I have concluded bitcoin is a scam

[joeglow3]

Yesterday, my wife and I went to movie. On the way, we were listening to a baseball game, which happens to be on the local hate radio station. We went to movie and came out, not knowing if the game was over. When we started the car up, they were away at commercials, so we listened to see if the game came back on. First commercial: gold. Second commercial: emergency food supplies. Third commercial: bitcoin. They even compared it to gold. After that, hate radio started up and we turned the station.

This just sealed it for me.

[bravenak]

1. Heard it too.

Maybe on Lars Larson? Can't remember which show, they all sound the same to me.

[MindMover]

2. At least the ad gave you the clientele marketing group ...

Stupid Hate Mongers ...

[DrDan]

31. and a subset of DUers

[PowerToThePeople]

3. As whack as they are

I can not fault them with wanting to have food reserves and gold.

[Gravitycollapse]

4. Bitcoin, like gold, is not a scam. The way it is being used is a scam.

[joeglow3]

5. Gold is at least something tangible.

If I buy gold and it tanks, I can still make some nice jewelry. I can't say the same with bitcoin.

[Gravitycollapse]

8. Is a fiat currency also a scam?

It's not generally tangible either.

[CFLDem]

14. Yes

but at least fiat currency has legitimate backing with assets, and as a last resort- military power.

Last time I checked, bitcoin doesn't have a military or state assets; unless it wants to hire Blackwater.

[Gravitycollapse]

16. The entire point of cryptocurrency is anarchy of capital.

So it doesn't matter that it isn't backed by military states.

[CFLDem]

27. Well the value certainly has plenty of anarchy. n/t

[Maedhros]

52. Anarchy of capital...

...and money laundering.

[Gravitycollapse]

55. Of course it has great potential for abuse.

Last edited Mon Mar 17, 2014, 06:44 PM - Edit history (1)

And it needs to be overhauled in such a way that can allow it to be traced back to an individual.

[TeamPooka]

23. um you know tangible means it's physical and you can hold it right?

[Gravitycollapse]

35. Tangible can mean many things...

For instance, cryptocurrency does exist as a physical medium in the form of electrical charges. Does that make it tangible? Potentially. But it depends on how we define tangible in the first place. It does not always mean something that can br held in your hand.

[TeamPooka]

36. You can try but you cannot redefine words and language.

Electricity is not tangible.

Let me help you a little so you don't sound so....uninformed in the future.

tan·gi·ble
adjective
1.
capable of being touched; discernible by the touch; material or substantial.
2.
real or actual, rather than imaginary or visionary: the tangible benefits of sunshine.
3.
definite; not vague or elusive: no tangible grounds for suspicion.
4.
(of an asset) having actual physical existence, as real estate or chattels, and therefore capable of being assigned a value in monetary terms.
noun
5.
something tangible, especially a tangible asset.

[Gravitycollapse]

38. First off, there is no need for the attitude.

Second, the definitions for tangible offer several potential meanings. Something which exists in a physical medium is potentially tangible as it is an physical actuality and not simply a concept. There are two parts to each object in linguistics. The concept and the object. The concept is the thought of the object or the label or whatever it is that is being said of the object. The object is the literal physical entity.

Cryptocurrency exists as more than a concept. It is also a physical object or collection of physical objects in the form of electrical charges.

You can capture that charge and move it about. Which means it is capable of being handled albeit with something like a memory card or hard drive. But it still has a physical existence.

It certainly possesses a greater physical existence than credit. Which really truly is nothing more than concept until it has been paid.

[TeamPooka]

43. Attitude required for such obtuseness about what tangible currency really is. Not what you pretend

it is.

[Gravitycollapse]

46. Nope no attitude needed. Have a great day.

[TeamPooka]

47. You too. Just don't go making up word definitions anymore.

[Gravitycollapse]

53. Never made up a definition.

Again, the attitude isn't needed. You've made your argument and I've made mine and if you don't want to be respectful, then you shouldn't respond at all.

[TeamPooka]

61. Oh please. Don't lie. "Tangible can mean many things" started this.

It doesn't and you were wrong.
I'm quoting you there.
Don't get mad cause I wasn't the only one who called you out for being wrong.
Then you want to deny or obfuscate out of it so you call me disrespectful.
Whatever.
Enjoy your state of denial.

[Gravitycollapse]

62. I was never wrong about anything. And you are attempting to get around that by being rude.

Tangible is a multifaceted word. It can be used in different capacities. Just as the very definitions you posted prove.

Cryptocurrency is tangible in at least two ways. It literally physically exists as a unique object. And it is something which holds real value. Which are two forms of tangible that are defined in your own posts.

If you want to present an argument, present an argument. Don't run around the thread trying to mock me with other posters. That's childish even for an internet forum. If this were a real life circumstance, you wouldn't be acting this way because acting this way in the real world would be viewed as an oddity of immaturity. Especially if we were in face to face conversation.

"Enjoy your state of denial." - Whether or not I am correct, my beliefs are sincerely held and are not merely designed to maintain personal deception. If you respect the intellectual independence of others, which I'm beginning to suspect you really truly don't, you would be able to disagree with someone without attacking them.

[TeamPooka]

63. says the guy who satrted the name calling

[snooper2]

37. "cryptocurrency does exist as a physical medium in the form of electrical charges"

You wrote that LOL

[Gravitycollapse]

39. Is it going to be possible to have a civil, meaningful discussion with you?

[snooper2]

40. not sure, you keep making me laugh :) maybe we can talk about something different

like fear of heights!


I literally get a chill up my spine sitting watching a freaking youtube video lol

[TeamPooka]

44. exactly. It's hilarious.

[FSogol]

50. Ones and zeroes are real too!

[Gravitycollapse]

54. Ones and zeros are the symbols for the physical electrical charges.

Symbol and object.

[FSogol]

57. Twisty word game!

[Gravitycollapse]

59. It's important to recognize that a Bitcoin actually exists in a physical system.

Rather than simply being a concept, a thought. It does exist. It also has a unique identity which can never exist for any other Bitcoin.

Bitcoin itself is not a scam. The way the "banking" system works can very easily be made into a scam. And the ease with which it seems Bitcoins can be stolen is a very serious problem.

[FSogol]

65. Do the people who had their bitcoins secured in Mt. Gox or Flexcoin agree with you?

[Gravitycollapse]

66. If they have an ounce of sense they should. They invested in an untraceable currency.

Which I admit is nothing I would ever personally do. But that is an issue I take with the way Bitcoins are handled, not necessarily with the actual Bitcoins themselves.

The system very obviously needs some serious overhauling.

[FSogol]

67. So you approve of a currency that is designed to circumvent our government's control?

Democrats, liberals, and progressives believe that the government is a force to aid in life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If we, like the libertarians and their ilk take away the dollar and the tax revenue it generates, what is left? How do the promoters of bitcoin differ from the nutty gold bugs who are scared of paying their taxes? Or want to commit crimes without government oversight? No good will come of these currencies, imo. The fact that libertarians love them only reinforces the point in my mind.

[Gravitycollapse]

68. I'm not going to trash the entire concept of cryptocurrency because libertarians like it.

That would be a ridiculous thing to do.

[Art_from_Ark]

70. "Nutty gold bugs"

I have been interested in the gold market since 1968, when the official US price was $35 an ounce. Today, it is more than $1350/ounce. In the time between 1968 and today, fiat money issued by governments around the world has often become worthless (Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, Yugoslavia, Zimbabwe, to name a few), or reduced to a fraction of its 1968 purchasing power. For example, US$35 in 1968 had the same purchasing power as US$235 today. But $35 invested in an ounce of gold in 1968 would be worth (theoretically) $1350 today. That is the appeal of gold around the world-- not tax evasion.

[joeglow3]

71. $35 invested in Berkshire in 1968 is worth $175,000

What is your point?

[Art_from_Ark]

73. And $35 invested in Woolworth's in 1968 would be worth zero today

In fact, a lot of stocks that were around in 1968 are no longer with us. And practically none of the stocks that were in the Dow in 1968 are there today.

Investing in stocks is a crap shoot-- you can get lucky, but a lot of times you can lose your shirt. You have to also remember that people in other countries may have lived through tough economic times, in which their local currencies were severely deflated or even demonetized. Unless they are fairly wealthy, those people are not going to be investing in US stocks as a way to maintain wealth. But they do know that gold has been used as a monetary medium for millennia, and always has value, regardless of what paper currencies and stocks do.

[joeglow3]

74. Actually, 35 invested in the Dow would be close

And most people believe gold is extremely overpriced. The vast majority of millionaires are people who invest, consistently, over a period spanning decades. This money is not inherited or made by being lucky.

[Art_from_Ark]

75. How much of that money invested in the Dow

would be eaten up with brokers' and maintenance fees?

And who are "most people" who think that gold is "overpriced"? What sort of expertise in the field do they have? What sort of personal interest do they have in the gold market?

[joeglow3]

79. Vanguard index funds are extremely low cost

Most likely less than I would pay in gold markups.

[Art_from_Ark]

80. Did Vanguard even exist in 1968?

And even if they did, I doubt that their cumulative fees over that time would be less than what you would pay in gold markups, since the typical markup for a strictly bullion gold coin is usually 10% or less (around 4% for full ounce coins), which is paid one time.

[joeglow3]

81. They exist today

I wasn't even born in 1968, so I don't have to worry about that. You keep on investing in gold. I will keep 5% of my holdings in precious metals and that is it. Things have worked out pretty well for me.

[Art_from_Ark]

82. And things have worked out pretty well for me

with gold, and silver, and platinum, but not with stocks.

[brush]

76. So you contend they are real, tangible . . .

but would never "personally do"?

So why keep on with the back and forth about Bitcoins being tangible?

[MindMover]

7. Can I use bitcoin to make teeth ... ? or make beautiful jewelry ....?

or a thousand other useful things that no other metal on earth can do ...

no bitcoin is an idea ...

and I just came up with a better one ...

it is called

[Gravitycollapse]

9. So does not being in an easily useable physical medium make anything a scam?

Or only cryptocurrency?

[MindMover]

10. I got some Dune spice melange that will knock your socks off ...

[Lancero]

20. No other metal?

You could make teeth with other metals. They would just require a lot more work to maintain.

And as for jewelry, silver and platinum say hi.

[joeglow3]

32. I want a nice bitcoin necklace

[Lancero]

45. K.

[img][/img]

[joeglow3]

48. Nice. But I tire of it

How do I melt it back down and shove it back into the computer?

[joshcryer]

11. Bitcoin is quite literally a pyramid scheme.

The value of early adopter "money" is quite literally worth more as more people adopt it.

[Gravitycollapse]

13. That is quite literally the function of pretty much all currency valuation.

[joshcryer]

15. The value of currency is the level of trust it has in transactions.

Not its scarcity as time goes on. Bitcoin was intentionally made to fight fractional reserve monetary policies.

[bhikkhu]

17. The value of currency is also its utility

...which leads to cash economies being convenient and efficient, and credit based economies having a large capacity for growth and adaptability.

But, based on that, bitcoin has very limited utility compared to other means. Anyone who has tried to transfer money from one country to another should be familiar with what a pain it is, and bitcoin (once you have fund in that system) is very easy to transfer. What it isn't is fast - it still takes longer to confirm transfers than most people would consider reasonable, which makes it useless for most day to day business. Other virtual currencies would work better, but a whole infrastructure is needed before any could really catch on.

Of course, that infrastructure is being rapidly built, but I'm not particularly interested in being one of the initial speculators myself. Perhaps it will work, perhaps not. I find myself on the same fence as when Apple first went public, and I couldn't quite generate the interest or confidence to put any money into it. In this case there's too many candidates, and I don't think bitcoin is the best one.

[joshcryer]

18. Yeah I don't even think the Bitcoin crypto base is useable.

I'm sure someone will invent something better eventually.

[TeamPooka]

24. bitcoins are digital tulips. good luck with them.

[ElboRuum]

12. Well, how is it being used that makes it a scam?

Monetary systems are predicated on trust in value. With national currencies, those trusts are placed with the issuing governments to protect the value of those currencies, some are backed by tangibles (like gold) but even the value of gold itself is predicated on an agreement between individuals that it has a value (whatever it is from one moment to the next) and that its value can be traded for other things. While in the case of the government issued currencies, this guarantee of value and exchangeability is often backed by law, it is not a necessity in the basic concept of 'money'.

People can trade in Magic cards as a form of currency, so long as all participants in the system recognize the value and agree to support them as exchangeable assets. In other words, the system is viable so long as Magic cards have predictable value and can be exchanged for goods and services, and it becomes non-viable when Magic cards have wildly unpredictable values and the lack of trust engendered by the fluctuations makes participants reticent to accept them in trade.

Given all of this, what makes the way that Bitcoin is being used a scam? Is it being purported as a viable monetary system when it is not? Are the participants failing to honor the trade portion of the agreement? Is it being held up as stable currency when it is not?

[alittlelark]

19. ^^^ This ^^^

....think about it....

[Arkana]

42. Bitcoin is a scam. It has no backing, no insured worth other than CPU cycles.

People who invest in it are getting screwed out of their actual money, and rightly so.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

6. No limp dick cures or Gracie Ju Jitsu ads?

Oh yeah, that was my father in law's Newsmax magazine I read while at his house.

Tea baggers = limp dick little twerps who had sand kicked in their faces as children and now they want revenge on society.

[FSogol]

29. Or reserve mortgages?

I guess if you are going to spend seed money advertising your grift, RW radio is the place to do it.

[RandySF]

21. Sounds more like you were listening to the Glenn Beck show.

[MattSh]

22. It wasn't that long ago that people showed the same lack of imagination about computers.

"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers."
Thomas J Watson, President of IBM, 1943

"There is no reason for any individual to have a computer in his home." Ken Olsen, co-founder of Digital Equipment Corporation, 1977

"640kB should be enough for anyone."
Bill Gates, 1981

Bitcoin may or may not survive, but the concept of crypto-currencies will grow and evolve.

[joshcryer]

25. It has to be fiat based.

Not necessarily government or a central control mechanism, mind you, but based upon internal protocol aspects that are able to be nurtured by the overall exchanges and individual actors. A sort of logical tug of war preventing exchanges from having the kind of power Mt.gox had and allowing the decentralized users the ability to exchange at will.

Of course, this protocol would be immeasurably more complex than Bitcoin ever thought about being (loans, bonds, escrow, credit, possibly interest but that is a relic of capitalism and unnecessary; and to prevent infinite printing of money there are other existing proof of work concepts than searching for hashes). And, to top it off, most crypto-currency supporters are libertarian-capitalists, and find the idea of fiat absolutely repugnant. It's actually what makes Bitcoin rather simple in retrospect, because it's simply "representative money." Looking at the protocol it is extremely simple (the math behind it of course is complex, but that goes without saying when you are looking at proof-of-work stuff).

But yeah I agree with you though I do think Bitcoin is doomed to failure.

[Democracyinkind]

26. Guilt by vague association is not the strongest of arguments. nt

[Warren Stupidity]

28. no, really?

[FSogol]

30. What's funny is libertarians love them some bitcoin.

As do money launderers, child pornographers, human traffickers, drug cartels, etc, etc

I'll laugh and laugh when they lose their shirts.

[closeupready]

49. oo, you forgot Satanists, traitors, idolators, and puppy eaters.

Just want to make sure you didn't miss anyone.

[Gravitycollapse]

60. Greendot cards are also used very often for money laundering. But bankless debit cards...

still serve a genuine purpose besides being part of criminal activity.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

33. Completely virtual, unregulated money contained within hackable computer systems?

A scam? You think?

[DiverDave]

34. just now?

...

[Arkana]

41. What tipped you off?

[Gothmog]

51. The fact that this currency is unregulated lends itself to scams

There is no regulation of this fake currency and there have been failures/bankruptcies already for bitcoin exchanges.

[BlueStreak]

78. Those who control it will start adding transaction fees -- totally unregulated

The two big claims are:

1) transaction anonymity (great for drug traffickers)
2) low cost transactions

This is a system that grows increasingly complex over time. In order to complete a transaction, the transaction has to be validated by going back over the complete history of the various coins involved in the transaction. That was easy at first and there were lots of people doing that for free and fun, because their main interest was in mining free coins.

But now it has become exponentially harder to mine new coins -- a practical impossibility for most people. So there is no longer a free ride. Those that keep machines running to validate the transactions will want to get paid, and that overhead just keeps going up and up.

Another thing that most people aren't aware of is that clearing a transaction can take 10 minutes (for those people competing to run the validating transactions to do their work). Some merchants of low value merchandise accept the risk and confirm the transactions immediately. But if this thing survives, there will be enough counterfeiters that even small transactions will need to be verified before ending the transaction. And this all grow exponentially over time.

This is a pyramid scheme on several levels.

[Shankapotomus]

56. That's so weird

I just recently came to the same conclusion about Enron. You think anybody knows?

[gulliver]

58. It could be purposely insecure.

Government-backed currency comes with traditional, well-established legal processes, not to mention legions of people with badges and guns who send people to prison. Bitcoin encourages owner anonymity, has an ad hoc, idiosyncratic banking system. Moreover, a lot of the people who trade in it are unsavory types whose losses evoke no sympathy. Of course, it is going to be more vulnerable to theft.

The people who started bitcoin may have known they were creating something that would be easier to steal. Maybe they even wanted it that way.

[OilemFirchen]

64. I noted that on another thread.

Every failure of a bitcoin exchange or theft of bitcoins rapidly, albeit temporarily, inflates the "value" of the "currency". Some people have all the luck, eh?

[grahamhgreen]

72. Bitcoin is backed by NOTHING.

[Warpy]

77. I think it might have originated as a decent idea

You know, sort of an alternative banking system but with fake money you could buy and then use to buy real things. Paypal without their problems.

Scammers then discovered it and turned it into a Ponzi scheme.