Not deterring Russia will have the same effect as not deterring Germany in Czechoslovakia in 1938

[BrentWil]

There are Russian ethnic groups throughout the old Soviet Union. If Putin is allowed to annex the eastern Ukraine and perhaps the whole state, it will have the same effect as it did for Hitler in 1938. Aggression will be rewarded. There is no political will to stop it. This will continue. Putin has said that the USSR dissolving is one of the biggest mistakes in history. Unless he is deterred here by some means, he may continue to try to make the map look like this:

[Scootaloo]

1. Duh, Godwinning

[Rectangle]

57. And, how did Hitler end up? n/t

[amandabeech]

60. Causing the deaths of about 50 million people in Europe

with a few from North America thrown in before he was stopped.

I'm sure Uncle Bernie knows all about that.

Some people think that if Hitler had been forced to remove his military from the Rhineland, which had been demilitarized under the Versailles treaty, those 50 million or so people would have enjoyed a normal peaceful full life, at least those outside the Soviet Union. Stalin had very thin skin and a huge gulag.

Not that I'm advocating starting WWIII, but I think that Putin's invasion of Ukraine should be taken seriously.

[JaneyVee]

63. Say what you will about Hitler, but....

At least he killed Hitler. Ba dun dun tshhh.

[Pretzel_Warrior]

2. It's geography

[jsr]

3. Which will lead to a Holocaust.

[BrentWil]

13. Well, there already some reports of abuses to non-Russians NT

[Bandit]

4. BS, if anything it will be more like USSR occupying Chechoslovakia in the sixties.

Nothing came of that at all except for USSR gaining more territory. The USA was completely amazed that the USSR could pull off such an assault without any radio communications, but never for a moment considered going to war over it.

[amandabeech]

61. The Czechs are extremely alarmed about the Russian incursion.

As are the Poles, who have convened a NATO meeting on the basis of a threat to their country.

The Eastern Europeans have dealt with both Hitler and Stalin and they're worried.

That should tell us all something.

[mahina]

86. You were right

[L0oniX]

5. OFFS ...not this shit again.

“Washington also ignored that Kiev’s newly established regime trampled on the February 21 agreement, signed by foreign ministers of Germany, France and Poland, and formed the “government of winners” that de-facto declared a war on the Russian language and everything Russian.”

http://en.ria.ru/russia/20140303/188058665/Russia-Slams-Kerrys-Threats-over-Ukraine.html

[Fumesucker]

6. Congratulations on your enlistment

DU is very proud of you.

[aristocles]

7. Not likely

The two situations may seem superficially similar but they fundamentally and completely different.

[Rex]

8. Keep beating those war drums!

[Democracyinkind]

9. This is just ridiculous.

As if Ostexpansion had anything to do with ethnic minorities after 1938. Of course, we all know that you're not serious, just having fun again.

BTW- are you by any chance related to Brentspeaks?

[BrentWil]

20. Actually...

Hitler used the German population and abuses to them to invade.

[Democracyinkind]

27. Actually, the history if these minorities - such as the "Volga Germans" proves that

the Ostexpansion had nothing to do with them. You can lecture me about Nazis all you want, aber ich glaube nicht dass Dich das besonders gescheit aussehen lässt.

And really - are you related to Brentspeak? Is he your cousin or something?

[reformist2]

10. Do you really vote for Democrats?

[BrentWil]

14. Yes. Didn't know I had to be lock step with....

Conventional wisdoms here.

[11 Bravo]

23. It's an all volunteer army, Sluggo. If you lost your enlistment papers, I can send new ones.

[BrentWil]

26. Can't join twice. NT

[11 Bravo]

30. Sure you can. Or are you on active duty? If so, what's your MOS?

[BrentWil]

34. Was 11A. Changed over to 59A.

[BlackSkimmer]

84. Oops.

[Scootaloo]

73. Don't worry, we emply mercenary firms now!

Just send your resume over to Blackwater or Xe or whatever they call themselves these days, they'll kit you out and you can go blast you some ruskies!

[L0oniX]

69. Calling Dr Strangelove ...Dr Strangelove ...wanted at the ICBM launch pad.

[okaawhatever]

11. There are two ways to show the true weakness of Putin. One is an overwhelming military

presence, the other is to allow the plan he has so carefully orchestrated to fail. The NATO countries aren't losing the game, they're changing the game. Putin is a strategist, he wants this done in the way he calculated and on his time table. That's already not happening. For Putin this is totally and completely a PR/Propaganda led military exercise designed to make him look like a strong leader. People already aren't biting. Yeah, they got one navy commander to jump ship, but now there's a recording of a Russian General trying to talk other sailors into defecting and it's a huge embarrassment for Putin. Not only did they not defect, the Russian General's appeal was pathetic "The international community trusted us to host the Olympics, they don't just trust that to anybody." OMG Really?

Putin's goal is to show NATO as a paper tiger, and to tamp down resistance at home. People will think twice about protesting in the streets of Moscow and Georgia if the protesters in Ukraine fail. It may require military intervention, but this is a long game. Remember, the military was practically ready to overthrow Kennedy during the Cuban Missile Crisis. Luckily for us, he didn't listen.

[go west young man]

80. Nice post.....

didn't realize how much we were similar to Free Republic....until now.

[Xolodno]

12. So if shit went down in Mexico...

..., a Central American Nation....or Caribbean island....the US Government should not get involved?.........



....oh wait

[GeorgeGist]

21. Who can forget the menace of ...

Grenada?

[Nevernose]

24. We sure taught 200 Cuban construction workers

Not to fuck with the U S of A! Murica!

[GP6971]

51. I'll never forget

the troops getting on the planes to go to Grenada. They were coming out of the alert barracks and boarding the planes and the ground crews were wheeling on the ammo carts.....some young kid said "they don't pay me enough to do this shit". 1983

[amandabeech]

29. I don't condone what the US has done in the past, but with Obama, I think that

we are putting some of our more outrageously imperialistic behavior in the past. I just hope that we Dems are able to elect someone with a bit of reticence in foreign policy in 2016. I'm not sure that Hilary Clinton has that reticence.

With respect to the situation in Ukraine, particularly Crimea, NO shots have been fired at Russia or any of the military bases that she has leased from Ukraine. As far as I know, Ukraine has not asked Russia to abandon those rightfully leased bases or put any new limits on activities that Russia may pursue on those bases.

There are no reports that the Ukraine military has shot any ethnic or any passport holding Russian on Ukrainian territory.

The only thing to which Russia objects technically is that the current Ukrainian government does not include Yanukovich as specified in an agreement negotiated among the Europeans, the US and the Ukrainian government. The Russian delegate in that negotiation, the Foreign Minister Lavrov, left thenegotiations and went back to Russia before the deal was signed. Generally, contracts cannot be enforced by someone who was not a signatory. In any event, the protestors at Maidan square refused the agreement and without being asked, Yanukovich left Ukraine.

Putin seems to think that because his guy is no longer in charge of Ukraine, that the base leases that Russia holds from Urkaine in the Crimea will be abrogated. That may be what Putin would do in a similar situation, but the current Ukrainian government has done no such thing.

It is reasonable for Russia to be concerned about an irregular change of presidential power in an important neighboring country. It would be appropriate for Russia to ask to meet with the current government to inquire about the continuing validity of the leases for the military bases on Crimea. However, absent any actual threatening actions on the part of the Ukrainian government, I see no basis whatsoever for Russia's aggressive actions.

Furthermore, Russia has guaranteed the territorial integrity of Ukraine in the 1994 Budapest agreement, in which the UK and the US also guaranteed Ukraine's integrity in exchange for Ukraine's delivery of all nuclear weapons on its soil to Russia. I believe that there was another agreement in 1997 in which Russia agreed to abide by the current borders between Russia and Ukraine.

To sum up, Russia needs to back down now and move its military assets back to bases whether those bases are in Ukraine or Russia.

If the US invades another country on a similar pretext, I will be the first to object, and you are welcome to do as well, but to give Russia a carte blanche because of US foreign policy blunders in the past simply does nothing to move international relations toward the rule of law now and for the future.

[Xolodno]

36. I agree..

...my point was the US government has little to go on given its hypocrisy....and given that my wife is half Persian...and has family that went though the Shah imposition...

But we cannot ignore that Crimea was part of Russia until it was moved to Ukraine for administrative purposes...and we cannot ignore that Russian troops have essentially walked into Crimea unopposed...and welcomed. And of course, Russia has yet to invade Eastern Ukraine...which it could arguably..."walk into".

Russia has predominately been attacked from the west...and their paranoia is not without reason. They see the overthrow of the Ukraine government as coup....and if it were pro west government...the west would also say it was coup as well. Ukraine is a victim of all or nothing policies...because of its geography. The 1997 agreement stated no interference by West or East for Ukraine...but it's obvious the US government has not held to that bargain...whereas the EU has.

The question comes down to territorial integrity vs. self determination vs. something in between. I believe Ukraine can have a nation that mends east and west...but I also believe there are players who see this as a threat....and will do everything they can to prevent this.

[amandabeech]

43. Russia agreed to the current boundaries of Ukraine upon the breakup of the Soviet Union.

Under international law, it is illegal to cross borders and grab territory, even if no one there has the guts to come out an object in the face of guns.

Who has attacked Russia? Nobody.

Who buys Russia's products and has accepted Russia into the WTO? Everybody.

The United States and Russian militaries have been engaged in exchange programs and Russia has participated in international military operations against piracy.

Historians have noticed a tendency for Russia to see enemies where they have none.

This seems to be one of those times.

[Xolodno]

50. And one can argue at the break up of the Soviet Union...

...Yeltsin was a patsy given that he had little position of power. He could have been deposed at a moments notice and was in his best interest to negotiate something quickly and get it done.

Who attacked Russia? That's a very narrow point of view, period. With the advancement of NATO east, the country of Georgia starting a war during the Olympics (sound familiar?). The Russian leadership would be grossly naive and negligent if it didn't take into consideration what was going on its borders.

Yes...Russia is now in the WTO...to the US government dismay. Which means, sanctions are useless.

Russia has a tendency to see enemies where they have none? Yes...Iraq was such perfect example. And when you add that a leader of the Ukraine was deposed with semi-questionable terms....and add obvious US interference (and we know from Victora Nunlands comments)...I think its obvious whats going on.....

I'm not defending Putin's actions...but I'm not defending the actions from "our government" either. Ukraine could have formed an agreement with both east and west....but, given their location....Crimea...etc....too many on the "intelligence side" got greedy...irregardless of the people who may get harmed.

[amandabeech]

56. You seem to be justifying a return of Russia to the Soviet borders.

And you seem to be justifying a Russian veto over Ukrainian government actions.

You say that you are not defending Putin's actions, but I cannot imagine how you could do it any more than you are.

Defending someone who throws dissenters like Pussy Riot into a Siberian prison for two years is just so cool.

good-day

[Xolodno]

70. So who has been drinking too much Vwodka?

Seriously..if Mexico went hard core "Russia"...you actually think the US government would not take notice and not take action? Despite past history?

I don't like it...but shoot...we know if a nation starts going into upheaval....border nations will take notice and action.

And nice attempt at deflection...Pussy Riot went to prison in Siberia for two years....a shit load less than some of my family members went for...so pardon my French when I say...from the bottom of my heart....with most earnestly...and heart felt gratitude when I say......GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!

The Ukraine was put into a situation it never wanted to be in..but do to geography and sharing a border with Russia was thrust into. The Sovereign nation of Ukraine had a good chance...of being a great nation melding east and west Europe...but other powers intervened and interfered. As my wife can attest...who is half Persian..US interference has not always been "good"

Oh and I knew people personally that were thrown into prison by the US government because they refused to kill others during WWI,
WW2, the Korean War and the Vietnam War...So let me say this again...GO FUCK YOURSELF!!!

[dlwickham]

77. is it against DU policy to question people with low post counts?

like say a poster with less than 600 posts coming across like a Russian shill?

[Jenoch]

64. Crimea was part of Russia only because

Russia was the dominent force in the region. Crimea was historically populated by Tartars, not Russians.

I will also add that while I am of course not a fan of the U.S. invasion of Iraq, we did not do it to add geography to the U.S. control. Russia has historically invadd other countries to create an empire.

[Xolodno]

71. I'll debate that...

...Russia was in need of "warm ports"...and fought hard and lost a lot of lives to get them. And the Tatars did indeed control Crimea....but here is the question...and the complexity...If Russia gives Crimea back to the Tatar's.....should the US government give back most of its current territory back to the Native Americans? Not saying what happened is right...but...if we start imposing conditions...they need to apply universally.

[Jenoch]

75. I am not aware of anyone suggesting

that Crimea be restored back to an independent country controlled by Tartars. Just as I am unaware of Hawaii being restored to an independent kingdom. Hell, I'm sure even the native Hawaiians would not wish that.

FYI, Russia cannot give Crimea back to the Tartars since it is a part of Ukraine.

[Squinch]

32. Did someone move Ukraine to the Caribbean? Technology is amazing!

[Xolodno]

37. Did someone move Cuba to Europe? I agree technologh is amazing.

[Avalux]

15. All these theories are interesting. So tell me - what about China?

No one is talking about them. It would be foolish to believe they will not be of influence in this whole thing.

[quinnox]

16. Alrighty then. Next time someone says its hyperbole that some are comparing Putin to Hitler

we now have a solid thread link!

[Renew Deal]

17. Would the difference be that Putin is reclaiming his own turf?

So people outside of the old Soviet states see it as Russia's business?

[amandabeech]

35. In 1994 under the Budapest agreement, Russia, the US and the UK agreed to protect

Ukrainian territorial integrity in exchange for which Ukraine surrendered to Russia Soviet nuclear weapons that were still on Ukrainian soil.

I believe that Russia also agreed to Ukraine's borders in another 1997 agreement.

Just because Putin was not personally a signatory to those agreements does not mean that he, as the duly elected president of Russia, is not bound by them.

Ukraine was not an independent country until the fall of the Soviet Union in the early 1990s. The western parts were at one time part of the Poland/Lithuanian empire and spent some time as part of Austria Hungary, and the east has been part of Russia.

Boundaries between what is now Germany and Austria and Moscow have been extremely fluid for centuries. But that is really no excuse for dishonoring currently recognized boundaries that have been set since the Soviet Union imploded around 1990.

Putin believes that the worst crisis of the 20th century was the fall of the Soviet Union around 1990 under Gorbachev and Yeltsin, and Putin wants to re-establish that empire. It is as though he wants to be some sort of combination of a Russian Tsar and Stalin. None of the Tsars and none of the Soviet rulers until Gorbachev did much good in the world, particularly for people living near their borders. It is unlikely that Putin would be any better.

I don't think that anybody who remembers the Cold War wants to go back to that, although the usual slimy money bags think that it won't catch up to them.

But I don't think that anyone who remembers what fighting was like in the east in WWI and WWII wants to go back to that either.

What Putin's doing should not be ignored, but it should not take us to the brink of war, either.

Oh, by the way, Angela Merkel, who speaks to Putin in German and Russian, said that when she talked to Putin yesterday, he seemed to be living outside reality. That was reported, and then disappeared on the NYT website. The BBC has it, though. This is a very touchy situation.

[Renew Deal]

66. Thanks for the info

[nadinbrzezinski]

18. oy

Wrong era...

[jpak]

19. Yes - the Russian Army will soon occupy nuclear-armed NATO

and the Mighty Russian Navy will soon rule the 7 seas.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!111

[BrentWil]

22. No.

However the aim is very destabilizing. Even if one can't accomplish a bad goal, it is not useful. Hitler didn't accomplish his goals either.

[Vinnie From Indy]

25. Just curious to know if you think your map and your arguments

have persuaded anyone reading them here on DU that there is a viable and preferable military option that we should be considering to respond to Russia's actions in Ukraine. You seem to be all by your lonesome with this view.

[Democracyinkind]

28. That's because it's for shits and giggles, and not for recs. IMHO.

[BrentWil]

33. No idea

Thought this was an outlet for people who are democrats. Didn't know that persuading was a requirement.

[1000words]

42. You don't play coy very well, either.

Feel free to continue, though. It's fast becoming comical performance art.

[Vinnie From Indy]

45. It is not a requirement, but when you

actually attempt to persuade, asking you if you have persuaded anyone seems a pretty legit question. I mean you did write, "Unless he is deterred here by some means". That looks an awful lot like someone trying to persuade to me.

[brentspeak]

65. "Thought this was an outlet for people who are democrats"

Yeah, going out of your way to point out the obvious that you are interacting with Democrats here really convinced me you are an actual Democrat...

[Warren Stupidity]

47. I think they give out awards at CC and FR.

[tularetom]

31. Hey McCain, why don't you just go back to chasing kids off your lawn

You analogy isn't making a lot of sense.

[TBF]

38. FFS. nt

[LittleBlue]

39. Unrec

That's a stretch.

You want to fight our enemies so bad, why aren't you in the military?

[nolkyz]

40. PUH-leeze!

There's only so far Putin can go: He will NOT, for example, send troops to the Baltic Republics, because they're a part of NATO, which would automatically trigger WWIII.

[Douglas Carpenter]

44. or even the Turkish invasion of Northern Cypress or the NATO/Kosovo agression against Serbia

[FSogol]

46. Unrec. Ridiculous hyperbole. n/t

[Effete Snob]

83. Oh really?

[FSogol]

85. Yes really. From this OP's vintage post: "There is no political will to stop it."

Ukraine, the EU and the US are attempting to stop it. The US House last night voted to give $40 billion more to stop it.

[druidity33]

88. Wait, did you not see the year on the OP? nt.

[FSogol]

89. I did. Someone felt the need to call me out over an 8 year old comment, so I

Responded.

[frwrfpos]

48. Putin wants to conquer the world!

and has boxes in his garage! and dares to call the US on its cia funded and trained coup in Ukraine.

Too bad for US propaganda and their unwavering unthinking followers

[H2O Man]

49. Lions and tigers and bears!

Oh, my!

[laundry_queen]

52. Is that you John Baird?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/john-baird-compares-russia-s-actions-in-ukraine-to-nazi-invasion-of-czechoslovakia-1.2558118

[Vashta Nerada]

53. Why does everything always come back to Hitler and Nazis?

[fujiyama]

54. Is there an award for invoking Godwin's law the most times?

I say this as someone that believes Putin's action are nuts and destabilizing. But I am well aware (and you should be too) that options really are very limited to economic and political pressure. The actual use of force is NOT on the table, contrary to whatever Kerry is mouthing off.

If the US didn't actually get into a direct shooting war with the USSR during the Cold War, there's no chance of it happening now. I am however grateful at times like this that we have a president who thinks through these situations. Can you imagine how a President McCain, Palin, or Romney would have reacted?

If you want to be taken seriously quit with the Nazi/Hitler analogies. It's not helping the more real case that should be made now - that Russia needs to be completely isolated and made into a political pariah. Only a DIPLOMATIC effort can achieve that. Not a bunch of useless saber rattling which RW regimes all around the world are all too good at doing.

[BrentWil]

79. Did I mention use of military force in OP? NT

[malaise]

55. First rate BS

and idiocy.

[davekriss]

58. Why? The U.S. was not deterred after invading Iraq (on 'trumped up pretenses')

You say "Aggression will be rewarded. There is no political will to stop it. This will continue."

Why conclude that? After the United States invaded Iraq on 'trumped up pretenses' (I think that's how Kerry out it) it did not continue into Syra and Iran. We could not afford it (the empire is hollowed out and risks collapse).

Why can't Crimea be the end of Putin's march? Where will he draw the resources to do more?

(I am not trying to be snarky, I just think you make a bold leap here. However, 'two wrongs do not make a right' etc etc)

[idendoit]

67. If you don't know what he's talking about, why respond?

Did you want to share something of note...doesn't look like it.

[cthulu2016]

68. I take your point. The OP is accurate in what it literally says.

[JaneyVee]

62. When do you deploy?

[ibegurpard]

72. and?

what do you suggest? launch the missiles now? send the millions upon millions of troops we have waiting around that aren't already deployed in Aghanistan, Iraq, and other places (that was sarcasm by the way)?

We stand with the rest of the world to object to it and use every means of political pressure we have to oppose it. Nothing else can be done at this point.

[Hippo_Tron]

74. We're not rewarding aggression by any stretch of the imagination

Chamberlain walked into a room with Hitler and told him "you can have the Sudetenland just as long as you promise not to take anything else".

The US and its allies aren't telling Putin "take Ukraine that's cool with us". Just because we're not going in there guns a blazing doesn't mean that there won't be repercussions nor that we're not committed to defending Poland and other NATO members.

[TheKentuckian]

76. Again, STEP AWAY FROM THE RISK BOARD and PUT DOWN THE CONTROL PAD

[WilliamPitt]

78. Heh.

You troll well.

[Democracyinkind]

81. Well, there used to by a time when he got dozens of recs for it.

No country for old trolls, I guess.

[pnwmom]

82. Not long ago, they were all together in the Soviet Union.

We didn't act in that crisis, and we should stay out of this one. I don't see how it's our business, really.

[czarjak]

87. Not to mention what the book that nothing beats says about Russia...

Bad Putin is on the wrong side. THAT, I can tell you, rubes.