Ukraine - Let Me Get This Straight....

[warrprayer]

O.K., it looks like a group of neo-nazis who called for ethnic cleansing in Ukraine took control of their governments version of the defense department.

"Svoboda has been described as an anti-Semitic and sometimes a Neo-Nazi party by international newspapers,[10][91][107] organizations that monitor hate speech,[108] Jewish organizations,[109][110] and political opponents.[50]

Political scientist Tadeusz A. Olszański writes that the social-nationalist ideology which Svoboda formerly adhered to has included "openly racist rhetoric" concerning 'white supremacy' since its establishment, and that comparisons with National Socialism are legitimized by its history; however, Svoboda’s policy documents contain no racist elements.[2] According to Der Spiegel, "anti-Semitism is part of the extremist party's platform," which rejects certain minority and human rights.[10] The paper writes that Svoboda's earlier "Social-National Party" title was an "intentional reference to Adolf Hitler's National Socialist party," and that a Svoboda youth leader distributed Nazi propaganda written by Joseph Goebbels in 2013.[10] According to journalist Michael Goldfarb, Svoboda's platform calls for a Ukraine that is “one race, one nation, one Fatherland,”[dubious – discuss] and criticized the party for honoring the Waffen-SS Galicia (of which the historical role of the unit is contested).[107
"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)

Fuck every nazi bastard that ever lived.

That is all.

[LiberalEsto]

1. I suspect these extremists are a small minority

Ukrainians have plenty of reasons to be bitter about their terrible mistreatment by Russia in the past -- planned famines, people shipped off to Siberia, forced Sovietization. One does not have to be a nazi or an extremist to fear Russia.

Sure, there were probably extremists among those who revolted. But I doubt very much that the average Ukrainian is of that mind-set.

And just to make things clear -- my father fled Estonia because the German Nazi occupiers put a price on his head.

[warrprayer]

3. the problem seems to be

that this "small minority" has seized control of their government. I would certainly hope that the average Ukrainian would not subscribe to the evil philosophy of this group, and would be relieved to see them taken out.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. Svoboda is not a small minority party. They are a major political player in western ukraine.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

8. They are 8% of the Rada.

By comparison, the Tea Party Caucus is 11% of the U.S. House.

[cali]

20. downplaying their influence is disingenuous. not sure why it's so important

to you to do that. support for svaboda has been growing over the past decade and they are well established and represented in local government as well a holding seats in Parliament. they've been given signifcant appointments in the provisional government.h

furthermore they are part of the majority and their influence has grown, not diminished since the Yanukovych government fell. Let's hope that changes.

During the 2009 and 2010 local elections in Galicia, the party made significant gains and became a major force in local government.[28][29] In the 2012 Ukrainian parliamentary elections, Svoboda won its first seats in the Ukrainian Parliament,[30] garnering 10.44% of the popular vote and the 4th most seats among national political parties;[31] this transposed into 37 parliamentary seats.[32] In October 2012, Svoboda joined a formal coalition with the centre-right Batkivshchyna and UDAR parties to form the parliament's collective opposition, now a majority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_%28political_party%29#Electoral_results

[Alex_]

7. Hi LiberalE, hi DU

The whole 'Nazis in charge of Ukraine' thing is just Russia's version of 'WMDs in Iraq' used to justify the invasion - they are still looking very hard for any evidence of any actual Russians getting abused in Ukraine, if there was any they would have produced it by now

[okaawhatever]

10. Welcome Alex. This whole Putin propaganda "neo-Nazis have taken over Ukraine" is being spread

around quite a bit here recently. Don't worry, those of us who have spent any time reading up on the matter know better.

[Alex_]

17. if it makes any difference..

The Head of the Jewish Council has been appointed as the governor for Dnipro region (central Ukraine) by the new Gov a couple of days ago

[warrprayer]

18. THIS is the ORIGINAL LOGO OF SVOBODA

This is what it means...

In English, the term mostly refers to the latter symbol, mainly due to its use in Nazi symbolism. The association with Nazism is possibly due to the occurrence of the symbol in Hermann Löns's 1910 novel Der Wehrwolf, where the protagonist, a resistance fighter during the Thirty Years' War, adopts the symbol as his personal badge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfsangel

FUCK ALL NAZIS!!!

Svoboda members wearting their cute little fucking swastika shirts -

[rdharma]

46. The "Wolfsangel" was the symbol for the die hard Nazi Werwolf Organization at the end of WWII.nt

[warrprayer]

48. thanks

... seeing young people wearing that emblem makes me want to hurl...

[okaawhatever]

60. Granted it is disgusting, but it's not Svoboda. And let's not forget the leader of Svoboda used to

be in Yanukovych's party. They are still too ultra nationalist, but it was made clear during the released phone call of Nuland and in other meetings that they would have to get rid of the extreme elements and that the new government would include all the minorities. the whle "neo-Nazi's took over" is just bullshit propaganda.

[cali]

25. gad. I straight out condemn the invasion and Putin but sorry

that doesn't change the troubling facts about far right elements gaining power in Ukraine. that is disturbing and it's separate from russia's invasion and in no way shape or form justifies the invasion.

[Alex_]

35. Oh

sorry, just can not get the Crimea situation out of my head, forgetting about that for a second - yes their rise is a troubling sign and yes, they currently have the Ministry of Defense. However, the only reason why they got the votes last time was protest vote (they were believed to be the only party that would not go in a coalition to support the ex-President) and they were able to capture nationalistic (not necessarily nazi) voters in the West. If the situation in the country stabilises they would either get voted out or would have to move away from their origins (I do believe that they are doing so already)

[warrprayer]

40. that sounds like "best case scenario"

that the C.I.A. uses to justify supporting bad guys forever. Not saying what you claim is impossible - just not likely.

[cali]

41. support for them has been steadily growing for the past decade

it isn't just a one time protest vote phenomenon- I wish that were so.

They have gained power and no, they have not tempered their nationalism or bigotry.

[Adrahil]

52. Then that makes it even more of a damned shame....

... that Yanukovich was such a sonovabitch that they were able to get others on their side.

[warrprayer]

54. any circumstances

that contribute to the rise of fascists are a damned shame

[Adrahil]

56. I'd agree with that...

... But with a country with Ukraine's history, I totally understand the strong reaction to any move towards subservience to a former imperial master.

If yanukovich had embraced European integration, he'd p still be in office, robbing the treasury blind and Svoboda wouldn't have had the chance to increase its influence, which still seems relatively minor.

[warrprayer]

37. cali in the house!

the real estate value of this thread just tripled!

Great info, Cali.

[LiberalEsto]

51. Welcome to DU

I had a feeling this was Putin's propaganda.

I'm not denying there are extremist ultra-nationalists in Ukraine. I just doubt they are the whole story.

[go west young man]

57. The BBC must be working for the Russian government if thats the case.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26394980 The 4:54 mark in this BBC report clearly states Svoboda and affiliated groups have control of 4 Ukrainian ministries including the Defense ministry.

[pjt7]

2. When these Gov protests turn to push & then shove

the moderates go home & the crazies take over. & then real people get killed & chaos rules

That's why the Western media who are promoting this stuff has blood on its hands.

[warrprayer]

5. sadly

the C.I.A. has a long history of providing assistance to bastards that are worse bastards than the ones they are fighting against.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

19. you've hit on a topic

Last edited Mon Mar 3, 2014, 07:02 PM - Edit history (1)

There is this theme prevalent throughout society that defeating an enemy is a great goal.

Often, those wishing to do so economically will adopt the slogan "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"; an ideology that often backfires. I'd like to see as much effort put into keeping other nations on friendly terms as we do looking for enemies and bad guys.

[warrprayer]

21. I find that

hard to disagree with

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

47. ~~

have a nice day

[warrprayer]

49. U-2

[bvar22]

39. SEE: Libya

*

[warrprayer]

42. greetings bvar22!

gee wonder why we aren't seeing an in-depth discussion of svoboda on CNN?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

14. yes. we know that is bound to happen. UNLESS Putin can save the day!....

one can only hope. I get so hopeful when I see his biceps and realize this is the strongman Ukraine has needed all along.

[warrprayer]

22. care to adress the issues

instead of making silly remarks?

[Pretzel_Warrior]

24. you act as though the two are mutually exclusive

[warrprayer]

33. that is because

I feel that they are.
I've noticed you've been quite busy lately countering all the "Russian propaganda" (anti Svoboda posts) here. Mind telling me what your dog is in this fight?

[arcane1]

4. "And we'll never rest again, until every nazi dies"

[warrprayer]

9. freakin' awesome!

thanks!

[Pretzel_Warrior]

11. you're a few days late with that Russian propaganda

[okaawhatever]

13. I think we need to deduct five points for using Wiki instead of RT or RIA as a source. nt

[Pretzel_Warrior]

16. thought process..."They seem to be onto RT and RIA. I know! WIKIPEDIA!!"

[warrprayer]

23. Fuck all Nazis!

if that is Russian propaganda, then I am indeed a Russian propagandist.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

28. the part about them controlling Ukrainian government is propaganda

but I applaud your brave stand againt Nazis.

What are your thoughts on the controversial issue of whether stomping cute kittens is acceptable? I am betting you're against it.

[warrprayer]

32. please post credible sources

that show me Svoboda is not in control of the security department in Kiev. I'm all ears.

[okaawhatever]

12. I read the first sentence and that's all it took to know that you haven't researched much about

what's going on. Put me in the nyet column for buying the Putin propaganda.

[warrprayer]

29. as I said, feel free

to post credible sources that dispute what I posted. I'll be waiting.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

15. You're using wikipedia as your source?

I hope you can do better than that.

[warrprayer]

26. feel free to post

information that credibly disputes the info I posted.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

31. Wikipedia doesn't have much credibility is my point.

anyone can post anything there.

However this may be more informative of the situation going on there.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/03/03/3354631/ukraine-debt/

[warrprayer]

34. Hallelujah!

Thank you for contributing positively to the discussion!!!

the article does a good job of discussion the economic issues. No doubt Ukraine is tired of getting screwed by Russia.
I do not feel, however, that letting a bunch of Nazi punks gain control is the answer, indeed, it would be a nightmare far worse than the suffering these people have already endured.

[pampango]

27. As others have said, there is a far-right in every European country - much stronger than in Ukraine

in many cases. They are a minority in all those countries including Ukraine. I don't think you want Russia to invade France or the Netherlands where the far-right is much stronger than in Ukraine.

[warrprayer]

30. I want somebody to stop nazis

before they accumulate enough power to start implementing ethnic cleansing, etc.

[pampango]

36. They definitely need to be monitored. I fear ethnic cleansing is at least as likely from the other

side in Ukraine. You don't have to a a nazi to believe in ethnic cleansing. The idea that different ethnicities in Ukraine and any other country (Russian-speaking, Ukrainian-speaking, Tatars, Hispanics, Asians, Blacks, Whites) cannot live together is the essence of right wing "we" have got to be afraid of and can't live along side "them".

Ultra-nationalist racism is strong in Russia as well. In the long run, I believe the far-right (with its homophobia and ultra-religion) might better thrive in Ukraine under Russian guidance than under the EU with its liberal social policies.

[warrprayer]

44. isn't this a rerun of sorts

of Bosnia when Clinton intervened?

[pampango]

45. How so? Clinton was not intervening in Bosnia to protect Americans or English-speakers. n/t

[warrprayer]

50. if I remember correctly

Clinton intervend to stop ethnic cleansing.

[pampango]

58. Quite true. Ethnic cleansing that had already occurred, was continuing and for which

there are international trials and have been convictions. The perpetrators of that ethnic cleansing were as close to nazis as you can get.

Intervening to stop atrocities that one thinks might be happen in the future may be a commendable idea but it sure opens up possibilities for strong countries to intervene regularly in small countries.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

38. Why are you bringing up a party that clearly is a miinority party in Ukraine?

And where there's been no actual evidence that any ethnic cleansing or significant violence targeted against any ethnic minorities in Ukraine at any recent time?

Yes, Nazis are evil. We all know that.

Yes, there are some neo-nazis in Ukraine. I won't deny that.

But why are you doing this, other than just to stir the shit?

[warrprayer]

43. because they are in control

of the ministry of defense/security and want to exterminate large groups of innocent people.
Oh, and also because our corporate media is NOT bringing it up. I like to piss them off for making me watch stupid commercials.

[LiberalEsto]

55. Run for your lives!

Don't you know
the Nazis are coming!
and the Aliens!
and the Fly People of Bango Bango!
and the Tea Party!
and the Kochroaches!
and the aluminum siding salespeople!



I've got enough to worry about with being out of work for more than 5 years, this fucking endless winter, the goddamned frackers who are destroying everything they can, the 1%, etc.

[warrprayer]

53. All You Fascists Bound to LOSE

[L0oniX]

59. Ukraine Ethnic Purity Extremists threaten Russians, Jews, non-whites

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/03/02/1281474/-Ukraine-Ethnic-Purity-Extremists-Neo-Nazis-threaten-Russians-Jews-non-whites

[warrprayer]

61. thanks loonix!

it seems some on here have a vested interest of some sort in denying this. I would love to know what this interest is. Could it possibly have something to do with some peoples portofolio?