Everybody knows that Putin is BAD,

[bvar22]

so the other guys MUST be GOOD!
and THAT is ALL you need to know!

THIS is the United States of godddamned Amurca,
and we NEVER learn from our mistakes,
so FU and get ready for some USA style FREEDOM to get all OVER your ASS!
We got our Freedom Fires and our Freedom Bombs all loaded up!
Lets ROLL!

[font size=5]
If you're not FOR WAR in[/font]
Vietnam
Afghanistan
Iraq
Libya
Syria
[font size=5]The Ukraine
you're WITH [/font]
The Communists
AlQaeda
The Terrorists
Saddam
Qaddafi
Assad
[font size=5]PUTIN!!!![/font]

Terror! Terror! Terror!
Evil Dictators!
Booga...Booga
YeeHaw!
Terror Drones and Freedom Bombs for Peace!!!
USA....USA...USA

[font size=3]They are killing their own people.
Don't they know that is OUR job?
[/font]

[Benton D Struckcheon]

1. Putin was the only one who was for war in Ukraine.

He actually waged it too.
That straw man is burning bright, you know.

[ProSense]

2. The OP is posted in nearly every Putin thread.

It's the height of absurdity.

[bvar22]

13. Actually, I have posted a version to Warmonger threads for Libya,

Syria,
and now
The Ukraine.


I have this deep belief that we should know WHO and WHAT we are supporting BEFORE the Drums of Hate start beating.

You're correct that this is an old post,
upgraded to fit our current situation.

I posted it in response to the Day Long "2 minutes of hate" thread from yesterday targeting Liberals, pacifists, Non-Interventionists....you know, the usual crowd of DU Liberals.

The problem with that thread that gives me 1984 chills in the pit of my belly is that
[font size=3]out of over 450 posts, not a single ONE was about WHO and WHAT we should be supporting in the Ukraine. It was ONLY about WHO we should hate.[/font]
That thread was a genuine Orwellian Two Minutes of Hate.
I would expect to see something like that on FR, but NOT DU.
We are better than that.

I challenge you to go find a single post in that thread about WHO we should be supporting in the Ukraine,
or about WHAT we should be supporting.
WHO and WHAT are our other options besides PUTIN=BAD?
You were one of the (thankfully) few who Recommended that Two Minutes of Hate,
so you should be familiar with the content.
I challenge you.

I agree with the first line of that OP.
"Putin is a Right Wing Fascist Thug",
but I have also been doing due diligence before rolling out the Freedom Bombs and lining up in the Hate Parade.
There are Players in The Ukraine who appear to be WORSE than Putin,
and like Libya, Iraq, and Afghanistan,
I won't be a willing part of making things WORSE for anybody.


Do YOU know who WON in Iraq?
Do YOU know who WON in Afghanistan?
Do YOU know who WON in Libya?

Our intentions may be good,
but the USA has a horrible record of FAILURE in intervening in other countries over the last 60 years.
9 times out of 10, we have made things WORSE for the people living there.
...but don't let that stop you.
What do you care anyway?

[ProSense]

15. Putin is for war so if you're for Putin, you're against war!

LOL!

[SidDithers]

62. ProSense, you can't expect these Putin enablers to understand simple logic...nt

Sid

[go west young man]

45. Bvar...you can't expect

these NeoCon enablers to understand your simple logic!

[bvar22]

55. No.

...but I can expose Shallow Thinking and Parade Following.^

[go west young man]

59. Funny how far we've come from the Iraq War...

where DU was united against a common enemy...namely the NeoCons...and now half of the site is actively waving the flag for the NeoCon agenda. http://www.globalresearch.ca/neocons-and-the-ukraine-coup/5370405 Why? Because it Russia and gay or something.

[G_j]

114. now they are here

unfortunately. IMO, they are destroying the ability to have productive discussions anymore.

[mythology]

138. Reflexively assuming a position by default is a rather silly thing to do

Iraq and Ukraine are different situations with different origins. It's perfectly fine to come to the conclusion that you are against both Iraq and a potential conflict in Ukraine, but to do so by saying that are the same just isn't accurate.

[go west young man]

143. Due to your chosen screen name...

you should realize mythical creatures do not actually go away and die, they manifest themselves in other ways in other lives and are applied to human behavior throughout history. The beast that is the NeoCons is not even as complex as that simple analogy. It is still the same ugly creature... just 10 years older. Nothing much has changed...except if we as Democrats had prosecuted those criminals the hydra may not have reared it's ugly head once again.

[cui bono]

89. You're absolutely right. It's absurd that it has to be posted at all.

And yet it does as evidenced by all the accusations on DU.

[dionysus]

108. the cardboard cutout comrades amuse me...

[reformist2]

4. If only our wars could go so smoothly, and quickly!

[sabrina 1]

21. Got some links to that information, re Putin was going to war in Ukraine? Thanks ...

[Benton D Struckcheon]

30. Huh?

Russian troops crossing over an international border, blockading ships of the Ukrainian Navy, and beseiging Ukrainian military installations are all acts of war. Only the extraordinary restraint shown by the Ukrainian forces, so far that is, has prevented mass bloodshed. That can change at any time of course.

[sabrina 1]

33. I asked for links, not someone's opinion. If you can't provide them, and please, not the Corporate

Media, credible links. Thanks again.

[kwassa]

73. What is a credible link, in your book?

Would it be credible to most of the people here?

Who is corporate media, and who isn't?

[sabrina 1]

96. What is credible in your opinion? I don't rely on any one source, I use multiple sources for news

If most are reporting the same 'facts' and a few appear to be spinning the 'facts' according to their particular biases, I dismiss those who don't appear to be just reporting news, but attempting to influence their readers or viewers. Faux, eg, is clearly biased. The MSM is also clearly biased. Let's face it, any media outlet that considers Dick Cheney an 'expert on Foreign Policy' who they consult on issues like the situation in Ukraine, has very little credibility.

[EX500rider]

132. She'll accept blogs that she agrees with. n/t

[Benton D Struckcheon]

128. Beeb live feed

20:25: Ukrainian TV channels have expressed shock over the first fatality in Crimea, our colleagues at BBC Monitoring report. The overall tone of the evening news bulletins and the presenters' comments was serious and even tragic at times, they say.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26625476

I'm done with you.

[bvar22]

126. Russia is ALLOWED to station 25,000 troops on the Crimean Peninsula

per the Russia-Ukraine Treaty of 1999.
The current total of 16,000 is well below the permitted 25,000.

Some "INVASION" isn't it?

Putin could send in another 9,000 Russian troops and still be within the terms of the treaty.

[Benton D Struckcheon]

129. So?

All that does is give him a cover story. Your choice is whether to believe that story. It's called critical thinking.

[Whisp]

3. So because Bush and Reagan were evil shits

and Clinton too - a bit less eviler tho, there will never be reason to trust in a President again, ever.

The big money system is corrupt throughout the world and throughout the ages and good leaders need help, not raging spittle, to set some things on the better course so the next leader can continue improving even more.

[bvar22]

51. I was with you until the "raging spittle".

The Clinton Sanctions killed over a half MILLION innocent Iraqi Children,..and over 1 MILLION innocent Iraqi Adults
without inconveniencing the Iraqi 1% in the slightest.

These figures were corroborated by Madeleine Albright, Clinton's Sec of State at the time,
who commented about the 1/2 MILLION Iraqi Children Deaths,
"It was worth it!"

The Libyan Intervention occurred on Obama's watch.
He removes the last obstruction blocking the IMF from "helping" North Africa
with their version of Payday Loans collateralize by a nation's Natural Resources.
THAT is who WON in Libya.

” For all his dictatorial megalomania, Gaddafi is a committed pan-African - a fierce defender of African unity. Libya was not in debt to international bankers. It did not borrow cash from the International Monetary Fund for any "structural adjustment". It used oil money for social services - including the Great Man Made River project, and investment/aid to sub-Saharan countries. Its independent central bank was not manipulated by the Western financial system. All in all a very bad example for the developing world.”

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MD27Ak01.html

When it comes down to "helping" other countries,
it is a good idea to have an adversarial relationship with our Leadership, whoever it might be.
They will have to PROVE their case to me,
and Putin=BAD is not NEAR enough to get my support,
especially after finding out who some of the other players are in The Ukraine.
We NEED to be very, VERY careful about WHO we "help" there.

Like Iraq under Saddam,
and Libya under Gaddaffi,
it may be better to just leave them alone.

[delrem]

83. Very strong post.

Pepe Escobar is a treasure to the planet and I'm totally impressed that you could be reminded of and dig up that article from April 2011.

[sabrina 1]

124. You make too much sense Bvar. We are not supposed to make sense, we are supposed to, as Wing Nuts

told me when I refused to support the Iraq War: 'Okay, lieberal, our troops are on the ground, you've had your say, now just shut up and get on board'. Naturally that never happened, I find it hard to just 'get on board' especially when ordered to do so without thinking, discussion, information etc. They were not pleased!

[joeybee12]

5. Barf

[sabrina 1]

22. So, are people who oppose US Foreign policies of policing the entire world, 'Saddam lovers'

as Bush Bots claimed? Or could they maybe have a point?

Emoticons never take the place of discussion. I assume you support the notion that the Left, who are always the targets of these claims, 'terrorist supporter' 'Saddam lover' etc, are simply 'Blame America Firsters' as Bush bots, Limbaugh, Hannity, Faux et al have always claimed?

[quinnox]

6. I am a fan of that meme you came up with

It also seems to drive authoritarian/lockstep types crazy.

[idendoit]

7. What's your point?

[sabrina 1]

23. I get the point. But what is yours? Do you have a point, or you just agree that the Left

are 'terrorist lovers' for opposing Bush's wars eg. Saddam lovers, or whoever our latest enemies are. Why do we have so many enemies? Do you know? We always seem to have enemies, we kill them and hundreds of thousands of innocents along with them, and a dozen years later we have MORE than we started out with. Why is that?

[idendoit]

36. I was just wondering if you were being facetious.

It's apparent that you are. Along with the OP.

[delrem]

85. You no doubt can't understand this, idendoit,

but you didn't present an argument.

[sabrina 1]

97. Actually I was very serious. n/t

[cui bono]

90. They don't have a point. I just went round the merry-go-round with that one

in another thread. Very immature and nothing to say, just goes in circles.

[Cali_Democrat]

8. The Fuck?

[ProSense]

11. Putin is for war so if you're for Putin, you're against war!

[sabrina 1]

25. Did you have a point to make, because if you did, it is not getting across.

[Cryptoad]

71. looks like

he got it across pretty good!

[sabrina 1]

94. She, she is a she!

I did not get her point, I asked for clarification. I still have not received it. So clearly the point did not get across, unless you would like to explain it?

[grahamhgreen]

102. She is a they, IMHO.

[Cryptoad]

105. and how do you know their gender?

[LondonReign2]

121. Them, it is a them

[Control-Z]

82. No. Really. It came across

quite clearly.

[Number23]

99. It's a shame the OPs relentless defenders swarmed on this thread

If there had been 1/12 as many recs as there were rambling, spittle flecked words tossed at people who dared to ask what he was babbling about, he'd been sitting at about 12000 by now.

[MannyGoldstein]

9. It's different this time.

Because.

Regards,

TWM

[Cali_Democrat]

12. "If you're not for war in the Ukraine, you're with Putin"

OP's own words.

Is anyone in the administration seriously arguing for a US war in Ukraine?

Other than a few people like crazy McCain, is anyone really arguing for a war along the lines of Vietnam or Iraq?

BTW, didn't you say McCain's policies wouldn't be different than Obama's had he become President?

Yep, you did.

[bvar22]

19. The first step in Getting a War On...

...is the Two Minutes of Hate.
You have been a here in the USA for the last twenty years?
Yes?
You didn't notice how you were played to support the other guy?

There ARE Players in The Ukraine that are WORSE than Putin.

Do you know that most Iraqis agree that Iraq was BETTER OFF before we took out Saddam?

Do you know that the Sharia Fundamentalist WON in Libya with OUR help,
and have recently instituted Sharia Law in the North African country that had the highest standard of living BEFORE we "helped" them?

Don't you think that we shouldn't make the same old mistakes with the Ukraine?
The USA has a dismal track record in making other countries better.

Just because PUTIN = BAD,
that doesn't automatically make the other guys good.

I want to know WHO and WHAT we are FOR before I join any parades.

[Cali_Democrat]

24. Nobody in the adminstration is even entertaining the thought of a US war in Ukraine

There is a country with troops in Ukraine and that's Russia.

You're seriously deluded.

[jtuck004]

61. I doubt that's proveable. Perhaps you meant that no one has called for war?

(Well, except the silly Russian quote that said they could "reduce us to ashes". He should just wait. We are in a race between burning up the planet and Fukushima, and could pick up the pieces for little or nothing. They have a lot to learn about Capitalism, man). But I digress...

But you've been here, you know we don't just go to war. That's the other guys. We have to have "the provocation" and the ramp up. Time to put up unflattering posters of the bad guys. Maybe spend $5 billion and send an Assistant Secretary of State to hand out cookies to people who would depose him if...

Note: -> Pay no attention to the comments. They are filled with ID Ten t errors, such as this one

"What is so ridiculous is watching these empty, hardcore Leftist scum (such as this female twit) do the bidding of their CIA masters so eagerly like the puppets they are."

This person incorrectly identifies her with people who believe as we do, the Left. But here I go assuming. "we" Wow, that's hard to avoid...

Anyway, Russia has had bases there for a long time, necessary to their defense of the sea. From people who live there and other sources I think most of the people in Crimea want to be under their government.

On the off chance that we kick the Russians out, what if Crimea gives us the big finger and tells the Ukraine to go jump in the lake? Gonna send aid to help the Ukrainian government get tanks to MAKE 'em behave? That close to Russia's borders? I think Russia has a strategic interest here, and they took advantage of conditions to insure its control. And the people most directly affected want it that way.

What's the alternative? Some interminable series of tit-for-tat conflicts using money and trade that hurts everyone but the wealthy?

Been there, done that, sailed by Russian submarines and ships both of us with our nuclear weapons. What a waste.

Need to find a way to respect each other and walk away from this. But I doubt anyone playing is grown up enough to do that.

[bvar22]

76. Excellent Post.

There is no warmongering going on in this establishment!!!

[go west young man]

52. Good points.

Iraq was also one of the most developed countries in the Middle East..before we bombed it into the stone age and made it almost entirely part of the Shia crescent that we were supposedly wanting to avoid. Women in Iraq were actually receiving equal education decades ago and had been allowed to forego the veil.....until we came along and started killing people.

And for many DU'ers they don't seem to grasp that is how the Russians see us these days. We are the invaders and killers in their eyes. Our propaganda has been very effective when you see these NeoCon enabling DU'ers actually pushing for a new Cold war after what the NeoCons lied us into in Iraq. It's shameful.

[sabrina 1]

26. Why are we over there interfering in a country that is none of our business? Again?

[Cali_Democrat]

29. Russia invades Ukraine with troops...

...and it's America who is interfering "over there".

[sabrina 1]

31. When did Russia invade Ukraine? There was a coup in Ukraine, I know that. But that

wasn't Russia. Are you confusing this with one of our other 'troubled spots' where we are needed to bring them some democracy?

[Cali_Democrat]

34. LOL

This is why I never take you seriously.

To me, you just provide excellent comedy.

[sabrina 1]

38. I do my best to highlight the comedy and totally hysterical hypocrisy I see now on a daily

basis. DU cannot be taken seriously anymore. Most of the good writers are gone, more leaving as DU flip flops from one position to another and back again.

Surely you didn't expect serious discussion in response to your own hilarious comments?

For serious discussion it is necessary to go elsewhere. DU has become a parady of itself, cheering for war, excusing torture, explaining corruption on Wall St, struggling to cover for War Crimes etc etc. So I just have a lot of fun here and go elsewhere when I want to learn something.

[Cali_Democrat]

40. If I wanted to have a serious discussion on this topic, it wouldn't be with you.

You're a comedian.

[sabrina 1]

42. You don't have that option I'm afraid, I only discuss serious issues with

people who understand what is going on in this world. You are one of the funniest people here though, fun to play with, definitely. And it's important to have fun, not to always be so serious, so you do perform a valuable service. I at least appreciate it.

[KoKo]

127. Sorry...double post glitch...

[KoKo]

130. "Cali-Democrat"..I don't see links from you that verify your posts....

I'm only gently chiding you...but you have "Tweety Bird" as your Sig...(perhaps not such a good choice ?) ...and that you don't verify your posts (in contrast to those who engage with you) is not such a good thing.

It would be helpful if you could "back up" your statements with documentation.

Just an observation.

Respectfully,
Koko

[SidDithers]

65. +1...nt

Sid

[joshcryer]

100. I know, those two towns in Ukraine weren't taken over.

Silly person...

[Benton D Struckcheon]

32. Pretty amazing.

[840high]

48. Yes we are. Let them

work it out.

[bvar22]

131. According to the Russia-Ukraine Treaty of 1999,

Russia is allowed to post up to 25,000 Russian Troops on the Crimean Peninsula.
The total today is about 16,000.
Putin could put 9,000 more Russian Troops into Crimea without violating ANY treaty
or anyone's national sovereignty.

NOW,
tell us all about this "Invasion" you are hyping.
Did you "hear" about the "invasion" from your friends on DU?

For other readers,
the above post by Cali_Democrat is EXACTLY what the OP was about.

[EX500rider]

134. No, we heard about it on the news like everybody else...

....and no matter how many troops Russia currently has in the Crimea (links for current level of 16,000?) they were not allowed by the treaty to hold military exercises off base. And they certainly weren't allowed to besiege Ukrainian bases or block their harbors with sunken ships. Cute Putin crush though..

[DirkGently]

10. I hurd there's "WMD" in Criminealistan! Call Toby Keith!

We need some kind of new "boot in yer ass" song to get people PUMPED UP!

[DisgustipatedinCA]

18. You're not taking this seriously.

Serious people don't listen to Toby Keith. We prefer Lee Greenwood in that powder blue jumpsuit singing God Bless the USA for the 8733'rd time.

[sabrina 1]

41. It is hard to take anything here seriously anymore, don't you think? Loyalty oaths,

censorship, explanations for torture, and Wall St corruption, 'it wasn't criminal, just immoral' etc.

Best to just have fun with all the hypocrisy. But to try to have a serious discussion, that is impossible ...

[Autumn]

14. Oh yeah I'm so gonna kick and rec this thread.

[Adrahil]

16. False Dichotomy NT

[sabrina 1]

27. Can you explain? I thought the OP was pretty clear.

[NuclearDem]

88. The OP snidely set up the false dichotomy of either pro-Putin or pro-Ukranian fascists.

Plenty of us are neither.

[sabrina 1]

93. I think you missed the reason for the OP. DU has turned into a 'Left Bashing' site where anyone who

dares to question our foreign policies, are being attacked as 'Putin/Commie lovers, in much the same way as Wing Nuts labeled Democrats who opposed Bush's wars as 'Saddam Lovers'.

There is no way we on the Left will allow that Right Meme to be used once again, against them, especially not on a Democratic Forum.

I agree that people do not fall into nice little boxes and I have the OP would agree with what you just said. But that is exactly what is going on right here on a Dem forum regarding anyone who is even questioning whether we should, once again, be getting involved in yet another conflict when we have no idea of what is really going on, and are concerned that we are hearing only what we are being told here.

[NuclearDem]

107. When there's nothing but "but the US..." arguments thrown around

It's hard to think some people don't take Putin's side.

All I want to see is some intellectual honesty. If American imperialism and violations of international law is bad, then it should be the same for Russia.

[sabrina 1]

115. Maybe I can help you understand. When US policies are harmful to the American people, anyone who

loves this country is going to speak out against those policies.

Eg, when Bush lied to get the US into the invasion of Iraq people who loved their country did everything they could to stop him.

We failed. Partly due to the fact that he got support from Partisan, Loyal Republicans who called those of us who loved this country enough to try to save it from his destructive policies, 'Saddam Lovers', see, it was hard for them to see why anyone would not just blindly support their 'country' and the only reason they could think of, supplied for them by the Right Wing Noise Machine who told them what to think, had to be because we 'loved Saddam'.

I don't know, but I am assuming since you are here, YOU understood that Democrats, DUers, did not 'love Saddam' and were NOT 'Blame America Firsters' another of their labels to use against Americans who did not support Bush's harmful policies.

So why now, assuming you opposed Bush policies back then, would you join the Wing Nut brigade in their belief that people who are once again opposed to policies that are harmful to this country, must be 'Putin Lovers'?

It is simply a lie, period. THIS is the country that should be OUR concern. Let Russians worry about Russia, and Iraqis worry about Iraq, Venezuelans worry about Venezuela, Libyans worry about Libya, because this country is being drained of its ability to take care of THIS country due to our 'concerns' for every country in the world, other than our own.

This country has the potential to be a shining light to the rest of the world. THAT is what anyone who cares about it wants it to be. Not running around the world with our bombs and torture chambers, and war criminals, killing innocent people, losing all moral authority to be an EXAMPLE of how great a country we and others who chose to follow that example, can be.

Signed, Sabrina, Saddam/Putin/Gadaffi/Assad/fill in the all the other adorable dictators I left out, Lover, Cheerleader, Fan, etc etc

THAT is what this OP is about.

[go west young man]

120. Great post.

[bvar22]

133. Very Well Done, sabrina 1.

Thank You.

[EX500rider]

135. "This country has the potential to be a shining light to the rest of the world"

By ignoring the world? How's that work?

Isolationist or modern Russian version of the Bund Party....hmmmm hard to say.

[sabrina 1]

136. I said we should be isolationist? Where was that in my comment?

[EX500rider]

139. I don't know, maybe right HERE:

THIS is the country that should be OUR concern. Let Russians worry about Russia, and Iraqis worry about Iraq, Venezuelans worry about Venezuela, Libyans worry about Libya, because this country is being drained of its ability to take care of THIS country due to our 'concerns' for every country in the world, other than our own.

[sabrina 1]

141. And just why did we go to Iraq? I know what Bush said, well after he said it was to defend us

against WMDs and Mushroom clouds.

Do you seriously think we went there to bring 'democracy' to that country? We killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people in their own country, we took control of their resources, handing them over to Global Oil Cartels, tortured and imprisoned their citizens, destroyed their infrastructure, drove millions into refugee camps, people who used to be middle class, with jobs and families.

Is that you have in mind as 'non-isolationist'??

Have you followed up on what has happened to Libya since we were 'non-isolationist' there also? We left it a living nightmare of roving bands of armed terrorists, preying on the population, torturing and killing at random. But we got control of the oil, again.

Invading and raiding other nations to get control of their resources, see South America eg, where our best 'Allies' were always DICTATORS who tortured and murdered their own people, many times with our blessing, see Kissenger, War Criminal.

What exactly is your idea of being 'non-isolationist'?

Mine is that we go to war ONLY when we are directly threatened.

That we use our influence NOT TO SUPPORT DICTATORS, which are currently doing in many countries, but to CONDEMN and ISOLATE them, certainly NEVER to fund them, as we are currently doing.

Our policies have made people desperate for help, the people of Uzbekistan eg, whose dictator we are propping up. How does that translate to helping people?

Or our 'allies' in Bahrain, a dictatorship that oppresses its people shamefully. Or Saudi Arabia, do I have to go into detail?

If we want to be NON-Isolationist and help people, we can start by ending our support for what CAUSES them to need help.

After that, when the Dictators of the world learn that they can no longer rely on US to keep them propped up, we can begin to consider where our help might be needed.

Pinochet, Pol Pot, Saudi Arabia, Uganda, Bahrain, Egypt and many, many more, THIS is our foreign policy. We are NOT helping people, we are doing the exact opposite.

If that is what you mean by being 'non-Isolationist, I and millions of people, especially the victims, beg to differ.

[EX500rider]

142. Gotya, you don't care who dies around the world as long as we don't help.

[sabrina 1]

144. No, you did not 'get me'. But if over a million dead people is your idea of being

non-isolationist, if supporting Dictators is your idea of being non-isolationist, I think I gotYA!

[NuclearDem]

17. No, the Neo-Nazis and fascists in Ukraine are bad too.

But I do find it funny how so many will perform all sorts of logic gymnastics to go after one group of fascists while deflecting blame and criticism from another. I guess it's only imperialism and anti-democracy when the West does it.

Though I'm now ready for my word entree. Thanks!

[11 Bravo]

20. Reality called. She says you left your shoes under the bed when you departed.

[sabrina 1]

28. Your comment isn't relevant to the OP. It makes no sense. What are you trying to

say? I notice that those who dropped in with nonsensical comments have not actually made any point. If you have a point, I am interested.

[Spider Jerusalem]

35. This attitude? Shocking display of Ugly Americanism.

Sorry, but: Putin's intervention in Ukraine is in violation of international law; the Crimean independence referendum is in violation of international law. The USA (along with other world powers like the UK and France and Germany) has spoken out against Putin's violations of international law. As is right and proper; the US is a leading NATO member and a permanent member of the UN security council (as are the UK and France who have also spoken out against Putin's actions in the Crimea). If international institutions like NATO and the UN mean anything at all countries like the USA have a responsibility due to their positions of leadership in those institutions. Great power, great responsibility and all that. Responding to aggression along with the other members of the international community (like, again, France, Germany, the UK, et al) does not constitute "warmongering"; to characterise it as such is frankly stupid.

[laundry_queen]

44. +1 nt

[ColesCountyDem]

60. *applause*

[renegade000]

78. what really gets me is,

if the shoe were on the other foot, like say if the US was in secret dealing with the local government of the Mexican state of Chihuahua, and sent military units there to protect the region from "narco-fascists", then facilitated a hastily conducted referendum on whether or not Chihuahua should either join the US or become an autonomous region... all against the protests of the Mexican federal government and the international community... i'm pretty sure the current Putin apologist crowd would (rightfully) be going apeshit over "American imperialism!", "warmongering!", "the evil of the Mexican-American War all over again!"

[TheKentuckian]

106. I am not a citizen of Russia so while I disagree with what they are doing I'm not getting the bill

nor is it my name.

Focusing first on one's own messes is nothing to disparage and acting where you are at least supposed to have influence rather than trying to dictate the affairs on the other side of the globe isn't hating your country or giving anyone a pass.

Do I like it? Not at all. What am I willing to do about it? Not much and as such see little use in much screaming about and more important to tamp down on the heat. We are a country quick to do stupid and disastrous things in such arenas. McShame and friends driving for hot war.

I also don't believe we have any room to talk in mid "looking forward". I really don't get that and it seems that among the most willing to bloodlessly swallow that shit are the most passionate this situation and demand consequences for others get real fucking huffy if someone says Russia should pay the same price we did for going into Iraq, a world away.

[renegade000]

113. I'm not willing to do much about it either

nor do i think we ought to (willingness aside), which is why I think the token sanctions, milquetoast finger-wagging, and guarded monitoring of the situation is the appropriate response. Of course, then I log onto DU and half the place is acting like we're about to launch our own counter-invasion of Crimea. It's great to try to tamp down a tense situation, but I find it disturbing when Orwellian WAR is PEACE/PEACE is WAR mental contortions are used to that end, desirable though it may be.

[Catherina]

37. DU rec for a fine post about the simpleton mindset that goes along with whatever the MSM says n/t

[joshcryer]

39. That is illogical.

But what else do I expect?

[Fumesucker]

46. It sure is...

And yet we see this very scenario played out evidently in all seriousness right here on DU every day now it seems.

[joshcryer]

49. I see it from all sides.

Generally the critically unthinking. DUers tend to be smarter than that but smarts don't drive threads. Gotta be flame bait.

[Fumesucker]

56. I see one side calling another side "Putin lovers"

I remember being called a "Saddam lover" by Wingnuts way back when, that sort of phraseology doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy to read it on DU.

Being lambasted for insufficiently hating the designated villain du jour is not my idea of critical thinking.

[joshcryer]

68. The difference is that DUers roundly condemned the Iraq invasion.

Because we knew WMDs weren't there.

But ethnic Russian persecution must be going on in Ukraine (new thinker or whatever the nick is says that), or the situation is "complex" (you? Can't remember) or as reformist2 claims Crimea is rightly Russia's. Or as cosmicone says, Putin is brilliant. That sort of shit did not exist here.

[Fumesucker]

75. DUers know and knew domestic US politics, they knew what was driving the invasion of Iraq

Who the hell here knows Ukrainian politics or Russian politics for that matter?

It's a political Rorschach test to a big extent, project your biases on the very murky events in Ukraine and Crimea.

Just like a whole bunch of people suddenly became ace plane crash investigators a bunch more became experts on Ukraine.

Politics aren't simple anywhere and particularly so in a patch of land that has been invaded and re-invaded and re-re-invaded for a millennium at least.

[joshcryer]

79. Most importantly, the international community was against it.

For some DUers it's as simple as that.

Putin's invasion was illegal in the same way Bush's was.

You don't have to understand the politics to be against it.

[Fumesucker]

80. I know what I think would be the most effective statement the USA could make about Putin

In fact I had an OP up about it a few days ago.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024638671

[joshcryer]

81. Goes without saying.

Too bad Obama doesn't even have the fortitude to put sanctions on the oligarchs.

[bvar22]

111. Russia is allowed to station 25,000 Russian Troops on the Crimean Peninsula by 1999 Treaty.

The current level of Russian Troops is estimated to be about 16,000.

According to the 1999 Treaty the Russian Troops were to be restricted to their bases.
Witnesses have reported that an undetermined number of Russian Troops have left their bases,
and been relocated to areas in the Southern Crimean Peninsula that are predominately Russian by population.

While your posts to this thread have been reasonable, knowledgeable, and practical,
calling this a Russian "Invasion" of the Ukraine isn't really true.
At best, it can be labeled a minor Treaty violation.


Never-the-Less, your analysis that the USA will do nothing is level headed.
There is nothing we CAN do.

[KoKo]

118. and notice how that's conveniently ignored by our MSTV Media and by

some here who repeat a meme that Russia invaded Crimea. Their base in Crimea is exactly what you say 25,000 troops per their agreement.

Thank you for posting that. If you gave some of them the copy of the very signed agreement they would not read it or they would dismiss it claiming that Russian agreements are not valid no matter who they are signed with and that the agreement was not translated correctly.

[joshcryer]

137. The treaty does not allow off base occupation.

The international community has roundly condemned this as an invasion. Your sad revisionism doesn't change that fact.

[Mr.Bill]

43. I can show you wingnut forums

where they say they would vote for Putin if he ran for president here.

[Fumesucker]

47. The OP was talking about DU

We all know the "team players" will switch ideologies as soon as the White House changes hands.

All of a sudden it will be cool once again on DU to oppose the wishes of the POTUS.

And of course it will be cool once again on FR to support the administration.

[Mr.Bill]

53. I know. n/t

[joshcryer]

58. DU is far more critical of POTUS than supportive.

Hell, it literally started when he picked Warren for the inauguration. I think the public option cave was what hardened people here against him.

If the WH switches, at least those being critical won't have to hear the constant barrage about how they support position X when they don't.

[Fumesucker]

67. I think those who were critical of the Warren choice have been shown ultimately correct

It took a while but Warren certainly showed us who he is.

And I don't think Obama remotely "caved" on the public option, it was only there to get votes and there was no intention of ever implementing it.

[joshcryer]

101. I think it was predictable.

Hope and Change was a campaign slogan.

As far as the public option it was definitely on the table up to a few weeks before the vote. Even milquetoast conservative Baucus was pushing for it. But since Franken was being sabotaged, and we had to rely on Lieberman, and Ted Kennedy died, we couldn't get it. The votes weren't there. I'm glad we got the mandate (only because it helped the deficit fight since OMB said it was more cost effective) as it will force states to adopt public options or even single payer by 2017. The rapid developments for health care are going to be seen before the end of this decade. The great thing about this is that the prediction is pretty much testable in DU time. Most of us should be around to see whether it's proven or not.

It's an unpopular opinion but I don't see Obama as much of a domestic policy fighter though I think he's done well foreign policy wise. Would it be that he put on those comfortable pair of shoes. Hell I think even I bought that line... I mean what bigger image would there have been? Suggest a positive domestic policy proposal, large march with the people, I mean, damn... so easy, impossible to spin as negative. Anyone trying would've looked like idiots. It didn't happen. The public option would've been the perfect time to do it. Majorities in the House, a majority in the Senate for about a month or so, the timing would've been tight, but it would've worked.

I expect further incursions into Ukraine, it may be a year or more, or it could be a few months from now, but I think Putin is trying desperately to build a new Iron Curtain, and eastern Ukrainians will be it. The question will be whether he can pull off the same vote in Crimea, when only 12% are ethnic Russian there. Offering good pensions and a lowered retirement age will be very valuable, but then Putin has completely savaged Russia's retirement fund, so he'll have to try this sooner rather than later.

Alright I'm rambling and depressing myself. We don't really disagree on much though I throw this sort of wall of text out there. Frankly, I think Putin's actions aren't hugely bad, only 4 people got killed so far due to it. I expect a dozen or two over the coming months or years. But that's what, a few drone strikes? Perspective and all... it was still illegal and still imperialist, and I feel I can judge it without being a hypocrite.

[baldguy]

50. I guess you're saying that if we just let Putin have Crimea we'll have Peace In Our Time?

[sabrina 1]

98. What business of ours is the Ukraine? How does our government's involvement in Ukraine benefit the

American people? Most Americans don't have a clue about the place, yet they are suddenly experts on what WE SHOULD DO about it.

I thought we had no money to pay for school lunches for our own children. Now I learn we are sending BILLIONS to yet another foreign country, for what? What will the return be for the American people for their tax dollars that suddenly appeared out of nowhere to 'invest' in Ukraine?

What did the American people get for the billions they invested in Iraq. We got a DEFICIT, some people profited hugely, a lot of people died, but what did the American people get for their money?

[freedom fighter jh]

54. To side with the new regime in Ukraine . . .

. . . is to side with Nazis.

Putin is no hero, but next to the Nazis in Ukraine he's looking pretty good.

[bvar22]

64. It is difficult to get good information from that area.

*Our Government and Security/Surveillance State has proved they are more than willing to LIE to us.

*Our Media will never recover from their shameless Cheer Leading for the Iraq Invasion,
including (and especially) the NY Times.

*The Radio is a nightmare of contradictory information.


Some of the Foreign Press seems to have some good dope,
and the stories I read about Svoboda - Ukrainian nationalist political party scares my socks off.
Those who have studied History recognize this national pathology for what it is.

I need to know WHO and WHAT and HOW before committing to ANY action in the Ukraine.

[geek tragedy]

110. believe it or not, not everyone in Ukraine who isn't loyal to Russia is a Nazi.

In fact, the vast majority of Ukrainians in and out of the current interim government who favor friendlier ties with Europe are not Nazis.

[freedom fighter jh]

116. Do you have a source?

I, unfortunately, do not. But I get the impression that the folks in charge just now are predominantly Nazis.

If you have a source showing that they are not, then you win. Otherwise it's your unsupported word against my unsupported word.

[geek tragedy]

117. The Prime Minister is Arseniy Yatsenyuk, who is not a Nazi.

Maybe you should research stuff instead of going by the "sense" you get from the air.

[freedom fighter jh]

119. It was not just a sense; it was a video that clearly said so but

just now I haven't got the time to find it.

Maybe you should find a sense of humor.

[The Second Stone]

57. GWB looked into his eyes and saw a good soul

or a soul at least a lot better than his. If it's good enough for Dubyastep, it's good enough for me.

[tabasco]

63. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzz zz z .. .

[Tommy_Carcetti]

66. Well, almost everybody.

There is this guy:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4677598

"This recent situation in Crimea, I believe, is a godsend. First, it has permitted the situation here in Kiev to assume a certain level of normalcy. And I've been thinking recently that how much better the 20th century would have been if, within the first couple of months of Hitler's rule in Germany, someone had decided it was time to put an end to his nonsense and went ahead and invaded Germany. Maybe people in the states don't learn from history, but it certainly looks like Mr. Putin has. "

[stupidicus]

69. well, if you listen to and unquesionably believe the same media that sold the Iraq War

then you need to learn a lesson or two.

He really plays the role of Snowden in this story, insomuch as a focus on him and his actions obscure those of others that went a long way towards precipitating the events we were all swept up into.

[WillyT]

70. K & R !!!

[JEB]

72. The Looting Of Ukraine Has Begun

http://www.opednews.com/articles/The-Looting-Of-Ukraine-Has-by-Paul-Craig-Roberts-Crimea_Euro_Putin_Russia-140306-182.html?show=votes

Several posters seem intent on ginning up the Jingoistic fervor.

[grahamhgreen]

103. Did you OP this?

[Cryptoad]

74. The GOP

oragnaized, focused and defeated the Democrats while the the Democrats argued with each other over who to suck up to the most, Putin or Snowden.

[blackspade]

77. The issue I'm having with the whole Ukraine situation

Is that I don't really see any good guys in all this.
On one side it looks increasingly likely that the US/EU toppled the pro-Russian administration for a more economically pliant one. That is not to say that the guy driven from power was a good guy. It looks like he is a crook, but that is beside the point. If we are behind this unrest we have gone and fucked ourselves again. If we used RW thugs to do it, we are idiots. That has never worked for us in the long run (unless you are the one making money...).

On the other hand we have Putin, a RW authoritarian opportunist who has invaded and annexed a portion of a neighboring country on the flimsiest of pretenses. By forcing the Crimea to secede he has shown that he is willing to employ fascist tactics to get what he wants. He preaches liberation, but at home is cracking down on descent over this and other authoritarian practices.

I would like to see some balance to these Ukrainian discussions, because at this point the bullshit is so thick it is getting hard to ferret out the nuggets of reality from the whirlwind of spin.

[steve2470]

84. nuance

1- The US government was involved in some way with the government change in Ukraine.

2- Yes, some of the new government is neo-Nazi/ultra-nationalist.

3- I have not seen convincing evidence that Viktor Yanukovych (the former PM) was forced out against his will. He fled to Russia. If someone has really good evidence, I'm open to reading it. My understanding is that Yanukovych voluntarily resigned. Not at gunpoint.

4- Some of the Maidan protesters were Neo-Nazi. Exactly how many, I do not know.

5- The US government was probably involved, to some extent, with the Maidan protests. Exactly how much, I do not know.

6- My reading of international law is that Crimea was part of Ukraine from 1954 until today. My understanding of international law is that Crimea is still part of Ukraine, despite the referendum.

7- Mr. Putin and the Russian people have legitimate concerns about the new government and the violence that has occurred in Ukraine.

8- Military action by the Russian Federation is not justified by my knowledge of international law.

9- It's fine with me if Crimea wishes to be either 1) an autonomous republic or 2) a province of the Russian Federation. My only issue is with following both Ukraine law and international law.

10- Mr. Putin should address his legitimate concerns via the UN and other agencies.

That's as calm, logical and even-handed as I can address it. Well-established facts are welcome.

Steve

[McCamy Taylor]

86. We've had worse American presidents than Putin.

[steve2470]

87. James K. Polk springs to mind

Unfortunately he was a Democrat. Thankfully that was 168 years ago.

[go west young man]

91. It doesn't get much worse than Bush..

Two stolen elections, two wars, the destruction of the economy, the dismantling of FEMA, the SEC, NASA, The EPA, PBS and NPR, the corruption of the Justice department, the loss of life in Katrina, rendition, torture, spying on regular citizens, the $780 billion giveaway to the top 1% who sunk the economy and the complete distrust and loss of respect for the USA from the rest of the world. The only good thing he did was helped more quickly bring to light the nefarious things our government does....thereby hopefully helping us regrow and learn from our mistakes.

I seriously hoped the crimes of Iraq would have been prosecuted by now. It's sad that the USA hasn't taken the step to rectify that wrong for the Iraqi people.

[steve2470]

92. truth nt

[renegade000]

95. an apt choice given the current situation

definitely need to make sure that Crimea is free from Mexican tyranny! er... I mean Ukranian...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

104. Would you like to link to some of these posts calling for war? I haven't seen even one. N.T.

[go west young man]

122. The war they are calling for is a new Cold one....

as orchestrated by the NeoCons and our enabling media. This new Cold War will cost Americans money fro social programs, education, health care, retirement...you name it. The only people that will benefit from the new Cold war will be the top 1% and those who have screwed this country for so long. Enjoy your war...if that's what you truly wish for. Personally I prefer peace and elections.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

125. So that would be a "no", then? You admit no-one is actually calling for war?

[ZombieHorde]

109. Who is saying this?

If you're not FOR WAR in The Ukraine you're WITH PUTIN!!!!

Have you seen people saying this, and if so, where? Here on DU? Is it a Republican thing?

The crossed examples you provide to make your point I have seen, so I wouldn't be surprised to see people say the same about Ukraine and Putin, but I haven't been paying that close of attention to the rhetoric.

[Cali_Democrat]

112. Nobody

Certainly nobody on DU or in the Obama admin.

The OP made it up.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

123. And, a really, really, skeery Bogeyman to the gullible.

[Progressive dog]

140. So we should just let Putin take back his slave states

and never venture outside of the USA. We could even stop supporting our allies, and ignore what Germany, France, U.K., etc. want. We could just pretend that what happens in the rest of the world doesn't affect us.
We could have rolled over when the communists blockaded West Berlin, when they attacked us in S. Korea, when the communist Chinese attacked Taiwan, or when they moved the nuclear weapons into Cuba. Would the world have been a better place if we had?
We could have ignored the Al Quaeda attack on the embassies, on the Cole, on the world trade center, on the pentagon. We could have allowed the taliban to continue protecting the Al Quaeda camps and keep their vicious dictatorship. Do you think they'd be sending us thank you cards if we had?
Libya began as a civil war. The United Nations established the no fly zone, not the USA. The last I knew, Russia and China both had a veto on UN security council resolutions. Qaddafi the terrorist dictator terrorist was killed. Why is the USA alone responsible for UN actions?
The USA has no forces in Ukraine. It has no drones, it has fired no weapons. The US has not threatened the use of force, and as far as I am aware neither have it's European allies. Russia does have forces in Ukraine. Why is it wrong for the US government to peacefully oppose this?