools are better prepared to teach children in a way home schooling cannot accomplish as consistently. Additionally, there is a social aspect that home schooled children miss.
I have a physicist friend who home-schooled her child. She managed to accomplish the feat quite successfully.
My old school district is about to be taken over by the state. It's apparent they are failing miserably.
We can both come up with anecdotes, supportive or otherwise. I contend, that a staff full of trained educators with teaching resources teamed with the parents can provide a much more complete and rounded education than the parents alone.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)And many of them screw up their kids in the process. Whether you have your child in public, private or home schooled, it is the parents responsibility to ensure that the child is getting what is needed to excel. So I would disagree that people that home school care more about their kids educations.
My child started out in private schools. In 3rd grade he still wasn't reading. I was paying private tuition and paying for tutors. Then I found out that the teachers were not certified and out of private school and into public he went. In public school, I had him tested and learned he is dyslexic. That's where he got the help he needed. But there was no way that I could just dump him off at school in the AM and let it end at that. NO, I had to follow up with teachers, I had to continually advocate for him all through his school years. The boy only ever failed one class and that was his first year algebra. He had a very popular teacher and I don't think anyone ever really was able to focus on algebra in that class. The next semester he had a different teacher and aced algebra. I found out that I got a whole lot more out of the teachers when I went in to school with an open mind and gave them the respect they deserved. I saw them as my partners in educating my son.
So, what I'm trying to say, is that a parent has to be involved. No, one does not need to accompany their child to school, but they do need to sit down with their child while they're doing homework. They need to attend those parent teacher conferences and speak to the teachers after class occasionally. Parents need to be tuned into their children and what is happening with them in school and doing their best to ensure that their children's obtain the best education ppossible.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)parents who choose to homeschool know that the entire responsibility for their kids' education is on them. And even though they screw up occasionally, they are probably less likely to dump their kids on the teacher.
By the way, certification means absolutely nothing. Most of my education classes were bullshit, and the whole certification process seemed pretty useless. It was frightening, some of the people who were in some of m classes . . .
Did you see my post upthread about my friend whose daughter was failing in school? She probably would have been "labelled" learning disabled, but my friend referred to it as a different learning style, and used that difference to her advantage. Homeschooling was a lifesaver for that girl.
notadmblnd
(23,720 posts)longer than it probably needed to be. The teachers clearly didn't possess the skills to identify any of the symptoms nor the expertise to test him.
Yes, children have different learning styles. My son happened to need a quiet place with little distraction. He was a total mess in a class room where the teacher had little control.
I didn't make a judgment on which method is best. I tried two of the 3 and I know what worked for me. I only have some college so I certainly wasn't qualified to formally educate him. My child was never dumped anywhere and I made certain he got what he needed from those who were responsible for his education, me and his teachers.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)When he was learning to read, he had to touch every word, almost as if he was claiming it. It was really interesting to watch.
I didn't mean to imply that you "dumped" your child on the school or anywhere!! Actually, I was thinking about a story one of the teachers once told about a little girl who had a meltdown in school--throwing things, overturning desks, totally out of control. The teacher called her mom to come to pick her up, and the mother refused to come and told the teacher, "When she's in school, she's your problem." I felt so sorry for the teacher, for the little girl, and for every other child in that class. That might be an extreme example of kid-dumping, but it happens more often than it should.
REP
(21,691 posts)They're from Germany. Germany. Claiming they fear religious persecution.
I think we all have a real good idea of what German religious persecution looks, and it's absurd and offensive for these Scheißekopfs to even to make that claim.
Arkana
(24,347 posts)German law is German law, but if they don't like it, too damn bad. It's not a reason to grant them asylum here.
Ned Fenwick
(25 posts)Well, there were, but they grew up and moved out. They're two of the most well-rounded, well-educated, fun people I know. Both got bachelors' degrees so far (from Iowa State & Webster Univ. in St. Louis) and are doing fine. I'm their dad, and I participated in their education, taking 5 years off work in the 80s & 90s to do that, and I'm sure we're closer than we would have been otherwise. Their native curiosity was not curbed, ever. And we're delighted to support the local school district - wouldn't want to live in a country full of uneducated, or poorly educated people. That's where your tea-types come from. Religion is ok, but as for me, I think it's a means of self-hypnosis, a way to scare your kids into line, a form of marketing career, or an Amway-type networking method when you've lost your gig.
YarnAddict
(1,850 posts)But, according to some in this thread, what you've said can't possibly be true. You must have been abusing them, they are ill-socialized, and ignorant.
I support homeschoolers. I didn't, but wish I had. Dealing with our local district, trying to get an appropriate education for two gifted kids was so frustrating!
JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Most of the federal states of Germany, which has a long history of almost even division between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, have an arrangement where the religious bodies oversee the training of mainline Protestant, Catholic, and Jewish religious education teachers. In one of the federal states this includes Orthodox Christian teachers as well. The training is supposed to be conducted according to modern standards of the humanities, at mostly state-run colleges and universities. Those teachers teach religion in public schools, are paid by the state but answerable to the churches for the content of their teaching; however they must not teach behaviour widely considered to be against the law. Children who are part of no mainstream religion or wish to opt out for another reason must usually attend neutral classes in "Ethics" or "Philosophy" instead. From the age of 14, children may decide on their own if they want to attend religion classes and if they do, which of those they are willing to take. For younger children it is the decision of their parents. The state also subsidizes religious schools by paying up to 90% of their expenses. These schools have to follow the same curricula as public schools of their federal state, though.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_education
In some places, Muslims can even participate in courses in their religion.
Germany’s Constitution stipulates that religion be part of school curriculum. The initiative was born out of the atrocities of the Nazi era, and aimed at giving young people an ethical foundation and a sense of identity. Roman Catholics and Protestants have conducted such classes (publicly funded) for decades, and Jews were given similar rights in 2003.
Muslims, however, have faced roadblocks. But some observers argue such classes could help Muslims, some 6 percent of the population, better integrate their religious and German identities. Now, pilot projects that are chipping away at the barriers represent the latest evidence of Germany’s changing attitude toward its booming Muslim minority.
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2010/0120/Why-German-public-schools-now-teach-Islam
Someone is really reaching to make a point. When I was a child, we attended an off-school-property after school class in religion. My father, a minister, did not agree with the theology of the fundamentalist teacher, but we had fun anyway. This family is simply inflexible in dealing with mainstream religion. They want to raise their children to think that everyone believes the same stuff their parents believe. It's a lie, and kids need to learn about diversity early.
Nay
(12,051 posts)children 'contaminated' by other religious beliefs.
drm604
(16,230 posts)then anyone in any country that doesn't allow homeschooling could seek "asylum" here.
Imagine if a German Muslim family sought asylum here because their country wouldn't allow them to home school. Do you think most of the people defending this Christian family would defend them?
I wonder if Mexico allows homeschooling? If not, maybe all of those "illegals" could seek asylum here. I'm sure the right would support that!
Roland99
(53,342 posts)but that headline wouldn't have sold as well for their knuckle-dragging viewers.
Rex
(65,616 posts)WHAT TOTAL BS!
I have to agree with Germany, they were NOT persecuting this family - they were trying to make sure the children do not end up being total dumb fucks! No doubt these parents will find some other way to fuck up their kids.
azureblue
(2,146 posts)Most immigrants from Mexico and South America are Catholic. And a lot of them face deportation, too. So where's the outrage against religious persecution of Catholics? I'm waiting...
Thinkingabout
(30,058 posts)One if which I kept up with for a while the kid was ten years old and could not read. Yes his parents was well to do but some day in the future this young man is going to want to drive and will nit be able to read street signs. This may happen to others in public school but it is an example of a failure also. The real point was the German parents claimed religious persecution to obtain asylum and SC refused to hear the case and therefore rejection. Of course the fun dies look past the truth and blame Obama, the truth is not in them.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)
onpatrol98
(1,989 posts)I like any approach that works. So, I'm all for home schooling, private schools, and public schools.
We have millions of people living in the US who are citizens from other countries. I'm unclear as to what problem could be caused by allowing one more family to stay.
alp227
(32,019 posts)Think about how the DHS granted DREAM Act kids a 2-year deferred status back in the summer of 2012.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)but I really don't understand your mean-spirited post. Do you always celebrate when families are deported, or do you just have something against this family in particular?
