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Tommy_Carcetti

(43,173 posts)
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:49 PM Mar 2014

When you intentionally distort events in a foreign country in order to further conspiracy theories..

....you are not doing the people of that country any favors, no matter how much you swear up and down you claim to be acting in their interest.

You can't just sit back in your chair and spout out tinfoil lunacy about events on the news that have affected real people in ways you can never imagine and then just claim you are an advocacy for "truth" when your "truth" denies so much that has been seen with real people's own eyes.

I'm really sick of this type of behavior.

34 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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When you intentionally distort events in a foreign country in order to further conspiracy theories.. (Original Post) Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 OP
Mr. Pot, meet Mr. Kettle. nt rdharma Mar 2014 #1
Please proceed, governor. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #4
"The people desire austerity!!! All else must be a conspiracy theory!!!1!!" Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #2
The only authentic revolutions happen in the west nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #5
Nonsense. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #6
Uhm, yeah, because there was no discernible foreign influence in the American revolution? Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #8
And because of the French actions nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #11
There's no revolution without people. I don't think anyone is stupid enough to not get that. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #18
When people ignore internal dynamics nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #21
Why no mention of FSB? My guess: Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #25
There you go, the kind of complexity missing here. nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #29
Good point. Ok in his case an agent of the yet nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #9
I've yet to see one of those flawless western revolutions. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #7
Because that is the only read at this point I can get nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #10
My point is not that "they" made the revolution. Rather it is that "they" will get what they want Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #13
In that we agree, this is as real politic and zero sum as it gets nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #15
Not quite sure what you mean, Nadin. polly7 Mar 2014 #12
What I mean us that there was an organic revolution in the streets nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #16
'Organic'? uhhhh, ok. nt. polly7 Mar 2014 #22
So you truly believe the people in the streets are our agents? nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #23
No, that's not what I truly believe at all. It's a bit more complex. polly7 Mar 2014 #24
Not a bit more complex nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #27
Me too Demeter Mar 2014 #3
Very True, Sir, And It Is Unfortunate It Needed To Be Said The Magistrate Mar 2014 #14
It's unfortunate that people will take Paul Craig Roberts and VoiceofRussia as gospel truth... Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #17
Fomenting a RW coup in a foreign country is the ultimate stomp on the folks Zorra Mar 2014 #19
Oh for fuck's sake. Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #26
I did not know nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #28
Tommy, some are here shilling for Putin, plain and simple. I don't know whether they're paid or okaawhatever Mar 2014 #20
Didn't take long for that "straw man" to be thrown out. rdharma Mar 2014 #30
'We are all Georgians, Ukrainians, .... but not Crimeans, and certainly not Iraqis' polly7 Mar 2014 #31
Oh, give Kerry a break. That IWR vote gave him a headache. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #32
Conspiracy theories are catnip to a lot of people. Benton D Struckcheon Mar 2014 #33
Direct CIA involvement or not, can everyone here AT LEAST agree Blue_Tires Mar 2014 #34

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,173 posts)
4. Please proceed, governor.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:57 PM
Mar 2014

How am I the one pushing conspiracy theories on here that are in direct contravention of actual events?

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
11. And because of the French actions
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:10 PM
Mar 2014

All the organic internal elements better be ignored, which is the point we are trying hard to make. Nuance.

Democracyinkind

(4,015 posts)
18. There's no revolution without people. I don't think anyone is stupid enough to not get that.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:16 PM
Mar 2014

The really stupid part is pretending that pointing out foreign meddling somehow invalidates the people's efforts.

IMHO, I'm not the one making the accusation that some french influence on the American Revolution somehow renders the Boston Massacre or Battle of Concord irrelevant.

IMHO, it is the other mindset - such as exemplified in this thread - that supports this silly notion.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
21. When people ignore internal dynamics
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:22 PM
Mar 2014

Time after time after time, it is not silly to point to them.

By the way, the FSB is also meddling on all this. I hardly hear them mentioned. I wonder why that is?

In fact, the Crimean vote to break from Ukraine and join the Russian Federation is both internally organic and Russian meddling. See nuance. That is what is missing in a lot of posts, and how what happened in the streets is ignored regularly, cause we all know everything that happens around the world...I'll stop there.

Suffice it to say, I grew up in a country where Uncle Sam interferes regularly and meddles regularly. Still, there are many, most in fact, of local politics that is organically internal, and for god sakes we only share a border.

Democracyinkind

(4,015 posts)
25. Why no mention of FSB? My guess:
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:31 PM
Mar 2014

The FSB plays the game old-school, while American and German meddling has an institutional aspect that can be found in the public record.

Personally, I don't know much about Russian meddling because of that and because of the language barrier (I can only send so many articles to friends for translation before they start to demand feed for their services .....)

Of course Yanukowitsch would never have gaines power in Ukraine without Russian backing, which in this period simply means Putin's personal ok (backed by his handlers as well).

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
29. There you go, the kind of complexity missing here.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:45 PM
Mar 2014

If this was I don't know, Mexico and the US felt the Chinese or Russians were trying to pull Mexico away, how do you think we'd react? The Zimmerman telegraph is a very good hint of how the US would take that.

Democracyinkind

(4,015 posts)
7. I've yet to see one of those flawless western revolutions.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:02 PM
Mar 2014

How YOU could accuse me of having such an infantile worldview boggles my mind.

Is this the kind of nuance you argued for a couple of days ago? If yes, I'll gladly retract my rec.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
10. Because that is the only read at this point I can get
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:09 PM
Mar 2014

From the IMF/CIA/ MHQ behind every curtain. I am making light of it because this is far more complex than just austerity.

It is not accusation by the way. It is a dripping with sarcasm commentary on the general trend of posts here.

Been reading a lot onto the situation, the more I read the more muddled it is. There are elements of IMF in there, which has more internal competing factions than I care to mention at this point. But what this is for sure is complex and muddled. So ascribing one motivation is wrong

Democracyinkind

(4,015 posts)
13. My point is not that "they" made the revolution. Rather it is that "they" will get what they want
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:12 PM
Mar 2014

no matter what the people on Maidan died for. It's just what it is when there's a revolution in a geopolitical hotspot.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
16. What I mean us that there was an organic revolution in the streets
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:16 PM
Mar 2014

Remove those tensions, Yanucovich is still in charge.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
27. Not a bit more complex
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:35 PM
Mar 2014

A lot more complex. I rarely see that nuance. For the most part I have avoided the Ukraine threads. Three reasons.

1. While I have a masters in history with a minor in European history and quite a bit of reading into that area of the world, that matters not to people here. And trust me, been catching up on it since well shit, been concentrating on my very local politics due to work. So I have to do a lot of background reading to make sense of it. (And for the locals, that minor in poli sci has been exceedingly good)

2.- The OP is correct when he sees mostly a CIA/IMF/ NATO/ GHQ behind every curtain in many posts. For starters none (mostly) is mentioning the other series of alphabet soups starting with spetnatz and FSB, and ending with Kremlyn...or old, and I mean older than the US ethnic tensions.

3.- Yup, I also see constantly ignoring what is happening in the streets.

Yup, this is now quite annoying. Why I came and said my piece. I will mostly keep recusing myself from the threads by the way. But I had to say my piece.

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
3. Me too
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 12:56 PM
Mar 2014

Furthermore, when you provide solid source material to contradict the BS propaganda spin, you get dumped on even more.

The Magistrate

(95,244 posts)
14. Very True, Sir, And It Is Unfortunate It Needed To Be Said
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:13 PM
Mar 2014

The tendency is a product of ignorance of local realities and histories, naivety about people and processes, and determination to see one's preconceptions mirrored back from wherever one looks....

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,173 posts)
17. It's unfortunate that people will take Paul Craig Roberts and VoiceofRussia as gospel truth...
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:16 PM
Mar 2014

...simply because they think it makes them more independent minded.

Question? Yes. Gullibly believe anything that is put in front of your face while you discount events that you've observed with your own eyes? Absolutely not.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,173 posts)
26. Oh for fuck's sake.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:35 PM
Mar 2014

There was no fomenting a right wing coup in Ukraine.

Ukrainians on their own accord came out and protested in the streets because they wanted to.

Stop treating them like pawns in your tinfoil hat game.

 

nadinbrzezinski

(154,021 posts)
28. I did not know
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:41 PM
Mar 2014

the people of Ukraine spoke Spanish. Free clue, chile has like nothing to do with this. I mean it. And I speak as somebody born and raised in a country where the US did meddle regularly and that were truly, still are, distant neighbors.

okaawhatever

(9,461 posts)
20. Tommy, some are here shilling for Putin, plain and simple. I don't know whether they're paid or
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:22 PM
Mar 2014

volunteers drinking the kool-aid. This has been noticed on other sites as well. The same thing happened with the Georgia invasion. Just know that most of them aren't regular DUers and if their side was so right they wouldn't go to the lengths that they are to present a false narrative.

 

rdharma

(6,057 posts)
30. Didn't take long for that "straw man" to be thrown out.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:48 PM
Mar 2014

Shilling for Putin, eh? Riiiiight!

Why are you shilling for Svoboda and the Right Sector?

polly7

(20,582 posts)
31. 'We are all Georgians, Ukrainians, .... but not Crimeans, and certainly not Iraqis'
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 01:48 PM
Mar 2014

Funny how that works, eh?!

The truth about South Ossetia

After the west heaped blame on Russia for the conflict, it ignores new evidence of Georgia's crimes of aggression

Seumas Milne
theguardian.com, Friday 31 October 2008 16.15 GM

So now they tell us. Two months after the brief but bloody war in the Caucasus which was overwhelmingly blamed on Russia by western politicians and media at the time, a serious investigation by the BBC has uncovered a very different story.

Not only does the report by Tim Whewell – aired this week on Newsnight and on Radio 4's File on Four - find strong evidence confirming western-backed Georgia as the aggressor on the night of August 7. It also assembles powerful testimony of wide-ranging war crimes carried out by the Georgian army in its attack on the contested region of South Ossetia.

They include the targeting of apartment block basements – where civilians were taking refuge – with tank shells and Grad rockets, the indiscriminate bombardment of residential districts and the deliberate killing of civilians, including those fleeing the South Ossetian capital of Tskinvali.
The carefully balanced report – which also details evidence of ethnic cleansing by South Ossetian paramilitaries – cuts the ground from beneath later Georgian claims that its attack on South Ossetia followed the start of a Russian invasion the previous night.

At the time, the Georgian government said its assault on Tskinvali was intended to "restore constitutional order" in an area it has never ruled, as well as to counter South Ossetian paramilitary provocations. Georgian intelligence subsequently claimed to have found the tape of an intercepted phone call backing up its Russian invasion story – but even Georgia's allies balk at a claim transparently intended to bolster its shaky international legal position .


Full article: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/oct/31/russia-georgia


McCain tried his hardest to ramp that one up, too.

BY SATYAM KHANNA ON AUGUST 15, 2008 AT 9:51 AM

"McCain: Georgia conflict is the ‘first serious crisis internationally since the end of the Cold War.’"

Speaking at the Aspen Institute in Colorado yesterday, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) said that recent Russian aggression in Georgia is the “first…serious crisis internationally since the end of the Cold War.” McCain seemingly ignored the Gulf War, 9/11, and the Iraq War, to name a few:

My friends, we have reached a crisis, the first probably serious crisis internationally since the end of the Cold War. This is an act of aggression."


http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2008/08/15/27592/mccain-russia/


Senator John McCain: “We Are All Ukrainians”

In an interview with TIME, the Arizona Senator said Obama is “naïve” about Putin’s ambitions “to restore the Russian empire”

In response to reports of a Russian takeover in parts of Crimea, Arizona Senator John McCain said on Friday, “We are all Ukrainians,” before calling for swift U.S. economic aid to Ukraine, condemnation of Russia at the United Nations, sanctions against Russian officials and the installation of U.S. missiles in the nearby Czech Republic.

Russian President Vladimir Putin believes “this is a chess match reminiscent of the Cold War and we need to realize that and act accordingly,” McCain said, in an exclusive interview with TIME. “That does not mean I envision a conflict with Russia, but we need to take certain measures that would convince Putin that there is a very high cost to actions that he is taking now.”

McCain made his declaration in response to a question from TIME about his famous 2008 statement, “We are all Georgians,” issued when he was a Republican presidential candidate after Russia invaded Georgia. Asked whether he feels the same way about the plight of Ukraine six years later, he agreed. “We are all Ukrainians in the respect that we have a sovereign nation that is again with international boundaries… that is again being taken in as part of Russia,” he said in an interview in his Senate office. “That is not acceptable to an America that stands up for the rights of human beings. We are Georgians. And we are Ukrainians.”


Read more: John McCain Says We Are All Ukrainians, Takes On Putin | TIME.com http://swampland.time.com/2014/02/28/ukraine-john-mccain-putin-crimea/#ixzz2ufG28LBP

Benton D Struckcheon

(2,347 posts)
33. Conspiracy theories are catnip to a lot of people.
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:02 PM
Mar 2014

You find them all over the place, and I've found out from being here, on both sides of the political divide. The guy who runs global research.ca, on which a lot of the stuff you see posted here relies, thinks 9/11 was an inside job, for instance. I just saw a headline from that place, that Israeli folks under command of the Neo-Nazis had a hand in the Maidan demos. Riight. Israel is going to take orders from neo-Nazis. Yeesh.
You'd think someone with basic critical skills would know this isn't a reliable place to get news, but apparently not.
Reality just isn't real enough for some people, no matter how much actual evidence you put in front of them. I still don't at all understand what Putin did to deserve all this sympathy from people who claim to be on the left, but whatever. C'est l'internet, it seems, where no conspiracy theory is too crazy to be posted.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
34. Direct CIA involvement or not, can everyone here AT LEAST agree
Thu Mar 6, 2014, 02:25 PM
Mar 2014

1. The USA has a stake in a Ukraine more closely aligned with the EU instead of RU?

2. The USA is supporting the Ukrainian uprising (even if 'support' means nothing more than cheering from the sidelines?)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think those two points have been any big secret. (And I admittedly still don't know enough about the people and politics involved to confidently say the U.S. is backing the right or wrong side of history)...

And because of the first two realities, can we AT LEAST all agree that...

3. Points 1-2 influence all word and actions from the U.S. Gov't?

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