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Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 12:22 AM Mar 2014

Atheists’ misguided fight over the 9/11 memorial




In the battle between organizations whose main principles I often agree with and whose tantrums and publicity whore tactics regularly make me want to punch a wall, it’s usually a toss-up between PETA and American Atheists. But this week, you win, American Atheists.

The organization went to court this week to argue that a cross-shaped steel beam salvaged from the wreckage of the twin towers should not be part of the national 9/11 museum and memorial, which is scheduled to officially open in May. “It’s necessary to fight this because this is inequality on government property,” says American Atheists president David Silverman. To quote Gru from “Despicable Me,” “Whaaaaaaat?”

Construction worker Frank Silecchia pulled the beam from the ruins of the towers shortly after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, and had the 17-foot-tall, 4,000-pound cross cut from it. It became in the days immediately following the tragedy an impromptu memorial, and a gathering place for people to leave messages and prayers. Silecchia said at the time, “When I first saw it, it took my heart, and made me cry for about 20 minutes. It helped me heal the burden of my despair, and gave me closure on the whole catastrophe.” It was subsequently blessed by ground zero chaplain Father Brian Jordan.

.......

If you want to get offended over the placement of Christian imagery in a memorial to a historic event, you’re going to be pissed off at a whole lot of museums and even more of history itself. That cross is part of what happened. It’s part of the building that was destroyed and it’s part of the experience of the people who worked on the recovery efforts afterward and it’s part of the experience of the visitors who paid their respects after them. It just is. This isn’t a school system trying to sneak Bibles into the classrooms. This isn’t the Ten Commandments in a courthouse. You want to fight against that religious infiltration into public life? I am on your side. You want to keep church and state separate? Me too. But you want to pitch a fit over an item that’s a clear-cut part of the story because you don’t like what it symbolizes? You’re mad there’s no 9/11 equivalent to that 17-foot cross because apparently nobody had the foresight to pull a satisfying secular symbol out of the wreckage? Please, just grow up. Because in this fight, you haven’t got a prayer.

http://www.salon.com/2014/03/07/atheists_misguided_fight_over_the_911_memorial/

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Atheists’ misguided fight over the 9/11 memorial (Original Post) Nye Bevan Mar 2014 OP
The holy rollers should keep it in their pants. blkmusclmachine Mar 2014 #1
Agreed. I'm not religious but I know a lot of Americans are Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #2
Yes, it's quite a leap from "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #3
+1 nt SunsetDreams Mar 2014 #8
+2 davidpdx Mar 2014 #91
+3 Kilgore Mar 2014 #97
What is more historical about that piece of scrap metal than any other scrap from the site? n/t Gore1FL Mar 2014 #202
Historically significant item? phil89 Mar 2014 #276
Read the article. joeglow3 Mar 2014 #278
I remember the days after 9/11, the memorials, the worship services Fumesucker Mar 2014 #7
That certainly wasn't what I was focused on-making 9/11 all about me Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #11
Like I said, it took a couple of days before I really noticed that no one had mentioned me Fumesucker Mar 2014 #17
You know what they say. "there are no atheists in suicide vests" Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #20
Don't you just love the in your face version of Christianity and how they Jamastiene Mar 2014 #131
I'll never forget Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson on 9/13. Mariana Mar 2014 #141
Yup. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #147
+10 stopbush Mar 2014 #168
Nor were Pagans mentioned, as if we are something to be swept under the carpet. Hestia Mar 2014 #254
i feel you dawg. dionysus Mar 2014 #85
And there is plenty of religious symbolism in DC The Straight Story Mar 2014 #12
When Christianity turns into a myth, you will have a point. Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #34
You mean like talking donkeys, talking snakes, and talking bushes? Major Nikon Mar 2014 #101
Exactly. Worse, most Xians assume that the Bible is historically accurate. It isn't. stopbush Mar 2014 #169
Except 'Gone With The Wind' was an original story Major Nikon Mar 2014 #173
I believe the more accurate term would be "acculturation" rather than"plagiarized". LanternWaste Mar 2014 #307
I believe the more accurate term is plagiarized Major Nikon Mar 2014 #310
LOL! Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #227
Oh, many people don't think that Christianity is a myth. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #248
How is Gabriel any different from Zeus, Apollo, Hermes, et al? They too were considered divine and Hestia Mar 2014 #255
I didn't make up the deity rape story ... it's in that book that Xtians like to quote. Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #257
You haven't seen that "attitude" from me.... blueamy66 Mar 2014 #258
I am familiar with many cultures/countries/etc. and have friends of many beliefs Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #260
Exactly! n/t marew Mar 2014 #302
What do you mean, "turns into"? mr blur Mar 2014 #289
Moses on courts is about early law treestar Mar 2014 #209
"Jackass atheist zealot?" Hissyspit Mar 2014 #87
Clearly, the jackasses amuse bouche Mar 2014 #103
There's xtian symbolism. at a public memorial. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #114
It's the remains of a steel beam cross-bar. If others wish to make more of it, so what? hlthe2b Mar 2014 #127
That piece of Iron was cut to look like a cross. RC Mar 2014 #185
+1 Go Vols Mar 2014 #192
Who cares? hlthe2b Mar 2014 #204
Quite a lot of us care. RC Mar 2014 #220
If it is not a cross, as you seemingly agree then your point is rather moot. hlthe2b Mar 2014 #223
Then go throw your own symbol there. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #249
I don't have one, but if I did, it would be something more inclusive, to include everyone who died. RC Mar 2014 #252
I am Catholic. I don't feel persecuted, except at DU. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #253
Well, if it's just a chunk of steel, why not display it upside down from its Nay Mar 2014 #219
Only jackass Christian zealots are allowed to have a voice in this country. Got it. Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #228
"If Christ had lived in the modern age Christians would all be wearing little electric chairs" Fumesucker Mar 2014 #4
Or 9mm handgun. Jesus would have been gunned down by Judas Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #6
Nah, it would have gone more like this... Fumesucker Mar 2014 #10
I hadn't heard that one. GoneOffShore Mar 2014 #140
If they want to keep that cross there, fine. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #5
Well, it's not about THEM, it's about ME Scootaloo Mar 2014 #89
I saw that movie davidpdx Mar 2014 #92
Great post. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #134
I don't think it's misguided. Bonobo Mar 2014 #9
Then there are a lot of atheists just as intolerant and unfeeling as they Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #13
Feeling alienated when you see a religious icon that excludes you is not itself petty or intolerant. Bonobo Mar 2014 #15
True. I was not trying to minimize your feelings Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #22
Thanks! Bonobo Mar 2014 #26
Thank you for doing this. kwassa Mar 2014 #225
I, as a person raised in the Catholic Church, find the cross unsettling Maedhros Mar 2014 #83
And I, as a Jew (non-practicing) find it so as well. Bonobo Mar 2014 #84
I have a certain revulsion at the idea of making an icon from an instrument of torture.[n/t] Maedhros Mar 2014 #90
I never understood why others religious symbols and beliefs penultimate Mar 2014 #158
I find it alienating LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #164
What is the artifact honoring non-religious victims? n/t Beartracks Mar 2014 #207
a plaque (nt) LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #221
It's not just a memorial -- they're taking it as some kind of miracle starroute Mar 2014 #14
It gave comfort to a lotnof us here. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #18
Why? Hissyspit Mar 2014 #77
Those were dark days for me personally and it gave me a sense of hope that we would get hrmjustin Mar 2014 #78
A real miracle isn't it? RC Mar 2014 #194
For approximately the same reason that imaginary red and blue lines on a map give comfort to people LanternWaste Mar 2014 #308
And where was their asshole of a god on 9-11? What, "he" had something better to do than prevent Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #229
It's called free will. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #250
Yeah, that old saw. Arugula Latte Mar 2014 #256
If you feel that way, don't pray. blueamy66 Mar 2014 #288
Much as I use to think in regards to my parents LanternWaste Mar 2014 #309
+1000 Tom Ripley Mar 2014 #301
It is a part of the story and I say leave it in the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #16
Then let us put up a plaque LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #24
I am all for it. No opposition from me. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #25
I know LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #29
Too bad there weren't any churches around, eh? Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2014 #94
There are plenty but it belongs in the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #117
I think you're right. Mariana Mar 2014 #149
I think the atheists have a point quinnox Mar 2014 #19
It is debris not a religious item. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #21
Forgive me, but that is just plain disingenuous. Bonobo Mar 2014 #28
We can argue what others think of the cross all day long but the metal itself is debris and... hrmjustin Mar 2014 #31
Yes, I appreciate that it is a sign of redemption for you and other Christians. Bonobo Mar 2014 #39
The cross is a part of the 9 11 story and should be a part of the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #42
A distinction without a difference. Bonobo Mar 2014 #46
Yes it was given attention because it was a cross but also because it hrmjustin Mar 2014 #50
So you dont mind Eko Mar 2014 #67
Yes I do and at this point I doubt that would be allowed. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #70
Which means absolutely nothing. phil89 Mar 2014 #279
Your opinion and and we will have to disagree. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #281
It is no more part of the history than any other scrap hauled away from the site. n/t Gore1FL Mar 2014 #203
Well people who were down there disagree. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #211
They would disagree because they "found" religious meaning in it Gore1FL Mar 2014 #226
For Christians it is the sign of redemption. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #230
It's JUST debris Hissyspit Mar 2014 #79
I never said it was just debris. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #80
Correct, I misread what you wrote. Hissyspit Mar 2014 #81
As a technical matter it is just debris. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #82
From the POV pipi_k Mar 2014 #125
It was debris until it was purposely altered Major Nikon Mar 2014 #104
Except that it wasn't purposely altered. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #111
Did you read the OP? Major Nikon Mar 2014 #112
Yes. But I also have my own memories which do not match the twist in the article. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #162
Someone found an image of Jesus on a dog's ass also Major Nikon Mar 2014 #170
You are being disingenuous Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #199
You are being just flat wrong Major Nikon Mar 2014 #210
That bill has not passed. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #214
You are correct on the building fund. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #224
I'm not convinced it's a legal use of the money Major Nikon Mar 2014 #232
It is really not even a close legal call. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #233
It is exactly what happened Major Nikon Mar 2014 #236
Tell that to the guy who found it. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #239
It gave people "hope and comfort" because of its Christian symbology Major Nikon Mar 2014 #240
And if you were Jewish - Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #241
It certainly was altered. From the article: phil89 Mar 2014 #282
As I've said before, the article is twisting the facts. Ms. Toad Mar 2014 #287
Well from polls I seen people want it in the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #118
You can say the same thing about Proposition 8 Major Nikon Mar 2014 #124
Putting a cross in a museum is nit the same as prop 8 but I understand your point. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #126
Both are civil rights issues Major Nikon Mar 2014 #128
No one is being oppressed by these beams being put in a museum. Offended yes but not oppressed. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #129
It's state promotion of Christianity Major Nikon Mar 2014 #133
I imagine it would not get the same support. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #135
I'm sure it does, but not one tax dollars support Major Nikon Mar 2014 #137
I don't know about who is funding it. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #139
The funds come from public and private sources Major Nikon Mar 2014 #143
Well I think it won't cost much to deal with this thing. They can designate privste funds for it. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #144
That's not the issue Major Nikon Mar 2014 #150
Again I understand how you feel but in this case I think these beams belong in the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #151
You might have at least a shot at an argument IF COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #263
Because it became part of the story and that is what museums are about. Telling the story. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #265
What "story"? The story that some Xian folk cut the COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #267
Yea that is about the story. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #268
I agree. And that's why it's not constitutional to COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #269
I also see it as a separation of church and state issue marions ghost Mar 2014 #290
I'm for leaving the cross at the WTC as a reminder that the buildings were brought down stopbush Mar 2014 #174
Now that is an interesting take on it. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #176
Indeed. Likewise, it's also religious fanatics who are insisting that the WTC cross stopbush Mar 2014 #191
Am I a religious fanatic because I think it belongs in the museum? hrmjustin Mar 2014 #193
Not necessarily. Depends on your reasons for putting it in the museum. stopbush Mar 2014 #195
Lol well I asked. I appreciate your point of view and honesty. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #196
Actually the way I take it, JoeyT Mar 2014 #237
I take from it perseverance. When I saw it I saw that we will prevail. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #238
As a Christian you saw it as a symbol of "we will prevail" marions ghost Mar 2014 #306
"Debris" gave you comfort? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #30
Yes it did. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #32
What was so special about this piece of "debris" that made it different than all the rest? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #36
It was a symbol of perseverance for some. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #38
LOL, yes. BECAUSE it is a cross. Not because it is debris. Bonobo Mar 2014 #43
This message was self-deleted by its author hrmjustin Mar 2014 #45
A symbol? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #44
Indeed it does. also the sign of faith of many NYers. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #47
And of course the rest of those New Yorkers don't count anyway.. Fumesucker Mar 2014 #52
Well atheists count in my book. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #54
As long as they are "good" atheists.. Fumesucker Mar 2014 #58
I was aware of the offer. I live here in NY and I find your first remark insulting. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #64
I find the lie in the OP insulting Fumesucker Mar 2014 #93
Oh you were referring to the op not me? hrmjustin Mar 2014 #123
Then you should have no objection to this piece being replaced with a less offensive piece, right? Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #55
Yes I object. This piece of debris is a part of the story. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #60
Every piece is part of the story. This is just a particularly offensive piece. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #66
Well we will just have to disagree. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #68
Thank you. If it is debris, it is debris. Can't have it both ways. Bonobo Mar 2014 #40
The Arizona is debris. There have been quite a few religious services on this government property. rug Mar 2014 #197
Arizona is hallowed ground. No more violative of the 1st COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #264
So is the WTC, if you insist on the word "hallowed". rug Mar 2014 #266
Yep and there have been dozens if not more COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #270
It's also an artifact of a human reaction to the eveent. rug Mar 2014 #271
Interesting idea but as a legal argument COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #272
That's the argument of the District Court. rug Mar 2014 #273
Line of questions doesn't indicate COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #299
What is that supposed to mean? COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #300
"...and had the 17-foot-tall, 4,000-pound cross cut from it" Silent3 Mar 2014 #33
That maybe true but it is debris. It is also a part of the story here in NY and should be a part hrmjustin Mar 2014 #37
What if it had been cut into the shape of a Golden Calf? nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #48
Then they have talent. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #51
I was reading down through and... that was freaking funny. nt 1awake Mar 2014 #107
Thank you. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #119
It was a cross fashioned from debris. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #57
It was cut. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #61
Incredible (accidental?) symmetry! Bonobo Mar 2014 #69
Look you don't have to like it but the courts appear to be on the side of allowing it. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #72
Do me a favor and answer this question: Bonobo Mar 2014 #74
I personally would think it fine. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #75
Thank you for your answer. nt Bonobo Mar 2014 #76
Did you know Silverman and AA opposed a prominent Star of David at a Holocaust museum? rug Mar 2014 #200
Again, they were asking for equal time LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #242
I don't think you'll win the argument that atheists as a group suffered equally in rhe Holocaust. rug Mar 2014 #247
Was not talking about atheists LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #259
So if someone had turned 9/11 debris into a giant dildo, you'd still be saying... Silent3 Mar 2014 #216
If they did that it definitely shoold be in the museum. hrmjustin Mar 2014 #217
Could someone tell me what is so wrong with including a plaque LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #23
Now that puts things in a different light indeed.. Fumesucker Mar 2014 #27
Yeah but WE ARE THE BAD GUYS HERE LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #35
In fact, it doesn't even put things in a "different" light skepticscott Mar 2014 #96
Nope, it's only the Christians who matter. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #136
So. All 3000 who died were Christians? No. Just who are we honoring here? Only the Christians who Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #41
Because everyone else is going to Hell of course Fumesucker Mar 2014 #49
Thank you Mother Mary Magellan who taught me that lesson oh so many decades ago. Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #56
I think it is really sad how some Christians are incapable of seeing the world through anything liberal_at_heart Mar 2014 #53
If someone were to suggest a Star of David be put up to commemorate the 9/11 victims... Bonobo Mar 2014 #59
It's completely different Fumesucker Mar 2014 #65
+9,001 (nt) LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #86
More that christians and atheists were killed that day.. jews, buddhists, hindis, muslims, agnostics Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #62
Wiccans, Sikhs, there might even have been a Shinto or a Jain or two Fumesucker Mar 2014 #71
I support cutting it up, selling the scrap, and using the money for a true memorial. nt Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #63
+1 Hissyspit Mar 2014 #73
Take something that is meaningful to people, and scrap it for what? tritsofme Mar 2014 #132
Because the damn thing is ugly, for starters. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #142
lol, right...how absurd to have a symbol of the tragedy at a museum commemorating it. tritsofme Mar 2014 #190
The desire to ignore that AA simply wants to put a plaque there LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #198
I started replying to the person who proposed sending it to the scrapper, literally erasing it. tritsofme Mar 2014 #201
It is a symbol of hate -- the same type of bronze age delusional that inspired the hijackers.... Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #244
Never, never... liberalmuse Mar 2014 #88
What a shitty article upholding Christian privilege... MellowDem Mar 2014 #95
Considering the WTC was a shrine to Mammon, this is ironic. WinkyDink Mar 2014 #98
No, it is fitting. Ikonoklast Mar 2014 #160
Point WELL taken. WinkyDink Mar 2014 #235
So some world trade worker comes up with his version of Jesus-burnt-toast or water-stain-Jesus.... Hassin Bin Sober Mar 2014 #99
It wasn't even that good Major Nikon Mar 2014 #105
There is a Jesus stencil for toast. I have one Luminous Animal Mar 2014 #153
Does it look something like this... Major Nikon Mar 2014 #154
read the article people edhopper Mar 2014 #100
Nope they want to shove it down our throats, because it gave them comfort. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #145
"The beam was pulled from the wreakage and CUT INTO A CROSS!" amuse bouche Mar 2014 #303
Religion brought us 911, so I guess a cross is historuically correct. BlueStreak Mar 2014 #102
If it were not in the shape of a cross.. pangaia Mar 2014 #106
Let's not be ingenuous. This artifact COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #108
Exactly amuse bouche Mar 2014 #109
Agreed. The discovered girder crosspiece was snipped to the proportions of the Xtian cross. John1956PA Mar 2014 #152
Yup RedCappedBandit Mar 2014 #205
too bad people just can't get along Niceguy1 Mar 2014 #110
There's nothing misguided about that at all. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #113
Mary Elizabeth Williams is one of Salon's stable of anti-atheism/pro-Catholicism writers MNBrewer Mar 2014 #115
Does it stand to signify the Crusade Bush undertook in response to this attack Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #116
In reality, yes. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #146
If it is on public property, it is in fact illegal. alarimer Mar 2014 #120
I favor its removal. Chan790 Mar 2014 #121
The "cross" is not "part of what happened". It was manufactured. After the fact. NYC Liberal Mar 2014 #122
Agreed. I'd give the sculpture to a church in the area affected by 9/11. DinahMoeHum Mar 2014 #165
Just so I'm clear on this, God killed 3000+ people to create an ugly sculpture? Orrex Mar 2014 #177
I still wish the atheists could win more often. Jamastiene Mar 2014 #130
Best post. Ever. GreenEyedLefty Mar 2014 #180
Both the holy rollers and the faithiests need to chill out seveneyes Mar 2014 #138
I think you are miss using the word faithiest LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #155
Well I did mean it as Faith + Atheist seveneyes Mar 2014 #183
Faitheist usually means an Atheist who promotes religion LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #184
Atheism has no dogma phil89 Mar 2014 #283
Salon's on a roll with these irrational polemics lately. DirkGently Mar 2014 #148
Excellent! John1956PA Mar 2014 #213
I'm a fervent atheist, but I believe this is the wrong fight. dballance Mar 2014 #156
So you support AA in LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #157
I would certainly support other religions/non-religions honoring their dead. However, dballance Mar 2014 #163
I get and respect that LostOne4Ever Mar 2014 #166
My town held a big Jesus festival in the park after 9/11... Walk away Mar 2014 #159
I have never in my life heard a Christian claim that "Christians are so great". Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #171
It happened in Rutherford NJ and it's one of the reasons... Walk away Mar 2014 #186
Yeah... How dare those lousy atheists want to propagate reason Ohio Joe Mar 2014 #161
Because it's always misguided to fight for a Constitutional principle. stopbush Mar 2014 #167
What are these atheists so worried about? Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #172
When you can present a Constitutional argument, we'll talk. stopbush Mar 2014 #175
When Congress makes a law respecting an establishment of religion, we'll talk (nt) Nye Bevan Mar 2014 #179
Displaying Christian symbols on public property COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #261
The ACLU often defends white supremacists Major Nikon Mar 2014 #178
They want a more inclusive monument Fumesucker Mar 2014 #181
It helps make the irrational beliefs behind religion seem ok when they're really not. phil89 Mar 2014 #284
As a long-time atheist, I'm of two minds regarding this. MineralMan Mar 2014 #182
+1 as a Christian I agree TNLib Mar 2014 #187
Thanks! MineralMan Mar 2014 #188
Excellent post. 2banon Mar 2014 #246
I vehemently disagree amuse bouche Mar 2014 #189
Nah, it's not a misguided fight. nt RedCappedBandit Mar 2014 #206
If the cross was of significant meaning for Christian rescuers at the site.... Beartracks Mar 2014 #208
I'm not sure the cross is meant to "honor" anyone goldent Mar 2014 #215
A two-ton memorial is not "tiny" starroute Mar 2014 #231
Every one of the rescue workers were Christians? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #222
Of course not. But obviously the one(s) who fashioned the cross were. n/t Beartracks Mar 2014 #274
The cross doesn't "do" anything. It's an inert piece COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #262
Simply including the cross at a public museum wouldn't be promoting a religion... Beartracks Mar 2014 #275
First of all, displaying it in a museum - public or private COLGATE4 Mar 2014 #298
OK, I must admit I don't know where or how it is being displayed. Beartracks Mar 2014 #311
This message was self-deleted by its author goldent Mar 2014 #212
As an atheist I have no problem with the cross. nt hack89 Mar 2014 #218
As a non-atheist, I do marions ghost Mar 2014 #292
I just think we have bigger issues in America to deal with hack89 Mar 2014 #293
If we didn't have the religious fundies marions ghost Mar 2014 #294
This has nothing to do with religious fundies hack89 Mar 2014 #295
It has everything to do with Fundyism marions ghost Mar 2014 #296
ok nt hack89 Mar 2014 #297
Considering the location, a dollar sign-shaped steel beam would be more appropriate Tom Ripley Mar 2014 #234
good point marions ghost Mar 2014 #291
I think I vaguely understand cvoogt Mar 2014 #243
seems like this post should be in the religious forum 2banon Mar 2014 #245
FFS DustyJoe Mar 2014 #251
I'm sick of being surrounded by people's superstitious symbolism.... mike_c Mar 2014 #277
Hear, Here! 2banon Mar 2014 #280
This. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #285
Yep. amuse bouche Mar 2014 #304
Exactly. DavidDvorkin Mar 2014 #305
I Agree 100% Corey_Baker08 Mar 2014 #286
The same people out there who are up in arms about the opposition to this religious symbol edhopper Mar 2014 #312
 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
2. Agreed. I'm not religious but I know a lot of Americans are
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 12:52 AM
Mar 2014

And quite a few of those are Christian. If this cross structure protruding from the ruins of WTC helps them porocess it, who is some jackass atheist zealot to get in the way? Stupid, stupid intolerance.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
3. Yes, it's quite a leap from "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 12:57 AM
Mar 2014

to "A memorial to a terrorist atrocity shall not include a historically significant item recovered from the wreckage which happens to have the same shape as the symbol for one particular religion".

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
7. I remember the days after 9/11, the memorials, the worship services
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:03 AM
Mar 2014

It took until Tony fucking Bliar said "People of all religions and no religion at all" before atheists ever got so much as a mention. And there are at least as many atheists in the US as Jews.

After the first couple of days I started actively listening for any mention of those of us who are unable to believe in a god, no Americans on my television ever mentioned us.

Remember when Wolf Blitzer harassed that poor atheist woman who was a survivor of the tornado about "Didn't you pray to God?".



 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
11. That certainly wasn't what I was focused on-making 9/11 all about me
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:10 AM
Mar 2014

and how aggrieved I was because people were talking about God with no mention of comforting atheists.

But even if I did feel that way THIRTEEN years ago, I wouldn't begrudge people of faith wanting that cross on display.

It's not like they were lining up atheist on TV and humiliating them because this tragedy didn't cause them to believe in God.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
17. Like I said, it took a couple of days before I really noticed that no one had mentioned me
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:20 AM
Mar 2014

Christians were hurting and that got mentioned, Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Jews, all were hurting and got their mention and their solace.

And yet it was highly religious people who caused the carnage in the first place.

I'm used to being left out so it didn't really bother me but I did think it was ironic, I'm not sure if there has ever been an atheist suicide bomber for godlessness.





Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
131. Don't you just love the in your face version of Christianity and how they
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:00 PM
Mar 2014

like to shove it down your throat and then tell you that you are the one thinking only of yourself?

What a bunch of jackasses. For some of us, having Christianity shoved in our faces means way more than just someone following their religion. For me, it means rape, literally raped in the name of god back in 1989. I guess I'm supposed to just love that and look forward to more of the love of god, in the form of more rape happening to me. Sorry, in your face Christians, I won't be doing that. It's called weaponry and the next damn time some asshole tries that shit on me, it is going to be a bloodbath, theirs. I'm so goddamn sick of their shit.

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
141. I'll never forget Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson on 9/13.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:11 PM
Mar 2014

This is who was responsible for 9/11, according to them:

JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this.

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, yes.

JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen'.

PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
147. Yup.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:18 PM
Mar 2014

ANY chance they get to bash the GLBT community and women, they jump on it, whether it has anything to do with what happened or not. They will literally make stuff up as they go along JUST to bash people, then scream that they are being oppressed when some of us object to that religion being shoved down our throats at every turn.

 

Hestia

(3,818 posts)
254. Nor were Pagans mentioned, as if we are something to be swept under the carpet.
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 01:05 PM
Mar 2014

The Majors have the PR - we can't even get equal access to the Constitution or the law.

I say take it down too - why should the public see the constant symbols of a death cult - which is what christianity is.

The Straight Story

(48,121 posts)
12. And there is plenty of religious symbolism in DC
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:11 AM
Mar 2014
http://www.nga.gov/content/ngaweb.html

Moses at the Supreme court:
http://www.supremecourt.gov/about/courtbuilding.aspx

Just to name a few. The Supreme court also has the three fates (Greek Mythology) and so on.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
101. You mean like talking donkeys, talking snakes, and talking bushes?
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 09:35 AM
Mar 2014

If you take the mythology out of Christianity, there isn't much left.

stopbush

(24,376 posts)
169. Exactly. Worse, most Xians assume that the Bible is historically accurate. It isn't.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:27 PM
Mar 2014

It's a collection of fables, a historical novel, at best. Sort of like Gone With The Wind - set in a real time populated by real people but giving the lead roles to fictional characters.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
173. Except 'Gone With The Wind' was an original story
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:36 PM
Mar 2014

Almost all biblical mythology was plagiarized from earlier mythology.

Even Jesus himself and even the New Testament were largely the product of common era historical revisionism. None of the gospels were written by those in which they are attributed, and the only evidence for the holy trinity was inserted into the biblical texts centuries after they were written. There's a few nuggets of historical fact contained in the bible, but the vast majority of it is smoke and mirrors hocus pocus.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
307. I believe the more accurate term would be "acculturation" rather than"plagiarized".
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 02:57 PM
Mar 2014

I believe the more accurate term would be "acculturation" rather than"plagiarized"... unless your looking for melodrama rather than accuracy.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
310. I believe the more accurate term is plagiarized
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 03:22 PM
Mar 2014

Since we are talking about mythological stories and written works rather than culture which would be far more inclusive.

YMMV.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
227. LOL!
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 08:52 PM
Mar 2014

A guy born of a deity-raped virgin who came back to life and is going to return to Earth at some point is not a myth? Seriously?

I get that some people think the teachings attributed to the figure Christ are good, but I'd be surprised if many people, if they are honest with themselves, actually believe, deep down, that the entire basis of the religion is anything other than a myth.

 

Hestia

(3,818 posts)
255. How is Gabriel any different from Zeus, Apollo, Hermes, et al? They too were considered divine and
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 01:08 PM
Mar 2014

Christos in their time.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
257. I didn't make up the deity rape story ... it's in that book that Xtians like to quote.
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 01:16 PM
Mar 2014

The attitude I see is: "Well stories relating to Zeus and Thor and Isis and Mohammad and Joseph Smith are clearly mythology, but stories about Jesus are not ... just because that's the particular brand of story that I'm culturally familiar with and it "sounds" right to me."

 

blueamy66

(6,795 posts)
258. You haven't seen that "attitude" from me....
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 02:07 PM
Mar 2014

Quit pigeonholing people. I don't quote scripture.

I am a Catholic/Christian that has many friends of many beliefs/religions.....Buddhists, Islam, Hindu, Mormon, Baptist, agnostic, atheist, Wiccan.....I have never told them that their beliefs were based on a myth.

Maybe you should become more "familiar" with other people/cultures/familes/countries....whatever......



 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
260. I am familiar with many cultures/countries/etc. and have friends of many beliefs
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 02:16 PM
Mar 2014

which is one reason I can see that all cultures have their own stories, but there is nothing to make one particular religious story "true" as opposed to the others. There is nothing to say that the resurrection of Jesus really happened, but, say, the Golden Tablets story is just a story. They're all stories.

However, some "religions," like Buddhism, do give some good, practical guidelines for living your day-to-day life, and I admire that.

Hissyspit

(45,788 posts)
87. "Jackass atheist zealot?"
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:31 AM
Mar 2014

Or it can be read as a rather ridiculous* attempt to appropriate the tragic murders as belonging only to the identity narratives of a particular religious group, which is kind of an insensitively zealous thing to do.

*See Post #77

amuse bouche

(3,657 posts)
103. Clearly, the jackasses
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 09:37 AM
Mar 2014

are the the ones seeing a religious symbol in ruble. Wasn't religion part of the motivation for 9/11 in the first place?

Are they decorating it with Jesus toast?

There will never be peace until worship of imaginary sky daddies dies off. The foolishness is pathetic

hlthe2b

(101,715 posts)
127. It's the remains of a steel beam cross-bar. If others wish to make more of it, so what?
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 12:45 PM
Mar 2014

Putting it on display as a remnant without attempts at "interpretation" is just fine with me.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
185. That piece of Iron was cut to look like a cross.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 03:16 PM
Mar 2014

It was no such thing when pulled from the rubble.

hlthe2b

(101,715 posts)
204. Who cares?
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 05:04 PM
Mar 2014

People will believe what they want to, regardless. If it brings the families of the lost peace, so be it.

If it stands there and the viewer is allowed to interpret in their own way, who is it hurting?

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
220. Quite a lot of us care.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 07:45 PM
Mar 2014

It is hurting non-Christians by the exclusion of any representation of their faith or lack there of.
Christians, which, BTW, are a minority world wide.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
252. I don't have one, but if I did, it would be something more inclusive, to include everyone who died.
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 10:48 AM
Mar 2014

Instead of that 'Cross' that had to be cut to shape to make it even.
I don't understand why or how, that the members of the majority religion in this country, Christianity, all 4000 some, various sects of it, that permeate our culture, act as if they are a persecuted minority, when in fact Christianity all but drowns out all other religious beliefs in their quest to make everyone think Christians are persecuted minority in this country, whenever they are stopped from running rough shod over non-Christians.

If Christianity were actually the one true religion, then why are there so many different versions of it?
Have a good day.

 

blueamy66

(6,795 posts)
253. I am Catholic. I don't feel persecuted, except at DU.
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 12:51 PM
Mar 2014
If Christianity were actually the one true religion, then why are there so many different versions of it?

That is a question that you need to ask of God.

Nay

(12,051 posts)
219. Well, if it's just a chunk of steel, why not display it upside down from its
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 07:17 PM
Mar 2014

present orientation? In fact, why not turn it upside down right now and see how many Christians come flocking to it to have a little prayer.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
4. "If Christ had lived in the modern age Christians would all be wearing little electric chairs"
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 12:59 AM
Mar 2014

-Lenny Bruce

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
6. Or 9mm handgun. Jesus would have been gunned down by Judas
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:02 AM
Mar 2014

Who would then take his own life using suicide by cop after a day long standoff.

A reboot of the Jesus story set in LA would be interesting.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
5. If they want to keep that cross there, fine.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:02 AM
Mar 2014

But I don't get why it's some inspirational thing. I would think 3000 people being allowed to continue their lives would've been a more merciful act by an all-loving God than preserving a crossbeam from their grave.

 

Scootaloo

(25,699 posts)
89. Well, it's not about THEM, it's about ME
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 03:26 AM
Mar 2014

i see the Mel Gibson / M. Night Shyalaman film "Signs" as pretty much the quintessential example of religious thinking. I would warn you of spoilers, but as i reccomend never watching it, I won't bother.

In this film, mel Gibson's character is an ordained minister who "lost the faith" when his wife died in a car crash some years back. he lives with his "quirky" family - his son's life revolves around the asthma inhaler, his daughter collects glasses of water, and his younger brother is trying ot hold onto the glory days of a professional baseball career after an injury benched him permanantly.

AND THEN ALIENS INVADE THE PLANET!!!

No seriously, aliens come down and snatch people. Tons and tons of people, apparently. They attack the Gibson farmhouse, and after lots of being stymied by boarded windows ("WOOD!&quot finally manage to break in and snatch Gibson's son... they try to use a gas to kill the kid - but since his asthma is flaring, it can't get into his lungs. A glass of water tips over, revealing hte aliens are allergic to water (...Smart move, invading earth, yutzes.) And so little brother grab his baseball bat and starts smashing all those glasses of water, melting the aliens.

End of the movie? Concludes that the entire thing was an ordeal from a "higher power" to show Gibson that everything has a purpose, and he regains his faith. end of movie.

Fuck those millions of people eaten by the dumbest aliens ever. They're not important. They're background noise to mel Gibson's personal development and his "relationship with god."

That's religion.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
134. Great post.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:03 PM
Mar 2014

I wish I could DU Rec this post right by itself. It sums up how most people practice their religion perfectly.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
9. I don't think it's misguided.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:07 AM
Mar 2014

It's a cross and it truly alienates some that are not Christian.

It is hard to appreciate if you are yourself not one of those people, but it does.

BTW, I don't want to fight about it. I am just sharing my viewpoint, ok?

 

Pretzel_Warrior

(8,361 posts)
13. Then there are a lot of atheists just as intolerant and unfeeling as they
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:12 AM
Mar 2014

Profess religious people to be. How petty of a thing to get hung up on.

Full disclosure: I am agnostic.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
15. Feeling alienated when you see a religious icon that excludes you is not itself petty or intolerant.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:16 AM
Mar 2014

Demanding that it may be removed is arguably intolerant.

Petty? I don't think it's petty.

I am sensitive to both sides of the issue and not sure where I stand -full disclosure. I doubt I would demand it be removed, but that does not stop me from also identifying with people who have been victims of religious iconery that is used to exclude them.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
26. Thanks!
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:33 AM
Mar 2014

I appreciate you saying that. I'm personally making an effort today to try to reclaim what DU once was -instead of a place to continually get outraged and someone and exaggerate their position to the point where they become the personification of everything that is wrong and evil - I am trying to chill out and just talk and listen.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
83. I, as a person raised in the Catholic Church, find the cross unsettling
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:20 AM
Mar 2014

and not at all inspirational.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
84. And I, as a Jew (non-practicing) find it so as well.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:22 AM
Mar 2014

Flashes back to siblings getting beaten up to refrains of "You killed Jesus!"

penultimate

(1,110 posts)
158. I never understood why others religious symbols and beliefs
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:47 PM
Mar 2014

makes other feel alienated. I'm not religious myself, but a cross has never made me felt alienated. Neither has a star of david, cresent and star, ying yang or anything else. It's a strange concept to me that I have a hard time understanding. Perhaps someone can explain why such symbols make them feel alienated, and maybe give a real life example. The most I've heard is people saying that it might make others feel alienated, but I've never had anyone say it makes them feel alienated.

*I'm not fighting, just curious.

LostOne4Ever

(9,267 posts)
164. I find it alienating
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:10 PM
Mar 2014

That the museum meant to honor the victims of 9/11, and which is located on PUBLIC LAND, is fighting so hard to keep a religious symbol (that was manufactured after the event) in the museum, and to keep a similar artifact honoring the non-religious victims OUT of the museum even though its being offered free of charge.

Believers get their memorial object and non-believers don't? And they are using PUBLIC land to promote one religious view and not the secular alternative?

Why shouldn't I feel alienated about this? They are pretty much saying our lives are not as important or worth honoring.

starroute

(12,977 posts)
14. It's not just a memorial -- they're taking it as some kind of miracle
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:14 AM
Mar 2014

A lot of people died on 9/11 who weren't Christians, but as usual the Christianists think it was all about them. And that is not a good thing.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
78. Those were dark days for me personally and it gave me a sense of hope that we would get
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:12 AM
Mar 2014

through it.

 

RC

(25,592 posts)
194. A real miracle isn't it?
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 03:40 PM
Mar 2014

Especially when it has to be cut to look like something other than more wreckage.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
308. For approximately the same reason that imaginary red and blue lines on a map give comfort to people
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 03:02 PM
Mar 2014

For approximately the same reason that imaginary red and blue lines on a map give comfort to people, or imaginary philosophies give comfort to people.

But then again, I don't look for objective measures in comfort... I'll leave that to the combative.

 

Arugula Latte

(50,566 posts)
229. And where was their asshole of a god on 9-11? What, "he" had something better to do than prevent
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 08:55 PM
Mar 2014

carnage and mass murder? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
309. Much as I use to think in regards to my parents
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 03:07 PM
Mar 2014

" is pointless if your god doesn't intervene in anything..."

Much as I use to think in regards to my parents when they failed to answer to my liking, or even answer at all, every single question I'd ever posed to them in my youth, regardless of how trivial or how much of a waste of both mine and their time the questions may have been...

After asking for, and being denied money to purchase Magical Sea-Horses when I was seven, I too decided that asking them for anything was pointless.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
16. It is a part of the story and I say leave it in the museum.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:17 AM
Mar 2014

Gave comfort to many of us in this city.

LostOne4Ever

(9,267 posts)
24. Then let us put up a plaque
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:30 AM
Mar 2014

So that we can be comforted as well.

Seeing as the AA is offering to pay for it, that does not seem to be too much to ask.

LostOne4Ever

(9,267 posts)
29. I know
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:35 AM
Mar 2014

I am Just really angry at how the AA/us atheists in general are being portrayed by this.

Its being portrayed like all we want to do is remove the cross, when the AA not only is offering a way around that but are offering to PAY for it.

But we are the bad guys here? Really?

Mariana

(14,849 posts)
149. I think you're right.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:23 PM
Mar 2014

There's no reason not to put this piece of sculpture into the museum. In fact, the workers who cut it out into that shape should be named and given credit as the artists.

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
19. I think the atheists have a point
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:23 AM
Mar 2014

and I am no fan of atheists in general, trust me. But if they are going to put up a Christian symbol, the other religions should be represented as well, with their own symbols. It's not like only Christians died in the twin towers, I'm pretty sure there were atheists, Buddhists, Muslims, and others.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
28. Forgive me, but that is just plain disingenuous.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:35 AM
Mar 2014

When a Jew or a Muslim sees it, they know what they are looking at. As do Christians.

Believe it or not, for some a cross is a symbol of hate and oppression.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
31. We can argue what others think of the cross all day long but the metal itself is debris and...
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:37 AM
Mar 2014

... it gave comfort to people in this city.

The cross is a sign of redemption for me and other Christians.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
39. Yes, I appreciate that it is a sign of redemption for you and other Christians.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:43 AM
Mar 2014

That's why there are houses of worship for you.

The metal itself is debris and it is a clear cross that makes some people feel uncomfortable -the same people who also were victims of 9/11.

IOW, go to church to be comforted by a cross. It has no place as an exclusionary symbol in a place where people of all races and religions were killed.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
42. The cross is a part of the 9 11 story and should be a part of the museum.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:45 AM
Mar 2014

The cross excludes no one. It is Christians that do that.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
46. A distinction without a difference.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:46 AM
Mar 2014

The cross was fashioned and is given ritual attention because it is a cross. Not because it is mere debris.

If it were the debris, you would be paying ritual attention to a melted phone.

 

phil89

(1,043 posts)
279. Which means absolutely nothing.
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 08:47 PM
Mar 2014

No one should be expected to respect irrational, bizarre beliefs about random symbols supposedly from a "god" no one can see or demonstrate exists. It's just fueling a backward mindset.

Gore1FL

(21,030 posts)
226. They would disagree because they "found" religious meaning in it
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 08:50 PM
Mar 2014

largely due to it's resemblance to an ancient form of capitol punishment.

I am sure, given the opportunity, I could have found scrap metal at the site that looks more or less like the flying spaghetti monster, too. Would that be an appropriate part of the memorial?

Hissyspit

(45,788 posts)
81. Correct, I misread what you wrote.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:17 AM
Mar 2014

However you did say it is debris and not a religious item. But then you said it was a sign/symbol (the cross), which makes it a religious item.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
82. As a technical matter it is just debris.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:19 AM
Mar 2014

Due to the fact that it became a part of the story I think it should go in the museum.

pipi_k

(21,020 posts)
125. From the POV
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 12:43 PM
Mar 2014

of an Atheist...

IMO, it's a piece of debris because that's the way it was found. What I mean is, nobody actually fashioned it into a cross after pulling it from the wreckage, am I correct?

So if, by chance, a Star of David or a crescent moon were found in the debris, not formed by human hand into either of those shapes, it would be the same.


Hence, debris found in wreckage, but debris that resembles a religious symbol.

If Star of David or crescent moon shapes had been discovered in the wreckage, I would hope that they would also be given a place of honor.


PS...that cross being there doesn't bother me. In fact, it sort of pisses me off that the Atheist group is giving this so much negative attention because it only gives (some) Christians even more reason to claim they're being "persecuted".



PPS...OK, reading some more, it appears that it kinda sorta was fashioned by human hands. But not intentionally glued or stuck together to make a cross shape...

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
104. It was debris until it was purposely altered
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 09:41 AM
Mar 2014

Then it became religious symbology. Yes, it is disingenuous to call it debris.

Imagine the outrage if someone had carved a crescent and star into one of the beams and wanted it put on display at the memorial. The reaction would be completely different, which simply underscores the Christian privilege aspect.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
111. Except that it wasn't purposely altered.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 11:21 AM
Mar 2014

Which is part of why it gave so many people for whom it is a symbol comfort. A crescent and star found on a beam in the rubble might have given a different population comfort - and if that had been the case it should also should have a place in the museum.

The cross, and any other similar symbol rising from the debris which comforted many during that tragic time, should be part of the historical record of the event.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
112. Did you read the OP?
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 11:58 AM
Mar 2014
Construction worker Frank Silecchia pulled the beam from the ruins of the towers shortly after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, and had the 17-foot-tall, 4,000-pound cross cut from it.


While I suppose any given intersection of two pieces of structural steel could be "found" to be a cross, when one purposely cuts the rest of it out it's hard to imagine how it wasn't purposely altered.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
162. Yes. But I also have my own memories which do not match the twist in the article.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:05 PM
Mar 2014

or this thread. The cross was found sticking out of the rubble.



Yes, it was cut at the base in conjunction with removing it from the rubble. That is not the same thing as finding a piece or pieces of debris and creating a cross from it, which is what is being implied.

It was the form of the debris as it was found which it was found which was inspirational to those for whom it has meaning, not the fact that it was cut at the base in order to remove it. If there are similar inspirational pieces of debris (religious or not) from which large numbers of people took comfort, I would support including those as well.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
170. Someone found an image of Jesus on a dog's ass also
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:27 PM
Mar 2014
http://www.google.com/search?q=dog+butt+jesus

That doesn't mean it should be significant and certainly doesn't mean my tax dollars should support a 'born again' iron worker who decided to make a big deal about it.

Here's two more "crosses" which could have just as easily been fabricated like the one which was "found". It was simply a matter of how the structural steel was prefabricated prior to construction.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
199. You are being disingenuous
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 04:04 PM
Mar 2014

Unless you live in New York, your tax dollars aren't being spent on it. The project is funded primarily by donations, with a small (15% of the total) grant from New York State.

The picture of "Jesus on a dog's ass" is not something which provided comfort to a substantial number of people in the wake of 9/11 (nor is it, in any way, associated with the event).

As to your picture, neither of those are protruding through the rubble having the appearance of a cross - those look like building remnants. They would actually have to be cut to form a cross, unlike the cross in dispute. Nor were either the two beam intersections in your picture the one which actually was found and actually did bring comfort to a substantial number of people. The comfort that symbol provided (regardless of whether you think it should provide comfort) was real and is a part of the 9/11 story. There is a difference between deliberately creating something which might theoretically be comforting to one who holds certain beliefs and including it in the museum, and recognizing the role an object actually did provide - which is why it belongs in the museum.

I would have no objection (nor should anyone else) to including a similar item associated with 9/11 which gained a similar status. (Such as - if they exist - other religious or secular symbols which were

For example - I happen to find the image below mildly offensive because of the way in which our flag is often used as part of the war machine/extreme patriotism/exclusion of those who are not citizens. In the same way the cross is often used against non-Christians.



That image certainly did not bring me comfort - but I acknowledge that it brought many comfort and it would be petty of me to demand that it be omitted because I, personally, find it an image of intolerance.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
210. You are being just flat wrong
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 05:43 PM
Mar 2014
Unless you live in New York, your tax dollars aren't being spent on it. The project is funded primarily by donations, with a small (15% of the total) grant from New York State.


1/3rd of the annual operating budget will come from federal funds:
SEC. 5. AUTHORIZATION OF APPROPRIATIONS.

There is authorized to be appropriated to carry out this Act not more than $20,000,000 for fiscal year 2013 and each fiscal year thereafter, subject to the requirement that any funds appropriated to carry out this Act shall be matched with funds from non-Federal sources.

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c112:S.+1537:

1/3rd of the costs of building the project are being paid by the LMDC which is financed exclusively by federal funds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Manhattan_Development_Corporation

So yes, my tax dollars are being spent on both building the museum and operating it.



Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
214. That bill has not passed.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 06:52 PM
Mar 2014

It is not even out of committee, so no, your federal tax dollars are not paying 1/3 of the cost of the operating budget. That was a proposed bill, which has gone nowhere.

As to the LDMC, I don't have time at the moment to research it - but the information I previously found split the bill between a privately funded charitable organization (85%) and the state of New York (15%). I'll check later.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
224. You are correct on the building fund.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 08:35 PM
Mar 2014

I found a more detailed funding description, and a portion of the building costs do come from federal funds.

From a legal perspective, it is a legal use of the money. The Lemon tests for the use of public money for a purpose which may have an incidental religious impact is:

The government's action must have a secular purpose;
The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion;
The government's action must not result in an "excessive government entanglement" with religion.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
232. I'm not convinced it's a legal use of the money
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 09:37 PM
Mar 2014

But as I mentioned downthread I'm not saying the legal case is rock solid. A conservative judge(s) could certainly rule against it and it wouldn't surprise me, but then again there are many conservative judges that just do whatever they want regardless of the Constitution and some of which simply disregard the Lemon test.

There's nothing secular about a cross. It's Christian symbology designed to promote and advance Christianity. That's two out of the three and only one is a fail. The third is arguable.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
233. It is really not even a close legal call.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 10:02 PM
Mar 2014

It is part of the story of 9/11. The secular purpose is to tell the story of 9/11 (which includes strong visual images of the cross sticking out of the rubble, the image of raising the flag, the jumpers' bodies, the plane hitting the tower), and the effect on the viewer is to bring to mind that image, among others. It is a pretty mainstream constitutional analysis - and I have a hard time imagining any of the judges I know (conservative or liberal) ruling in favor of the atheists.

It would be a different question if they had (as the story is currently being twisted) just hauled out a bunch of criss-crossed I beams and chopped a cross out of it for the sake of creating a cross. But that isn't what happened.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
236. It is exactly what happened
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 10:18 PM
Mar 2014

The photo you posted isn't even the same crossed beams which only proves that one and the one that's being presented as "special" really aren't.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
239. Tell that to the guy who found it.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 10:52 PM
Mar 2014
When the time came for what was left of building six to be removed, God's House faced demolition. Father Jordan talked to officials and persuaded them to save the cross. After it was removed from the site, ironworkers fixed the cross to a concrete base, then hoisted it up and mounted it atop a 40-foot foundation that had been a pedestrian walkway outside the World Trade Center. It stood high enough that the rescue workers who were down in the pit could see it whenever they lifted their heads.


http://www.guideposts.org/faith-and-hope/faith-renewed-cross-ground-zero

The image I posted was the one associated with the first version of the story I ran across which I could verify came from Frank Silecchia- the person who found it. This story above (the second with reliable attribution) indicates he found a collection crosses in an isolated portion of the rubble. Only one of them was saved (the note above), removed, and fixed to a concrete base. The image may be the same cross from a different perspective - or a different one in the same area of the rubble.

And the issue isn't that it is "special,"or a miracle. It is that that particular cross was found (not created as the story is being twisted) in the rubble, and gave a substantial number of people hope and comfort. That makes it an important part of the story of 9/11.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
240. It gave people "hope and comfort" because of its Christian symbology
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 11:17 PM
Mar 2014

...and for no other reason. It was in no way extraordinary and there's nothing secular about it. And yes, lots of people did try to make it into a miracle, including lumping lots of bullshit into the story.


Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
241. And if you were Jewish -
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 11:29 PM
Mar 2014

a Star of David might have given you hope and comfort. If you are a sucker for rescue dogs, the sight of the rescue dogs in their little booties might have given you hope and comfort. If the flag floats your boat, the image that was reminiscent of Iwo Jima might have been your thing.

We are not all wired the same way - and all of these (aside from the Star of David, which I am not aware anyone actually found) ought to be included as part of the memorial because they are part of the universal experience of seeking comfort in time of great tragedy.

 

phil89

(1,043 posts)
282. It certainly was altered. From the article:
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 09:16 PM
Mar 2014

"Construction worker Frank Silecchia pulled the beam from the ruins of the towers shortly after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, and had the 17-foot-tall, 4,000-pound cross cut from it." Some miracle.

Ms. Toad

(33,915 posts)
287. As I've said before, the article is twisting the facts.
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 10:46 PM
Mar 2014

If you were paying attention to the news reports about what was going on at ground zero you would know that - or could easily research it. I've also posted pictures of it (or one of the small collection of which it was a part) for the research impaired.

The portion of the beam which was visible when it was found was a cross. (There were actually a few of them in a protected area of rubble - the rest were taken to the landfill. Cutting the cross off at the base so it can be set in concrete and placed in a location where it continued to provide comfort to some of the workers as they continued clean up is not the same as altering the beams to create a cross (as is being implied).

I certainly have never said it was a miracle. What I have said is it is a important part of the 9/11 story - one of the things which gave hope and comfort to some individuals in the aftermath of the tragedy. As part of the story of how people emotionally survived the aftermath, it is appropriate to include it in the museum.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
124. You can say the same thing about Proposition 8
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 12:42 PM
Mar 2014

Which is another example of Christian privilege affecting poll results.

Just sayin'

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
128. Both are civil rights issues
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 12:52 PM
Mar 2014

I'm not saying this particular case will prevail from a constitutional standpoint, but just that one should not put that much stock in civil rights issues that are put to a vote. Civil rights issues are almost always about the oppression of a minority by the majority. As such the majority has a distinct advantage when such things are put to a vote.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
133. It's state promotion of Christianity
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:03 PM
Mar 2014

Promoting one religious idea without offering equal opportunity to all others is oppression. That's why the government should not be in the business or promoting any of it.

How do you think the poll would have gone if the steel would have been made into a star and crescent?

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
135. I imagine it would not get the same support.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:04 PM
Mar 2014

Look I am sympathetic in these cases but in this case I think it belongs in a museum.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
143. The funds come from public and private sources
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:12 PM
Mar 2014

Most of the funds are private, but a huge chunk comes in the form of federal grants and NY state support.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
150. That's not the issue
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:24 PM
Mar 2014

The issue is you have a museum being funded by public funds being used by people who want to promote Christianity. If they want to buy private land and fill it full of crosses I have no issues with it.

It really shouldn't even be a constitutional matter at all. If Christians can erect a monument to Christian victims, then Muslims, Buddists, Atheists, and every other assorted interest can too and suddenly the memorial is now more about promoting various viewpoints and less about remembering what happened.

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
263. You might have at least a shot at an argument IF
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 05:40 PM
Mar 2014

the artifact in question had somehow miraculously appeared as a full blown proportionally correct Roman Cross, sticking out of the rubble by itself. But that's not what it is. This is 2 beams from WTC which are attached at right angles (how many thousands of those are there in a construction the size of the WTC?) which was fashioned - cut down- to have the shape of a Christian cross. What about that makes it worthy of being in a museum???

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
267. What "story"? The story that some Xian folk cut the
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 05:46 PM
Mar 2014

artifact into the shape of a cross and then they and other Xian folk venerated it?

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
269. I agree. And that's why it's not constitutional to
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 06:07 PM
Mar 2014

display this clearly religious artifact on public property. Let them give it to a church of their choice to display it wherever. But displaying a symbol of one religion (and, just to forestall the inevitable, the Supreme Court has already held that the Roman Cross is a religious symbol) in a clear, inexcusable violation of the First Amendment's separation of church and state.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
290. I also see it as a separation of church and state issue
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 08:20 AM
Mar 2014

The placement of this artifact is wrong.

Normally I would not care about what people want to erect where, on their own property. But I did object to the ten commandments sculpture on public sites. I'm not an atheist but I think you have to be very careful with cultural icons that imply consensus. What they have done with this offends me. Consider the recent attempts to turn this country into The Republic of Gilead.

It would be better to use a piece of the wreckage in a more abstract shape, as iconic sculpture.
That would speak just as well to people of all religions or none.

This was an opportunity for inclusivity and solidarity --whatever you want to call it when you honor all people equally.

An opportunity missed.

stopbush

(24,376 posts)
174. I'm for leaving the cross at the WTC as a reminder that the buildings were brought down
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:36 PM
Mar 2014

entirely due to religious belief.

stopbush

(24,376 posts)
191. Indeed. Likewise, it's also religious fanatics who are insisting that the WTC cross
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 03:37 PM
Mar 2014

be displayed as an artifact at the museum while not allowing non-religious symbols of equal size be displayed as well.

stopbush

(24,376 posts)
195. Not necessarily. Depends on your reasons for putting it in the museum.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 03:54 PM
Mar 2014

You could still be a religious fanatic and have a non-religious reason for including it in the museum.

BTW - when I use the word "fanatic," it comes down to a case of single-mindedness, as in the dictionary definition of fanatic: "a person filled with excessive and single-minded zeal, esp. for an extreme religious or political cause."

Most Xians in this country are lukewarm/milquetoast in their beliefs. As in Biblical times, most Xians today would renounce their beliefs were a gun put to their heads. They're not going to die for their beliefs, as did the fanatics who flew the planes into the WTC.

That said, it takes a certain level of conceit or sense of personal privilege (ie: entitlement) to believe in the fantasies of the Bible and to treat them as if they are historical in any modern sense of the word. Things like the Resurrection and the miracles of Jesus are childish fables that don't pass the smell test in a rational view of the world.

There's a hint of fanaticism in even the most-moderate of religious beliefs, as religious beliefs by definition are excessive.

JoeyT

(6,785 posts)
237. Actually the way I take it,
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 10:49 PM
Mar 2014

and the way it's actually meant to be taken, if the refusal to allow anyone else to put up any kind of representations of other religions is any indication, is that only the Christian victims mattered. Everyone else was just roadkill.

What else can someone possibly take from it? We're going to memorialize the victims of a tragedy, but with a symbol specific to one religion, and every other religion can get bent. How else can you read that?

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
306. As a Christian you saw it as a symbol of "we will prevail"
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 02:52 PM
Mar 2014

Can you see that for many, now at this point of memorial-making, it seems more a symbol of "Christians will prevail." (?)

I think the pools speak to us all. But the cross installation was not well thought out. It should be a part of the memorial but not selected as a shrine totem.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
43. LOL, yes. BECAUSE it is a cross. Not because it is debris.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:45 AM
Mar 2014

Does the contradiction have to be spelled out more clearly?

Response to Bonobo (Reply #43)

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
44. A symbol?
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:45 AM
Mar 2014

That just ~happens~ to be in the shape of a remarkably cruel instrument of agonizing and prolonged death?

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
52. And of course the rest of those New Yorkers don't count anyway..
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:50 AM
Mar 2014
http://www.atheists.org/legal/current/september-11-memorial?

In 2002, the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation was established, with a $10 billion grant from the US government, to rebuild downtown Manhattan. Soon thereafter, the World Trade Center Memorial Foundation (WTCMF) was established to begin designing a permanent memorial for those that died in the 9/11 attacks.

At about that same time, various groups began lobbying the WTCMF to include the girder cross in the final design of the 9/11 Memorial & Museum. American Atheists spoke out against that suggestion, making numerous appearances to civic and governmental groups as well as on national media denouncing the suggestion as a blatant violation of the First Amendment and exclusionary to non-Christian Americans. It also offered to provide its own memorial artifact to be set next to the girder cross to honor all other Americans who died in the 9/11 attacks. American Atheists never received any response to its complaints or its offer of an additional memorial artifact.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
58. As long as they are "good" atheists..
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:55 AM
Mar 2014

ie: Invisible and noiseless.

It turns out that the OP is actually a lie by omission, the fact that an additional memorial was offered was not mentioned in the OP.

All this outrage over a lie.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
60. Yes I object. This piece of debris is a part of the story.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:55 AM
Mar 2014

I personally have seen and touched on many times. Sorry but it belongs in the museum.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
197. The Arizona is debris. There have been quite a few religious services on this government property.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 03:59 PM
Mar 2014

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
264. Arizona is hallowed ground. No more violative of the 1st
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 05:42 PM
Mar 2014

Amendment to have memorial services there than at Arlington.

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
270. Yep and there have been dozens if not more
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 06:11 PM
Mar 2014

religious ceremonies of one type or another at WTC since 9/11. But what we're talking about here is displaying the symbol of ONE religious group to the exclusion of all others on PUBIC property - clearly an unconstitutional act violating separation of church and state.

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
272. Interesting idea but as a legal argument
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 06:27 PM
Mar 2014

it doesn't work. Sorry. There is clear precedent from the USSCt that the Roman cross is the unequivocal item which symbolizes to the viewer the Christian faith. The government is not allowed to promote one religion to the exclusion of others. The solution is therefore a) have symbols of other religions displayed next to the cross (which is, of course what it is), b) remove the cross displayed on public property or c) display the cross on private property. Nothing hard about that.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
273. That's the argument of the District Court.
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 06:32 PM
Mar 2014

That was also a line of questions from the Second Circuit panel Thursday.

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
300. What is that supposed to mean?
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:22 AM
Mar 2014

If you need an artifact of a human reaction a good b/w photo of people praying around it after 9/11 would do the job a lot better.

Silent3

(15,018 posts)
33. "...and had the 17-foot-tall, 4,000-pound cross cut from it"
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:41 AM
Mar 2014

It started as debris, but then it was deliberately fashioned into a religious item.

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
37. That maybe true but it is debris. It is also a part of the story here in NY and should be a part
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:42 AM
Mar 2014

of the musuem.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
69. Incredible (accidental?) symmetry!
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:02 AM
Mar 2014

I suppose if one of the arms had been longer than the other, it would be okay to cut it off to the "proper" size.

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
74. Do me a favor and answer this question:
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:06 AM
Mar 2014

If someone were to suggest a Star of David be put up (excuse me, accidentally cut out) to commemorate the 9/11 victims...

Would ANYONE think that was reasonable?

 

hrmjustin

(71,265 posts)
75. I personally would think it fine.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:07 AM
Mar 2014

As I am for the plaque that says non-believers died here that the AA group wants.

 

rug

(82,333 posts)
247. I don't think you'll win the argument that atheists as a group suffered equally in rhe Holocaust.
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 06:44 AM
Mar 2014

There were no yellow atom badges.

LostOne4Ever

(9,267 posts)
259. Was not talking about atheists
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 02:10 PM
Mar 2014

Rather some of the other groups like the homosexuals, gypsies, disabled, etc that were also systematically killed. Without that, it can be seen as a religious display.

Again, it was a bad choice of battles as it is all too easy to make it look like they are insensitive in that case. Sadly, this whole WTC thing has the same problem. That is why I originally felt this was a bad choice of battles in the religion forum, then I learned that what they really wanted was to put up a plaque to the nonbelievers who died, one they are willing to pay for...

I feel that is worth fighting this PR nightmare for.

Silent3

(15,018 posts)
216. So if someone had turned 9/11 debris into a giant dildo, you'd still be saying...
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 06:59 PM
Mar 2014

"true, but it is debris", as if the the form the debris has been converted into hasn't the slightest thing to do with the issue?

The debris isn't sacred, you know. Most of the debris was thrown away or recycled.

LostOne4Ever

(9,267 posts)
23. Could someone tell me what is so wrong with including a plaque
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:29 AM
Mar 2014

Who would it hurt?

Maybe your worried about the money it would cost? Its not like a plaque requires a lot of money...ESPECIALLY SINCE THE AA IS OFFERING TO PAY FOR IT!!!

One group, who was hurt by the attack the same as everyone else, wants the cross ON PUBLIC LAND taken down OR TO LET THEM PUT UP THEIR OWN MEMORIAL WITH THEIR OWN MONEY; and the other is arguing for their symbol to remain up at the exclusion of everyone elses.

OBVIOUSLY AA are the bad guys here.



So much for inclusiveness and tolerance being liberal values.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
27. Now that puts things in a different light indeed..
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:35 AM
Mar 2014
http://www.atheists.org/legal/current/september-11-memorial?

In 2002, the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation was established, with a $10 billion grant from the US government, to rebuild downtown Manhattan. Soon thereafter, the World Trade Center Memorial Foundation (WTCMF) was established to begin designing a permanent memorial for those that died in the 9/11 attacks.

At about that same time, various groups began lobbying the WTCMF to include the girder cross in the final design of the 9/11 Memorial & Museum. American Atheists spoke out against that suggestion, making numerous appearances to civic and governmental groups as well as on national media denouncing the suggestion as a blatant violation of the First Amendment and exclusionary to non-Christian Americans. It also offered to provide its own memorial artifact to be set next to the girder cross to honor all other Americans who died in the 9/11 attacks. American Atheists never received any response to its complaints or its offer of an additional memorial artifact.

LostOne4Ever

(9,267 posts)
35. Yeah but WE ARE THE BAD GUYS HERE
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:41 AM
Mar 2014

Just because we want our dead to be acknowledged too.

The way the AA and us atheists are getting presented here is beyond disgusting. When I first heard about this, I was mad at AA for picking a battle that makes us look like jerks. But then I learned that the AA made that offer, I have just become more and more incensed.

The way we are getting presented is PURE BULLSHIT!

 

skepticscott

(13,029 posts)
96. In fact, it doesn't even put things in a "different" light
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 09:02 AM
Mar 2014

Really, it puts things in the same light they've been all along, but which shallow people with persecution paranoia who would rather call someone a "jackass atheist zealot" for doing this, can't be bothered to find out.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
136. Nope, it's only the Christians who matter.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:07 PM
Mar 2014

The rest of us are in their damn way and they will steamroll over us to shove the religion down our throats at every turn. It's that way because they are the poor, oppressed, majority and we are the bad guys for not bowing down to them. It's not about their God. They want us to bow down to THEM. That's what it really is all about, nothing more, nothing less.

Luminous Animal

(27,310 posts)
41. So. All 3000 who died were Christians? No. Just who are we honoring here? Only the Christians who
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:45 AM
Mar 2014

died? And if so, Why?

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
49. Because everyone else is going to Hell of course
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:48 AM
Mar 2014

Why would we honor people who are obviously evil since they are going to Hell?

liberal_at_heart

(12,081 posts)
53. I think it is really sad how some Christians are incapable of seeing the world through anything
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:51 AM
Mar 2014

other than their own experience. Keep the cross and put up the atheist plaque. It's simple. Why the hell do people try to make things so damn difficult?

Bonobo

(29,257 posts)
59. If someone were to suggest a Star of David be put up to commemorate the 9/11 victims...
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:55 AM
Mar 2014

Would ANYONE think that was reasonable?

Hell, not even Jews would think it was reasonable?

I guess being the militarily dominant religion for the last 500 years tends to give you a swelled head.

What is funny is that some of the people advocating for it seem to understand the concept of white male privilege. Is this so different?

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
65. It's completely different
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:58 AM
Mar 2014

White males are the patriarchy and evil.

Christians are good and holy.

What is wrong with you that you cannot see this undeniable fact?

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
71. Wiccans, Sikhs, there might even have been a Shinto or a Jain or two
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:03 AM
Mar 2014

I think they should put up a Pentacle, that should really steam the Christians.

And a big question mark for the agnostics..

tritsofme

(17,322 posts)
132. Take something that is meaningful to people, and scrap it for what?
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:02 PM
Mar 2014

A few hundred bucks at most? Any other reason than just to be a jerk?

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
142. Because the damn thing is ugly, for starters.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:12 PM
Mar 2014

At least damn paint it or something. It's absolutely ugly and just keeps the horror of that day in people's minds. You want a Patriot Act Part 50 in about 50 years? Keep your rusty old jagged ugly ass cross from that day and keep shoving it down everyone else's throats. No one else but Christians were killed on that day, right? The rest of us don't matter, right? We get the message loud and clear. You don't even need to answer.

tritsofme

(17,322 posts)
190. lol, right...how absurd to have a symbol of the tragedy at a museum commemorating it.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 03:31 PM
Mar 2014

How a single exhibit that is important to some people can be viewed with such venom is beyond me.

The persecution complex here is as ridiculous as the fundies who drone on about a "War on Christmas."

The exhibit is not exclusionary, it does not appear to be the focal point of the institution, but it is a piece of what happened that day, and the desire to erase it from history is just downright bizarre.

LostOne4Ever

(9,267 posts)
198. The desire to ignore that AA simply wants to put a plaque there
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 04:00 PM
Mar 2014

honoring the non-believers who died and instead try to make it look like the AA wants to erase history is even more bizarre.

tritsofme

(17,322 posts)
201. I started replying to the person who proposed sending it to the scrapper, literally erasing it.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 04:08 PM
Mar 2014

If what you say is the case, I agree, there is no good reason for them to be denied a plaque.

 

Demo_Chris

(6,234 posts)
244. It is a symbol of hate -- the same type of bronze age delusional that inspired the hijackers....
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 03:26 AM
Mar 2014

To me it's the equivalent of erecting a gun shaped monument at the site of a school shooting, then claiming it's okay because the school shooter used a Colt and monument looks like a Smith and Wesson.

liberalmuse

(18,670 posts)
88. Never, never...
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:36 AM
Mar 2014

get into an argument with people who have a persecution complex. You're just playing right into their delusions and they'll cling to that debris "cross" even harder. Logic is not a useful tool against delusion. Compromise is meaningless to people who believe it's all about "ME".

MellowDem

(5,018 posts)
95. What a shitty article upholding Christian privilege...
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 08:59 AM
Mar 2014

The "cross" doesn't represent many who died there and was only made into a symbol by Christians. It's not a "clear-cut" part of the story, it's a "clear-cut" part of the usual irrational logic that finds religious symbolism in anything and everything, as long as it backs one's own religion of course.

Given irrational religious beliefs were a large part of what caused 9/11, this religious symbol is just a slap in the face to all non-Christians by reminding people, with a nice torture device no less, the privilege religion, especially Christianity, has in our society.

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
160. No, it is fitting.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:55 PM
Mar 2014

The biggest symbol used by those to justify their greed, hate, and intolerance.

Absolutely fitting.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,272 posts)
99. So some world trade worker comes up with his version of Jesus-burnt-toast or water-stain-Jesus....
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 09:24 AM
Mar 2014

.... and everyone else should pay heed less the religiously delusional will throw a grand mal hissy fit. But the atheists are unreasonable.

Just another examples of liars for Jesus and fuck yous for Jesus. We even see the intellectually dishonest double talk BS in this very thread.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
105. It wasn't even that good
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 09:44 AM
Mar 2014

The worker found an intersection of two beams and deliberately cut it into a cross. It would be more like someone fashioning a Jesus stencil and mass producing Jesus toast.

edhopper

(33,205 posts)
100. read the article people
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 09:31 AM
Mar 2014

The beam was pulled from the wreakage and CUT INTO A CROSS! It was manufactured, not some miracle find. It was a symbol to many, including GWB, that this was a Muslim attack on a Christian Country.
It is the wrong message for this tragedy.
Keep it the fuck out.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
145. Nope they want to shove it down our throats, because it gave them comfort.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:14 PM
Mar 2014

To Hell with the rest of us.

amuse bouche

(3,657 posts)
303. "The beam was pulled from the wreakage and CUT INTO A CROSS!"
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 01:45 PM
Mar 2014

"It was manufactured"--Just like religion. All made up BS.

How pathetic that so many fight for this garbage. Stupid doesn't begin to describe

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
108. Let's not be ingenuous. This artifact
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 10:05 AM
Mar 2014

was deliberately formed, cut from debris into the shape of a Christian cross, the only reason for which it is being displayed. It may well have given comfort to some Christians but as a Christian symbol on public property it violates the First Amendment separation of church and state.

John1956PA

(2,654 posts)
152. Agreed. The discovered girder crosspiece was snipped to the proportions of the Xtian cross.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:30 PM
Mar 2014

For the sake of accuracy, a placard should be installed next to the item to express that fact.

 

Vashta Nerada

(3,922 posts)
113. There's nothing misguided about that at all.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 12:06 PM
Mar 2014

The religious nutcases don't need their symbolism in all areas of the country, especially at a public memorial.

MNBrewer

(8,462 posts)
115. Mary Elizabeth Williams is one of Salon's stable of anti-atheism/pro-Catholicism writers
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 12:11 PM
Mar 2014

She does this ALL THE TIME!!

 

Bluenorthwest

(45,319 posts)
116. Does it stand to signify the Crusade Bush undertook in response to this attack
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 12:12 PM
Mar 2014

which was also religiously motivated?

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
146. In reality, yes.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:17 PM
Mar 2014

They think we are stupid and cannot see that. That "cross" was deliberately cut from the wreckage. It wasn't formed magically. They cut it into the shape of a cross and want to put it up just to shove their religion down our throats even more. That religion, to me, will always signify rape, physically, mentally, emotionally, AND spiritually.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
120. If it is on public property, it is in fact illegal.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 12:21 PM
Mar 2014

If it's privater property, then it doesn't matter.

But if it's public property, it needs to be removed.

Christians love shoving their religion down everyone's throat.

 

Chan790

(20,176 posts)
121. I favor its removal.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 12:22 PM
Mar 2014

It's construction debris. It should have been disposed of with the rest of the debris.

Send it to the smelter.

NYC Liberal

(20,132 posts)
122. The "cross" is not "part of what happened". It was manufactured. After the fact.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 12:29 PM
Mar 2014

Had it been pulled out of the wreckage like that, well that'd be one thing. But it wasn't.

DinahMoeHum

(21,737 posts)
165. Agreed. I'd give the sculpture to a church in the area affected by 9/11.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:11 PM
Mar 2014

If they want to keep it in the museum, I have no problem, as long as they have all other religious symbols displayed as well. Otherwise, no dice.

Jamastiene

(38,187 posts)
130. I still wish the atheists could win more often.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 12:54 PM
Mar 2014

Then again, I live in the Bible Belt where you can't walk two paces without bumping into another church and Christianity, the only religion allowed in my home county, the most hateful kind of Christianity, is in your face day in and day out. I would love to move to a town that was less zealous and pompous. I do wish these zillions of churches around here would quit coming up with anti-gay comments for their signs and pick up some of the damn trash that is making the county look horrible, or, I don't know, bother to feed some poor people or build a shelter that allows homeless women in it? The current homeless shelter here does not allow women or children, only men. Christianity truly sucks.

I wish the atheists could start winning more of these legal fights. It is getting overly ridiculous at this point. Can't even order a goddamn guitar capo on Ebay without getting Christian crap in the package with it, disguised as guitar tips. I shit you not.

I'm so glad I'm going to Hell when I die. Eternity away from these assholes to make up for a lifetime stuck with them. I long for Hell, because it will be full of nothing but gay people. Everything else is fine and dandy now, just don't be gay. Hell is going to be the good place to go for eternity. Heaven? Not so much. I don't see how any place full of the assholes that live around me can be called even remotely close to something called Heaven.

GreenEyedLefty

(2,073 posts)
180. Best post. Ever.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:54 PM
Mar 2014

As Mark Twain said (paraphrasing), "Go to heaven for the climate, hell for the company."

 

seveneyes

(4,631 posts)
138. Both the holy rollers and the faithiests need to chill out
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:09 PM
Mar 2014

Atheists react with such a religious fervor, it's hard to tell them apart from the extreme evangelical religious side.

Both have their own dogma crosses to wave around.

 

seveneyes

(4,631 posts)
183. Well I did mean it as Faith + Atheist
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 03:00 PM
Mar 2014

Well I did mean it as Faith + Atheist. As in the Atheist have too much Faith that their way is THE way.

I may not be superior, but both groups and their dogma annoy me about the same.

 

phil89

(1,043 posts)
283. Atheism has no dogma
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 09:26 PM
Mar 2014

it is the rejection of a claim of a god or gods. Faith is not required to be an atheist.

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
148. Salon's on a roll with these irrational polemics lately.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:20 PM
Mar 2014

Have to assume this and the "White ladies shouldn't belly dance" piece were in part calculated to draw attention more than to illuminate any worthwhile ideas.

Lot of disingenuous nonsense going on here. It's well established that Christian groups like to argue that crosses and Jesus-i appear magically at scenes of horror or natural disaster. Hand of God in the volcano cloud. Mother Mary in the desiccated corpses of love bugs. Okay to embrace your personal mythology of course, but at least be clear most people view it as nonsense. God is not sending images of ancient Roman torture devices into blown-up buildings to send us signs of hope.

A hacked-up chunk of a building artificially configured to look exactly like a religious symbol is okay as art, but it's bad art. Anything can be cut into a "cross." So it's not just lamely easy, but also reprehensibly suggestive that 9/11 is rightly viewed as some kind of Christian vs. Muslims event, which is the precise kind of insane thinking that made people think they were justified in doing such a thing in the first place.

 

dballance

(5,756 posts)
156. I'm a fervent atheist, but I believe this is the wrong fight.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:36 PM
Mar 2014

The cross was put up, at the time, by people who were grieving the disaster. To me, it's just part of history now. I really don't see it as the state trying to promote one religion over another.

That said, had George W. Bush helped them erect the cross and said a prayer over it I probably would have a different opinion.

LostOne4Ever

(9,267 posts)
157. So you support AA in
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:40 PM
Mar 2014

putting up a plaque next to it honoring the atheists who died there that day too?

One that the AA themselves has offered to pay for?

 

dballance

(5,756 posts)
163. I would certainly support other religions/non-religions honoring their dead. However,
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:06 PM
Mar 2014

I don't, for a moment, believe the people erecting the cross had any such intentions of just honoring Christians. I choose to believe the person that put it up had the purest of motives to honor all dead, not just Christian dead. It's too bad a Star of David and Crescent Star were not erected alongside the Cross.

From my purely anecdotal personal observations it seems to me that the Jewish people and Muslim people are a bit more private and less likely to erect their symbology outside holy places, Temples, Mosques and Synagogues. Now, that is purely, purely my personal observation. I am not stating it as fact and anyone is welcome to disagree with me.

LostOne4Ever

(9,267 posts)
166. I get and respect that
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:20 PM
Mar 2014

But the part of the story the article is glossing over is that the AA would have happily moved on if they would have been able to add their plaque.

I thought this fight was not worth it either, but upon learning that the fight was actually over the AA getting to put up their own memorial with their own money I changed my mind. That combined with the way this story is being framed as "Evil mean atheists want to remove religious symbol of hope" rather than "Atheists want to erect a memorial to honor their dead from 9/11" infuriates me.

Im not disagreeing with you. I just want to point out the fact that the AA simply wants to put up their own plaque as I feel that is an important part of the story that is being omitted.

Walk away

(9,494 posts)
159. My town held a big Jesus festival in the park after 9/11...
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 01:54 PM
Mar 2014

it was held on the evening of a Jewish high holy day so no pesky Jews. Everyone else had to suffer through several "Christians are so great. Why does everyone hate us?" rants and then lots of christian blessings. I walked out disgusted. It just confirmed my guess as to part of the reason the towers were blown up in the first place.

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
171. I have never in my life heard a Christian claim that "Christians are so great".
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:28 PM
Mar 2014

So your claim that there were several "Christians are so great" "rants" at a 9/11 memorial event makes me a little bit skeptical, to say the least.

Walk away

(9,494 posts)
186. It happened in Rutherford NJ and it's one of the reasons...
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 03:22 PM
Mar 2014

I sold my house and moved to another town. You can suspect anything you like but you are wrong.

To hold an event with not stop Jesus worship instead of an inclusive memorial for 9/11 in a town park for the general public and on my tax dollar, is disgusting. And that is in Blue NJ. I SUSPECT that it happened in many other places.

It funny to me that you saved your skepticism for an event described by an eye witness.

Ohio Joe

(21,656 posts)
161. Yeah... How dare those lousy atheists want to propagate reason
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:00 PM
Mar 2014

There is a specific fantasy that has to be promoted!

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
172. What are these atheists so worried about?
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:31 PM
Mar 2014

I can see that something like forced prayer in public schools is worth fighting against, because impressionable children should not be indoctrinated into one particular religion. But in this case, are they worried that people are going to see this cross-shaped item in the memorial museum and think "wow! Christianity is so great, let me sign up for that ASAP"?

stopbush

(24,376 posts)
175. When you can present a Constitutional argument, we'll talk.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:38 PM
Mar 2014

In the meanwhile, you're playing "blame the victim."

Why you can't see that is anyone's guess.

Major Nikon

(36,814 posts)
178. The ACLU often defends white supremacists
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:50 PM
Mar 2014

Do you think they shouldn't do so simply because there's no direct impact to you?

The idea of separation of church and state means no tax dollars should be used to promote any religion. Those who believe in that principle strongly enough are willing to take a stand at every instance regardless of the impact. Simply saying 'it's not a big deal so fuck it', is a never ending proposition because those who seek to promote religion will always be pushing those boundaries.

Your same argument makes more sense to apply to the religionists who are promoting this. If it's no big deal why are they pushing so hard for it in the first place? I'm sure there are a number of private religious organizations who would be glad to display it on their own property.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
181. They want a more inclusive monument
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:56 PM
Mar 2014

That was the part left out of your OP, the group offered to pay for a plaque that would represent the non-Christians killed on 9/11 to be placed by or near the cross but never could even get a reply to their concerns.

The Christian cross does not represent all Americans.

 

phil89

(1,043 posts)
284. It helps make the irrational beliefs behind religion seem ok when they're really not.
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 09:28 PM
Mar 2014

Time to move beyond the nonsense.

MineralMan

(146,192 posts)
182. As a long-time atheist, I'm of two minds regarding this.
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 02:56 PM
Mar 2014

In one of those minds, I don't care what religions people believe in, and if this thing gives them some comfort, then it's not a problem for me.

In the other mind, I'm troubled that only the Christian symbol is in evidence, despite the diversity of belief and disbelief held by those who died in those buildings. Some were Christians, no doubt, even a majority, perhaps. But not all were, by any means. All major religions were represented by people who died. Non-religious people, too, died. Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and more all were among those who died.

The reality of this monument is that it is more for those who didn't die than for those who did. The United States has a majority of people who believe in one form of Christianity or another. That majority has decided that only Christianity should be represented in this memorial sculpture. Of course there are cross forms in the framework of those buildings. Hundreds of them. This one was cut from the debris, with the parts that did not look like a Christian cross removed, leaving only the symbol.

It is the insularity of this cross that disturbs me. It is there. It is the only religious representation that is there. Yet, people of many religions and of no religion at all died on 9/11. That means that the cross isn't a representation of the religious beliefs of those who died. Instead, it is a representation of only the majority religion of the United States. That's wrong.

It was the World Trade Center, not the Christian USA Center. No single religious symbol can represent those who died. In fact, if only a single symbol appears, it dishonors those who are not Christian and, in doing so, dishonors the sentiment it is supposed to express.

For that reason, I oppose having only a single religious symbol on display. It's unfair to those who do not see a cross as a symbol of peace. It is unfair to those who see all religion as a symbol of prejudice and inequality. I believe that they should either represent all religions in a memorial or none at all.

Where is the six-pointed star, or the star and crescent? Where are the symbols of Hinduism or Buddhism? Where is a symbol of disbelief? If they are not there, the symbol of Christianity should not be there, either.

The Christian deity did not protect those in the building, nor did any other deity. Why is a religious symbol appropriate as a memorial symbol in any way?

amuse bouche

(3,657 posts)
189. I vehemently disagree
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 03:27 PM
Mar 2014

Religious BS must be fought at every step

Don't forget..Religious terrorists are the ones responsible for 9/11

The denomination matters not. They all preach hatred and discrimination of 'others'

Beartracks

(12,761 posts)
208. If the cross was of significant meaning for Christian rescuers at the site....
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 05:18 PM
Mar 2014

... who were there to assist with efforts for ALL victims.... then so be it.

I think a lot will depend on how the cross is being "interpreted" at the museum. That is, does it "honor" the Christian dead, or does it "honor" the Christians who helped in the aftermath and took this token beam and fashioned it into a symbol of their faith while they worked? The thing is pretty big and was visually prominent at the site, so pretending it never existed isn't a realistic way to document and remember the event.

=======================

goldent

(1,582 posts)
215. I'm not sure the cross is meant to "honor" anyone
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 06:55 PM
Mar 2014

There are a lot of artifacts in the museum, both historically significant objects and mundane but poignant items of everyday life. These artifacts tell the story of 9/11, its aftermath, and the effect it had on us. The cross is just a tiny part of the story about peoples reactions in the days that followed.

starroute

(12,977 posts)
231. A two-ton memorial is not "tiny"
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 09:26 PM
Mar 2014

If it was, say, 18 inches tall and could be put in a display case along with other artifacts, that might be proportionate. But this thing is huge and intimidating, and that's part of the problem.

Fumesucker

(45,851 posts)
222. Every one of the rescue workers were Christians?
Sat Mar 8, 2014, 08:21 PM
Mar 2014

I suppose it's possible but it seems rather unlikely.

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
262. The cross doesn't "do" anything. It's an inert piece
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 05:36 PM
Mar 2014

of metal fashioned into 2 beams joined at a 90 degree angle. What it represents is the unique symbol of the Christian faith. There is no possible confusion on that matter. So the only question is whether it's constitutionally permissible to erect a symbol of Christian faith on public property. I suggest the answer is No.

Beartracks

(12,761 posts)
275. Simply including the cross at a public museum wouldn't be promoting a religion...
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 07:01 PM
Mar 2014

.. but just documenting the history of the event and its aftermath.

I would take issue if the cross was the centerpiece of all the displays, making the place look like a Christian museum -- like putting it outside the front door or in a special place of honor within the layout of the museum property. If it was JUST metal beams it could take center stage, but BECAUSE it's been made into a religious symbol it needs to be treated.... secularly -- a secular acknowledgment of its role in the ways that some rescuers dealt with the aftermath. Its importance even in that respect is only because it was so prominent at the site that everyone could see it.

================

COLGATE4

(14,732 posts)
298. First of all, displaying it in a museum - public or private
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:20 AM
Mar 2014

would not be a contravention of the separation of church and state. Here the problem is that it is not displayed in a museum but rather in a place designed to attract the most attention from people before they ever enter the museum. Much like placing the 10 Commandments on the Courthouse lawn. Nothing secular about that.

Beartracks

(12,761 posts)
311. OK, I must admit I don't know where or how it is being displayed.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 10:13 PM
Mar 2014

Up until now, I thought the lawsuit was to PREVENT its installation -- I didn't realize it was already installed.

I'm finding lots of pictures of where it was sitting prior to being lowered into the underground museum, but what's the context IN the museum? You indicate it's outside the entrance, but it's underground from what I've read. Is it still some kind of centerpiece down there?

================

Response to Nye Bevan (Original post)

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
294. If we didn't have the religious fundies
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 08:53 AM
Mar 2014

attempting to turn America into the Republic of Gilead, I'd agree with you.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
295. This has nothing to do with religious fundies
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 08:59 AM
Mar 2014

if it did I would also oppose it. This is a relatively benign issue involving an object imbedded into the nation's consciousness due to 911.

marions ghost

(19,841 posts)
296. It has everything to do with Fundyism
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 09:40 AM
Mar 2014

--the selection of this widely labeled "miracle cross" as the lasting symbol of the tragedy makes it into a cultural icon. (I have no problem with the cross as concept, as inspiration for people who benefit from it). What they have done here is create a permanent religious shrine in a public space that should have expressed unity of all people, not religious preference. To see it in any other way is IMO, not understanding the true meaning of division of church and state.

With this installation we are getting into fundamentalist territory. There is nothing particularly miraculous about steel girders forming crosses. Unless you believe that Our Lady of the Underpass is a sacred site. And that 10 Commandments sculptures should appear in front of municipal government offices.

cvoogt

(949 posts)
243. I think I vaguely understand
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 01:01 AM
Mar 2014

why this particular cross means so much to so many. It was a small positive story in the middle of a catastrophe

But ... it's a random piece of wreckage, and ridiculous to see it as anything more (I think). That said, I see no issue with it being on government property, especially because so many apparently find comfort in it. Doesn't bother me in the least. I'm glad it's there, but it means nothing to me.

DustyJoe

(849 posts)
251. FFS
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 08:10 AM
Mar 2014

Somebody just put a copy of the 'Piss Christ" crucifix alongside it to settle all the angst some people have over a monuments shape already.

mike_c

(36,214 posts)
277. I'm sick of being surrounded by people's superstitious symbolism....
Sun Mar 9, 2014, 08:11 PM
Mar 2014

Hang it in someone's home, if they feel strongly enough about it. Or in a church. But not in a public space.

edhopper

(33,205 posts)
312. The same people out there who are up in arms about the opposition to this religious symbol
Wed Mar 12, 2014, 10:12 AM
Mar 2014

are the same people who were screaming about a Muslim Center anywhere near the WTC.
But it's not about co-opting this into a Christian thing, is it?

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