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Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:29 PM

 

Who's wreaked more international havoc lately? US or Russia?

Over the past five years, including what's going on now in Ukraine, which country's caused more geopolitical strife?

(Note to the dim-witted: I'm not defending Putin, defending Russia's actions, hating on homosexuals, etc. just trying to get some perspective here.)

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Reply Who's wreaked more international havoc lately? US or Russia? (Original post)
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 OP
AverageJoe90 Mar 2014 #1
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #3
jazzimov Mar 2014 #19
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #20
sheshe2 Mar 2014 #22
Scootaloo Mar 2014 #24
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #32
newfie11 Mar 2014 #146
hack89 Mar 2014 #153
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #154
nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #2
pscot Mar 2014 #14
nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #16
2banon Mar 2014 #18
Scootaloo Mar 2014 #30
T. J. Kong Mar 2014 #138
fadedrose Mar 2014 #132
KoKo Mar 2014 #162
nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #175
ProSense Mar 2014 #4
Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #11
ProSense Mar 2014 #15
Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #25
msanthrope Mar 2014 #180
pscot Mar 2014 #27
ProSense Mar 2014 #34
pscot Mar 2014 #47
ProSense Mar 2014 #52
pscot Mar 2014 #85
ProSense Mar 2014 #92
pscot Mar 2014 #112
ProSense Mar 2014 #116
pscot Mar 2014 #127
ProSense Mar 2014 #129
pscot Mar 2014 #131
rhett o rick Mar 2014 #125
ProSense Mar 2014 #126
Lost_Count Mar 2014 #149
former9thward Mar 2014 #81
ProSense Mar 2014 #84
former9thward Mar 2014 #93
ProSense Mar 2014 #96
arely staircase Mar 2014 #43
sheshe2 Mar 2014 #35
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #38
sheshe2 Mar 2014 #39
Enthusiast Mar 2014 #148
sheshe2 Mar 2014 #184
zeemike Mar 2014 #89
arely staircase Mar 2014 #115
zeemike Mar 2014 #155
JackRiddler Mar 2014 #182
arely staircase Mar 2014 #45
sheshe2 Mar 2014 #56
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #61
Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #63
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #66
Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #106
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #107
Cali_Democrat Mar 2014 #122
uponit7771 Jul 2014 #200
arely staircase Mar 2014 #65
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #71
arely staircase Mar 2014 #74
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #75
arely staircase Mar 2014 #76
sheshe2 Mar 2014 #80
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #82
arely staircase Mar 2014 #99
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #105
arely staircase Mar 2014 #110
Puglover Mar 2014 #170
PowerToThePeople Jun 2014 #196
joshcryer Mar 2014 #192
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #193
babylonsister Mar 2014 #130
sheshe2 Mar 2014 #135
dionysus Mar 2014 #185
Number23 Mar 2014 #62
arely staircase Mar 2014 #67
sheshe2 Mar 2014 #83
arely staircase Mar 2014 #87
SunsetDreams Mar 2014 #88
Number23 Mar 2014 #144
SunsetDreams Mar 2014 #161
JoePhilly Mar 2014 #172
JackRiddler Mar 2014 #183
Hissyspit Jul 2014 #197
Hissyspit Jul 2014 #199
Fumesucker Mar 2014 #5
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #6
blkmusclmachine Mar 2014 #7
pscot Mar 2014 #8
HereSince1628 Mar 2014 #9
functioning_cog Mar 2014 #10
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #13
cthulu2016 Mar 2014 #12
jazzimov Mar 2014 #17
snappyturtle Mar 2014 #21
CFLDem Mar 2014 #23
nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #26
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #28
arely staircase Mar 2014 #29
riqster Mar 2014 #159
babylonsister Mar 2014 #31
sheshe2 Mar 2014 #50
treestar Mar 2014 #51
sheshe2 Mar 2014 #59
JoePhilly Mar 2014 #173
SidDithers Mar 2014 #53
Number23 Mar 2014 #58
babylonsister Mar 2014 #86
zappaman Mar 2014 #143
Benton D Struckcheon Mar 2014 #33
functioning_cog Mar 2014 #42
babylonsister Mar 2014 #108
DeSwiss Mar 2014 #118
joshcryer Mar 2014 #36
CFLDem Mar 2014 #41
joshcryer Mar 2014 #48
CFLDem Mar 2014 #54
joshcryer Mar 2014 #97
SunsetDreams Mar 2014 #37
Autumn Mar 2014 #40
TwilightGardener Mar 2014 #44
T. J. Kong Mar 2014 #46
Recursion Mar 2014 #49
SidDithers Mar 2014 #55
sheshe2 Mar 2014 #57
greytdemocrat Mar 2014 #157
JoePhilly Mar 2014 #166
Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #60
functioning_cog Mar 2014 #64
Spider Jerusalem Mar 2014 #72
HipChick Mar 2014 #68
bkanderson76 Mar 2014 #69
JoeyT Mar 2014 #70
amandabeech Mar 2014 #73
arely staircase Mar 2014 #77
Autumn Mar 2014 #91
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #98
Autumn Mar 2014 #181
amandabeech Mar 2014 #178
nationalize the fed Mar 2014 #95
nationalize the fed Mar 2014 #78
PoliticalPothead Mar 2014 #79
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #94
PoliticalPothead Mar 2014 #102
geek tragedy Mar 2014 #104
PoliticalPothead Mar 2014 #111
Maedhros Mar 2014 #176
ProSense Mar 2014 #90
SunsetDreams Mar 2014 #101
ProSense Mar 2014 #103
Cha Mar 2014 #124
kelliekat44 Mar 2014 #100
Samantha Mar 2014 #109
DeSwiss Mar 2014 #113
Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #114
Catherina Mar 2014 #120
Laura PourMeADrink Mar 2014 #156
babylonsister Mar 2014 #117
JI7 Mar 2014 #123
babylonsister Mar 2014 #128
bettyellen Mar 2014 #186
JoePhilly Mar 2014 #174
BeyondGeography Jul 2014 #202
JEB Mar 2014 #119
Fearless Mar 2014 #121
Rex Mar 2014 #134
Fearless Mar 2014 #137
Rex Mar 2014 #133
Drunken Irishman Mar 2014 #136
Rex Mar 2014 #139
obxhead Mar 2014 #140
Name removed Mar 2014 #141
BeyondGeography Mar 2014 #142
Donald Ian Rankin Mar 2014 #145
Enthusiast Mar 2014 #147
jsr Mar 2014 #164
politicman Mar 2014 #150
ozone_man Mar 2014 #171
Name removed Mar 2014 #151
PATRICK Mar 2014 #152
Romulox Mar 2014 #158
CJCRANE Mar 2014 #160
MannyGoldstein Mar 2014 #163
hrmjustin Mar 2014 #165
JoePhilly Mar 2014 #167
Bobbie Jo Mar 2014 #168
JoePhilly Mar 2014 #169
Hissyspit Jul 2014 #198
chrisa Mar 2014 #177
renegade000 Mar 2014 #188
LanternWaste Mar 2014 #179
phleshdef Mar 2014 #187
Bonobo Mar 2014 #189
bettyellen Mar 2014 #190
Bonobo Mar 2014 #191
bettyellen Mar 2014 #194
Bonobo Mar 2014 #195
orpupilofnature57 Jul 2014 #201
Peacetrain Jul 2014 #203

Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:31 PM

1. TBH, probably Russia at this point, especially with the shenanigans in the Ukraine. nt

 

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Response to AverageJoe90 (Reply #1)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:32 PM

3. How would you compare that to

 

Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, and drones?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #3)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:50 PM

19. Hmmm, that sort of negates your whole

"note to the dim-witted" exception. It sounds like you've already made up your mind.

But as I posted down-thread: it makes no difference.

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Response to jazzimov (Reply #19)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:52 PM

20. Sorry, I forgot. My bad.

 

Ipso facto, the dim-witted are incapable of comprehending language as commonly understood.

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Response to jazzimov (Reply #19)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:54 PM

22. You just nailed it, jazzimov!

You got Bingo!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #3)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:55 PM

24. You set the timescale to "The last five years," Manny

 

Within that timescale, most of the big carnage has been intra-national, rather than international, and hte US has largely drawn down from where it was. Libya was a multinational endeavor (which included Libya itself). As for drones, those cause carnage on a personal scale, rather than a national scale.

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #24)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:00 PM

32. Eisenhower ended the Korean war in a few months.

 

I think that any stand-down that takes longer than that is willful aggression. We've been in Afghanistan, during Obama's presidency, longer than our entire span in WWII.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #32)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 05:25 AM

146. +infinity! Nt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #32)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 08:46 AM

153. By threatening nuclear war with China

In late 1952 Eisenhower went to Korea and discovered a military and political stalemate. Once in office, when the Chinese began a buildup in the Kaesong sanctuary, he threatened to use nuclear force if an armistice was not concluded. His earlier military reputation in Europe was effective with the Chinese.[147] The National Security Council, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Strategic Air Command (SAC) devised detailed plans for nuclear war against China.[148] With the death of Stalin in early March 1953, Russian support for a Chinese hard-line weakened and China decided to compromise on the prisoner issue.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwight_D._Eisenhower#Korean_War.2C_China.2C_and_Taiwan

After his success in defeating the Germans, the Chinese were not willing to gamble that he wouldn't be willing to kill millions of them.

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Response to hack89 (Reply #153)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 08:51 AM

154. What superpower plays China's role this time?

 

And there's no armistice line in Iraq or Afghanistan.

Seems like we could have pulled out of both, pronto, with outcomes not materially different then we're getting anyway.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:32 PM

2. Close call, but I would give it to Russia

 

so far they have been able to invade TWO countries without too much of a fuss and absorb areas back into the Empire.

Also messes in peripheries of Empires are kind of a lot of noise, but little else. This is not in the periphery, but very much in the center of Europe. Did I mention two world wars in that area, the first one starting after five year of on and off armed conflict in the same exact area?

The US is pretty much right now a tired empire.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:43 PM

14. Nadine!!

The Crimea is hardly in the center of Europe. Ukraine is a synthetic state created by Stalin. Suppose Texas voted in a Socialist governmnent ( I know, it's a reach) and decided to join Mexico.

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Response to pscot (Reply #14)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:45 PM

16. The Crimean region as an identity goes back to at least Kievan Rus

 

in fact, much earlier than the middle ages.

that is a few centuries before Peter the Great.

And some regions of the Ukraine as a self identified regions also go that far back.

Sorry, but I can think beyond the 20th century on this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Crimea

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Response to pscot (Reply #14)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:48 PM

18. I wish Texas would secede, I wouldn't care if they rejoined Mexico.. :)

 

Of course Mexico probably have them, but hey.. just sayin' ..

Oh they can have Arizona while they're at it!

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #2)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:58 PM

30. Point of order...

 

While Russia did march into Georgia, it was Georgia that picked that fight; Tbilisi was really hedging its actions on the idea that the United States would fly in and fight Russia for them. Didn't happen, and Georgia got rolled. bad decision to shoot a lot of mortars into enclaves of people with Russian nationality, if you ask me

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Response to Scootaloo (Reply #30)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:25 AM

138. I agree

 

When folks start shooting at you, you have every right to defend yourself.

The same goes for molotov cocktails.

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Response to nadinbrzezinski (Reply #2)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:42 AM

132. I agree with you nadin...we are a tired nation

maybe we can sit this one out.

We have enough battles going on in our Congress.

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Response to fadedrose (Reply #132)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:14 AM

162. The PEOPLE of the Empire are TIRED...but NOT the Empire Itself...n/t

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Response to KoKo (Reply #162)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:38 AM

175. Unless the empire is willing to risk a nuclear exchange

 

(There I go, worst casing this fer ya) this is seen as the absolute limit of American power right now.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:32 PM

4. LOL!

"Note to the dim-witted: I'm not defending Putin, defending Russia's actions, hating on homosexuals, etc. just trying to get some perspective here.)"

Perspective like: "Who's wrecked more international havoc lately? US or Russia?"

Yikes! You should rethink that sentence.





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Response to ProSense (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:41 PM

11. HAHAHAHAHA

 

Notice how the OP sort of brushed the LGBT issue aside?

Telling....

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #11)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:44 PM

15. Bush invaded Iraq, ergo, Putin is justified.

To hell with democracy and them rights stuff!!!

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Response to ProSense (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:55 PM

25. ...oh and of course the OP only wants to look at the past 5 years

 

because what happened 5 years ago?

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #25)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 03:26 PM

180. What happened five years ago????? *Raises Hand*

 

Some people had their brains broke 5 years ago--that's what.....

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Response to ProSense (Reply #15)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:56 PM

27. How about, we have no moral standing

for our complaint. Still less so, since Ukraine is now a gas play and "our" Energy Giants are deeply committed. Our outrage is fundamentally dishonest, except for a few genuine cold war loonies like McCain who want to wave the bloody shirt.

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Response to pscot (Reply #27)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:04 PM

34. LOL! No one

"How about, we have no moral standing"

...cares about the silliness. The UN just voted to condemn Putin, and China left him out in the cold.

Japan does not recognize Crimea vote: government spokesman
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024676007

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Response to ProSense (Reply #34)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:17 PM

47. What particular satisfaction do you derive from that?

This is all a tempest in a teapot. All our posturing is just a pose. Our only interest there is the corporate interest. .In 10 years no one will remember it happened.

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Response to pscot (Reply #47)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:20 PM

52. Right

"This is all a tempest in a teapot. All our posturing is just a pose. Our only interest there is the corporate interest. .In 10 years no one will remember it happened. "

...all Putin's illegal invasion is about is protecting democracy and rights.

Fact is, he is being rightly condemned.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #52)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:49 PM

85. Putin is protecting what he sees as belonging to Russia

We have dirty hands. We've recently slaughtered hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghanis on a damned pretext. Our vaunted morality is a lie. We don't live by the values we preach. We see the mote in Putin's eye but not the beam in our own. I haven't heard any preaching about human rights from the Russians. They do want to keep what's theirs, and I expect they will, whether we like it or not.

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Response to pscot (Reply #85)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:54 PM

92. You can't be serious. That justifies illegally invading another country? n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #92)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:07 AM

112. I know, you're shocked. Like Sleeping Beauty

you napped through the noughties when we invaded 2 countries, appointed ourselves world cop and started droning furriners and spying on ourselves and everyone else on the planet. We even put octogenarian nuns in jail if they get out of line. Since 2008 we've lived in Obama's Perfect World and he's made everything all better. If only. I'm going to have get myself a glass of warm milk and some cookies to calm me before bed. Maybe I'll dream about the America you think we live in. That would be pleasant.

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Response to pscot (Reply #112)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:12 AM

116. I see,

"I know, you're shocked. Like Sleeping Beauty you napped through the noughties when we invaded 2 countries, appointed ourselves world cop and started droning furriners and spying on ourselves and everyone else on the planet. We even put octogenarian nuns in jail if they get out of line. Since 2008 we've lived in Obama's Perfect World and he's made everything all better. If only. I'm going to have get myself a glass of warm milk and some cookies to calm me before bed. Maybe I'll dream about the America you think we live in. That would be pleasant."

...you believe that because Bush invaded Iraq, Putin is justified in invading Ukraine. Evidently, you now support the Bush doctrine. Will you be supporting illegal invasions going forward?


Stand with Big Vladdy
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024675812#post90

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Response to ProSense (Reply #116)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:32 AM

127. That's silly

Putin has put a marker down over Crimea. Should we send the Sixth Fleet into the Black Sea to drive the Russians out? There are apparently vast amounts of gas under Ukraine. Our oil majors want it. We're very big on popular revolutions as long as they happen elsewhere. But march on Wall Street, or to protest what your local utility company is doing and get your head bashed. As Nadine pointed out upthread, Ukraine is practically Europe. So let the Europeans handle it. We're twisting their arme to get tough with Russia. Why is that? Do you really believe it's because we have the best interests of Ukranians at heart?

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Response to pscot (Reply #127)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:37 AM

129. What on earth are you talking about? n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #129)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:39 AM

131. Thanks for the clarification.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #92)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:27 AM

125. No there is no justification of invading another country. But I guess you think it's ok if

 

the USofA does it. Counting Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, our death count from illegal invasions is in the millions. But you are willing to overlook that because of some patriotic American exceptionalism.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #125)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:31 AM

126. Nonsense. n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #52)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 06:31 AM

149. Condemn all day but I don't see any actions...

 

... That will stop any of this from going forward.

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Response to ProSense (Reply #34)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:47 PM

81. Are you saying the UN passed a resolution?

Russia vetoed it. China abstained from it. When the U.S. vetoes a resolution are you going to post the "UN just voted to condemn the U.S."?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #81)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:49 PM

84. What?

That makes no sense. LOL!

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Response to ProSense (Reply #84)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:54 PM

93. Did you accidentally reply to one of your posts?

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Response to former9thward (Reply #93)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:55 PM

96. Your comment made no sense. n/t

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #11)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:13 PM

43. and hatin on the gays and whatevs

disgusting dismissal of human rights

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Response to ProSense (Reply #4)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:06 PM

35. For us dim witted people

hating on homosexuals, etc.


Homosexuals are now an etcetera?!@#$%^&*

That is indeed a profound statement from Manny!

I am sure this post will be off to the greatest page with an awesome number of recs!

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #35)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:09 PM

38. One of us needs professional help. nt

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #38)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:10 PM

39. I know! nt

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #39)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 06:12 AM

148. If you know, make an appointment.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #148)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:53 PM

184. Cute.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #38)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:52 PM

89. You don't understand Manny.

Gay rights trumps everything even if it means a fascist government in the Ukraine or a war that kills thousands.
Which is ironic sense the gays and Jews will be the first to go.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #89)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:11 AM

115. I don't think you are helping him

Like you assume

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #115)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 08:56 AM

155. I am not here to help him

And I don't assume I am.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #89)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 09:56 PM

182. Yeah, because the Ukrainian fascists...

 

are big friends of the gay community.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #35)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:16 PM

45. lgbt = etc

according to mannygoldstein

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #45)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:22 PM

56. Yes indeed.

LGBT=etc~

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #45)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:28 PM

61. I think you should alert on the OP, for its obvious

 

attack on the LGBT community. This sort of thing should not be allowed to stand.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #61)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:29 PM

63. BTW....

 

Why do you only want to go back 5 years?

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #63)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:31 PM

66. Make it ten.

 

I'm not sure how that helps makes a case against Russia, but go for it.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #66)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:59 PM

106. It's just interesting

 

...that you mentioned 5 years in your OP.

What happened 5 years ago?

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Response to Cali_Democrat (Reply #106)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:00 AM

107. Bush stopped being President? nt

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #107)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:21 AM

122. ...and Obama became president

 

it's been so awful under Obama that you'd rather overturn his election than the election of Reagan.

Right?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #107)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 10:02 AM

200. lol...E for effort

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #61)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:30 PM

65. no I want everyone to see it

should have thought this one over.

Sincerely,

Etc.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #65)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:33 PM

71. It'll still be viewable

 

But with the shame of being censured by DU.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #71)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:36 PM

74. oh it is viewable

for all of us in the etc. community.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #74)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:38 PM

75. I guess I've shown my true colors

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #75)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:40 PM

76. fucking a you have

Sincerely

Etc. Arely

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #61)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:47 PM

80. Nope, we will let it stand Manny!

A need to know sort of thing.

You said it and you own it.

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #80)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:47 PM

82. Truly, the jig is up for me.

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #82)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:56 PM

99. disgusting dismissal of human rights ia pretty revealing

isn't it?

Sincerely,

Etc. Arely




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Response to arely staircase (Reply #99)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:59 PM

105. Utterly.

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #105)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:02 AM

110. etc.

Sorry but you own that forever.

Sincerely,

Etc. Arely

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #82)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:12 AM

170. I love how these folks find the

LGTB community such a convenient cudgel to batter progressives with. And yet were screaming at us during the Rick Warren incident and during the hottest part of the fight for marriage equality.

"You have enough rights."

Gee they were no where to be found.

Pay no attention to the disingenuous bullshite.

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Response to Puglover (Reply #170)

Sun Jun 1, 2014, 01:47 AM

196. Rec

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #82)

Tue Mar 18, 2014, 09:26 PM

192. You drive way too much traffic.

It'll take a whole lot more than this to get you booted. Though it's quaint they are trying.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #192)

Tue Mar 18, 2014, 11:03 PM

193. But writing "etc."... At some point DU's Admins need to take a stand for basic human decency. nt

 

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #80)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:38 AM

130. Manny talks a lot!

I think it's fine, fun, occasionally infuriating. That's when I ignore him.

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #130)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:01 AM

135. Well I do have some fun responding~

I try to cheer him up when he haz a sad...

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #61)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:05 PM

185. manny, you are a smart guy, you deal on the shadowy edge of tactical trolling. you have mad skills.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #45)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:29 PM

62. Not just lgbt

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Response to Number23 (Reply #62)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:31 PM

67. nah, we are etc. nt

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Response to Number23 (Reply #62)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:48 PM

83. We are all etc! nt

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #83)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:52 PM

87. etc way etc

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Response to Number23 (Reply #62)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:52 PM

88. Take two etc..edrin

and call Putin in the morning preferably at 3 a.m.

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Response to SunsetDreams (Reply #88)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 03:21 AM

144. SunsetDreams!!! How are you??

Haven't seen you for ages, not that I blame you.

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Response to Number23 (Reply #144)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:09 AM

161. Hey 23!

I'm doing good! How are you doing?

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #45)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:26 AM

172. The perpetually outraged only cared about lgbt rights

when they thought Obama was never ever going to end DADT.

Way back when DADT was still on the books, the perpetually outraged were very very concerned about it. Obama was a bad guy who was never going to end it. BASTARD!!

Then Obama ended DADT, and now backs marriage equality.

So the perpetually disgruntled simply decided that lgbt rights were nothing more than "crumbs" that Obama was throwing to the left. Meaningless scraps.

Thus the framing in the OP. lgbt rights are rather insignificant and should not be considered to carry any weight in this particular outrage topic.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #45)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 09:57 PM

183. Clearly not.

 

lgbt is on his list. Etc. would refer to whatever he didn't specify in addition.

But go ahead: what's the point of reading, when you can engage in fake outrage?

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #45)

Sun Jul 20, 2014, 05:22 AM

197. No, it doesn't. It separated by a comma.

When the fuck does comma equal equal?

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Response to sheshe2 (Reply #35)

Sun Jul 20, 2014, 05:35 AM

199. See post #91.

The comma is actually important.

Nice attempt at distorting his point.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:34 PM

5. Wreaked...

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Response to Fumesucker (Reply #5)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:35 PM

6. D'oh!

 

Will update, thanks.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:35 PM

7. Guess.

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:37 PM

8. If hypocrisy were an Olympic event

We could pave Pennsylvania Ave. with gold medals

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:38 PM

9. I'm stuck, at least one of those countries does its havoc covertly

And I think it's the same country that is the greatest threat to US democracy.

But I can't know, because it's mostly done covertly, doncha know?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:38 PM

10. Benefit of the doubt. Excuses. Case in point.

 

Just like FoxnFriends. "We're just asking' questions here!"

Pretty transparent and oh so consistent. And I predict over 100 recs. and we know you care about recs and rep. We read ATA.

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Response to functioning_cog (Reply #10)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:42 PM

13. Because, as you know, I have trouble coming out and speaking my mind.

 

LOL.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:42 PM

12. USA has. Doesn't mean Russia is supposed to grow in size.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:46 PM

17. Here's some perspective:

it doesn'T make any difference.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:53 PM

21. I think the U.S. has the gold medal on this one. nt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:54 PM

23. Well which one is setting up the next major European war?

 

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Response to CFLDem (Reply #23)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:55 PM

26. Mars

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:56 PM

28. Russia. Sorry we can't endorse Putin over Obama like you would prefer. nt

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:57 PM

29. putin rocks

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #29)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 09:46 AM

159. Kremlin Way Arely! Brilliant.

Later today I'll be putting away some Irish beer. Will that make me "Putin' 'Way Riqster"?

We could have lots of pun with this.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 10:58 PM

31. What has the US done in the past five years to attract your ire? Oye. nt

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #31)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:18 PM

50. Well I would have to say...

That Manny ...haz a sad. However, I am not really saying that because the last time I did I was alerted on.

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #31)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:20 PM

51. elected and reelected Barack H. Obama as President?

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Response to treestar (Reply #51)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:26 PM

59. Well I think you just nailed that one treestar!

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Response to treestar (Reply #51)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:27 AM

173. Winner!

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #31)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:20 PM

53. Elected Obama twice...nt

Sid

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #31)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:26 PM

58. I was wondering if I was the only person that noted the OPs focus only on the last five years

Hmmm...what was it that happened only five years ago that would set the OP's loins and outrage meter on fire, I wonder...

(checking calendar to see how long Obama has been in office vs the numerous times old Vlad has served as President/Prime Minister/Tsar of Russia)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=439&topic_id=761367&mesg_id=761480

Do you think the OP will get as tired of doing his schtick as the rest of us are of reading it anytime soon??

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Response to Number23 (Reply #58)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:50 PM

86. It's being noticed. That's a good thing, and thanks to you and

everyone else.

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #86)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 02:18 AM

143. You better believe it!

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:03 PM

33. Global attitudes on the US

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/07/18/chapter-1-attitudes-toward-the-united-states/

Not too shabby. As number ones go, I was expecting to see a lot more resentment, but actually, it's not bad out there.

You may notice, if you actually go to that link, that over in the sidebar there's some stuff on US v China. Not Russia, China.
Russia's an insignificant irritant, nothing more. Their ability to wreak havoc is strictly limited, so this question is kind of silly. The powers in the world are the ones with economies that actually matter, not the ones passively supplying raw materials like Russia. Obviously both the US and China will, in any five year period, wreak significantly more havoc than Russia simply as a side effect of their size.
Russia simply can't. It has a hard enough time keeping its economy chugging along at enough speed to keep their long-suffering folks head above water.

As for how the world sees Russia, here you go:

http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/09/03/global-opinion-of-russia-mixed/

Even though they can't do much harm beyond the borders of their old empire, people don't like them anyway. Can't imagine why.

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Response to Benton D Struckcheon (Reply #33)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:13 PM

42. Very thorough and accurate answer

 

Wonder what Manny's reply will be.

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Response to Benton D Struckcheon (Reply #33)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:00 AM

108. Thanks! nt

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Response to Benton D Struckcheon (Reply #33)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:16 AM

118. Lies, damned lies and statistics.

 

- Where would we be without 'em?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:08 PM

36. Pax Americana.

Without a question of doubt. Russia's forays are indicative of a desperate empire falling.



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Response to joshcryer (Reply #36)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:13 PM

41. The War on Terror

 

has shown the world no longer should fear or follow us.

What a shame...

Ironically I think this new Cold War could be an opportunity to redeem ourselves by tempering our excesses and encouraging more competitive investments.

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Response to CFLDem (Reply #41)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:17 PM

48. I used the term ironically, just a heads up.

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Response to joshcryer (Reply #48)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:21 PM

54. Thanks for the heads up.

 

But to me at least, the term means American influence has permanently plateaued.

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Response to CFLDem (Reply #54)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:55 PM

97. I think it will take China to take the US down a notch.

Other than that I think the US will continue meddling.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:11 PM

40. The US. But none of it is Obamas fault.

This is in no way an endorsement of Putin, just thought I should add that for people who are attracted to your OPs for whatever reason. Oh and rec just because I want to.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:14 PM

44. Russia--pretty much has Europe on edge, and props up Assad while

he bombs and starves his own citizens. So yeah, I know, IRAQ!! but lately, Russia wins the destabilization and dirty-deeds contest.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:16 PM

46. Everybody Knows

 



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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:17 PM

49. Over the past *5* years, you ask? Russia, hands down.

I know America is largely unaware that Central Asia exists, but seriously?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:22 PM

55. ...



Sid

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #55)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:22 PM

57. ...

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #55)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 09:09 AM

157. HAHAHAHAHA!!!

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Response to SidDithers (Reply #55)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:39 AM

166. Usually we have to wait until Monday morning for one of these ...

... free floating outrage threads.

Looks like Manny couldn't wait and took an early spin of the wheel with this one.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:28 PM

60. This isn't a contest

On can simultaneously deplore certain actions of the US and Russia at the same time...and there's not really any comparison anyway; your examples cited upthread? Libya: in response to Qaddafi using artillery on civilian populations in Homs and as a result of a UN vote; Iraq: US troops withdrawn, ending a war started under the previous administration; Afghanistan: US troops to withdraw this year, ending a war begun under the previous administration. Has the US taken any action over the past 5 years that's been almost universally condemned by the international community? (Russia's actions re Ukraine have been.)

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #60)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:30 PM

64. You may want to edit. Re: Homs is in Syria--not Libya.

 

Guess the name of the city he did bombard including civilians? It may be GOP's favorite word.

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Response to functioning_cog (Reply #64)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:33 PM

72. Oh right, Benghazi. Sorry, brainfart

but yeah, Russia's support of Assad in Syria has been kind of geopolitically destabilising as well.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:31 PM

68. The US..

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:32 PM

69. Hey, if there isn't a ruckus goin on in the world, we ain't doin our job...GO USA GO USA

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:32 PM

70. Can we have a both option?

Neither is really a bastion of restraint as far as fucking with people goes. Both sort of consider their own citizens fair game, too.

A good bit of the geopolitical strife is the result of both countries trying to one up the other decades ago.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:35 PM

73. Putin hates gays, yes, and he does not tolerate political dissent.

 

He sent Pussy Riot to Siberia for how long?

Anyone who opposes him is in trouble for sure.

The last independent TV station in Russia has been taken down.

Putin is KGB, and that's all he knows. He's taking Russia back to a police state.

If you want to know what country he's really invading, it's Russia herself.

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Response to amandabeech (Reply #73)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:45 PM

77. gays are just etc. nt

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #77)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:54 PM

91. You must have missed the use of the comma by Manny.

Use a comma to separate the elements in a series (three or more things)

"I'm not defending Putin, defending Russia's actions, hating on homosexuals, etc." right there four things.

The meaning of etc

etc.
et cetera.
Dictionary.com Unabridged
et cet·er·a [et set-er-uh, se-truh] Show IPA
adverb
and others; and so forth; and so on (used to indicate that more of the same sort or class might have been mentioned, but for brevity have been omitted): He had dogs, cats, guinea pigs, frogs, et cetera, as pets. Abbreviation: etc.
Origin:
1100–50; late Old English < Latin

Usage note
E t cetera , a Latin phrase, appears in English writing most frequently in its abbreviated form, etc . This phrase is used frequently in technical and business writing, somewhat less frequently in general informal writing, and sometimes in literary or formal writing. Expressions such as and so forth and and so on are useful substitutes.


You need to try harder

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Response to Autumn (Reply #91)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:56 PM

98. I think it's performance art.

 

The alternative is to horrifying to contemplate.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Reply #98)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 04:44 PM

181. No it's not performance art. They aren't that talented.

They want you gone. No matter what you post they are going to go after you. Reading their posts sure as hell does give a person a glimpse into the ugly side of DU.

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Response to arely staircase (Reply #77)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 03:11 PM

178. No, that is not what I meant at all.

 

I think that Putin's hatred of gays is despicable.

What I was trying to do is suggest that this man who is despicable in his hatred of gays is despicable in other ways, too.

No slight intended.

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Response to amandabeech (Reply #73)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:55 PM

95. Usually when people point out that "Putin is KGB" they fail to also

acknowledge that GHW Bush was CIA


Bush, as CIA Director

In 1976 Ford brought Bush back to Washington to become Director of Central Intelligence (DCI), replacing William Colby.[29] He served in this role for 357 days, from January 30, 1976, to January 20, 1977

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:45 PM

78. why limit to 5 years?

How does Big Bad Russia stack up to this:

Covert United States foreign regime change actions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_U.S._regime_change_actions

1 Prior to Cold War

1.1 Russia

2 During the Cold War

2.1 Communist states 1944–89
2.2 Syria 1949
2.3 Iran 1953
2.4 Guatemala 1954
2.5 Tibet 1955–70s
2.6 Indonesia 1958
2.7 Cuba 1959
2.8 Democratic Republic of the Congo 1960–65
2.9 Iraq 1960–63
2.10 Dominican Republic 1961
2.11 South Vietnam 1963
2.12 Brazil 1964
2.13 Ghana 1966
2.14 Chile 1970–73
2.15 Argentina 1976
2.16 Afghanistan 1979–89
2.17 Turkey 1980
2.18 Poland 1980–81
2.19 Nicaragua 1981–90
2.19.1 Destablization through CIA assets
2.19.2 Arming the Contras
2.20 Cambodia 1980–95
2.21 Angola 1980s
2.22 Philippines 1986

3 Since the end of the Cold War

3.1 Iraq 1992–96
3.2 Afghanistan 2001
3.3 Venezuela 2002
3.4 Iraq 2002–03
3.5 Haiti 2004
3.6 Gaza Strip 2006–present
3.7 Somalia 2006–07
3.8 Iran 2005–present
3.9 Libya 2011
3.10 Syria 2012–present
3.11 Ukraine 2013–2014

Do they do this?



This?

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:46 PM

79. Two wars, drone strikes in unoccupied countries, NSA spying on foreign government leaders...

Is this even a question?

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Response to PoliticalPothead (Reply #79)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:54 PM

94. Do you really think the Russians

 

aren't spying on world leaders?

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #94)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:58 PM

102. They sent out gift baskets with USB drives loaded with spyware.

They don't have anything remotely close to the massive spying apparatus the US gov has.

Try again.

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Response to PoliticalPothead (Reply #102)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:58 PM

104. That is awfully naive. nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #104)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:03 AM

111. Not as naive as...

asserting, with no evidence whatsoever, that Russia spies on foreign governments on the same scale as the US.

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Response to PoliticalPothead (Reply #79)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:51 AM

176. And nobody pays attention to Africa...

 

http://www.thenation.com/article/176045/us-militarys-pivot-africa

I point this out because this strategy represents the fulmination of the Rumsfeld Doctrine: wide deployment of special ops forces to vulnerable nations, backed up by rapid response forces in case things go sideways.

Here are all the places in Africa in which we are militarily active. Do we see similar meddling from Russia?:

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:52 PM

90. Stand with Big Vladdy


http://progressivepopulist.org/2014/03/07/stewart-blasts-fox-news-traitorous-hypocritical-praising-putin-video/

Jon Stewart Skewers Conservatives' Massive Crush On Vladimir Putin
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/stewart-skewers-conservative-love-for-putin--3

Analysis: Why Russia's Crimea move fails legal test
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024623531

With Journalists Under Attack, Crimea Faces ‘Information Crisis’ Ahead Of National Referendum
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024630765

Russia: Sochi Games Highlight Homophobic Violence
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/02/03/russia-sochi-games-highlight-homophobic-violence

Russian Federation: Prisoner of conscience beaten in court: Aleksey Polikhovich
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR46/016/2014/en

Russia: Violent attack on former Pussy Riot members must not be tolerated
http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/russia-violent-attack-former-pussy-riot-members-must-not-be-tolerated-2014-

The Russian authorities accelerate their assault on freedom of assembly
http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/EUR46/018/2014/en

Russia: Freedom of expression falls victim to the dramatic events in Ukraine’s Crimea
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/russia-freedom-expression-falls-victim-dramatic-events-ukraine-s-crimea-2014-03-03

Crimea: Attacks, ‘Disappearances’ by Illegal Forces
http://www.hrw.org/news/2014/03/14/crimea-attacks-disappearances-illegal-forces

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Response to ProSense (Reply #90)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:57 PM

101. Who's Your Vladdy?



Come on now...you know

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Response to SunsetDreams (Reply #101)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:58 PM

103. LOL! n/t

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Response to ProSense (Reply #90)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:25 AM

124. Thanks for those Pesky Details of Putin's Attacks, PS..



The Fight for Democracy in Ukraine: A Conversation with Center UA’s Svitlana Zalischuk

BY Micah L. Sifry

“In the third and last part of our conversation, I asked Zalischuk about the referendum about to take place in Russian-occupied Crimea and the massive Russian troop presence across the border from eastern Ukraine. “Russian invaded Ukraine,” she said, mincing no words about Vladimir Putin’s actions in the wake of Yanukovych’s departure from office. “The referendum itself doesn’t mean anything,” she added, noting that the choice was between “yes and yes,” and didn’t give people a choice of maintaining the status quo. “You can’t conduct a democratic referendum when a whole country is invaded and controlled by the troops of a foreign country.”

This is not a conflict between Ukraine and Russia, she said, it’s a conflict between the civilized world and totalitarianism, one that undermines the whole architecture of the European and world community. I asked her about the idea that the democracy movement in Ukraine was mostly strongest in the western part of the country and not so much from the eastern half, where Yanukovych got the majority of votes. She said the picture was more complicated, because Yanukovych himself had campaigned in favor of stronger ties with Europe when he was running for president.”

http://techpresident.com/news/wegov/24827/fight-democracy-ukraine-conversation-center-uas-svitlana-zalischuk




Travel Guide To Moscow


"First of all, Russia has become very corrupt throughout the last few years. Vladimir Putin has now been in office for twelve years and over those twelve years he has eliminated most elections, monopolized major media, and destroyed the democratic political system. Everyday people are brutally arrested for starting and participating in anti-Putin protests, while some are even detained simply for being nearby. Clearly, Putin’s actions are those of a dictator, and he plans to stay in power as long as possible."

http://sites.psu.edu/egorivanov/2014/01/31/travel-guide-to-moscow/

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Sun Mar 16, 2014, 11:57 PM

100. Actually, the GOP has. nt

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:01 AM

109. Too early to call

Give it another two weeks to complete the recount.

Sam

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:08 AM

113. Oh, I don't know............

 

...is this a trick question?!?!?!

{Horshack's light bulb finally goes off!}

- Ooo, Ooo, Ooo Mr. Kotter, Mr. Kotter I know!!! I know!!!

[font size=4]The one with the 900+ bases in other countries!?!?!?[/font]

K&R

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:09 AM

114. The Russkis are crass amateurs compared to us.

 

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #114)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:18 AM

120. At least we're #1 at something n/t

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Response to Tierra_y_Libertad (Reply #114)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 08:58 AM

156. +1,000,000

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:14 AM

117. Yea, we suck.

I assume that's what you wanted to hear?

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #117)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:24 AM

123. " obama sucks"

that's what he wants to hear . because obama is the worst president ever and so bad that 2008 election was worse than 1980 and 2000.

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Response to JI7 (Reply #123)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:32 AM

128. Pretty much. I'm just representing. As are you!

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Response to JI7 (Reply #123)

Tue Mar 18, 2014, 01:21 AM

186. he wants to revive the "not this shit again" graphic I'm all for it

 

someone help me open a photobucket account and PM me the graphic. Done.

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #117)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:31 AM

174. Its Manny's version of "American Exceptionalism".

The far right thinks America can do no wrong. "American Exceptionalism."

Meanwhile, Manny thinks America can do no right. "America sucks."

Two silly caricatures, fighting for relevance.

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Response to babylonsister (Reply #117)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 10:20 AM

202. Yeah, someone's in a rut

Poor guy.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:18 AM

119. Seems like both have wreaked their fair share of havoc.

 

Both service their oligarchs.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:20 AM

121. Both? There's no monopoly on chaos.

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Response to Fearless (Reply #121)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:58 AM

134. Careful that was some thinking there you just did.

 

Thinking is getting dangerous in these here parts.

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Response to Rex (Reply #134)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:17 AM

137. Cogito ergo sum

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 12:57 AM

133. Uh oh you said dim-witted...that is like

 


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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:14 AM

136. Who's wreaked more international havoc - Obama or Putin?

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Response to Drunken Irishman (Reply #136)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:26 AM

139. Obama shouldn't even be a on the list. To me it is Bush or Putin.

 

Remember Bush looked into Pootie Poots eyes and found a kindred spirit. Obama has started no wars to date and I bet he won't anytime in the next two years. Any takers let me know.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 01:37 AM

140. 5 Years?

 

Shit, over the last 35 years, arguably the last 60 years.

The US, hands down. Even when other countries are fucking with the world, we were right there fighting with them or against them. using covert methods at minimum. Many times we supplied the actual weaponry.

When everyone is pointing the finger at you, maybe it's time to take a look at yourself.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 02:14 AM

142. President Obama reeks of international havoc

No brainier, dude.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 05:14 AM

145. Russia: Syria and Ukraine, for starters. N.T.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 06:08 AM

147. Wouldn't want to say the wrong thing, Manny.

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Response to Enthusiast (Reply #147)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:36 AM

164. Either you are with us or you are with the half-naked guy

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 07:31 AM

150. lets lay it out.

 

Let me start by saying that I cannot stand Putin as much as I couldn't stand Bush.

OK now I have that out of the way, lets get some perspective here shall we:

What has Putin done in this particular issue with Crimea:
1) He inserted troops into Crimea under the pre-text of protecting Russian speaking population there.
2) After controlling Crimea, he instituted a 'vote' for the people to decide whether they wanted to join Russia or not.
3) With his troops there, the vote was always going to be favourable to his country.

(Note: all this was done with no one shot being fired, not one person being killed, only the suspicion that anyone that opposes the vote might mysteriously disappear.)


Now lets see what the Bush did in Iraq:
1) He inserted troops into Iraq under the pre-text of weapons of mass destruction.
2) After bombing Iraq into the stone age, Bush installed first an occupying power and then later a governing council that instituted a 'vote' to decide who becomes the government of Iraq.
3) With U.s Troops there and actively engaging in ongoing fighting in the country, the vote was always going to be favourable to the U.S.

(Note: all this was done whilst U.S troops were still shooting and bombing areas of the country, people were labelled 'terrorists' if critical of the process, and the whole process was policed by U.S troops and contractors who would never allow an anti-U.S government to be elected whilst they were still in the country).



Now, lets recap, Putin sent troops to Crimea and held a vote under influence of his troops, Bush sent a whole army into Iraq, bombed the heck out of it and held a vote whilst his troops were still killing Iraqis nationwide.

Many of you may say that just because Bush did it, that Putin is not justified in doing it to, and I agree with you. The problem is that you cannot have one nation guilty of something then turn around and lecture another nation for doing the very thing that the first nation did.

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Response to politicman (Reply #150)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:13 AM

171. +1

I don't draw a huge distinction between Bush and Obama, neocon or neoliberal. Bush put boots on the ground in Afghanistan and Iraq, while Obama seems to use more covert actions, destabilizing governments, funding 'rebels' ..

This table of world military budgets, where the U.S. outspends Russia 8:1 provides some insight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)


Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 08:26 AM

152. Containment of Russia

Certainly the West is entangled in countering or frustrating centuries old Russian needs and desires. It seems to me, rigged vote or no, that none of the players give a damn about the Crimean citizens. "Public support" outside the media and government hoopla is probably non-existent especialy when it comes to taking harsh action to redeliver the Crimean Russian back to the Ukraine.

If Russia wins this it intimidates everyone and advances the Russian empire rebuilding wherever Russians are found. This is similar I suppose to Hitlers beneficent annexing of various chunks of Europe. The rest of the West, I suppose, learned enough from Chamberlain not to SOUND like appeasement, but the results will be the same. Long term, these kind of shakedowns will increases under any dedicated or ambitious Russian regime.

The Ukraine, the government at least, will posture defiance. None of the governments with the possible exception of Putin who after all is giving the majority of Crimeans what they want- is doing anything but bluster indignantly over the failure of THEIR policy toward Russia.

Seeding and taking advantage of chaos has been everyone's game. Far better if actual democratic reform had been the chief and only goal. The rapid collapse of the Soviet Empire left the old lines intact, lines often formed to include a Russian balance. Instead of resolving these future dangers they were instead exploited on all sides and within. One part of the game plan no doubt would have been to overthrow Russia with new oligarchs or weaklings. That didn't happen. And still the posturing goes on.

For any all world leaders who advocate warlike gestures or retaliation sanity calls for global censure and having all their butts hauled to the world court, but the people these clowns profess to represent are unlikely to see that a simple apocalypse for the few will avoid calamity for the world.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 09:21 AM

158. But that's *different*! nt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:07 AM

160. Make it the past 12 years

then maybe you have a point.

However, one thing I'm interested in is, how do you feel about Republicans?

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Response to CJCRANE (Reply #160)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:29 AM

163. *Republicans* are ignorant.

 

They ignore facts and history.

The *Republican Party* is a plague.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:37 AM

165. Russia.

 

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:44 AM

167. Next up on wheel of outrage: "Who is more like Hitler, Obama or Putin?"

Hint: Obama.

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #167)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 10:54 AM

168. lol

(insert offensive, mean-spirited rolling smile guy here)

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Response to Bobbie Jo (Reply #168)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:04 AM

169. We need a smile guy wearing one of these ...

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Response to JoePhilly (Reply #167)

Sun Jul 20, 2014, 05:33 AM

198. Yes, put words in his mouth that he didn't say.

There's nothing dishonest about that tactic.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 11:56 AM

177. The US, and it makes no difference. Situations should be judged separately.

Because the US illegally invaded Iraq does not mean Putin is free to illegally invade Ukraine.

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Response to chrisa (Reply #177)

Tue Mar 18, 2014, 01:56 AM

188. sense!

you know, for the crowd that always chimes in about moral consistency, there's a surprising lack of in this particular case. i really don't understand it.

also, it's not like Russia's recent wars in the past decade have been models of humane action that we should have been emulating this entire time. two wrongs are just two wrongs.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Mar 17, 2014, 03:19 PM

179. Oops... never-mind.

Oops... never-mind. After reading the thread, I realize the question is not asked in sincerity. My mistake... I should have known better by now.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Mar 18, 2014, 01:25 AM

187. Who's done more for the international community lately? US or Russia?

 

We might stick our nose in shit where it doesn't belong, but we also help the rest of the world more than any other country.

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Tue Mar 18, 2014, 02:01 AM

189. But me hear you said Putin is good n' US are bad!!!

My brain hurts!

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #189)

Tue Mar 18, 2014, 09:00 PM

190. no, it's just Obama that is bad, you silly monkey.

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #190)

Tue Mar 18, 2014, 09:20 PM

191. Didn't your daddy ever tell you you are responsible for your own behavior? nt

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Response to Bonobo (Reply #191)

Wed Mar 19, 2014, 12:04 PM

194. Do you need "your Daddy" for something? Mine's long dead, but thanks.

 

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Response to bettyellen (Reply #194)

Wed Mar 19, 2014, 12:07 PM

195. Mine too. nt

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 10:12 AM

201. MSM and $$$$$$

 

An on running commercial for NWO, on behalf of the 1%, and the sycophants that glow and grow in it .

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Response to MannyGoldstein (Original post)

Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:33 AM

203. Russia.. hands down...

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