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flamin lib

(14,559 posts)
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:01 AM Mar 2014

Has anyone pointed out that Crimea is the only warm water port

Available to Russia and as such is of vital national interest to them? Not saying I support Putin's military intervention, just pointing out what should be obvious.

I can't think of an equivalent situation for the US except perhaps the Panama Canal but I'm willing to bet that if it were in an unstable situation we would be all up in their business.

Again, not condoning Russia's military intervention but I'm just saying' . . .

19 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Has anyone pointed out that Crimea is the only warm water port (Original Post) flamin lib Mar 2014 OP
With war in Syria, Crimea is their only remaining option. DetlefK Mar 2014 #1
Shhhhhhhhhh! malaise Mar 2014 #2
Wait....you support the Russian invasion of Crimea? Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #7
I don't support any invasion malaise Mar 2014 #17
So if you were Putin, you'd react the same way and invade Crimea..... Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #19
That was an excellent article Autumn Mar 2014 #10
Of course that's China's POV. Igel Mar 2014 #15
The Russians have other ports on the Black Sea. Jenoch Mar 2014 #3
It wasn't under threat or contention. No one blocked it or suggested TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #4
Isn't there a Port of Sochi? Tommy_Carcetti Mar 2014 #5
+ bobsledding underpants Mar 2014 #8
I'm sure they want Odessa, too frazzled Mar 2014 #6
Give global warming and climate change some time others will emerge. gordianot Mar 2014 #9
Yes, many times...let me point out annexing Crimea isn't required HereSince1628 Mar 2014 #11
Why isn't the larger context equally the West's desire malaise Mar 2014 #12
In this case, cost. riqster Mar 2014 #13
I think it is. But differently, Gates suggests going back to a gas pipeline through Turkey HereSince1628 Mar 2014 #14
Perhaps. Igel Mar 2014 #16
Yes. I have and others have as well. Savannahmann Mar 2014 #18

malaise

(267,805 posts)
2. Shhhhhhhhhh!
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:07 AM
Mar 2014

Look the West are 'effing crazy if they think Russia will back down on this.
They won't and I agree with them.
I read the Chinese take on matters this morning - very interesting

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/10/ukraine-crisis-chinese-president-xi-jinping-urges-us-to-show-restraint
<snip>
Chinese president Xi Jinping has urged a political solution to the crisis in Ukraine and for all parties to exercise calm and restraint, during separate telephone calls with US president Barack Obama and German chancellor Angela Merkel.

“The situation in Ukraine is extremely complex, and what is most urgent is for all sides to remain calm and exercise restraint to avoid an escalation in tensions,” China’s foreign ministry on Monday cited Xi as telling Obama.

“Political and diplomatic routes must be used to resolve the crisis,” Xi added.

China has an “open attitude” towards any suggestions or proposals which can ameliorate the situation, and is willing to remain in touch with all parties including the United States, he said.

Xi told Merkel that the Ukraine situation is “highly sensitive” and needs to be weighed carefully, according to a separate Chinese statement.

malaise

(267,805 posts)
17. I don't support any invasion
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 03:15 PM
Mar 2014

but given the West's aggression this past decade, if I were Putin I'd react the same way.

 

Cali_Democrat

(30,439 posts)
19. So if you were Putin, you'd react the same way and invade Crimea.....
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 03:55 PM
Mar 2014

So you agree with his invasion of Crimea....

Igel

(35,191 posts)
15. Of course that's China's POV.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:06 PM
Mar 2014

They'd probably be keen on having the PRC Army in Taiwan with a similar vote on "rejoining" China, and would object to anybody else's intervening.

At the same time, they dislike the idea of protests and popular movements of any kind. In the US we argue about the idea of a "unitary executive." They insist on a "unitary authority," where all authority comes from the government and protests are to be either complimentary or at the very least closely supervised (and poorly reported on).

 

Jenoch

(7,720 posts)
3. The Russians have other ports on the Black Sea.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:09 AM
Mar 2014

They're sort of attached to Crimea because they have had a naval port there since the time of Catherine the Great.

TwilightGardener

(46,416 posts)
4. It wasn't under threat or contention. No one blocked it or suggested
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:09 AM
Mar 2014

Russia wouldn't have access to it. The temporary Ukraine government just wanted to join the EU--I don't believe they threatened Russia's interests in any way. In fact, Crimea could have been negotiated back to Russia peacefully.

frazzled

(18,402 posts)
6. I'm sure they want Odessa, too
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:10 AM
Mar 2014

They used to have it, back in the days of the Empire, when it was Russia's largest grain-exporting port, and then again as an SSR after WWII

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
11. Yes, many times...let me point out annexing Crimea isn't required
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:36 AM
Mar 2014

to have a naval base. Such facilities can be leased or purchased.

Setting those methods aside Russia does have coastline east of Crimea.

The larger context is Putin's desire to construct a Russian dominated economic sphere.

If Ukraine won't come into it voluntarily, Putin will destabilize Ukraine and pick from the broken parts most economically valuable pieces.

IOW Putin is motivated rather similarly to pirate capitalist Mitt Romney




malaise

(267,805 posts)
12. Why isn't the larger context equally the West's desire
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:42 AM
Mar 2014

to construct their dominated economic sphere?

riqster

(13,986 posts)
13. In this case, cost.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 11:51 AM
Mar 2014

Annexing Crimea can, at a relatively low cost, allow Russia to further its already-impressive dominance of the European natural gas market.

The West has no such existing economic or infrastructural assets to likewise exploit in such a cost-effective manner: in that geography, at least.

HereSince1628

(36,063 posts)
14. I think it is. But differently, Gates suggests going back to a gas pipeline through Turkey
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:01 PM
Mar 2014

for new gas from Iraq, Iran, and letting the Russians destabilize Ukraine.

In the end, western Europe is going to get Russian gas. Using the crisis puts back on the table the trans-anitolian pipeline that BP put the kabosh on last summer.

In the end Europe gets alternatives to reduce Russian energy control and it avoids wasting a lot of money on a conflict that the west knows it isn't in a position to win.



Igel

(35,191 posts)
16. Perhaps.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 12:19 PM
Mar 2014

But that requires taking the scraps of what might be evidence and weaving them into a narrative in which the Ukrainians have no will of their own but are only puppets and pawns.

The Russian speakers can't make their own decisions. The Crimeans can't make their own decisions. Neither can the Ukrainian-speakers or ethnic Ukrainians.

It saves time--no need to engage in thinking and trying to understand others.

The Ukrainians don't care about the larger context. They have their own interests. As do the Crimeans. If this were really about the US, we'd have had troops in the Crimea before the Russians did. Notice that at this point we still don't have troops even in Lviv.

But we do have people, faced with controlled press, a broad-based media campaign by the government that allows no opposing media coverage, foreign troops in the street, arresting of dissidents, foreign interference in campaigning, and confiscation of the IDs needed for voting by unreliable elements, all happening just before an election that will be billed by those people as "free" and "fair" and "reflecting the will of the people." Either because they dislike some members of the Ukrainian government and figure that "that'll show them" or because they like the Russian government (probably, I guess, because that'll show US ... us?).

 

Savannahmann

(3,891 posts)
18. Yes. I have and others have as well.
Mon Mar 10, 2014, 03:23 PM
Mar 2014

We were told that we did not accurately understand that this entire mess was about Oil.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024591839

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4631004

So yes, we have been discussing it, and yes many have pointed out that the region is of vital strategic interest to Russia.

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