Engine Data Suggests Missing Airplane Flew On for Hours After Radar Disappearance

[Cali_Democrat]

This is interesting. Apparently the engines send bursts of data to the ground as part of a routine maintenance and monitoring program. The data suggests the plane could have flown on for hours after it disappeared from radar.

Missing Airplane Flew On for Hours
By Andy Pasztor
Updated March 13, 2014 12:50 a.m. ET

U.S. investigators suspect that Malaysia Airlines Flight 370 stayed in the air for about four hours past the time it reached its last confirmed location, according to two people familiar with the details, raising the possibility that the plane could have flown on for hundreds of additional miles under conditions that remain murky.

Aviation investigators and national security officials believe the plane flew for a total of five hours based on data automatically downloaded and sent to the ground from the Boeing Co. 777's engines as part of a routine maintenance and monitoring program.


U.S. counterterrorism officials are pursuing the possibility that a pilot or someone else on board the plane may have diverted it toward an undisclosed location after intentionally turning off the jetliner's transponders to avoid radar detection, according to one person tracking the probe.

http://online.wsj.com/news/article_email/SB10001424052702304914904579434653903086282-lMyQjAxMTA0MDEwMzExNDMyWj

[MannyGoldstein]

1. A grand kidnapping?

[PSPS]

2. This is the ACARS data. The plane could have reached India.

[2naSalit]

6. Or someplace like

Yemen or the Arabian peninsula or the eastern soviet bloc of old...

Interesting development or speculation, whichever it may be.

[MADem]

11. The Saudis have a good handle on what happens in and around their airspace.

I can't imagine anything slipping past them--and it's not like they don't have help in that regard...quiet help, but help.

[madaboutharry]

3. Oh my, could it be that the passengers

are alive and being held hostage? That sounds like something out of a movie.

[HereSince1628]

41. or another alternate movie plot...

We're being fed misinformation to cover the downing of the Malaysian flight

I think we now have enough plot ideas to construct a pilot screenplay and outlines for 2 seasons of shows...

[Cali_Democrat]

4. According to the interwebz...

The Boeing 777 has a cruising speed of 640 miles per hour.

That's means the search radius would have to be about 2,500 miles from it's last known location if the plane stayed in the air for 4 hours after it disappeared from radar, as the article suggests....

How's my math?

[Major Nikon]

13. That's the max cruising speed

Which depends on a few things like optimum altitude. The actual speed was probably slower and this is airspeed, not groundspeed, so it would be faster going with the wind and slower going against it, so certainly not a perfect circle.

[Cali_Democrat]

15. Thanks!

[grasswire]

5. could it have reached North Korea?

I saw that conjecture somewhere.

[MADem]

9. Someone needs to write that movie script, NOW...and get it made in time for summer blockbuster

season.

Picture "The Poseidon Adventure"--an "ensemble" film with a variety of actors, some up-and-coming, others a bit past their sell-by, in this extravaganza. It would be a heckuva thing!

They'd have to find a role for Dennis Rodman...!

[grahamhgreen]

26. I think it's called "Lost"

[MADem]

49. I didn't watch that show, not a single episode, but my impression of that thing was that they

wound up on Gilligan's Island with an airplane instead of the Minnow.

Or did they end up in Pyongyang? The ads always looked like they were dirty and sweaty in a subtropical jungle?

I wanna see a fantastical movie about Li'l Kim kidnapping a plane full of folks of all ages, who use their wit, guile and brute strength to overcome an entire nation of totalitarians!

[functioning_cog]

7. it just gets weirder and weirder.

maybe it flew to some undisclosed location. And what would be the point? The pilot is a "Lost" super fan?

[ecstatic]

8. How long before this gets rescinded?

I am really trying to follow this story, but I don't have much confidence in the information coming out lately.

[Cali_Democrat]

12. Ya...it's a clusterfuck at this point

Although, the information in the OP is just being reported now.

Maybe US officials will make statements in the morning.

If no statements are confirmed, then the article can and should be trashed.

[greyl]

16. Since the engines send data at 30 minute increments,

it would seem that the US investigators are aware of about 9 transmissions. (why else would they offer their 5 hour belief?) If that's true, I don't think this will be rescinded.

[Jerry442]

25. If you read the article, it's amazingly mealy-mouthed about what data they actually have.

Have no idea why they just don't say exactly what times the telemetry was received.

[grahamhgreen]

27. And where.

[Cha]

10. oh boy.. wth! Eventually we have

to find out, right?

[Cali_Democrat]

14. More: No wreckage found in spot where Chinese satellite images show what might be debris

The area has been thoroughly searched...and...NOTHING.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/12/malaysia-airlines-missing-plane-direction-unknown_n_4946232.html#137_no-plane-wreckage-found-at-site-from-china-satellite

[greyl]

17. Wow.

Everyone on the plane may be alive. So far, there's zero evidence that they aren't.

It would be amazing if this has a happy ending.

[SheilaT]

21. If they were alive, wouldn't someone have made

a cell phone call by now?

I suppose there are scenarios that would have prevented that, but those are vanishingly unlikely.

[greyl]

22. I think they must have been confiscated by whoever is/was in charge of that plane. nt

[SheilaT]

28. That assumes a very organized

group of hijackers of some kind. Think about it. By the time the hijackers could have made their way through the entire plane, is it not reasonable that someone would have gotten a quick text message off?

Personally, I'm a bit behind the times as I don't text. But a huge percentage of phone users do, and unless there was a relatively large number of hijackers, there would have been plenty of time to get off a text or two. And, if there really were that large a number of those (I'll call them hijackers) who took over the plane, I'd think that by now those connections would have been made.

I'm also a former airline ticket agent, so even though many things have changed in the years since I left that job, I also understand a lot.

[greyl]

65. It could have been 1 person with a persuasive argument of some sort.

Threat of violence, a compelling lie, etc

For example, who would refuse to give up their cellphone if a Pilot asked passengers to please cooperate with the flight attendant who will be collecting them?

But, that doesn't really matter because the cellphone reception in the area the transponder is likely to be fairly poor, don't you think?

It's also possible for hijackers to be very organized, so I don't see your point there.

[SheilaT]

67. I guess I'm simply far more convinced

that the plane has crashed and all aboard are dead, not that it was hijacked and safely landed somewhere. At this point none of us here knows exactly what happened.

Another question I'd have regarding the possible hijack scenario is why have we heard nothing about the hijacking in terms of ransom demands? Why remain silent? Again, none of us know what happened, and I can myself think of several possibilities that could be the reason here.

Certainly hijackers can be very organized, but that was a big airplane, and unless there were a relatively large number of hijackers on board, it's not going to be easy to take over the aircraft and control all passengers and crew immediately. I'm thinking of how so many people on the hijacked planes made phone calls, although this particular plane, as has already been pointed out, would probably have been totally out of reach of cell towers.

[freshwest]

30. A story said a cellphone did ring, meaning it wasn't blown up. Just hope they're alive, somewhere.nt

[Logical]

45. That has been explained. Nt

[freshwest]

61. Explain it again., If it pinged back from the phone itself or not. n/t

[greyl]

66. When you dial a number, the ring you hear doesn't correspond with the phone you dialed.

The ringing a dialer hears is generated by their carrier, locally.

[freshwest]

68. Yes, I understand that part of telecommunications. It was my job for many years.

The post I read specified a number, seemed to indicate it didn't go to voicemail. As if it had been picked up, but all that you say is correct.

I know how real time and where a signal is coming from, carried from one transmission tower or system to another and being recieved vary.

Just hoping against all reports that they are alive. I don't care if they're held for ransom. They would have a chance to go home in time.

Wishful thinking on my part. This has got to be one of the weirdest missing plane stories I've ever heard.

Thanks for the answer.

[RC]

59. Cell phones need cell towers.

[Gman]

18. In the last 24 hrs. I've started thinking

It's on the ground safe and sound somewhere. The people are hostages. Who knows what happens next.

[DeSwiss]

19. I don't think they know squat. n/t

[SoapBox]

20. I urge everyone to read the full article.

...there is more there.

They "visited the home" of one of the pilots...just say'n.

[MADem]

24. There sure is! ....diverted "with the intention of using it later for another purpose."

Now that's a twist...

[freshwest]

31. What would that be? They used to be used as a getaway. A plane like that uses a lot of fuel, so

where can they get refueled to go somewhere else?

If the details in this story are true, they landed somewhere. Which sounds good to me.

If it was 5 hours or possibly 2,500 miles traveled, that's a lot of places it could have gone to. The outback of Australia, Siberia, some place in China, stuff like that.

But you'd think there'd be a report from one fo those if it entered their airspace.

[MADem]

47. Pyongyang? Somalia? Doctor Evil's Island Lair?

I suppose if they flew low enough they might be able to get through...but then someone would see them.

It is a puzzlement!

[freshwest]

60. If they could get to Somalia, they could get to the Middle East. One piece posted on this said they

'didn't look Asian' and another one said the guys with the 'fake passports' had 'tickets bought together' from 'Iran.'

Quotation marks since all the reports sound like a rumors...

Maybe they were highjacked to the island in LOST and were sucked into another dimension or something. Hopefully not Isla Nublar, that would be bad.

Sorry to joke about this, not lol about the real people on board, just these speculations.

Where was Dr. Evil's island? Is that an Austin Powers or MFU or James Bond reference?

I'm thinking of Dr. Moreau...

[MADem]

62. More rumors.

One kid from Iran was supposedly trying to visit his mom in Germany--perhaps the regime wasn't gonna give him a passport...? It can be tricky getting one of those; you have to know someone....

The two guys with the first fake passports were said to look like an Italian football player--Mario Balotelli--who is of African ancestry, per one of the earlier spokespersons.

It's the Mirror, but there's a pic! http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/missing-malaysia-airlines-flight-passengers-3226330

[freshwest]

63. They must have altered those pictures, too. I don't think it'll work any other way, do you?

I haven't bothered getting a passport, but heard the pictures are really poor, so maybe they didn't change them out, but they just don't look enough alike to me.

My driver's license already frightens me enough to not want to get another picture. The day I had my last one taken I looked and felt like I was ready for the morgue. No one seemed to think anything was amiss, though.

I keep expecting to be treated like the dude on the burial cart in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. I felt like squeaking that I wasn't dead yet. Just like this:

The Dead Collector: Bring out yer dead.

(a man puts a body on the cart)

Large Man with Dead Body: Here's one.

The Dead Collector: That'll be ninepence.

The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm not dead.

The Dead Collector: What?

Large Man with Dead Body: Nothing. There's your ninepence.

The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm not dead.

The Dead Collector: 'Ere, he says he's not dead.

Large Man with Dead Body: Yes he is.

The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm not.

The Dead Collector: He isn't.

Large Man with Dead Body: Well, he will be soon, he's very ill.

The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm getting better.

Large Man with Dead Body: No you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment.

The Dead Collector: Well, I can't take him like that. It's against regulations.

The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I don't want to go on the cart.

Large Man with Dead Body: Oh, don't be such a baby.

The Dead Collector: I can't take him.

The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I feel fine.

Large Man with Dead Body: Oh, do me a favor.

The Dead Collector: I can't.

Large Man with Dead Body: Well, can you hang around for a couple of minutes? He won't be long.

The Dead Collector: I promised I'd be at the Robinsons'. They've lost nine today.

Large Man with Dead Body: Well, when's your next round?

The Dead Collector: Thursday.

The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I think I'll go for a walk.

Large Man with Dead Body: You're not fooling anyone, you know. Isn't there anything you could do?

The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I feel happy. I feel happy.

(the Dead Collector glances up and down the street furtively, then silences the Body with his a whack of his club)

Large Man with Dead Body: Ah, thank you very much.

The Dead Collector: Not at all. See you on Thursday.

Large Man with Dead Body: Right.

Naturally, I'm playing The Dead Body. I wonder if that will happen to me on one of my less than chipper days...

Actually, I'm not sure I could have said that. I just sighed and asked when I could get another picture taken, in hopes of having another day when I wasn't half past dead.

[MADem]

64. Hee hee....I look like hell in EVERY ID picture I have...!

Or at least...that's what I keep TELLING myself!

No, I don't look at ALL like that!

[IDemo]

33. The pilot had a 777 flight sim at home

It would be interesting to see if any of its flight history could be recovered.

MH370 pilot an aviation junkie, with flight simulator set up at home

http://www.todayonline.com/world/asia/mh370-pilot-aviation-junkie-flight-simulator-set-home-0

?itok=_TEV4xfD

[Kablooie]

23. Maybe they flew to Shangri-la.

Seems the only way to get there is to have a plane disappear.

[randome]

53. That would be a hell of a lot of new residents!

I just re-read that book about four months ago. Great writing.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]All things in moderation, including moderation.[/center][/font][hr]

[Kablooie]

56. I just realized I never read it.

I think of Capra's movie.

Lost Horizon is now on my reading list of classics to catch up on.
Might as well put Goodbye Mr. Chips on the list as well.
(another James Hilton book)

[exboyfil]

29. We probably use the same type of software

to download conditions on our off road equipment. It begs the question why the "black boxes" are not set up with the same type of technology. Understanding what commands were given to the plane would allow investigators to quickly pinpoint its location (I think?).

[functioning_cog]

32. My understanding is engine performance data is much

Smaller data footprint than the many readings from the plane captured on flight data recorder. Supposedly in past airlines said it was cost prohibitive. Will have to check that.

[exboyfil]

34. Here is one OEM example

http://www.deere.com/wps/dcom/en_US/services_and_support/product_support/construction_technology_solutions/machine_monitoring/machine_monitoring.page

No profit in keeping track of aircrafts full of passengers for a remote contingency? Sucks if you are one of the family members/friends wanting to know what happened to your relative. From a terrorism standpoint you really would like to get all the information on one of these flying missiles in case another cabin is breached or some pilot goes rogue. The billions and billions we spent on homeland security, and we can't keep track of what is going on in a major aircraft in real time? This is not some Cessna.

We have to be out of our minds.

[Hissyspit]

35. Malaysia's transport minister says media reports suggesting lost Flight kept flying are inaccurate

@BreakingNews: Malaysia's transport minister says media reports suggesting lost Malaysia Airlines aircraft kept flying are inaccurate - live video

[malaise]

36. I just heard him Hissyspit

He also said the pilots homes were not searched and the Chinese released the satellite images by mistake. I'm watching the press conference on BBC International.

[Blue_Tires]

46. The Malaysian Gov't has allowed this investigation to

get fucked up beyond belief...Uncontained rumors, false leaks, allowing others to speak to the press, WTF? press conferences, witholding information from foreign investigators (allegedly), etc...

I hope someone talks some sense into them and they just turn over all data to U.S., British or French investigative boards and fade quietly in the background...

[malaise]

48. I don't see how

As the Acting Minister of Transport said this morning - the plane vanished and they are doing everything they can (along with several other countries) to find it. he also pointed out that this was unprecedented.

I would argue that speculation in the media is way more harmful.

At least with the Air France Mystery from 2009 debris was found even though it took two years to locate the aircraft.

[Blue_Tires]

52. I know they're trying their best

but their management of the crisis and dissemination of info to the media have been horrific...

I mean this is basic PR 101 stuff -- Basic commandments like not divulging info until you are 100% certain of validity and relevance; making sure ALL information flows through Malaysian officials ONLY and that other countries' investigators aren't anonymously spouting off their own theories; making sure the media understands 'If-you-didn't-hear-it-from-us-it's-bullshit' under no uncertain terms; etc...

To see how many people are talking to the press, you'd think that Malaysia wasn't the lead country in this effort...Go back and see how tightly and professionally the BEA handled the AF447 in spite of all the speculation...I understand there are cultural considerations here; Malaysian officials have never dealt with an incident on this scale in front of an international media starved for answers (I read in another piece that Malaysian officials aren't used to probing follow-up questions, or having the inconsistencies in their press conferences exposed)...

I realize their hearts are in the right place in wanting to take the lead since it's their airline with their citizens taking off from their airport; but if the Malaysians aren't ready for prime time (which seems increasingly evident) then there is no shame in requesting some other nation take over...Smaller countries do it all the time...

[malaise]

54. Well I blame the Malaysian Army for most of the misinformation

but the foreign media has also been speculating big time

[Blue_Tires]

55. No doubt there's been too much crazy media speculation

and too many Asian outlets have been running with CLEARLY fake or made-up stories...

The difference is when officials keep the information consistent, direct and controlled, rumors and nutty speculation tends to die out rather quickly...When officials are all over the place in their comments to the press, rumors and speculation grow like a hundred wildfires...

[Separation]

37. Just saw on CNN that the Malaysains are disputing this.

They said the report from WSJ is false and not accurate. What's even more weird is that the Indian Navy are ramping up to start looking as well.

I can't tell if Malaysian Gov/military/airline company is running around with their heads cut off and don't have a clue. I'm not sure if its inaccurate reporting, or news saturation or what.

Normally when something like this happens here, you have one spokesman from the NTSB and maybe one from the airliner. Most you will normally get is, no comment, not going to speculate, until the investigation is complete.

This is just a circus and it's sad because it's more than just a news story, there are hundreds of families out there grieving looking for hope or at least closure. All these stories coming out...I can't even imagine what they are going through.

[malaise]

38. More importantly Rolls Royce do not have any data after 1.07

and up to that time everything was operating normally.

[countryjake]

40. Yes, both Boeing & Rolls Royce have informed Hishammuddin Hussein...

that those reports were inaccurate. They both have teams right there in Kuala Lumpur and have worked with the search investigation teams since Sunday. (that is what Hussein said at the press conference.)

CNN is now suggesting that perhaps the info that the WSJ reported on was given to them by someone from those companies here in the USA and the teams who are helping in Malaysia are themselves unaware of the new data. (I doubt that.)

[countryjake]

39. Here's a bit from the Guardian...

MH370: Malaysia dismisses 'inaccurate' reports that plane flew on for hours - live updates

http://www.theguardian.com/world/blog/2014/mar/13/mh370-no-sign-of-debris-detected-by-chinese-satellite-live-updates

Malaysia Airlines appears to have downplayed reports that Rolls Royce, the engine makers of the missing plane, may have received two sets of data on its whereabouts.

Earlier this week the New Scientist revealed that one set of data tracked the plane after take-off and a second recorded it was during the climb towards Beijing. The data is from the Airborne Communications Addressing and Reporting System or ACARS. It said:

"The missing Malaysia Airlines jet sent at least two bursts of technical data back to the airline before it disappeared, New Scientist has learned.

To aid maintenance, most airlines use the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS), which automatically collates and files four technical reports during every flight so that engineers can spot problems. These reports are sent via VHF radio or satellite at take-off, during the climb, at some point while cruising, and on landing."

Now Malaysia Airlines has told Sky News that the Roll Royce engines stopped transmitting updates when the plane lost contact, according to its correspondent Mark Stone. He did not elaborate.

The press conference is under way...

Malaysia’s defence and acting transport minister Hishammuddin Hussein said reports that the plane stayed in the air for several hours after losing contact were “inaccurate”.

He also confirmed that no debris had been found where Chinese satellite’s detected large objects on Sunday in the South China Sea.

Hussein announced that Malaysia has shared raw military radar data with its international partners.

[stevenleser]

42. The different pieces of info coming out and then disputed is a fascinating part of this story

I can't wait to see the ending in all of this.

[idendoit]

43. Wow, we were discussing this very possibility.

Instantaneous loss of IFF seemed to mean catastrophic failure or intentional power down. Since no wreckage is found where expected....

[morningfog]

44. Wow, with this new radius of possible locations, I wonder if they will find the beeper in time.

[B2G]

50. This would explain why no one has claimed responsibility

If someone wanted the plane, and not the passengers for ransome, you wouldn't have any claims yet.

The claims would come after the plane had served it's intended purpose.

Of course I was ridiculed in another thread for this very speculation.

Interesting for sure.

[Pholus]

51. Remember that one depressurized plane with Payne Stewart?

Maybe they lost pressure and were unconscious. One theory NOT mentioned yet. But we got terror out there in like 10 seconds.

Here is a article from 1995 talking about sudden 777 depressurizations involving hospitalizations for test crews:

http://www.nytimes.com/1995/02/05/us/boeing-discovers-cause-of-sudden-losses-of-pressure-by-777-s.html

[lapislzi]

57. Yes, but Stewart's plane stayed on radar the whole time

It flew on course, on autopilot for a very long time. It even had an escort. Very tragic, but 100% documented.

So far, every theory put out there is problematic for one reason or another.

[Pholus]

58. True enough.

But you do have the spotty radar coverage and the other poster who claims the autopilot would descend to 10000 feet upon depressurization (and I can't verify that).

It's all strange, but I do rebel against the tendency to immediately consider every negative event terrorism. I think it creates the wrong mindset to deal with life in the 21st century United States.

[laundry_queen]

69. I still think it has crashed in the ocean

or maybe in the jungle somewhere. Since there are questions about this information, I'm sticking with my theory, but even if the jet kept on flying, it doesn't rule out a crash. There have been instances of jumbo jets getting lost because of really stupid or small inputs in the navigation system. In the middle of the night, with no visual checkpoints, I still think if the plane DID keep flying, it's likely navigation error/pilot disorientation could've also caused a crash. Sadly, while I want to have hope, I don't think the plane is on some runway somewhere with over 200 people hanging out waiting to be rescued. I really think they will eventually find wreckage.

[Jenoch]

70. "...the Boeing Co. 777's engines..."

Huh? I thought the engines were made by Rolls Royce?