My view as a resident of Kiev Ukraine - 3/17 edition

[MattSh]

As a resident of Kiev, I'd just like to give a couple of my perspectives. They might mean something; or they might mean nothing at all. Who can tell?

The day after the ban on Russian TV was announced, my wife called up our cable provider and said "if there are no Russian channels, I don't need your cable service anymore." Our cable company then proceeded to upgrade us to their premium package for free for the next six months. Plus, we still have each and every one of the Russian channels. Her aunt reports that two blocks away, her Russian channels are gone. The only difference being, we called and complained; her aunt had not. We never expected to continue to have the Russian channels.

Here in Kiev, most of the people we know are pro-Russian. Yeah, I know, that's not supposed to be that way. So says the official propagandists. The pro-Maidan propaganda here has been strong though. My wife today just returned from the local clinic. She reports that the Doctor, the nurse, and the receptionist of all pro-Russian. Now there is no doubt a strong pro-Ukrainian thing going on here too; first because of Ukrainianization policies since independence, and second, there's a whole lot more opportunity in Kiev than in the west of Ukraine, so there's a good number of west Ukrainians here.

The main English language newspaper in Kiev, the Kyiv Post, is disgustingly pro-Maidan and pro-coup. Now, the Kyiv Post has not had the best of reputations among a good portion of the expat community. In my eyes, the events of the last three months have hurt its reputation greatly. Not only has its coverage been very one-sided, they've gone beyond that and were basically the whole trumpet section for the protests. But in the end, I think the Kyiv Post will do well. I think early on they realized if they chose the correct side, the newspaper would survive. If they chose incorrectly, their financial problems would catch up to them quite quickly. But more than that, I highly suspect the US Embassy played a role in helping them to choose the "correct" side.

Facebook, well, it is Facebook, it's just not a place where you even want to hint at an alternative opinion. It took me a while to figure out exactly why it was just so lopsided. People with last names like Mann, Parke, O'Ehley, McAlister, and Wheat. Not the usual surnames from this part of the world. The most likely explanation is a State Department recruited numerous Ukrainian-American organizations whose job it is to go out to Facebook and post the official State Department story. Though there might be more to it than that.

Now, about the propaganda. There are two totally different yet parallel worlds trying to occupy the same space. Now, the propaganda is basically used to reinforce everybody's particular point of view. I don't believe that it is leading anybody to switch from one side to the other. But to listen to the stories that come out from the opposite side can certainly be an amusing distraction. Recently I heard recently is Mr. Putin and Mr. Yanukovitch have summer cottages on the same street in Russia, likely paid for by Mr. Yanukovitch. And then there's the one where Putin talks about Sharia law. Funny, I though only US politicians did that.

These event will definitely split families and end friendships. One of my wife's few pro-Maidan acquaintances felt compelled this last weekend to send her an email telling her to "wake up" to which was attached to a very romanticized view of Stephan Bandera. My wife's father had never shown any strong Ukrainian feelings in the past, but since his girlfriend is pro-Maidan, so is he, obnoxiously so at times.

This recent situation in Crimea, I believe, is a godsend. First, it has permitted the situation here in Kiev to assume a certain level of normalcy. And I've been thinking recently that how much better the 20th century would have been if, within the first couple of months of Hitler's rule in Germany, someone had decided it was time to put an end to his nonsense and went ahead and invaded Germany. Maybe people in the states don't learn from history, but it certainly looks like Mr. Putin has.

A couple stories about Right Sector but I want to pass on. It may be possible that it's propaganda, though I suspect that if these stories are not correct, that it's more related to the children's game of telephone. You know the one with the first child whispers something to the second child who whispers it to the third child and by the time it gets down to the 10th child it's a much different story. So here goes:

This a building just down the street from us that has just been broken into for the second time in two weeks. (That's confirmed). This latest incident was apparently performed by Right Sector, who were attempting to free a bank of some of its assets. Most banks here apparently don't keep a lot of assets on-site, but this one did, so they attempted to break in and security on-site barricaded themselves into a safe room and called the police. In normal times, Berkut would respond to these types of calls. But there is no Berkut anymore. So they had to figure out whose responsibility it was. But that's not the end of it. Police eventually showed up and removed the perpetrators, and shortly thereafter release them to the protest camp at Maidan.

The second story is that Right Sector is running an extortion scam. They go off to business owners and for one-time payment of $10,000, they are promised that they will be able to run their business in peace. Or at least until the next time Right Sector decides they need more money. And with breakaway sentiment growing in various parts of the country, it's likely the scam will continue. This in the end will only force the economic situation in Ukraine to go downhill far quicker than it would normally have gone. These extortion course will be passed on to buyers, at the same time that austerity sets it. An ugly situation will just continue to get uglier.

It is difficult to determine truth from rumor around here these days, but I'll pass along something if it seems relevant.

[dipsydoodle]

1. As our Man In Havana as it were

Its always interesting to read your views.

[quinnox]

2. Cool to see a report from the ground over there. I'm sure someone will be right along to correct you

though, who happens to have relatives living there, and talks to them on the phone constantly. Yea, and I just got back from a trip to the moon, and have many relatives who go there for vacation.

But seriously, neat to see a glimpse of what is really going on over there.

[MattSh]

39. Yep, the view is always best from 5000 miles away.

Had to include that. You never know.

[joeybee12]

47. Which is probably where you are...

What utter bullshit you just posted.

[MattSh]

112. Oooh, another skeptic.

Maybe one of these will convince you?

Or maybe you don't care and neither should I.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024590401

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024590404

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024590408

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024590417

[levp]

93. Yea, real funny. Not.

Who do you think I'm going to believe: anonymous poster on DU or my mother- and sister-in-law?

Also, here is Volia TV's explanation of what happened to Russian channels (in Russian, use Google Translate):

(...)
Changes in the packages we make (are) based on a survey of subscribers, which is why since March 2, we started a survey of subscribers in each city where the service is available.
(...)
We, alone, before a decision by the National Council, made changes to the TV packages, suspending access to the unencrypted channels "RTR Planeta", "First Channel. World Wide Web "and" NTV Mir &quot TV channel" Russia 24 "is not available) in all cities of Ukraine, where subscribers voted for such changes. In addition, the channels were upgraded to the more expensive packages in Kiev, the distribution of which is based on an individual subscription.
(...)
Below is the results of voting subscribers by region.

Question: Do you consider it necessary to (move) the Russian news channels in(to) packages of pay-TV (digital packets) :

Cherkasy: for - 31% - against 69%;
Dnepropetrovsk: for - 64% - against 36%;
Donetsk: for - 16% - against 84%;
Kharkiv: for - 46% - against 54%;
Khmelnitsky: for - 70% - against 30%;
Kiev: for - 59% - against 41%;
Kiev region: for - 25% - against 75%;
Lviv: for - 74% - against 26%;
Poltava: for - 59% - against 41%;
(Rivne): for - 70% - against 30%;
Ternopil: for - 100%, against - 0%;
Vinnitsa: for - 78% - against 22%;
Zaporozhye: for - 59% - against 41%.

Can I demand that Cablevision give me free PRESS TV?

[MattSh]

116. Believe what you want.

That's not what Volia said when we spoke to them on the phone.

[levp]

128. I found their statement in less than a minute

Even though you didn't mention company name (my MIL has the same cable provider).
It is right on their home page: " target="_blank">

[JackRiddler]

193. What a sick rationale...

So they used the device of a subscriber poll as a justification for shutting people out of media they previously received. Look at Kiev, where 41% still wanted what they had been getting - fuck them, some other people who didn't watch those channels voted these away.

So, for example, if a majority white neighborhood says they don't want BET for free, tough shit for those who do, right?

This isn't even a rational business plan, but contributes nicely to a divide and rule strategy.

(Cablevision shouldn't be making any of those decisions. Technologically there's no reason why you're not getting every channel on earth for free if you want to view it and the channel wants to provide its programming.)

[levp]

194. It is a common practice...

... for a cable company to decide themselves which channels are available in which package.
And if they want to stop carrying CBS, for example, there is not much you can do as a subscriber (other than to switch, that is).
You do remember TWC/CBS dispute, right?

[JackRiddler]

195. That was about money.

This is happening in the middle of an ethno-nationalist conflict, and is almost certainly political.

[levp]

196. That's why they went an extra mile...

...and polled their subscribers.
Much better than Time Warner, who polled only their asses.

[JackRiddler]

197. You've got to be kidding.

So if they polled a majority white city and then canceled the black channel, that would be fine with you? This is an excuse for giving way to ethnic pressures.

[levp]

198. They didn't...

...cancel anything, rather moved channels broadcasting from Russia to a paid tier.

Just like here in Brooklyn - Russian package exists, but costs extra:
Optimum Russian Package
"The Russian package can be added to your monthly cable bill for just $29.95/month. Individual channel selections are also available for $14.95/month."

[JackRiddler]

199. Yeah yeah, I get it.

Not "canceled," just from the free side.

Just like the Russian language wasn't abolished -- only abolished as a language of the state.

The timing just happens to collaborate with the political events. To call it a coincidence doesn't excuse them stoking the ethnic antagonisms, whether out of political pressure, profit motive, or stupidity.

[JVS]

159. You totally called it.

Good one.

[magical thyme]

3. thank you for your view from the front row seat...

I hope everything works our for Ukraine's best interests.

[snagglepuss]

17. I think it is a very unreliable post as the OP doesn't disclose his

nationality. Many Russians living in Ukraine hate Ukrainians, hate that Ukraine asserted its independence from Russia. THe source of the hatred is that when Ukraine was a part of the USSR, Russians held dominent positions and Ukrainians were forced to speak Russian. Given the OP's high opinion of what has transpired in Crimea, I suspect he is an ethnic Russian and therefore deeply biased.

[magical thyme]

29. the OP is not ethnic Ukraine. I see you're badgering him below to reveal his ethnicity

which strikes me as irrelevent, since he has admitted he is neither Russian nor Ukrainian.

[snagglepuss]

32. Hardly baggering him. Why not disclose potential bias? The OP is

profoundly biased so to ask what his vested interests might be is reasonable and hardly baggering. If someone in the the US wrote an OP supporting Jim Crow, I hardly think you would find it out of place to ask whether the poster was white.

[MattSh]

42. I was born in the USA.

My father was Lithuanian, my mother German and Irish. There. Better?

Now my wife? She considers herself Russian, though her mother is Russian and her father is Ukrainian.

[magical thyme]

48. and he answered your question.

In your example, if the poster replied, no I am not white, does that mean you now are entitled to know his exact ethnicity?

The OP answered your question about his ethnicity. He is neither Russian nor Ukrainian. Sorry that wasn't enough for you.

The poster hasn't attempted to portray himself as unbiased. He states his own feelings unequivocally.

But since you're so interested in ethnicity, why don't *you *start by telling us *your* ethnicity.

[snagglepuss]

53. My father's background was Ukrainian and Turkish. My mother's background, Welsh and French.

[magical thyme]

56. thank you. that reveals your potential bias.

just to let you know mine, my mother's background was Greek and my father's Serbian/Croatian. But I never met any grandparents on my father's side and only limited extended family, with no exposure to their culture. So I grew up 100% American, but with exposure to Greek culture.

[snagglepuss]

67. If I make a wildly pro-Ukrainian OP then my background ought to be

disclosed.

[newthinking]

167. The entire media is making wildly Pro-nationalist Ukrainian Ops.

That is why people like to hear reports from other POV.

[snagglepuss]

182. There is no equivalency. The furor of posts supporting Ukraine stem

from Russia's corrupt and despicable actions in another country.

[newthinking]

183. Actually I was talking in general about everything going on in Ukraine

[Tommy_Carcetti]

41. The OP is engaging in blatant Putin apology, though.

Even going so far as to compare the nascent interim Ukrainian government to Hitler (!).

[sabrina 1]

71. When will Ukraine allow the people to vote so they have an elected

rather than an appointed government?

[geek tragedy]

75. Rt.com didn't mention that, did they?

The answer is May 25th.

[sabrina 1]

107. Yes, as a matter of fact, they did. Which is why I asked the question, why there is

no election. May is months away, why are they waiting? Are they afraid of an election?

Btw, were you among those who tried to intimidate Dems for using Al Jazeera as a source of excellent news during the Bush years? It didn't work out too well, only made Al Jazeera more popular.

It remind me of wing nuts trying to intimidate Dems with Al Jazeera.

As I just told someone else, I donated to Al Jazeera after Wing Nuts called us 'terrorist supporters' for watching it, in THEIR name, and told them so. Lol! That was fun to watch, I think there were threats of being turned in to Homeland Security etc.

Mockery is a tactic of those who feel powerless. Who want to control other people but can't. Al Jazeera only became MORE popular due to their censorship attempts. Same thing will happen with RT. Censorship is an evil thing, even a hint of it needs to be pushed back. So in your name, I will go watch the news on RT in a couple of hours and in theirs, Al Jazeera. We are also getting CCTV for another perspective, so I will check that out also, no doubt another commie propaganda channel financed by the Chinese Govt.

And then there's the Koch Funded Corporate Media here which would, never, ever 'catapult the propaganda'. Lol, I'm seeing an awful lot of concern over people's reading habits on DU lately, a forum that at one time supported complete freedom of the press. Interesting.

[geek tragedy]

108. why are they waiting two months to hold an election?

I dunno, maybe so they can actually hold an election, with campaigns and candidates and ballots and procedures put in place.

Did you really not think of that?

[sabrina 1]

111. Why are the making decisions that will affect Ukrainians

so adversely, handing the country over to the IMF/World Bank eg, when they are not an elected government and do not have any input regarding these issues? Seems to a lot of people that is WHY they are rushing to do this, BEFORE the people have any say in their own future.

So on whose authority, since it is not the people's authority, are they making these decisions?

[geek tragedy]

114. they are not handing the country over to the IMF.

The government elected in May can decide what they want relations with Russia and the US/EU and IMF to be like.

In the interim, bills gotta get paid. People need to eat, government needs to function. So, yeah they're going to ask for aid. Especially after Yanukovych and his cronies stole billions from the government.

[sabrina 1]

123. Maybe they should go after the wealthy oligarchs as Iceland did, and find some

of the money they have hidden offshore. But then, that has not happened anywhere in Europe or here, has it?

As for paying bills etc, perhaps they should have thought about that, waited for the election which was coming up, before toppling a functioning elected government. And yes, they are handing the country over to the IMF/World Bank who were there the day after the toppling of the elected government.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

115. Are you suggesting that Ukraine sit in anarchy until elections could be held?

How is that even possible?

[sabrina 1]

122. Your question has zero to do with my comment. My question was

why is an unelected government making decisions regarding the country's future, re the IMF/World Bank, Austerity etc, without any imput from the people?

If they can wait months for an election, they can wait for the people to decide their own future. So why the rush BEFORE the people have any say in their own future?

[newthinking]

170. Actually, since they destroyed the opposition and scared the witts out of anybody who might want to

run. Not to mention burned their offices etc. It's too soon to get anywhere near a fair election.

[davidpdx]

177. I think Russia is going to take over Ukraine before then

They won't need elections once they have Putin. I'm sure all the pro-Russians will be cheering then.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

76. In May of this year.

Next question.

[MattSh]

120. May 25th, for president only.

A presidency with reduced powers. It will have minimal effect on government policy... unless he/she finds some way around it like both Yushchenko and Yanokovitch did.

[sabrina 1]

131. Iow, the unelected government will remain in power.

That's not a very hopeful prospect. Thanks for the information.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

132. They are the elected government.

They were elected before Yanukovych abdicated and left for Russia.

It's not as though the entire Rada fled Ukraine. Just Yanukovych.

Do you understand what happened?

[sabrina 1]

155. Correction, there was a coup and Yanukovitch was driven from power.

We have no clue how the vast majority of Ukrainians feel about what happened in Kiev. No matter how disappointed in him people were, some things are worse than waiting a few months for an election to oust an elected politician in a civilized manner.

Yes, I've read press reports from all over the world on what actually did happen, various different reports on who was doing the shooting etc. I wasn't there, and I assume neither were you. What we do know is those protests are beginning to follow a pattern where the US 'has interests' whatever they are.

From Libya to Syria, to Ukraine, it's almost identical, something that is being noted by a whole lot of people. Starting out with unarmed, peaceful protests which somehow turn violent, then blame the 'leader' and never any resolution until coincidentally the US gets WHAT it wants and the Government it wants. The people rarely have any say in it.

Hillary Clinton did explain what she called our new way of fighting, although why we are always 'fighting' is a mystery to more and more people. She called them 'proxy wars' where the US doesn't put actual 'boots on the ground' but where they use 'proxies' to get the 'job done'. She was quite proud of it actually.

The people of Ukraine may have grown angry at the president they elected, but no one asked them if they wanted a violent revolution to drive him from office.

So, considering what has happened SINCE the last election, and considering how those events may have changed the views of many people, no one wants to see their governments overthrown this way, in order to allow them to make those feelings known, it is necessary to hold general elections.

And of course the real question is why they were in such a rush NOT to wait for elections. These questions won't go away, no matter how many 'explanations' or 'excuses' are made.

And additionally, for the people of the US, the question is, 'why are we once again interfering in a country that is none of our business, and where did all this money they are 'investing' come from when we have been told we have NO money, not even for children's lunches.

[Progressive dog]

146. The Parliament of Ukraine was elected in 2012,

they voted to oust the president. Elections for a new president will be held in May.

[newthinking]

169. How did I miss that

I assumed it was for both Parliament and Presidency.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

179. The Parliament didn't flee the country.

Only the President did.

[newthinking]

184. No, they fled the parliment

Or they resigned out of fear for themselves and their families.

[newthinking]

168. In May, but no way it can be fair. They destroyed the opposition parties -

Last edited Tue Mar 25, 2014, 03:51 PM - Edit history (2)

and they know full well that they will have a severe advantage. Not to mention, after they went violent on those who opposed them without due process and allow neo-nazi thugs to let the opposition know the score, how is that going to be in any way a representative poll.

I would argue that people going to the polls in Western Ukraine and Kiev will be far more fearful than those in Ukraine .

[Babel_17]

175. That stood out to me as well.

I don't see how the Ukraine has mimicked Hitler's policy of annexing other territory. I don't see the Ukraine as claiming foreign territory has distressed compatriots that need "rescuing" by way of invasion. I don't see the Ukraine violating a treaty they signed that guaranteed the sanctity of another nation's borders.

Putin however is acting like he read Hitler's playbook.

[JackRiddler]

200. That's not Putin apology.

To say bad things about the putsch government in Ukraine is not the same as saying good things about Putin. That's false dichotomy. Putin could still also be bad. It's sad you've fallen for a "with us or against us," new cold war mentality.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

201. Commending Putin on "knowing his history" when he makes a land grab?

And comparing the Ukrainian interim government?

Yes, this particular instance is Putin apology.

[bemildred]

4. Well, you're a Putin apologist now, but thanks for the reports anyway.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

5. I guess you meant to say that you're anti-Putin, and not much else matters? nt

[bemildred]

8. Yeah, I should have used a sarcasm smiley, you are right. nt

[Tommy_Carcetti]

13. "Putin apologist" is a term perhaps thrown around too loosely by some here.

But in this case reading the OP I can't see it not being applicable.

[bemildred]

26. Thanks for the example. nt

[geek tragedy]

34. No, this person was a Putin apologist back when they

said that the GLBT protests against Putin's anti-gay law was nothing but western propaganda.

And angrily denouncing any other criticism of Putin here.

And, praising Putin for saving Europe from the second coming of Adolf Hitler is really awesome.

Sometimes a cigar is a cigar.

[bemildred]

37. Ah, another example. nt

[geek tragedy]

40. yes, you've discovered that people will point out partisan supporters

of foreign leaders when they post here with their 'man on the street' viewpoint.

It certainly does bear on credibliity when a source is strongly biased regarding the subject.

Some people in Ukraine are big fans of Yanukovych and Putin. After all, Russians' idea of a great leader is Leonid Brezhnev.

[bemildred]

46. Why not just call them traitors and be done with it? nt

[geek tragedy]

52. Oh please. Noting that a source is obviously biased in favor

of one party to a dispute is perfectly legit in evaluating his commentary and 'observations'--such as he was used to calling Yanukovych's goon squad the berkut whenever there was trouble in the neighborhood instead of the police.

If someone were spouting Neocon talking points, people would certainly point out there bias.

[bemildred]

55. All sources are biased. So what? That's why you read everybody. nt

[geek tragedy]

63. I don't. I don't read Richard Perle, don't watch rt.com or Hannity, etc. nt

[bemildred]

66. Well I read anybody, I won't say everybody, someone would point out it's impossible.

Seriously, I try to read all sides of an issue, it's the only way to understand.

[geek tragedy]

68. Where there's honest disagreement, sure I'll seek out opposing viewpoints.

But, when it's just partisan hacks arguing back and forth, well that's just Crossfire.

I mean, if someone came on here talking about how Yulia Tymoshenko was the best thing since sliced bread, I'd roll my eyes too.

[bemildred]

70. You can learn a lot from partisan hacks.

You just consider which side they are on, and then you know the narrative that side is pushing.

[geek tragedy]

72. in the instant case, the narrative pushed by both sides has been pretty well known for a while.

as a general rule, when people start bringing Hitler into the discussion . . .

As another general rule, people tend to believe what they read. Regardless of source, etc. People presume the other person is being straight with them.

[bemildred]

78. I agree. The purple rhetoric is indicative of things too.

However, I feel better, I think things are going to quiet down now. Hope I'm right.

[geek tragedy]

80. quiet for maybe a week, but wait until the Ukrainian election campaigns

start heating up.

US, EU, and Russia will all be playing in that one.

[bemildred]

82. It's never really quiet, I suppose. What would they do if they couldn't squabble? nt

[geek tragedy]

85. shoot each other nt

[bemildred]

86. OK, I'm giving you this one.

+1.

[Cha]

162. And, check out those who buys this crap lock stock and barrel.. But, Franklin Graham thinks Putin..

is better on Gay Issues than Pres Obama, too.. So, they can always link him up for proof that Putin's better than Obama. Oooops.

Evangelist Franklin Graham: Putin is better on gay issues than Obama

Evangelist Franklin Graham is praising Russian President Vladimir Putin for his aggressive crackdown on homosexuality, saying his record on protecting children from gay “propaganda” is better than President Obama’s “shameful” embrace of gay rights.

Graham, who now heads the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association started by his famous father, praises Putin in the March issue of the group’s Decision magazine for signing a bill that imposes fines for adults who promote “propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations to minors.”

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2014/03/evangelist-franklin-graham-putin-is-better-on-gay-issues-than-obama/

William http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024669995

[bemildred]

181. See, now there is a REAL Putin apologist, thanks for the example. nt

[NV Whino]

6. Thanks

Appreciate your input and always your photos.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

7. Wow. Just wow.

"This recent situation in Crimea, I believe, is a godsend. First, it has permitted the situation here in Kiev to assume a certain level of normalcy. And I've been thinking recently that how much better the 20th century would have been if, within the first couple of months of Hitler's rule in Germany, someone had decided it was time to put an end to his nonsense and went ahead and invaded Germany. Maybe people in the states don't learn from history, but it certainly looks like Mr. Putin has. "

Yeah. Wow.

[NuclearDem]

10. Wait, so the imperialist fascist starting a pogrom against a minority in his country

annexes a part of a neighboring country, and he's all of a sudden the one stopping the new Hitler from rising?



Not saying I approve of the Neo-Nazis in Ukraine at all, but come on!

[Tommy_Carcetti]

36. Boogles the mind, eh? nt

[laundry_queen]

101. No kidding. nt

[quinnox]

12. It's a bit shocking to hear a report from someone actually over there, instead of the propaganda we

have been hearing from our mainstream news networks sitting in this country, isn't it. Changes the tone of the story quite a bit.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

15. This right here is just shilling for Putin. There's no two ways around it.

Listen, I realize it's the internet and we have to take anything posted with a grain of proverbial salt. Including what I post. I mean, I can post accounts of what my own Ukrainian relatives have been telling me, and you have right to be skeptical, even though I personally know that to be what is told to me.

But when you start patting Vladimir Putin on the back for invading a sovereign country and comparing the current Ukrainian government to Hitler with absolutely no grounds to do so, I'm sorry, you're just crossing a line.

[quinnox]

22. Well, looks like we see this totally differently

I happen to think the OP rings with truth, but you are entitled to your opinion.

[snooper2]

24. I just got done post another five dispatches from VICE as OP

Simon has been there for the last 10 days busting his ass reporting the truth-


Oh-

Fuck (Russ - I - A)

[davidpdx]

176. I've been watching those as well

They are very enlightening. Of course I'm sure he'll be written off as a CIA operative or something like that.

[Avalux]

79. How do we know this person IS over there?

Propaganda can manifest in the most subversive ways sometimes.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

89. Everything posted anonymously on the internet should be taken with a grain of salt.

Including anything I might post.

I could spend my time reposting firsthand accounts of what my Ukrainian relatives have been telling me, but really what good is it in this setting? I believe them to be true, but good luck convincing total strangers that.

[geek tragedy]

19. There are people who believe this stuff. This poster also was part of the

pro-Moscow crew that told GLBT activists to STFU about Mother Russia.

Different values.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

28. Interesting.

Do you have links to those posts?

If that is the case, it definitely does create some suspicion in my mind regarding the OP.

[geek tragedy]

30. here's his reaction to protests against Russia's state-sanctioned bigotry:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024466958#post34

Yep, the American public is being manipulated like a puppet

over Putin and Russia. And people who should know better are enjoying the ride.

There's no reason to doubt he's sincere--by all accounts he's a hardcore Russian nationalist.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

31. Jeez a whiz.

Damn.

[go west young man]

140. The difference between he and you appears to be...

he has first hand experience and you only have the internet and western propaganda as you choose to discard anything remotely of the opposite viewpoint. You discredit and slander anything that sounds remotely Russian as Pro Putin propaganda...so shouldn't the question really be...why do we care what you think?

[NuclearDem]

141. Birds of a feather.

[go west young man]

147. Amazing you can't see yourself.

Here's a gift for ya.

[NuclearDem]

154. Hey, a video without a transphobic word in the title.

I knew you had it in you!

[go west young man]

157. Trans...that's a new one for you.

I thought you had me labeled as homophobic. If you could provide some proof of that I would be much obliged as I have never mentioned that I am transphobic or anti homosexual. To the contrary I actually have mentioned on numerous occasions that I am pro both of those causes and believe in equal rights for all. The way we deal with those issues in regards to Russia is where your title for me came from. Personally I think it's childish to see things in such black and white terms. Oh wait I wrote black...now I must be anti equal rights for people of color!

[NuclearDem]

158. You calling the LGBT community unwilling tools of the MIC is good enough for me.

And posting that video. Check your hides!

[go west young man]

163. Those hides came in one thread after 10 years of activity by me on Democratic Underground.

That says more than anything you may drivel on a bout. I've posted plenty of controversial stuff in the past but one thread gets me a bunch of hides. I would say to those posters and juries..grow some thicker skin.

[NuclearDem]

164. Yeah, you're the victim here.

It couldn't have been how you were telling the LGBT community to shutup, or the video with the transphobic title. It was everyone else's fault.

[go west young man]

165. Oh the old reverse persecution complex reversal.....

your kung fu...is quite crap...Twai Chang Cain.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

142. Dude, were you not reading the part of the OP's post....

....where he said Russia's invasion of Crimea was a good thing and he compared the Ukrainian interim government to Hitler?

How is that not pro-Putin propaganda?

[newthinking]

171. b..bb..bbbbuutttt, he disagrees with me. So he must be a sock puppet!!!

aaaannnnd, you know, Russia's right wingers and neo-nazi's are much worse then our "friendly". kinder gentler neo-nazi's. Why it must be because they say they like us and shit like that!

[Cha]

161. Putin is so fucking Wonderful. Who needs RT when the Putin Propaganda is right here on DU?

[DisgustipatedinCA]

180. Joe McCarthy is a dead piece of shit.

Why do you insist on reviving him?

[malaise]

9. Thanks for your post

[snagglepuss]

11. Are you an ethnic Russian or Ukrainian?

[MattSh]

16. Neither...

[snagglepuss]

21. Why the secrecy? Why not reveal basic personal information?

[MattSh]

62. See above...

[geek tragedy]

23. then why did you refuse to criticize Russia's gay propaganda law?

You went so far as to attack people who advocated boycotts of Sochi over the bigotry of Putin and Russia's government.

[jeff47]

14. My, what a completely unbiased post. (nt)

[geek tragedy]

18. Thanks for reminding us that Yanukovych and Putin still have admirers in Ukraine.

that country has a long road ahead of it.

[snagglepuss]

25. The reason Putin has admirers in Ukraine is that Russians during the

Soviet era were settled in Ukraine to ensure Ukrainians stayed in line. Russians got all the top jobs and Ukrainians were forced to speak Russian. The reason many ethnic Russian hate Ukraine is that they no longer enjoy the superior status they once had. One Russian in Kiev interviewed by the BBC said having to endure hearing people speak Ukrainian makes him sick.

[laundry_queen]

97. That's pretty much it. nt

[ProSense]

20. You appear to be pro-Russia

This a building just down the street from us that has just been broken into for the second time in two weeks. (That's confirmed). This latest incident was apparently performed by Right Sector, who were attempting to free a bank of some of its assets. Most banks here apparently don't keep a lot of assets on-site, but this one did, so they attempted to break in and security on-site barricaded themselves into a safe room and called the police. In normal times, Berkut would respond to these types of calls. But there is no Berkut anymore. So they had to figure out whose responsibility it was. But that's not the end of it. Police eventually showed up and removed the perpetrators, and shortly thereafter release them to the protest camp at Maidan.

What do you make of this:

<...>

The claim, made at www.cyber-berkut.org, could not be independently verified. "Berkut" is a reference to the feared and since disbanded riot squads used by the government of ousted pro-Russian Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich.

Cyber warfare expert Jeffrey Carr, in a blog on the attacks, described cyber berkut as staunch supporters of Yanukovich and a "pro-Russia hacktivist group working against Ukrainian independence".

<...>

Cyber berkut - which some experts believe may be affiliated with Russian intelligence - published its statement in Russian rather than Ukrainian.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/03/16/ukraine-crisis-nato-idUSL6N0MD00D20140316

[Tommy_Carcetti]

35. Yeah, Berkut. Those are the guys you *really* want running the show for Ukraine's security.

Skip to the 8 minute mark:

[cali]

27. sigh. your bias is so strong and you include such weak examples that

even though yours is a first hand account, it's hard to know how much weight to give it.

[go west young man]

33. Hi Matt,

Thanks for taking the time to give a first hand account. I've been posting quite a bit about the theory that the snipers were actually Maidan protesters who sniped their own people. To me it looked like all the people shot and killed were middle aged western Ukranians who came late to the protests. I noticed there seemed to be no younger victims (like the right sector types who led the overthrow). What is the general sentiment in Kiev in regards to that? I know pro Russian people in Eastern Ukraine who are convinced they killed their own people. I'm convinced myself. Just wanted your thoughts on the overall sentiment in Kiev on the matter if possible. Cheers and take care.

[MattSh]

60. This seems to be a fairly complete list...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_during_Euromaidan

Definitely all ages.

The general consensus on who were the snipers depends on who you talk to. Those on Maidan believe that only the government would be evil enough to do that, though they had plenty of other opportunities to do so earlier but did not. The more radical people on Maidan certainly had nefarious backgrounds. There are confirmed reports that some of the right wing forces are veterans of the Chechyan wars and went to Chechnya specifically to fight Russians. But the new government seems to be resisting calls for an investigation. That certainly speaks volumes to me.

[HERVEPA]

117. Nice. Anti-gay Putin shill pats anti-gay Putin shill on the back.

Lot of good info from these two.

[go west young man]

144. I was never anti gay.

I'm actually quite pro gay and equal rights for all human beings. I disagreed with the simplistic methods being employed to denigrate all of Russia during the Olympics and felt (and still feel) that it would backfire...as it did. It made it worse for gay people in Russia and actually increased Putins popularity by an additional 10%. It did backfire and I warned posters here that it would. You didn't move Russia into the 21st century in that regard. You helped build a wall that will take longer to dismantle and made innocent gay people in Russia scapegoats who are actually more likely to be sought out by nefarious groups. Had you and others been more creative you may have found a way to get Russia to more closely align themselves with your views.

The US and the neocons have been pushing a new Cold war for quite some time to keep their coffers full and now they have got it. The terrorism thing only carried em so far. For me, the larger and more important issue for the United States and the world is embracing Russian and helping them into be an equal part of the world community while at the same time helping the regular citizens of the United States to claim their country back from the forces that have corrupted it. (Namely big oil, the MIC, Wall Street, the NeoCons, the joke of a media we have and the top 1%). I would like to see the Cold War over and the money that goes into military contracts used for education, the arts, social programs, health care, jobs, infrastructure building and retirement, right here in the states. To me that makes perfect sense.

I'm probably considered one of the top Putin fans on DU. It doesn't bother me. I disagree with the anti gay legislation Russia came up with. On the other hand I am quite capable of seeing the impressiveness of Russia's economic recovery and rebuilding after a century of communism. I have also spent one month a year (for the past 8 years) living in Voronezh, Russia so I have first hand experience in these matters. DU has a lot of opinions on these matters but experience is the best teacher and that is seriously lacking throughout the site in regards to eastern Europe and Russia in general.

I welcome Matts views and I wouldn't call he or myself names even if I disagreed with him. As a matter of fact he disagreed with me over the age of the snipers. I respect that and thank him for his insight. Have a nice day. Peace.

[stg81]

38. I'm putting the OP on full ignore.

[quinnox]

43. Well, gee, thanks for the announcement

[MattSh]

45. Cool

I probably wouldn't find what you had to say interesting either.

[JVS]

106. I'm putting you on full ignore. And when they invent a triple ignore, I'll put you on that!

[joeybee12]

44. Well, my friends in Dnipro, a very pro-Russian area, want to leave if Russia

takes over...complete opposite of what you said...I'll believe them before I believe an anonymous poster on DU who claims to live in Kiev...I guess the 90% of the Ukranians who voted in 1991 to be separate from Russia no longer exist?

[Tommy_Carcetti]

50. Russia is overplaying its hand when it comes to Eastern Ukraine.

They assume that because many people in that region speak Russian, it means they consider themselves ethnically Russian.

In fact, many of those people grew up during a time period where only Russian could be spoken and taught, and therefore, it is their native language by default. However, they still consider themselves to be ethnically Ukrainian.

[MattSh]

90. Oooh, the skeptic.

Maybe one of these will convince you?

Or maybe you don't care and neither should I.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024590401

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024590404

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024590408

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024590417

[Tommy_Carcetti]

92. It doesn't explain the blatant Putin apology. nt

[randr]

49. I sympathize with your situation

My grandfather saw these conflicts coming prompting him to flee Russia and come here to America.
Two wars and a long time later many of you may desire to make the same choice.
Unfortunately our borders are not a welcoming as they once were.
Good luck---Ни пуха, ни пера!

[zeemike]

51. Well thank you for posting this.

And sorry that the usual crowd shows up to accuse you of being a Putin lover...because you are either with them or against them.
They do not appreciate a first hand account if it differers with their media propaganda.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

54. Well, when you actually defend Putin's military actions...

....and compare the Ukrainian interim government to Hitler, yes, I would say you are a Putin lover.

[zeemike]

59. And likewise I could say

that if you defend a right wing fascist coup against a democracy, yes I could say you are a Fascist lover.
But I don't, and there lies the diference...I don't think in black and white and don't try to get others to think that way.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

65. First, that presumes what happened....

....was indeed a "right wing fascist coup against a democracy", which clearly appears to be the way you are framing the situation, regardless of the truth of the situation.

But there is a line to be drawn for sure. And when you excuse Putin's actions by repeating the B.S. explanation behind the Russian invasion, you in fact have become a Putin apologist. Just like those who believed we were justified in invading Iraq based on the Bush administration's claims of WMD were Bush apologists.

[zeemike]

94. Telling the other side is not "excuse Putin's actions "

But putting it all on Putin is excusing the actions of a coup against a democratically elected government which clearly has a fascist element in positions of power...which I have yet to hear any of the "fascist apologist" speak out against.

Russia has a strategic interest in the Crimea as it is their only warm water port, so why would you be so surprised at what they did?...and if we were in that position we would have done the same thing and you know it...you can call that apologist if you want, but I call it reality

[Tommy_Carcetti]

109. Crimea isn't Russia's only warm water port.

Russia has hundreds of miles of coastline along the Black Sea within its own borders to which it could use as a port.

Russia wants Crimea. It doesn't need Crimea. There's a big difference.

Regarding the OP and "telling the other side": These are the OP's own words, not anyone else's:

"This recent situation in Crimea, I believe, is a godsend. First, it has permitted the situation here in Kiev to assume a certain level of normalcy. And I've been thinking recently that how much better the 20th century would have been if, within the first couple of months of Hitler's rule in Germany, someone had decided it was time to put an end to his nonsense and went ahead and invaded Germany. Maybe people in the states don't learn from history, but it certainly looks like Mr. Putin has. "

How is that anything but excusing Putin's action?

[zeemike]

127. That OP is from someone that lives there.

And is concerned about the fascist who by the way hate the Russians at least as much as you do...and that element goes back to the Nazis in WW2

But there are dozens of videos on You tube that show them in action...but you chose to ignore it and instead blame it on Putin...and claim it is not that bad, as I am sure some Germans did when the Brown shirts were out beating people up...after all it was not the good Germans who were getting their ass kicked.
Putin has been declared the bad guy by those on high and that automatically makes the opposition the good guys in the black and white world...and they can be a fascist as they want as long as they are against Putin.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

136. And I have relatives who live there and who are actually Ukrainian.

And I could bring in their observations but I don't know how much credence you'd choose to put into them. Needless to say, they paint a much, much different picture than the OP.

Listen, no one has denied that there were ultranationalists present at the protest and that there is at least one minority political party in Ukraine that could be described as nationalist or ultranationalist. What has been disputed by many here is that the protests that lead to the change in power was primarily an ultranationalist--or as you term it, fascist--movement. There is much evidence to the contrary.

Furthermore, to parrot Putin's claim that Russia had to invade Crimea to protect Russians from Ukrainian "fascists" is laughable, considering the lack of any evidence to support any actual persecution of or mass violence against ethnic Russians living in Crimea or any other part of Ukraine. It makes no more sense than our prior administration's claim that we needed to invade Iraq to "liberate" the Iraqi people. And good luck finding people here who will cop to supporting that tripe.

And to claim that Russia's invasion of Ukrainian soil (as recognized by prior treaty) was a good thing and to compare an interim Ukrainian government to Hitler--that, my friend, is beyond contempt. And that is exactly what the OP clearly did, and he ought to be called out on such insanity.

[snappyturtle]

57. I appreciate your report and hope you will continue to keep us posted

regardless of some negativity posted. I fear that Ukraine is being set up for
unmerciless austerity to fatten tptb.

Viva les banksters and the military industrial complex!

[KoKo]

58. Recommend...interesting read..

[Comrade Grumpy]

61. Interesting. Thanks for posting. n/t

[Demo_Chris]

64. Thanks, good report. nt

[840high]

69. Thank you. Interesting.

[mountain grammy]

73. Thank you for your post as I struggle to understand this situation.

Since Ukraine was once part of the Soviet Union, do people born in Kiev before 1991 consider themselves Russian or Ukrainian?

I apologize for a dumb question, but I'm trying to understand the loyalty to Russia.

[MattSh]

125. The best way I can explain it would be this.

Though some will no doubt disagree.

Though Scotland has been part of the UK for hundreds of years, people of Scottish ancestry would often claim that instead of saying they're English. In fact, Scotland will soon have a referendum about leaving the UK.

Secondly, they have family and ancestry from Russia. Maybe a bit why people in the states call themselves Irish-Americans or German-Americans. But nobody does the hyphenation bit over here.

And a good portion of what is now Ukraine was not part of Ukrainian territory (within Russia) 100 years ago. Lenin added historically Russian territory to the Ukrainian SSR. Stalin added former Polish territory after WW2. Khrushchev added Crimea in 1954. Nobody though twice about it because they likely assumed there would always be a USSR.

[mountain grammy]

145. Thank you.

I'm reading all these posts, trying to understand the crisis.

Sometimes, my isolated little village seems far from the rest of the world.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

74. DUers: In reading this post, do yourself a favor.

Highlight the things that the OP has labeled to be rumor. Then highlight the things that appear to be the OP's own opinion.

Whatever is left over, feel free to take or leave at your own discretion.

On a totally unrelated matter, I've heard a few rumors myself about what might have happened to the Malaysian jetliner. Does anyone want to hear them?

[stevenleser]

96. This highlights the difference between anecdote and data gathered through scientific polls and other

analysis with care taken to try not to have biased results.

Undoubtedly, OP tends to associate with people who believe like OP does. There is nothing wrong with that because most of us tend to do that too.

The problem comes when OP takes a finger in the wind survey of that already biased pool which unsurprisingly yields the results that OP is happy to report as supporting their view and OP makes the additional and critical error of trying to present that as representative of Kyiv.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

113. Well said. nt

[go west young man]

149. Your right.

Matt should of used video evidence, such as this, to back up his claims. That's a pro Russia crowd in East Ukraine by the way. It's pretty easy to see which way the wind is blowing there.

[Rex]

77. Oh noes! You caused the authoritarians to have a sadz!

Why can't you type an OP that fits their narrative! Under the bus you go!

[ProSense]

83. LOL! Yeah, supporting Putin is a sign of being anti-authoritarian, right?

Funny stuff. LOL!

[stevenleser]

98. That was priceless.

[Hekate]

185. LOL is right. That post was one of the weirdest things I have ever read here at DU...

.... and that's saying a lot.

[stevenleser]

99. You keep using that word.

[msanthrope]

102. damn you beat me to it. !!!!!!nt

[stevenleser]

119. That person's response begged for that video.

Maybe we should take up a collection to send that poster to Moscow as an experiment to hold up protest signs against Putin so he can test his theory of how anti-authoritarian Putin is.

[joshcryer]

133. Haha, being against fascist Putin = authoritarian!

Orwellian.

[blackspade]

137. Putin is an anti-fascist?

Really?

[joshcryer]

138. Hmm, I see how that reads.

Anti-fascist-Putin?

[blackspade]

139. I may have mis-read your original post.

I thought you were insinuating that Putin wasn't a fascist and wasn't an authoritarian.

[Sheepshank]

81. interesting...and clearly lop sided

I'm pretty sure that there is just as empassioned call for Ukraine independance from Russia. They just don't happen to be a DU member.

My parents were refugees from 1956 Hungary, witnessed attrocities by Russian and German soldiers. I can "hear" the empassioned 3 way statements right now.

Not sure why Russian military agression was required to absorbe a nation where 80% of the people want to be part of Russia?

eta....my mom used to say "if you want a complete picture of Hitler and the 3rd Reich...do you only go to a Nazi?"

[grasswire]

100. this is reminding me of 1956 Hungary

My father was listening on the radio to the broadcasts from Hungary as the Russian tanks rolled in; the impassioned pleas for America to help. I was a girl then, but I remember the occasion very well. I have thought back to that time, when I hear about Ukraine.

[blackspade]

84. A couple of questions/comments...

So you say that cable and other services are running fine?
It sounds like the Russian stations were just moved to a new tier of service.
Common here in the US as well. I have to pay extra for Spanish/Latin TV.
This does not sound like a real issue, rather one that is being lumped into an overall narrative in order to make it more legit.

Why would folks living in Ukraine be 'pro-Russian'? You set your narrative up as a pro-Russian/pro-Ukrainian dichotomy. Why is that? You live in Ukraine, I assume you are a Ukrainian citizen, so why would you be 'pro-Russian'? The Maiden 'revolution' involves Ukrainians, correct? Why do you see yourself as not being part of Ukraine? This statement is really confusing:

Now there is no doubt a strong pro-Ukrainian thing going on here too; first because of Ukrainianization policies since independence, and second, there's a whole lot more opportunity in Kiev than in the west of Ukraine, so there's a good number of west Ukrainians here.

Why would there not be a pro-Ukrainian thing going on in....Ukraine? And Ukrainianization policies? What are those? You do realize you live in the nation of Ukraine? And I thought western Ukraine were largely ethnic Russians? Are you saying that ethnic Ukrainians from western Ukraine are having to leave? Or are they ethnic Russians?

Are you trying to say that there is only western propaganda? Assuming that you are watching Russian TV doesn't that seem ironic, given that the Russian government has shut down or 'restructured' liberal anti-imperialist media outlets in Russia?

And the family anecdote? Maybe your wife's friend is genuinely concerned about your anti-Ukrainian stance? Maybe your father-in-law is a Ukrainian nationalist the whole time, but didn't feel compelled to speak out until Russian provocateurs and a Russian invasion caused him to step up and speak out? Your blaming it on his girlfriend? Really?

And how is an invasion and annexation of a good portion of Ukraine a 'godsend'? You do realize that your nation just lost people, prime agricultural land, infrastructure, and it's main fleet anchorage? How does that make Ukraine more stable and better off? And what are you talking about in your WWII reference? Are you saying that Stalin waited too long to invade Germany? That he should have just invaded Germany and Poland? I don't think that you understand the prewar geopolitical situation very well. How has Putin learned from this? What was the lesson? Are you insinuating the Ukraine will invade Russia?

And these Right Sector thugs? These guys are just a bunch of criminals that need to be arrested. Where are the police? Can they not function without the Berkut riot police thugs to back them up? I agree that these guys are a problem that needs to be stamped out.








.

[MattSh]

103. Some answers...

Why would folks living in Ukraine be 'pro-Russian'? You set your narrative up as a pro-Russian/pro-Ukrainian dichotomy. Why is that? You live in Ukraine, I assume you are a Ukrainian citizen, so why would you be 'pro-Russian'? The Maiden 'revolution' involves Ukrainians, correct? Why do you see yourself as not being part of Ukraine? This statement is really confusing:

Now there is no doubt a strong pro-Ukrainian thing going on here too; first because of Ukrainianization policies since independence, and second, there's a whole lot more opportunity in Kiev than in the west of Ukraine, so there's a good number of west Ukrainians here.

American citizen, Ukrainian residency. My wife has lived here her whole life.

Why would there not be a pro-Ukrainian thing going on in....Ukraine? And Ukrainianization policies? What are those? You do realize you live in the nation of Ukraine? And I thought western Ukraine were largely ethnic Russians? Are you saying that ethnic Ukrainians from western Ukraine are having to leave? Or are they ethnic Russians?

Ukraine is very much a cobbled together country, like much of the Middle East and Africa. The eastern 25% of Ukraine was tacked on by Lenin, the western %15 by Stalin, and Crimea by Khrushchev (native Ukrainian). All approximate numbers. European examples are Catalonia and Spain, and the UK and Scotland (which is currently contemplating leaving the UK). Just because certain groups are a part of a country does not mean that they automatically get their loyalty forever.

Are you trying to say that there is only western propaganda? Assuming that you are watching Russian TV doesn't that seem ironic, given that the Russian government has shut down or 'restructured' liberal anti-imperialist media outlets in Russia?

No, there is propaganda from both sides.

And the family anecdote? Maybe your wife's friend is genuinely concerned about your anti-Ukrainian stance? Maybe your father-in-law is a Ukrainian nationalist the whole time, but didn't feel compelled to speak out until Russian provocateurs and a Russian invasion caused him to step up and speak out? Your blaming it on his girlfriend? Really?

No, neither my wife nor I can generally look favorably on someone idolizing Stepan Bandera, leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists during WW2, and implicated in the deaths of 90,000 Poles and Jews, and a collaborator with Nazi Germany. As for her father, well, you'd have to know him to understand. Maybe more of a perspective thing that wasn't really necessary.

And how is an invasion and annexation of a good portion of Ukraine a 'godsend'? You do realize that your nation just lost people, prime agricultural land, infrastructure, and it's main fleet anchorage? How does that make Ukraine more stable and better off? And what are you talking about in your WWII reference? Are you saying that Stalin waited too long to invade Germany? That he should have just invaded Germany and Poland? I don't think that you understand the prewar geopolitical situation very well. How has Putin learned from this? What was the lesson? Are you insinuating the Ukraine will invade Russia?

I'm suggesting that some countries need to be split. Ukraine, being cobbled together to serve the purposes of the rulers at the time, would seem to be a prime example of this. First someone from the east rules to their benefit, then someone from the west does the same, then the east, and now again the west. If the population as a whole benefitted, that would be one thing. But they have not. And they most certainly will not benefit from IMF austerity.

Ukraine should have been one of the miracle economies when the USSR broke up. Instead, they are by far the certifiable basket case. Here's the numbers GDP numbers since the end of the USSR.

Armenia 649
Azerbaijan 447
Uzbekistan 292
Georgia 271
Latvia 250 *
Russia 246
Belarus 233
Estonia 231 *
Turkmenistan 221
Lithuania 203 *
Kazakhstan 184
Tajikistan 156
Kyrgyzstan 114
Moldova 65
Ukraine 44

* current EU member states

http://opencanada.org/features/the-think-tank/graphic/russias-sphere-of-influence/

And these Right Sector thugs? These guys are just a bunch of criminals that need to be arrested. Where are the police? Can they not function without the Berkut riot police thugs to back them up? I agree that these guys are a problem that needs to be stamped out.

Svoboda and Right Sector members were appointed to the internal security apparatus. The military, the police, the prosecutors offices. Nothing will happen.

[blackspade]

134. Thanks for the replies.

You didn't really address a few of the points as fully as I would have liked, but I have a better handle on your point of view at least.

[nadinbrzezinski]

87. Whenever an international crisis gets hot

media goes into propaganda mode. so media can be really trusted

You take care, because things could get really hot for an expat, given all the medling by multiple agents in this.

And I see you were already corrected.

[Crunchy Frog]

88. Thanks for giving us your perspective

as someone who's actually there.

I think your post is more valid than 99 percent of everything that's being posted on here about the situation.

My view has always been that it's quite a bit more complex and nuanced than the people lining up on either side are giving it credit for.

[grahamhgreen]

91. It's about oil & austerity, IMHO.

[totodeinhere]

95. What is your opinion of the plight of LGBT's in Russia?

I simply cannot get beyond that issue. Until Putin respects LGBT rights I cannot support anything that he or his government or his supports do or say.

[stevenleser]

104. It's so authoritarian of you to say so...

... at least according to the new definition some here have spawned that means basically any criticism of Putin and Russia is bad because authoritarian.

[MattSh]

110. I'd be more concerned about Svoboda in Ukraine than Putin in Russia.

Who Are the World's Worst Anti-Gay Bigots? - PolicyMic - (from May 2013)

4. Ukrainian Political Party Svoboda

Svoboda, which ironically translate as "freedom," is a radical nationalist party and currently one of the five biggest parties in the country. Following elections last year, Svoboda secured seats in parliament for the first time ever, winning 10 times more votes than it had previously ever won. Part of its platform during its election campaign included a pledge to "introduce criminal responsibility for propaganda of drug use and sexual perversions."

According to HRW, the:

"... party repeatedly speaks out against LGBT people’s rights and has announced its support for homophobic bills. On May 14 Iryna Farion, a Svoboda member of parliament, told media, referring to LGBT people: 'They should be cured. I do not make comments about sick people. I don't understand what you are asking me about. They need to be cured.' In July and December 2012, Svoboda party members were involved in attacking a peaceful protest against homophobic laws."


http://www.policymic.com/articles/42733/who-are-the-world-s-worst-anti-gay-bigots


Summary: “Anti-propaganda laws”, the new criminalisation of homosexuality | The European Parliament Intergroup on LGBT Rights

Stanislav Mishchenko, Ukrainian LGBT Council

An already very bad situation was made worse by these laws, according to Stanislav Mishchenko from the Ukrainian Council of LGBT Organisations. He underlined that the phony draft Ukrainian anti-discrimination laws didn’t effectively protect LGBT people from discrimination. The far-right party Svoboda was described as very active in its attempts to limit LGBT people’s rights.

Mr Mishchenko also stressed that the threat of stopping EU visa liberalisation had worked so far, but that it was also important to provide positive incentives occasionally.

http://www.lgbt-ep.eu/intergroup-documents/summary-anti-propaganda-laws/

[stevenleser]

121. Being more concerned about a group that MIGHT enact anti-gay laws vs one that ALREADY HAS is an

interesting point of view, particularly given the point that Svoboda might never come close to having any actual power to create policy in Ukraine while the anti-gay bigots in Russia are creating policy.

[William769]

126. +1000!

I will respond to you but not the bigots.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

129. Good point.

You're looking at an 8% minority party on one hand and speculation on what power it might weld, and actual votes of the Russian Federal Assembly on the other.

[newthinking]

186. Yea right... We have heard all about how the far right and neo-nazis in Ukraine are "kinder-gentler"

They are all misunderstood and they like the US and shit.

All nazis are bad and people to the right of the tea party are not going to be doing great things. Neither are the gangs of Right sector who are running around "enforcing order".

What a load of shit we are expected to believe.

[stevenleser]

189. See my #188 below. I am not buying it. nt

[NuclearDem]

130. So Svoboda is bad because they MIGHT enact homophobic laws

But Putin, who already has, is stopping the next Hitler?

Oh come on.

[Cali_Democrat]

166. LOL

[newthinking]

187. Yes, they are "kinder-gentler" Neo-Nazi's. What a load of horseshit

Even the quote "moderate" fatherland" party is to the right close to our tea party and folks get down on liberals here for pointing that out.

Does anyone even research these guys?

New Ukraine President
In August 2007, Turchynov replied to the accusation that his stance on same-sex marriage is typically conservative, "I do not agree. If a man has normal views, then you label him a conservative, but those who use drugs or promote sodomy, you label them a progressive person. All of these are perversions".http://web.archive.org/web/20080820220202/http://www.lgf.org.uk/news/research-2/overview-of-lesbian-and-gay-rights-in-eastern-europe/

Oleksandr Turchynov is an elder in a conservative Evangelical Church. We know how Evangelical Churches view gays.

Ukrainian PM
Ukraine Opposition Surprises Supporters by Denouncing Gay Marriage (Fatherland leader and now Prime Minister)
http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-releases/ukraine-opposition-surprises-supporters-by-denouncing-gay-marriage-198940821.html

Svoboda is heavily anti-gay

Member of parliament Ihor Miroshnychenko asked the head of the Kiev City State Administration Oleksandr Popov on 7 March 2013 to ban an LGBT march that was held the next day because he believed it would "contribute to promoting sexual orientation" and he further stated in his request "homosexuality provokes sexually transmitted diseases and AIDS".[98] The 8 March rally was in fact not an LGBT march but organized by feminist organizations.[99]

Need we even mention the further right parties?

[stevenleser]

188. LGBT rights are clearly a game to you. You dont want to hold to account the country that has already

legislated an attack on LGBT rights and the reason you don't want to is for political reasons that have nothing to do with LGBT rights.

So instead, you attempt to distract us by raising this bogeyman of the potential threat of this group in Ukraine that might never become an issue.

Now, to the extent that LGBT or Jews (of which I am one by the way) are concerned about the threat Svoboda may present at some point, that does not excuse the bigotry that exists right now in Russia already toward both groups.

For some reason, you refuse to talk about that and try to change the subject. That is not the behavior of someone concerned about equality and rights for LGBT.

[newthinking]

192. I am not the one politicizing rights

Exactly why is pointing out that the new leaders in Ukraine are right wing homophobes a game? I didn't think that I had to point out Russian Homophobes, that is covered 50 times a day. But many people on this board are not aware of the stands and beliefs of the new government in Ukraine.

It is the pro-Ukraine overthrow folks here that keep using Gay rights as a debate weapon and it is completely appropriate to point out the inconsistency of their position,. Sorry if the truth hurts. Face up to it.

[NuclearDem]

190. So the potential for codified homophobia in Ukraine

due to a party that doesn't even hold close to a majority in parliament justifies the intervention of a country that HAS codified homophobia?



Bonus points for implying that I'm making excuses for a Neo-Nazi party.

[LittleBlue]

105. How dare you sit there in Kiev and contradict the American armchair activists

Crimea would never truly want to join Russia doncha know. Obama said so, that's good enough for me. Traitor!

[JVS]

135. Fucking Putlerite!

[fleabiscuit]

118. Interesting points of view.

Obviously they will be processed by ones particular self identification along an approved US political range. Some wider than others.

[pansypoo53219]

124. well, i just sold a straight razor to a guy in ukraine. we have been chatting since i emailed him

about it being mailed. he says he likes the new PM. rather anti-putin.

[newthinking]

174. Yes, there are multiple viewpoints. But a single viewpoint is getting most of the coverage in msm

so I think people are interested in hearing other views and thoughts

[LiberalEsto]

143. Thank you for the propaganda

How much were you paid?

[NervousRex]

148. Tere!

As a fellow Esto, the gullibility of some people to these kind of Russian tricks is funny/sad/disturbing. This is a bog standard Russian propaganda game from an old playbook.

[LiberalEsto]

156. Tere tagasi!

Yes, it looks like DU has been infiltrated by Russian trolls to spread Putin's propaganda. Unfortunately some of the older lefties still think the Soviets could do no wrong.

Are you in Eesti or the US?

[Cha]

172. And, look at all those who are lapping

up the RT stories as if wishing so made them real.

[moondust]

150. Is Pootie-Poot gonna take east Ukraine? n/t

[Demeter]

151. Thanks for the update, MattSh

You all keep safe, you hear? The offer stands...any assistance, any time.

[wercal]

152. Demographics?

"Here in Kiev, most of the people we know are pro-Russian. Yeah, I know, that's not supposed to be that way. So says the official propagandists."

Kiev is 82% Ukrainian and 13% Russian, per Wikipedia.

Are you saying that large numbers of Ukrainians are pro-Russian?

[WillyT]

153. Thanks Matt...

& Rec !!!

[bluestate10]

160. Would you be ok if Ukraine declared itself neutral like Switzerland?

The Crimea should also be declared neutral, but continue to host the only warm water naval port that Russia has. To me, a neutral Ukraine would solve the security concerns that Russia rightfully has about NATO on it's doorstep. I would also support neutrality for Poland and the Baltic States, that would provide Russia with a buffer of neutral countries between it and NATO. The countries being neutral would come with the certainty that if their territory or politics are violated, the violator will be struck hard.

[Union Scribe]

173. The truthiness brigade doesn't like this one bit.

I mean so what that you're there living it. The posters here have read upwards of two things and furthermore listened to a Kerry speech, so they're pretty much experts more than anyone who just LIVES THERE.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

178. And what of actual Ukrainians living in Ukraine, who unlike the OP...

....consider events in the best interests of their own country and not Russia?

Do they have any input at all?

No, I guess they are all too busy Sieg Heiling and plotting to take over Europe, or something like that.

[woo me with science]

191. kick