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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsAtheists’ misguided fight over the 9/11 memorial
In the battle between organizations whose main principles I often agree with and whose tantrums and publicity whore tactics regularly make me want to punch a wall, its usually a toss-up between PETA and American Atheists. But this week, you win, American Atheists.
The organization went to court this week to argue that a cross-shaped steel beam salvaged from the wreckage of the twin towers should not be part of the national 9/11 museum and memorial, which is scheduled to officially open in May. Its necessary to fight this because this is inequality on government property, says American Atheists president David Silverman. To quote Gru from Despicable Me, Whaaaaaaat?
Construction worker Frank Silecchia pulled the beam from the ruins of the towers shortly after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, and had the 17-foot-tall, 4,000-pound cross cut from it. It became in the days immediately following the tragedy an impromptu memorial, and a gathering place for people to leave messages and prayers. Silecchia said at the time, When I first saw it, it took my heart, and made me cry for about 20 minutes. It helped me heal the burden of my despair, and gave me closure on the whole catastrophe. It was subsequently blessed by ground zero chaplain Father Brian Jordan.
.......
If you want to get offended over the placement of Christian imagery in a memorial to a historic event, youre going to be pissed off at a whole lot of museums and even more of history itself. That cross is part of what happened. Its part of the building that was destroyed and its part of the experience of the people who worked on the recovery efforts afterward and its part of the experience of the visitors who paid their respects after them. It just is. This isnt a school system trying to sneak Bibles into the classrooms. This isnt the Ten Commandments in a courthouse. You want to fight against that religious infiltration into public life? I am on your side. You want to keep church and state separate? Me too. But you want to pitch a fit over an item thats a clear-cut part of the story because you dont like what it symbolizes? Youre mad theres no 9/11 equivalent to that 17-foot cross because apparently nobody had the foresight to pull a satisfying secular symbol out of the wreckage? Please, just grow up. Because in this fight, you havent got a prayer.
http://www.salon.com/2014/03/07/atheists_misguided_fight_over_the_911_memorial/
blkmusclmachine
(16,149 posts)Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)And quite a few of those are Christian. If this cross structure protruding from the ruins of WTC helps them porocess it, who is some jackass atheist zealot to get in the way? Stupid, stupid intolerance.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)to "A memorial to a terrorist atrocity shall not include a historically significant item recovered from the wreckage which happens to have the same shape as the symbol for one particular religion".
SunsetDreams
(8,571 posts)Gore1FL
(21,030 posts)phil89
(1,043 posts)How so?
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)It took until Tony fucking Bliar said "People of all religions and no religion at all" before atheists ever got so much as a mention. And there are at least as many atheists in the US as Jews.
After the first couple of days I started actively listening for any mention of those of us who are unable to believe in a god, no Americans on my television ever mentioned us.
Remember when Wolf Blitzer harassed that poor atheist woman who was a survivor of the tornado about "Didn't you pray to God?".
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)and how aggrieved I was because people were talking about God with no mention of comforting atheists.
But even if I did feel that way THIRTEEN years ago, I wouldn't begrudge people of faith wanting that cross on display.
It's not like they were lining up atheist on TV and humiliating them because this tragedy didn't cause them to believe in God.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Christians were hurting and that got mentioned, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, all were hurting and got their mention and their solace.
And yet it was highly religious people who caused the carnage in the first place.
I'm used to being left out so it didn't really bother me but I did think it was ironic, I'm not sure if there has ever been an atheist suicide bomber for godlessness.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Or something like that.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)like to shove it down your throat and then tell you that you are the one thinking only of yourself?
What a bunch of jackasses. For some of us, having Christianity shoved in our faces means way more than just someone following their religion. For me, it means rape, literally raped in the name of god back in 1989. I guess I'm supposed to just love that and look forward to more of the love of god, in the form of more rape happening to me. Sorry, in your face Christians, I won't be doing that. It's called weaponry and the next damn time some asshole tries that shit on me, it is going to be a bloodbath, theirs. I'm so goddamn sick of their shit.
Mariana
(14,849 posts)This is who was responsible for 9/11, according to them:
JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this.
PAT ROBERTSON: Well, yes.
JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen'.
PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)ANY chance they get to bash the GLBT community and women, they jump on it, whether it has anything to do with what happened or not. They will literally make stuff up as they go along JUST to bash people, then scream that they are being oppressed when some of us object to that religion being shoved down our throats at every turn.
stopbush
(24,376 posts)Hestia
(3,818 posts)The Majors have the PR - we can't even get equal access to the Constitution or the law.
I say take it down too - why should the public see the constant symbols of a death cult - which is what christianity is.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)The Straight Story
(48,121 posts)Moses at the Supreme court:
http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/courtbuilding.aspx
Just to name a few. The Supreme court also has the three fates (Greek Mythology) and so on.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)If you take the mythology out of Christianity, there isn't much left.
stopbush
(24,376 posts)It's a collection of fables, a historical novel, at best. Sort of like Gone With The Wind - set in a real time populated by real people but giving the lead roles to fictional characters.
Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)Almost all biblical mythology was plagiarized from earlier mythology.
Even Jesus himself and even the New Testament were largely the product of common era historical revisionism. None of the gospels were written by those in which they are attributed, and the only evidence for the holy trinity was inserted into the biblical texts centuries after they were written. There's a few nuggets of historical fact contained in the bible, but the vast majority of it is smoke and mirrors hocus pocus.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I believe the more accurate term would be "acculturation" rather than"plagiarized"... unless your looking for melodrama rather than accuracy.
Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)Since we are talking about mythological stories and written works rather than culture which would be far more inclusive.
YMMV.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)A guy born of a deity-raped virgin who came back to life and is going to return to Earth at some point is not a myth? Seriously?
I get that some people think the teachings attributed to the figure Christ are good, but I'd be surprised if many people, if they are honest with themselves, actually believe, deep down, that the entire basis of the religion is anything other than a myth.
blueamy66
(6,795 posts)A deity raped virgin? Wow, just wow.
Hestia
(3,818 posts)Christos in their time.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)The attitude I see is: "Well stories relating to Zeus and Thor and Isis and Mohammad and Joseph Smith are clearly mythology, but stories about Jesus are not ... just because that's the particular brand of story that I'm culturally familiar with and it "sounds" right to me."
blueamy66
(6,795 posts)Quit pigeonholing people. I don't quote scripture.
I am a Catholic/Christian that has many friends of many beliefs/religions.....Buddhists, Islam, Hindu, Mormon, Baptist, agnostic, atheist, Wiccan.....I have never told them that their beliefs were based on a myth.
Maybe you should become more "familiar" with other people/cultures/familes/countries....whatever......
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)which is one reason I can see that all cultures have their own stories, but there is nothing to make one particular religious story "true" as opposed to the others. There is nothing to say that the resurrection of Jesus really happened, but, say, the Golden Tablets story is just a story. They're all stories.
However, some "religions," like Buddhism, do give some good, practical guidelines for living your day-to-day life, and I admire that.
marew
(1,588 posts)mr blur
(7,753 posts)It is a collection of myths.
treestar
(82,383 posts)Moses was a religious figure, but also a legal one.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Or it can be read as a rather ridiculous* attempt to appropriate the tragic murders as belonging only to the identity narratives of a particular religious group, which is kind of an insensitively zealous thing to do.
*See Post #77
amuse bouche
(3,657 posts)are the the ones seeing a religious symbol in ruble. Wasn't religion part of the motivation for 9/11 in the first place?
Are they decorating it with Jesus toast?
There will never be peace until worship of imaginary sky daddies dies off. The foolishness is pathetic
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Where people of many faiths go.
Poor oppressed xtians.
hlthe2b
(101,715 posts)Putting it on display as a remnant without attempts at "interpretation" is just fine with me.
RC
(25,592 posts)It was no such thing when pulled from the rubble.
People will believe what they want to, regardless. If it brings the families of the lost peace, so be it.
If it stands there and the viewer is allowed to interpret in their own way, who is it hurting?
RC
(25,592 posts)It is hurting non-Christians by the exclusion of any representation of their faith or lack there of.
Christians, which, BTW, are a minority world wide.
hlthe2b
(101,715 posts)blueamy66
(6,795 posts)nt
RC
(25,592 posts)Instead of that 'Cross' that had to be cut to shape to make it even.
I don't understand why or how, that the members of the majority religion in this country, Christianity, all 4000 some, various sects of it, that permeate our culture, act as if they are a persecuted minority, when in fact Christianity all but drowns out all other religious beliefs in their quest to make everyone think Christians are persecuted minority in this country, whenever they are stopped from running rough shod over non-Christians.
If Christianity were actually the one true religion, then why are there so many different versions of it?
Have a good day.
blueamy66
(6,795 posts)That is a question that you need to ask of God.
Nay
(12,051 posts)present orientation? In fact, why not turn it upside down right now and see how many Christians come flocking to it to have a little prayer.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)-Lenny Bruce
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Who would then take his own life using suicide by cop after a day long standoff.
A reboot of the Jesus story set in LA would be interesting.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)GoneOffShore
(17,309 posts)And so true!
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)But I don't get why it's some inspirational thing. I would think 3000 people being allowed to continue their lives would've been a more merciful act by an all-loving God than preserving a crossbeam from their grave.
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)i see the Mel Gibson / M. Night Shyalaman film "Signs" as pretty much the quintessential example of religious thinking. I would warn you of spoilers, but as i reccomend never watching it, I won't bother.
In this film, mel Gibson's character is an ordained minister who "lost the faith" when his wife died in a car crash some years back. he lives with his "quirky" family - his son's life revolves around the asthma inhaler, his daughter collects glasses of water, and his younger brother is trying ot hold onto the glory days of a professional baseball career after an injury benched him permanantly.
AND THEN ALIENS INVADE THE PLANET!!!
No seriously, aliens come down and snatch people. Tons and tons of people, apparently. They attack the Gibson farmhouse, and after lots of being stymied by boarded windows ("WOOD!" finally manage to break in and snatch Gibson's son... they try to use a gas to kill the kid - but since his asthma is flaring, it can't get into his lungs. A glass of water tips over, revealing hte aliens are allergic to water (...Smart move, invading earth, yutzes.) And so little brother grab his baseball bat and starts smashing all those glasses of water, melting the aliens.
End of the movie? Concludes that the entire thing was an ordeal from a "higher power" to show Gibson that everything has a purpose, and he regains his faith. end of movie.
Fuck those millions of people eaten by the dumbest aliens ever. They're not important. They're background noise to mel Gibson's personal development and his "relationship with god."
That's religion.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)What a waste of good film.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)I wish I could DU Rec this post right by itself. It sums up how most people practice their religion perfectly.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)It's a cross and it truly alienates some that are not Christian.
It is hard to appreciate if you are yourself not one of those people, but it does.
BTW, I don't want to fight about it. I am just sharing my viewpoint, ok?
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Profess religious people to be. How petty of a thing to get hung up on.
Full disclosure: I am agnostic.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Demanding that it may be removed is arguably intolerant.
Petty? I don't think it's petty.
I am sensitive to both sides of the issue and not sure where I stand -full disclosure. I doubt I would demand it be removed, but that does not stop me from also identifying with people who have been victims of religious iconery that is used to exclude them.
Pretzel_Warrior
(8,361 posts)Or anyone else's.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I appreciate you saying that. I'm personally making an effort today to try to reclaim what DU once was -instead of a place to continually get outraged and someone and exaggerate their position to the point where they become the personification of everything that is wrong and evil - I am trying to chill out and just talk and listen.
kwassa
(23,340 posts)I think the effort to reclaim DU is a great idea.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)and not at all inspirational.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Flashes back to siblings getting beaten up to refrains of "You killed Jesus!"
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)penultimate
(1,110 posts)makes other feel alienated. I'm not religious myself, but a cross has never made me felt alienated. Neither has a star of david, cresent and star, ying yang or anything else. It's a strange concept to me that I have a hard time understanding. Perhaps someone can explain why such symbols make them feel alienated, and maybe give a real life example. The most I've heard is people saying that it might make others feel alienated, but I've never had anyone say it makes them feel alienated.
*I'm not fighting, just curious.
LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)That the museum meant to honor the victims of 9/11, and which is located on PUBLIC LAND, is fighting so hard to keep a religious symbol (that was manufactured after the event) in the museum, and to keep a similar artifact honoring the non-religious victims OUT of the museum even though its being offered free of charge.
Believers get their memorial object and non-believers don't? And they are using PUBLIC land to promote one religious view and not the secular alternative?
Why shouldn't I feel alienated about this? They are pretty much saying our lives are not as important or worth honoring.
Beartracks
(12,761 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)starroute
(12,977 posts)A lot of people died on 9/11 who weren't Christians, but as usual the Christianists think it was all about them. And that is not a good thing.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)A crossbeam structure shows up in the wreckage of a building constructed of crossbeams?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)through it.
RC
(25,592 posts)Especially when it has to be cut to look like something other than more wreckage.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)For approximately the same reason that imaginary red and blue lines on a map give comfort to people, or imaginary philosophies give comfort to people.
But then again, I don't look for objective measures in comfort... I'll leave that to the combative.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)carnage and mass murder? Inquiring minds want to know.
blueamy66
(6,795 posts)Look it up....
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)So I guess prayer is pointless if your god doesn't intervene in anything.
blueamy66
(6,795 posts)nt
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)" is pointless if your god doesn't intervene in anything..."
Much as I use to think in regards to my parents when they failed to answer to my liking, or even answer at all, every single question I'd ever posed to them in my youth, regardless of how trivial or how much of a waste of both mine and their time the questions may have been...
After asking for, and being denied money to purchase Magical Sea-Horses when I was seven, I too decided that asking them for anything was pointless.
Tom Ripley
(4,945 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Gave comfort to many of us in this city.
LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)So that we can be comforted as well.
Seeing as the AA is offering to pay for it, that does not seem to be too much to ask.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)I am Just really angry at how the AA/us atheists in general are being portrayed by this.
Its being portrayed like all we want to do is remove the cross, when the AA not only is offering a way around that but are offering to PAY for it.
But we are the bad guys here? Really?
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,272 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Mariana
(14,849 posts)There's no reason not to put this piece of sculpture into the museum. In fact, the workers who cut it out into that shape should be named and given credit as the artists.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)and I am no fan of atheists in general, trust me. But if they are going to put up a Christian symbol, the other religions should be represented as well, with their own symbols. It's not like only Christians died in the twin towers, I'm pretty sure there were atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, and others.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)When a Jew or a Muslim sees it, they know what they are looking at. As do Christians.
Believe it or not, for some a cross is a symbol of hate and oppression.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)... it gave comfort to people in this city.
The cross is a sign of redemption for me and other Christians.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)That's why there are houses of worship for you.
The metal itself is debris and it is a clear cross that makes some people feel uncomfortable -the same people who also were victims of 9/11.
IOW, go to church to be comforted by a cross. It has no place as an exclusionary symbol in a place where people of all races and religions were killed.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)The cross excludes no one. It is Christians that do that.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)The cross was fashioned and is given ritual attention because it is a cross. Not because it is mere debris.
If it were the debris, you would be paying ritual attention to a melted phone.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)remained standing.
Eko
(7,170 posts)if we cut into a new shape, like maybe a square?.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)phil89
(1,043 posts)No one should be expected to respect irrational, bizarre beliefs about random symbols supposedly from a "god" no one can see or demonstrate exists. It's just fueling a backward mindset.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Gore1FL
(21,030 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Gore1FL
(21,030 posts)largely due to it's resemblance to an ancient form of capitol punishment.
I am sure, given the opportunity, I could have found scrap metal at the site that looks more or less like the flying spaghetti monster, too. Would that be an appropriate part of the memorial?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I like spaghetti.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)except it's a SIGN.
Which is it?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)However you did say it is debris and not a religious item. But then you said it was a sign/symbol (the cross), which makes it a religious item.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Due to the fact that it became a part of the story I think it should go in the museum.
pipi_k
(21,020 posts)of an Atheist...
IMO, it's a piece of debris because that's the way it was found. What I mean is, nobody actually fashioned it into a cross after pulling it from the wreckage, am I correct?
So if, by chance, a Star of David or a crescent moon were found in the debris, not formed by human hand into either of those shapes, it would be the same.
Hence, debris found in wreckage, but debris that resembles a religious symbol.
If Star of David or crescent moon shapes had been discovered in the wreckage, I would hope that they would also be given a place of honor.
PS...that cross being there doesn't bother me. In fact, it sort of pisses me off that the Atheist group is giving this so much negative attention because it only gives (some) Christians even more reason to claim they're being "persecuted".
PPS...OK, reading some more, it appears that it kinda sorta was fashioned by human hands. But not intentionally glued or stuck together to make a cross shape...
Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)Then it became religious symbology. Yes, it is disingenuous to call it debris.
Imagine the outrage if someone had carved a crescent and star into one of the beams and wanted it put on display at the memorial. The reaction would be completely different, which simply underscores the Christian privilege aspect.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)Which is part of why it gave so many people for whom it is a symbol comfort. A crescent and star found on a beam in the rubble might have given a different population comfort - and if that had been the case it should also should have a place in the museum.
The cross, and any other similar symbol rising from the debris which comforted many during that tragic time, should be part of the historical record of the event.
Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)While I suppose any given intersection of two pieces of structural steel could be "found" to be a cross, when one purposely cuts the rest of it out it's hard to imagine how it wasn't purposely altered.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)or this thread. The cross was found sticking out of the rubble.
Yes, it was cut at the base in conjunction with removing it from the rubble. That is not the same thing as finding a piece or pieces of debris and creating a cross from it, which is what is being implied.
It was the form of the debris as it was found which it was found which was inspirational to those for whom it has meaning, not the fact that it was cut at the base in order to remove it. If there are similar inspirational pieces of debris (religious or not) from which large numbers of people took comfort, I would support including those as well.
Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)That doesn't mean it should be significant and certainly doesn't mean my tax dollars should support a 'born again' iron worker who decided to make a big deal about it.
Here's two more "crosses" which could have just as easily been fabricated like the one which was "found". It was simply a matter of how the structural steel was prefabricated prior to construction.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)Unless you live in New York, your tax dollars aren't being spent on it. The project is funded primarily by donations, with a small (15% of the total) grant from New York State.
The picture of "Jesus on a dog's ass" is not something which provided comfort to a substantial number of people in the wake of 9/11 (nor is it, in any way, associated with the event).
As to your picture, neither of those are protruding through the rubble having the appearance of a cross - those look like building remnants. They would actually have to be cut to form a cross, unlike the cross in dispute. Nor were either the two beam intersections in your picture the one which actually was found and actually did bring comfort to a substantial number of people. The comfort that symbol provided (regardless of whether you think it should provide comfort) was real and is a part of the 9/11 story. There is a difference between deliberately creating something which might theoretically be comforting to one who holds certain beliefs and including it in the museum, and recognizing the role an object actually did provide - which is why it belongs in the museum.
I would have no objection (nor should anyone else) to including a similar item associated with 9/11 which gained a similar status. (Such as - if they exist - other religious or secular symbols which were
For example - I happen to find the image below mildly offensive because of the way in which our flag is often used as part of the war machine/extreme patriotism/exclusion of those who are not citizens. In the same way the cross is often used against non-Christians.
That image certainly did not bring me comfort - but I acknowledge that it brought many comfort and it would be petty of me to demand that it be omitted because I, personally, find it an image of intolerance.
Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)1/3rd of the annual operating budget will come from federal funds:
There is authorized to be appropriated to carry out this Act not more than $20,000,000 for fiscal year 2013 and each fiscal year thereafter, subject to the requirement that any funds appropriated to carry out this Act shall be matched with funds from non-Federal sources.
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:S.+1537:
1/3rd of the costs of building the project are being paid by the LMDC which is financed exclusively by federal funds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Manhattan_Development_Corporation
So yes, my tax dollars are being spent on both building the museum and operating it.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)It is not even out of committee, so no, your federal tax dollars are not paying 1/3 of the cost of the operating budget. That was a proposed bill, which has gone nowhere.
As to the LDMC, I don't have time at the moment to research it - but the information I previously found split the bill between a privately funded charitable organization (85%) and the state of New York (15%). I'll check later.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)I found a more detailed funding description, and a portion of the building costs do come from federal funds.
From a legal perspective, it is a legal use of the money. The Lemon tests for the use of public money for a purpose which may have an incidental religious impact is:
The government's action must have a secular purpose;
The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.
Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)But as I mentioned downthread I'm not saying the legal case is rock solid. A conservative judge(s) could certainly rule against it and it wouldn't surprise me, but then again there are many conservative judges that just do whatever they want regardless of the Constitution and some of which simply disregard the Lemon test.
There's nothing secular about a cross. It's Christian symbology designed to promote and advance Christianity. That's two out of the three and only one is a fail. The third is arguable.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)It is part of the story of 9/11. The secular purpose is to tell the story of 9/11 (which includes strong visual images of the cross sticking out of the rubble, the image of raising the flag, the jumpers' bodies, the plane hitting the tower), and the effect on the viewer is to bring to mind that image, among others. It is a pretty mainstream constitutional analysis - and I have a hard time imagining any of the judges I know (conservative or liberal) ruling in favor of the atheists.
It would be a different question if they had (as the story is currently being twisted) just hauled out a bunch of criss-crossed I beams and chopped a cross out of it for the sake of creating a cross. But that isn't what happened.
Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)The photo you posted isn't even the same crossed beams which only proves that one and the one that's being presented as "special" really aren't.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)http://www.guideposts.org/faith-and-hope/faith-renewed-cross-ground-zero
The image I posted was the one associated with the first version of the story I ran across which I could verify came from Frank Silecchia- the person who found it. This story above (the second with reliable attribution) indicates he found a collection crosses in an isolated portion of the rubble. Only one of them was saved (the note above), removed, and fixed to a concrete base. The image may be the same cross from a different perspective - or a different one in the same area of the rubble.
And the issue isn't that it is "special,"or a miracle. It is that that particular cross was found (not created as the story is being twisted) in the rubble, and gave a substantial number of people hope and comfort. That makes it an important part of the story of 9/11.
Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)...and for no other reason. It was in no way extraordinary and there's nothing secular about it. And yes, lots of people did try to make it into a miracle, including lumping lots of bullshit into the story.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)a Star of David might have given you hope and comfort. If you are a sucker for rescue dogs, the sight of the rescue dogs in their little booties might have given you hope and comfort. If the flag floats your boat, the image that was reminiscent of Iwo Jima might have been your thing.
We are not all wired the same way - and all of these (aside from the Star of David, which I am not aware anyone actually found) ought to be included as part of the memorial because they are part of the universal experience of seeking comfort in time of great tragedy.
phil89
(1,043 posts)"Construction worker Frank Silecchia pulled the beam from the ruins of the towers shortly after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, and had the 17-foot-tall, 4,000-pound cross cut from it." Some miracle.
Ms. Toad
(33,915 posts)If you were paying attention to the news reports about what was going on at ground zero you would know that - or could easily research it. I've also posted pictures of it (or one of the small collection of which it was a part) for the research impaired.
The portion of the beam which was visible when it was found was a cross. (There were actually a few of them in a protected area of rubble - the rest were taken to the landfill. Cutting the cross off at the base so it can be set in concrete and placed in a location where it continued to provide comfort to some of the workers as they continued clean up is not the same as altering the beams to create a cross (as is being implied).
I certainly have never said it was a miracle. What I have said is it is a important part of the 9/11 story - one of the things which gave hope and comfort to some individuals in the aftermath of the tragedy. As part of the story of how people emotionally survived the aftermath, it is appropriate to include it in the museum.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)Which is another example of Christian privilege affecting poll results.
Just sayin'
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)I'm not saying this particular case will prevail from a constitutional standpoint, but just that one should not put that much stock in civil rights issues that are put to a vote. Civil rights issues are almost always about the oppression of a minority by the majority. As such the majority has a distinct advantage when such things are put to a vote.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)Promoting one religious idea without offering equal opportunity to all others is oppression. That's why the government should not be in the business or promoting any of it.
How do you think the poll would have gone if the steel would have been made into a star and crescent?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Look I am sympathetic in these cases but in this case I think it belongs in a museum.
Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)Most of the funds are private, but a huge chunk comes in the form of federal grants and NY state support.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)The issue is you have a museum being funded by public funds being used by people who want to promote Christianity. If they want to buy private land and fill it full of crosses I have no issues with it.
It really shouldn't even be a constitutional matter at all. If Christians can erect a monument to Christian victims, then Muslims, Buddists, Atheists, and every other assorted interest can too and suddenly the memorial is now more about promoting various viewpoints and less about remembering what happened.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)the artifact in question had somehow miraculously appeared as a full blown proportionally correct Roman Cross, sticking out of the rubble by itself. But that's not what it is. This is 2 beams from WTC which are attached at right angles (how many thousands of those are there in a construction the size of the WTC?) which was fashioned - cut down- to have the shape of a Christian cross. What about that makes it worthy of being in a museum???
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)artifact into the shape of a cross and then they and other Xian folk venerated it?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)display this clearly religious artifact on public property. Let them give it to a church of their choice to display it wherever. But displaying a symbol of one religion (and, just to forestall the inevitable, the Supreme Court has already held that the Roman Cross is a religious symbol) in a clear, inexcusable violation of the First Amendment's separation of church and state.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)The placement of this artifact is wrong.
Normally I would not care about what people want to erect where, on their own property. But I did object to the ten commandments sculpture on public sites. I'm not an atheist but I think you have to be very careful with cultural icons that imply consensus. What they have done with this offends me. Consider the recent attempts to turn this country into The Republic of Gilead.
It would be better to use a piece of the wreckage in a more abstract shape, as iconic sculpture.
That would speak just as well to people of all religions or none.
This was an opportunity for inclusivity and solidarity --whatever you want to call it when you honor all people equally.
An opportunity missed.
stopbush
(24,376 posts)entirely due to religious belief.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)It certainly was brought down due to religious fanatics.
stopbush
(24,376 posts)be displayed as an artifact at the museum while not allowing non-religious symbols of equal size be displayed as well.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)stopbush
(24,376 posts)You could still be a religious fanatic and have a non-religious reason for including it in the museum.
BTW - when I use the word "fanatic," it comes down to a case of single-mindedness, as in the dictionary definition of fanatic: "a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, esp. for an extreme religious or political cause."
Most Xians in this country are lukewarm/milquetoast in their beliefs. As in Biblical times, most Xians today would renounce their beliefs were a gun put to their heads. They're not going to die for their beliefs, as did the fanatics who flew the planes into the WTC.
That said, it takes a certain level of conceit or sense of personal privilege (ie: entitlement) to believe in the fantasies of the Bible and to treat them as if they are historical in any modern sense of the word. Things like the Resurrection and the miracles of Jesus are childish fables that don't pass the smell test in a rational view of the world.
There's a hint of fanaticism in even the most-moderate of religious beliefs, as religious beliefs by definition are excessive.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)JoeyT
(6,785 posts)and the way it's actually meant to be taken, if the refusal to allow anyone else to put up any kind of representations of other religions is any indication, is that only the Christian victims mattered. Everyone else was just roadkill.
What else can someone possibly take from it? We're going to memorialize the victims of a tragedy, but with a symbol specific to one religion, and every other religion can get bent. How else can you read that?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Can you see that for many, now at this point of memorial-making, it seems more a symbol of "Christians will prevail." (?)
I think the pools speak to us all. But the cross installation was not well thought out. It should be a part of the memorial but not selected as a shrine totem.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Hmmm...
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Does the contradiction have to be spelled out more clearly?
Response to Bonobo (Reply #43)
hrmjustin This message was self-deleted by its author.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)That just ~happens~ to be in the shape of a remarkably cruel instrument of agonizing and prolonged death?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)At about that same time, various groups began lobbying the WTCMF to include the girder cross in the final design of the 9/11 Memorial & Museum. American Atheists spoke out against that suggestion, making numerous appearances to civic and governmental groups as well as on national media denouncing the suggestion as a blatant violation of the First Amendment and exclusionary to non-Christian Americans. It also offered to provide its own memorial artifact to be set next to the girder cross to honor all other Americans who died in the 9/11 attacks. American Atheists never received any response to its complaints or its offer of an additional memorial artifact.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)ie: Invisible and noiseless.
It turns out that the OP is actually a lie by omission, the fact that an additional memorial was offered was not mentioned in the OP.
All this outrage over a lie.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I personally have seen and touched on many times. Sorry but it belongs in the museum.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Very astute, Fumey.
rug
(82,333 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Amendment to have memorial services there than at Arlington.
rug
(82,333 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)religious ceremonies of one type or another at WTC since 9/11. But what we're talking about here is displaying the symbol of ONE religious group to the exclusion of all others on PUBIC property - clearly an unconstitutional act violating separation of church and state.
rug
(82,333 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)it doesn't work. Sorry. There is clear precedent from the USSCt that the Roman cross is the unequivocal item which symbolizes to the viewer the Christian faith. The government is not allowed to promote one religion to the exclusion of others. The solution is therefore a) have symbols of other religions displayed next to the cross (which is, of course what it is), b) remove the cross displayed on public property or c) display the cross on private property. Nothing hard about that.
rug
(82,333 posts)That was also a line of questions from the Second Circuit panel Thursday.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)anything. See what the holding of the court is.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)If you need an artifact of a human reaction a good b/w photo of people praying around it after 9/11 would do the job a lot better.
Silent3
(15,018 posts)It started as debris, but then it was deliberately fashioned into a religious item.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)of the musuem.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)1awake
(1,494 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)I suppose if one of the arms had been longer than the other, it would be okay to cut it off to the "proper" size.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Bonobo
(29,257 posts)If someone were to suggest a Star of David be put up (excuse me, accidentally cut out) to commemorate the 9/11 victims...
Would ANYONE think that was reasonable?
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)As I am for the plaque that says non-believers died here that the AA group wants.
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)rug
(82,333 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)They wanted symbols for some of the other people who died at the hands of the nazi. The only one that was included was the star of David.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/26/atheist-activist-on-ohio-holocaust-memorial-its-important-that-we-not-give-the-holocaust-to-just-the-jews/
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/07/26/dave-silverman-appears-on-fox-news-to-debate-jewish-star-on-ohios-holocaust-memorial/
I think it was a foolish choice of battles, but the principle they were promoting was correct.
rug
(82,333 posts)There were no yellow atom badges.
LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)Rather some of the other groups like the homosexuals, gypsies, disabled, etc that were also systematically killed. Without that, it can be seen as a religious display.
Again, it was a bad choice of battles as it is all too easy to make it look like they are insensitive in that case. Sadly, this whole WTC thing has the same problem. That is why I originally felt this was a bad choice of battles in the religion forum, then I learned that what they really wanted was to put up a plaque to the nonbelievers who died, one they are willing to pay for...
I feel that is worth fighting this PR nightmare for.
Silent3
(15,018 posts)"true, but it is debris", as if the the form the debris has been converted into hasn't the slightest thing to do with the issue?
The debris isn't sacred, you know. Most of the debris was thrown away or recycled.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)Who would it hurt?
Maybe your worried about the money it would cost? Its not like a plaque requires a lot of money...ESPECIALLY SINCE THE AA IS OFFERING TO PAY FOR IT!!!
One group, who was hurt by the attack the same as everyone else, wants the cross ON PUBLIC LAND taken down OR TO LET THEM PUT UP THEIR OWN MEMORIAL WITH THEIR OWN MONEY; and the other is arguing for their symbol to remain up at the exclusion of everyone elses.
OBVIOUSLY AA are the bad guys here.
So much for inclusiveness and tolerance being liberal values.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)At about that same time, various groups began lobbying the WTCMF to include the girder cross in the final design of the 9/11 Memorial & Museum. American Atheists spoke out against that suggestion, making numerous appearances to civic and governmental groups as well as on national media denouncing the suggestion as a blatant violation of the First Amendment and exclusionary to non-Christian Americans. It also offered to provide its own memorial artifact to be set next to the girder cross to honor all other Americans who died in the 9/11 attacks. American Atheists never received any response to its complaints or its offer of an additional memorial artifact.
LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)Just because we want our dead to be acknowledged too.
The way the AA and us atheists are getting presented here is beyond disgusting. When I first heard about this, I was mad at AA for picking a battle that makes us look like jerks. But then I learned that the AA made that offer, I have just become more and more incensed.
The way we are getting presented is PURE BULLSHIT!
skepticscott
(13,029 posts)Really, it puts things in the same light they've been all along, but which shallow people with persecution paranoia who would rather call someone a "jackass atheist zealot" for doing this, can't be bothered to find out.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)The rest of us are in their damn way and they will steamroll over us to shove the religion down our throats at every turn. It's that way because they are the poor, oppressed, majority and we are the bad guys for not bowing down to them. It's not about their God. They want us to bow down to THEM. That's what it really is all about, nothing more, nothing less.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)died? And if so, Why?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)Why would we honor people who are obviously evil since they are going to Hell?
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)liberal_at_heart
(12,081 posts)other than their own experience. Keep the cross and put up the atheist plaque. It's simple. Why the hell do people try to make things so damn difficult?
Bonobo
(29,257 posts)Would ANYONE think that was reasonable?
Hell, not even Jews would think it was reasonable?
I guess being the militarily dominant religion for the last 500 years tends to give you a swelled head.
What is funny is that some of the people advocating for it seem to understand the concept of white male privilege. Is this so different?
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)White males are the patriarchy and evil.
Christians are good and holy.
What is wrong with you that you cannot see this undeniable fact?
LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I think they should put up a Pentacle, that should really steam the Christians.
And a big question mark for the agnostics..
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)tritsofme
(17,322 posts)A few hundred bucks at most? Any other reason than just to be a jerk?
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)At least damn paint it or something. It's absolutely ugly and just keeps the horror of that day in people's minds. You want a Patriot Act Part 50 in about 50 years? Keep your rusty old jagged ugly ass cross from that day and keep shoving it down everyone else's throats. No one else but Christians were killed on that day, right? The rest of us don't matter, right? We get the message loud and clear. You don't even need to answer.
tritsofme
(17,322 posts)How a single exhibit that is important to some people can be viewed with such venom is beyond me.
The persecution complex here is as ridiculous as the fundies who drone on about a "War on Christmas."
The exhibit is not exclusionary, it does not appear to be the focal point of the institution, but it is a piece of what happened that day, and the desire to erase it from history is just downright bizarre.
LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)honoring the non-believers who died and instead try to make it look like the AA wants to erase history is even more bizarre.
tritsofme
(17,322 posts)If what you say is the case, I agree, there is no good reason for them to be denied a plaque.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)To me it's the equivalent of erecting a gun shaped monument at the site of a school shooting, then claiming it's okay because the school shooter used a Colt and monument looks like a Smith and Wesson.
liberalmuse
(18,670 posts)get into an argument with people who have a persecution complex. You're just playing right into their delusions and they'll cling to that debris "cross" even harder. Logic is not a useful tool against delusion. Compromise is meaningless to people who believe it's all about "ME".
MellowDem
(5,018 posts)The "cross" doesn't represent many who died there and was only made into a symbol by Christians. It's not a "clear-cut" part of the story, it's a "clear-cut" part of the usual irrational logic that finds religious symbolism in anything and everything, as long as it backs one's own religion of course.
Given irrational religious beliefs were a large part of what caused 9/11, this religious symbol is just a slap in the face to all non-Christians by reminding people, with a nice torture device no less, the privilege religion, especially Christianity, has in our society.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Ikonoklast
(23,973 posts)The biggest symbol used by those to justify their greed, hate, and intolerance.
Absolutely fitting.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(26,272 posts).... and everyone else should pay heed less the religiously delusional will throw a grand mal hissy fit. But the atheists are unreasonable.
Just another examples of liars for Jesus and fuck yous for Jesus. We even see the intellectually dishonest double talk BS in this very thread.
Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)The worker found an intersection of two beams and deliberately cut it into a cross. It would be more like someone fashioning a Jesus stencil and mass producing Jesus toast.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)edhopper
(33,205 posts)The beam was pulled from the wreakage and CUT INTO A CROSS! It was manufactured, not some miracle find. It was a symbol to many, including GWB, that this was a Muslim attack on a Christian Country.
It is the wrong message for this tragedy.
Keep it the fuck out.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)To Hell with the rest of us.
amuse bouche
(3,657 posts)"It was manufactured"--Just like religion. All made up BS.
How pathetic that so many fight for this garbage. Stupid doesn't begin to describe
BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)pangaia
(24,324 posts)it wouldn't even be there.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)was deliberately formed, cut from debris into the shape of a Christian cross, the only reason for which it is being displayed. It may well have given comfort to some Christians but as a Christian symbol on public property it violates the First Amendment separation of church and state.
amuse bouche
(3,657 posts)John1956PA
(2,654 posts)For the sake of accuracy, a placard should be installed next to the item to express that fact.
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)Niceguy1
(2,467 posts)Plenty of intolerance on all sides to go around....
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)The religious nutcases don't need their symbolism in all areas of the country, especially at a public memorial.
MNBrewer
(8,462 posts)She does this ALL THE TIME!!
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)which was also religiously motivated?
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)They think we are stupid and cannot see that. That "cross" was deliberately cut from the wreckage. It wasn't formed magically. They cut it into the shape of a cross and want to put it up just to shove their religion down our throats even more. That religion, to me, will always signify rape, physically, mentally, emotionally, AND spiritually.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)If it's privater property, then it doesn't matter.
But if it's public property, it needs to be removed.
Christians love shoving their religion down everyone's throat.
Chan790
(20,176 posts)It's construction debris. It should have been disposed of with the rest of the debris.
Send it to the smelter.
NYC Liberal
(20,132 posts)Had it been pulled out of the wreckage like that, well that'd be one thing. But it wasn't.
DinahMoeHum
(21,737 posts)If they want to keep it in the museum, I have no problem, as long as they have all other religious symbols displayed as well. Otherwise, no dice.
Orrex
(63,085 posts)Mysterious ways.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)Then again, I live in the Bible Belt where you can't walk two paces without bumping into another church and Christianity, the only religion allowed in my home county, the most hateful kind of Christianity, is in your face day in and day out. I would love to move to a town that was less zealous and pompous. I do wish these zillions of churches around here would quit coming up with anti-gay comments for their signs and pick up some of the damn trash that is making the county look horrible, or, I don't know, bother to feed some poor people or build a shelter that allows homeless women in it? The current homeless shelter here does not allow women or children, only men. Christianity truly sucks.
I wish the atheists could start winning more of these legal fights. It is getting overly ridiculous at this point. Can't even order a goddamn guitar capo on Ebay without getting Christian crap in the package with it, disguised as guitar tips. I shit you not.
I'm so glad I'm going to Hell when I die. Eternity away from these assholes to make up for a lifetime stuck with them. I long for Hell, because it will be full of nothing but gay people. Everything else is fine and dandy now, just don't be gay. Hell is going to be the good place to go for eternity. Heaven? Not so much. I don't see how any place full of the assholes that live around me can be called even remotely close to something called Heaven.
GreenEyedLefty
(2,073 posts)As Mark Twain said (paraphrasing), "Go to heaven for the climate, hell for the company."
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)Atheists react with such a religious fervor, it's hard to tell them apart from the extreme evangelical religious side.
Both have their own dogma crosses to wave around.
LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)Also:
http://xkcd.com/774/
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)Well I did mean it as Faith + Atheist. As in the Atheist have too much Faith that their way is THE way.
I may not be superior, but both groups and their dogma annoy me about the same.
LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)phil89
(1,043 posts)it is the rejection of a claim of a god or gods. Faith is not required to be an atheist.
DirkGently
(12,151 posts)Have to assume this and the "White ladies shouldn't belly dance" piece were in part calculated to draw attention more than to illuminate any worthwhile ideas.
Lot of disingenuous nonsense going on here. It's well established that Christian groups like to argue that crosses and Jesus-i appear magically at scenes of horror or natural disaster. Hand of God in the volcano cloud. Mother Mary in the desiccated corpses of love bugs. Okay to embrace your personal mythology of course, but at least be clear most people view it as nonsense. God is not sending images of ancient Roman torture devices into blown-up buildings to send us signs of hope.
A hacked-up chunk of a building artificially configured to look exactly like a religious symbol is okay as art, but it's bad art. Anything can be cut into a "cross." So it's not just lamely easy, but also reprehensibly suggestive that 9/11 is rightly viewed as some kind of Christian vs. Muslims event, which is the precise kind of insane thinking that made people think they were justified in doing such a thing in the first place.
John1956PA
(2,654 posts)Your post is outstanding.
dballance
(5,756 posts)The cross was put up, at the time, by people who were grieving the disaster. To me, it's just part of history now. I really don't see it as the state trying to promote one religion over another.
That said, had George W. Bush helped them erect the cross and said a prayer over it I probably would have a different opinion.
LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)putting up a plaque next to it honoring the atheists who died there that day too?
One that the AA themselves has offered to pay for?
dballance
(5,756 posts)I don't, for a moment, believe the people erecting the cross had any such intentions of just honoring Christians. I choose to believe the person that put it up had the purest of motives to honor all dead, not just Christian dead. It's too bad a Star of David and Crescent Star were not erected alongside the Cross.
From my purely anecdotal personal observations it seems to me that the Jewish people and Muslim people are a bit more private and less likely to erect their symbology outside holy places, Temples, Mosques and Synagogues. Now, that is purely, purely my personal observation. I am not stating it as fact and anyone is welcome to disagree with me.
LostOne4Ever
(9,267 posts)But the part of the story the article is glossing over is that the AA would have happily moved on if they would have been able to add their plaque.
I thought this fight was not worth it either, but upon learning that the fight was actually over the AA getting to put up their own memorial with their own money I changed my mind. That combined with the way this story is being framed as "Evil mean atheists want to remove religious symbol of hope" rather than "Atheists want to erect a memorial to honor their dead from 9/11" infuriates me.
Im not disagreeing with you. I just want to point out the fact that the AA simply wants to put up their own plaque as I feel that is an important part of the story that is being omitted.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)it was held on the evening of a Jewish high holy day so no pesky Jews. Everyone else had to suffer through several "Christians are so great. Why does everyone hate us?" rants and then lots of christian blessings. I walked out disgusted. It just confirmed my guess as to part of the reason the towers were blown up in the first place.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)So your claim that there were several "Christians are so great" "rants" at a 9/11 memorial event makes me a little bit skeptical, to say the least.
Walk away
(9,494 posts)I sold my house and moved to another town. You can suspect anything you like but you are wrong.
To hold an event with not stop Jesus worship instead of an inclusive memorial for 9/11 in a town park for the general public and on my tax dollar, is disgusting. And that is in Blue NJ. I SUSPECT that it happened in many other places.
It funny to me that you saved your skepticism for an event described by an eye witness.
Ohio Joe
(21,656 posts)There is a specific fantasy that has to be promoted!
stopbush
(24,376 posts)Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)I can see that something like forced prayer in public schools is worth fighting against, because impressionable children should not be indoctrinated into one particular religion. But in this case, are they worried that people are going to see this cross-shaped item in the memorial museum and think "wow! Christianity is so great, let me sign up for that ASAP"?
stopbush
(24,376 posts)In the meanwhile, you're playing "blame the victim."
Why you can't see that is anyone's guess.
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)has often been held to be unconstitutional.
Major Nikon
(36,814 posts)Do you think they shouldn't do so simply because there's no direct impact to you?
The idea of separation of church and state means no tax dollars should be used to promote any religion. Those who believe in that principle strongly enough are willing to take a stand at every instance regardless of the impact. Simply saying 'it's not a big deal so fuck it', is a never ending proposition because those who seek to promote religion will always be pushing those boundaries.
Your same argument makes more sense to apply to the religionists who are promoting this. If it's no big deal why are they pushing so hard for it in the first place? I'm sure there are a number of private religious organizations who would be glad to display it on their own property.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)That was the part left out of your OP, the group offered to pay for a plaque that would represent the non-Christians killed on 9/11 to be placed by or near the cross but never could even get a reply to their concerns.
The Christian cross does not represent all Americans.
phil89
(1,043 posts)Time to move beyond the nonsense.
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)In one of those minds, I don't care what religions people believe in, and if this thing gives them some comfort, then it's not a problem for me.
In the other mind, I'm troubled that only the Christian symbol is in evidence, despite the diversity of belief and disbelief held by those who died in those buildings. Some were Christians, no doubt, even a majority, perhaps. But not all were, by any means. All major religions were represented by people who died. Non-religious people, too, died. Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and more all were among those who died.
The reality of this monument is that it is more for those who didn't die than for those who did. The United States has a majority of people who believe in one form of Christianity or another. That majority has decided that only Christianity should be represented in this memorial sculpture. Of course there are cross forms in the framework of those buildings. Hundreds of them. This one was cut from the debris, with the parts that did not look like a Christian cross removed, leaving only the symbol.
It is the insularity of this cross that disturbs me. It is there. It is the only religious representation that is there. Yet, people of many religions and of no religion at all died on 9/11. That means that the cross isn't a representation of the religious beliefs of those who died. Instead, it is a representation of only the majority religion of the United States. That's wrong.
It was the World Trade Center, not the Christian USA Center. No single religious symbol can represent those who died. In fact, if only a single symbol appears, it dishonors those who are not Christian and, in doing so, dishonors the sentiment it is supposed to express.
For that reason, I oppose having only a single religious symbol on display. It's unfair to those who do not see a cross as a symbol of peace. It is unfair to those who see all religion as a symbol of prejudice and inequality. I believe that they should either represent all religions in a memorial or none at all.
Where is the six-pointed star, or the star and crescent? Where are the symbols of Hinduism or Buddhism? Where is a symbol of disbelief? If they are not there, the symbol of Christianity should not be there, either.
The Christian deity did not protect those in the building, nor did any other deity. Why is a religious symbol appropriate as a memorial symbol in any way?
TNLib
(1,819 posts)nt
MineralMan
(146,192 posts)2banon
(7,321 posts)amuse bouche
(3,657 posts)Religious BS must be fought at every step
Don't forget..Religious terrorists are the ones responsible for 9/11
The denomination matters not. They all preach hatred and discrimination of 'others'
RedCappedBandit
(5,514 posts)Beartracks
(12,761 posts)... who were there to assist with efforts for ALL victims.... then so be it.
I think a lot will depend on how the cross is being "interpreted" at the museum. That is, does it "honor" the Christian dead, or does it "honor" the Christians who helped in the aftermath and took this token beam and fashioned it into a symbol of their faith while they worked? The thing is pretty big and was visually prominent at the site, so pretending it never existed isn't a realistic way to document and remember the event.
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goldent
(1,582 posts)There are a lot of artifacts in the museum, both historically significant objects and mundane but poignant items of everyday life. These artifacts tell the story of 9/11, its aftermath, and the effect it had on us. The cross is just a tiny part of the story about peoples reactions in the days that followed.
starroute
(12,977 posts)If it was, say, 18 inches tall and could be put in a display case along with other artifacts, that might be proportionate. But this thing is huge and intimidating, and that's part of the problem.
Fumesucker
(45,851 posts)I suppose it's possible but it seems rather unlikely.
Beartracks
(12,761 posts)COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)of metal fashioned into 2 beams joined at a 90 degree angle. What it represents is the unique symbol of the Christian faith. There is no possible confusion on that matter. So the only question is whether it's constitutionally permissible to erect a symbol of Christian faith on public property. I suggest the answer is No.
Beartracks
(12,761 posts).. but just documenting the history of the event and its aftermath.
I would take issue if the cross was the centerpiece of all the displays, making the place look like a Christian museum -- like putting it outside the front door or in a special place of honor within the layout of the museum property. If it was JUST metal beams it could take center stage, but BECAUSE it's been made into a religious symbol it needs to be treated.... secularly -- a secular acknowledgment of its role in the ways that some rescuers dealt with the aftermath. Its importance even in that respect is only because it was so prominent at the site that everyone could see it.
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COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)would not be a contravention of the separation of church and state. Here the problem is that it is not displayed in a museum but rather in a place designed to attract the most attention from people before they ever enter the museum. Much like placing the 10 Commandments on the Courthouse lawn. Nothing secular about that.
Beartracks
(12,761 posts)Up until now, I thought the lawsuit was to PREVENT its installation -- I didn't realize it was already installed.
I'm finding lots of pictures of where it was sitting prior to being lowered into the underground museum, but what's the context IN the museum? You indicate it's outside the entrance, but it's underground from what I've read. Is it still some kind of centerpiece down there?
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Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)
goldent This message was self-deleted by its author.
hack89
(39,171 posts)marions ghost
(19,841 posts)Interesting the divergence on this question of symbols.
hack89
(39,171 posts)this is not a big issue.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)attempting to turn America into the Republic of Gilead, I'd agree with you.
hack89
(39,171 posts)if it did I would also oppose it. This is a relatively benign issue involving an object imbedded into the nation's consciousness due to 911.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)--the selection of this widely labeled "miracle cross" as the lasting symbol of the tragedy makes it into a cultural icon. (I have no problem with the cross as concept, as inspiration for people who benefit from it). What they have done here is create a permanent religious shrine in a public space that should have expressed unity of all people, not religious preference. To see it in any other way is IMO, not understanding the true meaning of division of church and state.
With this installation we are getting into fundamentalist territory. There is nothing particularly miraculous about steel girders forming crosses. Unless you believe that Our Lady of the Underpass is a sacred site. And that 10 Commandments sculptures should appear in front of municipal government offices.
hack89
(39,171 posts)Tom Ripley
(4,945 posts)marions ghost
(19,841 posts)cvoogt
(949 posts)why this particular cross means so much to so many. It was a small positive story in the middle of a catastrophe
But ... it's a random piece of wreckage, and ridiculous to see it as anything more (I think). That said, I see no issue with it being on government property, especially because so many apparently find comfort in it. Doesn't bother me in the least. I'm glad it's there, but it means nothing to me.
2banon
(7,321 posts)you know, for religious discussions?
Somebody just put a copy of the 'Piss Christ" crucifix alongside it to settle all the angst some people have over a monuments shape already.
mike_c
(36,214 posts)Hang it in someone's home, if they feel strongly enough about it. Or in a church. But not in a public space.
2banon
(7,321 posts)Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)amuse bouche
(3,657 posts)I used to tolerate all the bull. No more
DavidDvorkin
(19,405 posts)Corey_Baker08
(2,157 posts)edhopper
(33,205 posts)are the same people who were screaming about a Muslim Center anywhere near the WTC.
But it's not about co-opting this into a Christian thing, is it?