It’s Time to End ‘Rape Culture’ Hysteria

[AngryAmish]

http://time.com/30545/its-time-to-end-rape-culture-hysteria/

"The nation's largest and most influential anti-sexual-violence organization is rejecting the idea that culture — as opposed to the actions of individuals — is responsible for rape.

“Rape is as American as apple pie,” says blogger Jessica Valenti. She and her sisters-in-arms describe our society as a “rape culture” where violence against women is so normal, it’s almost invisible. Films, magazines, fashion, books, music, humor, even Barbie — according to the activists — cooperate in conveying the message that women are there to be used, abused, and exploited. Recently, rape culture theory has migrated from the lonely corners of the feminist blogosphere into the mainstream. In January, the White House asserted that we need to combat campus rape by “[changing] a culture of passivity and tolerance in this country, which too often allows this type of violence to persist.”

Tolerance for rape? Rape is a horrific crime and rapists are despised. We have strict laws that Americans want to see enforced. Though rape is certainly a serious problem, there’s no evidence that it’s considered a cultural norm. Twenty-first century America does not have a rape culture; what we have is an out-of-control lobby leading the public and our educational and political leaders down the wrong path. Rape culture theory is doing little to help victims, but its power to poison the minds of young women and lead to hostile environments for innocent males is immense.

On college campuses, obsession with eliminating “rape culture” has led to censorship and hysteria. At Boston University, student activists launched a petition demanding the cancellation of a Robin Thicke concert, because the lyrics of his hit song “Blurred Lines” allegedly celebrate “systemic patriarchy and sexual oppression.” (The lyrics may not exactly be pleasant to many women, but song lyrics don’t turn men into rapists. Yet, ludicrously, the song has already been banned at more than 20 British universities.) Activists at Wellesley recently demanded that administrators remove a statue of a sleepwalking man: The image of a nearly naked male could “trigger” memories of sexual assault for victims. Meanwhile, a growing number of young men find themselves charged with rape, named publicly, and brought before campus judicial panels informed by rape culture theory. In such courts, due process is practically non-existent: Guilty because accused."...

and who is the author (this is an op-ed): "Caroline Kitchens is a research assistant at the American Enterprise Institute." In the immortal words of Baron Von Rashcke, that is all the people need to know.

[JustAnotherGen]

1. This

Caroline Kitchens is a research assistant at the American Enterprise Institute


Again:
Caroline Kitchens is a research assistant at the American Enterprise Institute

[redqueen]

14. Typical, isn't it? nt

[theHandpuppet]

21. Yep.

I don't really understand the purpose of posting this RW article here on DU.

[seabeyond]

29. angry is letting us women know how hysterical we are talking about the rape culture? nt

[marions ghost]

156. People need to see

what distortions are out there....so I'm OK with posting it here.

So tear it down.

[JustAnotherGen]

23. Yeppers!

[BainsBane]

58. our basic right to be free from

Violence is hyateria, but we are supposed to consider them out allies. If someone is so put our over my right, and those of the other third of the population subject to rape or partner violence, to live free from assault, they have made clear they oppose my most basic human rights, which makes them the opposite of an ally.

[Zorra]

33. Oh, my. You, my dear JustAnotherGen, deserve a star. nt

[Warpy]

78. I'd like to know why such fascist garbage is posted on DU

I know I'm late to the party, but didn't anybody think to alert?

This should have been gone ten minutes after it was posted.

It's sickening to find it here on DU.

[malokvale77]

86. I think the OP was dissing...

the garbage.

The last line - "and who is the author (this is an op-ed): "Caroline Kitchens is a research assistant at the American Enterprise Institute." In the immortal words of Baron Von Rashcke, that is all the people need to know."

It was a heads up post.

[JustAnotherGen]

87. ^this^

[cui bono]

139. Would be better to make it more obvious.

I didn't realize that until a very close look. And a lot of people skim OPs and don't get all the way to the bottom of a long one like this.

[malokvale77]

168. I know...

that's why I quit starting my own threads. Most here never get past the title before they start flaming.

I read the whole OP before I decide whether to respond. Even then it is sometimes a matter of nuance and knowing the poster.

And then again, some subjects are just volatile.

[noiretextatique]

106. Hello!

trolls don't even try hard anymore

[Sarah Ibarruri]

144. Exactly! Nothing else need be said. She's a neo-con supporting her misogynist RW pals nt

[Ron Green]

2. "Time" and other MSM will support capitalism and the patriarchy.

It's just what they do.

[seabeyond]

3. “Rape is as American as apple pie,” add ala mode. too clever, and we are only talking rape. nt

[gollygee]

4. Wow, you couldn't get a more right-wing source

than the American Enterprise Institute.

I am not surprised that they deny rape culture.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

5. Um, no.

What you talk about and what the people talking about 'rape culture' are talking about are two entirely different faces of rape and sexual assault. It's pretty much the same difference seen in discussions about racism. Yes, there are violent stranger rapes, just as there are out and out racial bigots such as neo-nazis and the KKK. But there are also a hell of a lot of women being raped on college campuses or in high school, simply because they're too drunk or otherwise incapacitated to be able to clearly say no and extract themselves from situations that have turned dangerous.

And culture shapes actions. We had a generation of 'teen' movies that essentially told men in college the way to have sex with women was to get them drinking, then to be sexually aggressive. Then we backed that up by offering squat in classes on 'sex ed' other than the barest biological mechanics, or 'don't do it' messages. Nothing on actually dealing with potential partners as human beings, as people to deal with on an equal, sober footing.

You 'hook up' with a drunk woman at a party and have sex? That's still rape. When you go to 'cruise' drunk women? It's because you know that if they're sober, they won't have sex with you, and that means you know you're looking to rape someone.

There's no 'hysteria' here. There's a recognition that most rapes are not violent strangers leaping out of bushes, but horny guys trying to find women who wouldn't say 'yes' if they were sober.

[derby378]

7. Define "drunk"

In Texas, if your BAC is .08, you're too drunk to drive, but are you too drunk to consent to sex?

And yes, I agree that if you have sex with a woman who is passed out drunk, that counts as rape. But trying to legislate a point between these two extremes can be harder than you think.

[redqueen]

16. Here we go again.

Maybe someone will bother to explain this again. I doubt it since the past fifty-bazillion discussions have made any discernible progress in explaining how its really not as confusing as some men seem determined to believe.

[derby378]

19. All I know as the husband of a rape survivor is that if she doesn't consent, then that's that

That's pretty cut-and-dried to me, but then again, I must have avoided those other discussions because the two of us were busy building a life together.

[Squinch]

82. Just saw your other post, so I'm self deleting comments trying to get you to rethink this position.

[qazplm]

26. legally no it isn't

"drunk" is not a legal term in this area. There are no jurisdictions that I'm aware of that only require a woman to be "drunk" in order to be incapable of giving consent.

The word "drunk" is very nebulous. The words used in the legal world like "substantially incapacitated" "impaired" and the like aren't tremendously better defined but they are a lot better defined than "drunk."

Juries struggle with this all of the time. .08 isn't going to get you there in most cases, but it obviously is something less than so drunk that you are literally passed out. Where that line lay between those two is something that legal communities and juries have struggled with and continue to struggle with.

Then you have blackout. A state whereby to someone on the outside, you appear capable of making decisions. You aren't passed out, and you are making decisions, but your ability to form short-term memories has been blocked by too much alcohol. So on the one hand, you've consumed enough alcohol that one might fairly argue you are "substantially incapacitated" and can't consent, on the other hand, to another person, you are walking, talking, and making decisions, even engaging in behavior indicating interest in sex.

Which is where the mistake of fact defense comes in. The person was drunk, couldn't consent, but you "reasonably mistook" that fact. And that adds another layer to the complexity, particularly for juries. Ok, she was legally not able to consent because of alcohol, but what if she looked like she was?

Now, you lay out a scenario where a sober (or near sober) guy goes out and cruises for drunk women. I agree that scenario is more likely to lead to rape because of the inherent power disparity between someone inebriated and someone sober. However, you are going to have a hard time proving in most cases that a guy went out to "cruise" drunk women.

In my experience prosecuting and defending these cases, most of the time, the accused and the alleged victim had some sort of prior relationship (dating, friends, acquaintances) and they didn't just meet up at the bar at last call (although I'm sure that happens). In most of the cases I've seen, both parties are at least somewhat intoxicated to varying degrees.

It's not a clear-cut, obvious thing, because if it were, my and my prosecutor's conviction rate would have been higher. I had cases where I believed the alleged victim but simply did not have the evidence to put forward BRD about intoxication, and when I did it usually involved the narrower slice you described (sober guy, drunk woman, no prior relationship).

I think the term "rape culture" is over-stated. First, it isn't an "American" problem, it's a human problem. Second, alcohol and sex have gone together since time immemorial. Not defending it, we grow as humans and realize some things we did for a long time are now wrong. However, the relationship between the two is there. I do think we have an alcohol problem in general in this country, and believe if we could find a way to de-glamourize it like we are just finally beginning to do with smoking, we'd benefit the entire country in a myriad of ways, including the sexual assault problem.

[chervilant]

151. You've (unwittingly?) provided

a textbook example of rape culture:

But there are also a hell of a lot of women being raped on college campuses or in high school, simply because they're too drunk or otherwise incapacitated to be able to clearly say no and extract themselves from situations that have turned dangerous.

A person is raped because a rapist targeted that person, period. Please stop blaming rape survivors. Please learn how rape culture shapes the basic precepts that enable you to post that assertion without understanding that you're blaming rape victims.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

152. I don't blame survivors or victims.

I may have worded my comment poorly, but nothing in it was meant to 'blame' them. The rapist is the rapist, period. But the same culture that teaches the rapist to be a rapist shapes the behaviour of the victims too. The victims are victims not only of the rapist, but of the very culture that shapes how people 'party', that tells them what behaviour is 'expected' of them, and 'societally acceptable'. Pointing that out is not 'blaming the victim', simply pointing out how the problem IS a cultural issue, that there are external societal pressures upon them that aid the rapist to the victim's detriment.

[chervilant]

153. You might appreciate

"The Bro Code," a documentary which richly illustrates how patriarchal precepts shape our sociocultural beliefs, behaviors, and expectations.

[Thinkingabout]

6. Rape is not an act of passion, it is an act of violence.

If some think this is over reaction it is not. If the excuse of a female is dressing too sexy and it resulted in rape then seeing a statue of a half naked man can also bring back ugly memories to a rape victim. It is not only in America but many other countries and more attention to the seriousness of this crime.

[derby378]

8. Not violence, but power

Taking advantage of a woman who passed out from drunkenness is hardly violent in and of itself, but it does speak of asserting power over her and subjugating her will to yours. Hence, my argument.

[1StrongBlackMan]

11. You're kidding right? ...

Taking advantage of a woman who passed out from drunkenness is hardly violent in and of itself ...

Rape is an act of violence expressed through asserting one's power over another.

[derby378]

17. See #7 (n/t)

[1StrongBlackMan]

34. I'll repeat ..

Rape IS violence. Period. End of thought.

[redqueen]

38. These kinds of threads never fail

to elicit some of the most disturbing posts on DU.

[Scootaloo]

130. Shit like Derby's post almost makes me ashamed to post on DU

[cui bono]

150. derby has seen the light and made a public acknowledgment of it. Please see link:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4703547

[ismnotwasm]

159. I can't do it

Tired of feminist baiting. I'm trashing the thread.

[ScreamingMeemie]

20. +1

There are no words...

[1StrongBlackMan]

32. Yes there are ..

But they just can't be shared in polite company.

[cui bono]

141. Oh... wow... I thought I was on DU!

I guess I've clicked onto some other, polite, message board!

[one_voice]

37. Let me explain something to you...

when you go about pounding yourself against a woman that hasn't consented, passed out or not it's violent.

Tears, rips,blood, bruising etc...those words don't sound violent to you?

There is physical evidence that a violent act has taken place.

You take the power so you can commit the violence.

[derby378]

40. Well, goooooolly, as if I couldn't have figured that out by myself

Let me explain something to you. When I was a young boy, I learned what the effects of rape were on women long before my parents had the courage to explain to me exactly what rape was. I saw the bruised and battered faces, phobias, anxiety attacks, and even minds that had slipped into the pseudowarmth of catatonia.

We are not talking about using fists and knives against a woman who is passed out drunk. We are talking about an opportunistic punk kid who stumbles upon a coed who is passed out on the bed during a house party. He lifts her skirt, has his way with her, and slips out of the room without leaving a single bruise or tear. This is rape, capiche?

Just because my definition of "violence" may not conform to your definition doesn't make it any less rape, nor any less traumatic.

[one_voice]

41. You keep believing that...

Rape is always an act of violence. The fact you're trying to down play that says more about you than me.

[derby378]

42. Sorry, but as I said many times before, I'm not politically correct

And thanks for the sneering innuendo, much appreciated. Cheers!

[Democracyinkind]

43. You can leave out "politically". You're simply "not correct". nt

[cyberswede]

47. It's violent to stick your body parts into the body parts of a passed out person.

That should be obvious.

[derby378]

49. You are right

And I feel like I owe a big apology to everyone I've just been debating, but not here. A friend helped me see the obvious thing that I've overlooked for so long, and I'll explain in greater detail in another thread.

I'm wearing this for the time being...

[cyberswede]

60. I appreciate your reply.

[redqueen]

62. ...

[BainsBane]

73. That opportunist punk kid is a violent predator

a rapist. Your definition is wrong as defined by the law and any and every reasonable person on the planet. Rape is itself violent. There is no such thing as non-violent rape any more than there is non-violent murder. If that punk kid takes the opportunity to kill you rather than rape a woman, he isn't any less a murderer or any less a violent rapist. Those who would excuse or diminish his actions are actively perpetrating the rape culture than leads to jail time in only 3% of rape cases. which is exactly how the rape apologists like Caroline Kitchens want it.

[SQUEE]

50. violence.. to impose your will on another is violence

Simple, informed and sober consent means yes... ANYTHING else is coercive. Not all violence results in a black eye or a bloody nose.

Shit this is really not that fucking hard.
To utilize another human being as nothing more than a receptacle is dehumanizing and sick. Anyone that can justify intercourse with a unconsciuos human being as anything but violence has no true respect for human dignity.

[derby378]

52. Well said - and you might want to read this

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024703547

[SQUEE]

53. I did

Kudos to you for the ability to stop and listen, I too had this awakening when my sister shared her experience in school, of having been violated while passed out at a party in High School, my first reaction was to kill the people involved, she asked me not too, it was just more of the violence, i asked what violence, it was wrong yes and disrespectful, but not violent. Her response was "what could be more violent than to take away my humanity"..

[Spazito]

59. Rape is not a violent act? You seriously believe that?

Wow...just wow.

Edited to add: I just read your thread acknowledging rape is a violent act. I appreciate your OP and your openness to listen to others on this very important issue.

[BainsBane]

70. Rape is an act of violence

and defined as a violent crime under the law. Just because you have some Akinite definition of legitimate or forcible rape vs "non-forcible", does not make it true, reasonable, or anything other than entirely offensive. Rape is violent. Any man who took the actions you describe is a violent felon not fit to live outside of prison.

[derby378]

96. I think you're late catching up - best take a look at this thread on GD

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024703547

I may be a dumbass, but at least I'm a dumbass who's open to new concepts.

[Scootaloo]

131. You're serious, aren't you?

Taking advantage of a woman who passed out from drunkenness is hardly violent in and of itself,

asserting power over her and subjugating her will to yours.

I suggest a long steamy date with a fucking dictionary, chief.

[Ohio Joe]

9. Sounds like the same bullshit our local MRA's spread

In fact, they are lying about headlines to twist an article into this same message right now:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/111413536

I have no idea why people are allowed to spread right wing bullshit like this on DU.

[Iggo]

12. Yep.

If he left out a word, and that changed the meaning of the headline and the story, that'd be one thing. It could have been an innocent mistake.

But he ADDED a word to change the meaning of the headline and the story. No mistake.

Dude needs to be shit-canned.

[laundry_queen]

148. Totally agree. nt

[redqueen]

18. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[seabeyond]

22. i agree ohio joe. thank you for pointing this out. again. nt

[La Lioness Priyanka]

171. so true

[Brickbat]

10. "Censorship and hysteria."

Tells me all I need to know right there.

[Iggo]

13. "Hysteria"?

My dog is asking you to quit with the whistling already, Ms Kitchens.

[PeaceNikki]

93. my first thought as well.

Shameful.

Whatever point this author is trying to make is lost.

[myrna minx]

15. And a mighty whistle blows...

What a nasty "article".

[G_j]

24. fail

Commentary coming from the people who have been waging war on women's rights? no thanks

[Blecht]

25. What a pile of horseshit

Time is even more rightwing than I thought.

Please stop posting this drivel.

[Lunacee_2013]

27. Lol, what rape culture?

Maybe I just know a lot of sexual assault/rape victims, but almost every female (and even some males) I know has a story. Everything from catching a strange male at her bedroom window, to being drugged at a club, to being chased in a dark parking lot at night, to being beaten by a boyfriend, to all out stranger-in-the-night raped.

I've had to push an unknown male intruder back out of my bedroom window when I was 11. I had to fight off what I thought was a male friend when I was 12 because he tried to rape me at a friend's house. I've been chased many times just walking to the store. When I was 14 a friend of a neighbor told me he wanted to rape me while I was in my own damn front yard. I had a stalker when I was 17, and when I tried to get a restraining order against him, the state told me that he had to physically hurt me first, that threatening phone calls and letters didn't count. I've been physically attacked more than once by men I did not know. I've had more shit happen to me that only 3 other people know about. The only reason I've never actually been raped is because 1) I've been lucky, 2) other people saw what was happening and thankfully helped me, and 3) I always have pepper spray and a knife on me when I leave my house. I don't care what this "researcher" says, rape culture is real.

Btw,, isn't the conviction rate for rape in the u.s. something like 3-5%? Someone posted a graph about it a few weeks ago, I'll see if I can find it.

[bullwinkle428]

28. "Time" apparently thinks it can provide a sheen of respectability

for the kind of thinking that produces a "study" like this, but it's hard to stop the misogynistic stench emanating from it.

[seabeyond]

30. do you support this article angry? is that why you posted it? if you do not come back on the OP

to have any discussion or address the issue being presented to you, about posting this article, what does that tell us about your position?

[AngryAmish]

35. I don't appreciate the innuendo

I posted the article, from a mainstream source, and noted who the author was and her agenda. This BS is migrating to the larger culture. Do you think I agree with the American Enterprise Inst.? Please. That was clear from the OP.

And I was working, oddly enough.

[redqueen]

39. Your comment at the end does not stand out

since the excerpt is not clearly defined using italics, the excerpted text format, etc.

Many people (most?) aren't going to read four lengthy paragraphs of anti-feminist hate speech so a lot of people will be missing your comment at the bottom.

[seabeyond]

46. No innuendo. I flat out asked. I feel it is better to ask than blindly accuse.

Thank you for clarifying you do not support what this article is saying.

I have put ops article up that I strongly disagree with. I also make comments pointing out my issue with what I am posting. If you make no comments, it seems the next step is to ask.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

67. Actually, it wasn't clear to those of us

who don't know what the 'American Enterprise Institute' is. From the comments, I'm guessing it's some RW jobbie, but the OP could have actually been clearer.

[cui bono]

145. First time I looked at the OP I thought it was a serious post in agreement of the oped posted.

You might want to bold the end or put that at the top.

A lot of people skim OPs and won't read to the end.

[hlthe2b]

31. Why are RW memes being pushed here?

directly from American Enterprise Institute, in fact

[Zorra]

36. Rhetorical question?

[hlthe2b]

44. Giving...

benefit of the doubt... one would hope not undeserved, but.....

[SQUEE]

51. The end of his OP

Seems to make it clear how he feels about the piece and the Author...

[hlthe2b]

56. Apparently edited to add from original posting...

Glad to see, nonetheless, though it should have appeared at the top of the post, IMO, if the desire was to make clear disagreement with the RW meme being promulgated.

[SQUEE]

57. not to pick nits,

But there appears to be no edit.. if there is I am not seeing an edit history pop up.

[hlthe2b]

61. edit history no longer shows up if edited in the first 1/2 hour (or longer) of posting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12595167

[SQUEE]

65. I stand corrected.

sorry on that.

[hlthe2b]

66. no problems...

[PeaceNikki]

101. Yes it, does, it just doesn't display the red edited text

Star Member Skinner (59,121 posts)
1. We are experimenting with a 30-minute "grace period" during which time the red edit notification...

...does not appear.

However, the edits still appear in the edit history.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12595042


and

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=thread&info=1&address=10024702462

[hlthe2b]

110. Try it on your own posts... In reality if you edit within the 30 min window

and NOT AGAIN after 30 minutes, no edit history shows up.

[seabeyond]

114. giving it a go, here. now editing. meh... i am not seeing anywhere it is showing i can see

if i made an edit.

[countryjake]

116. Bottom of the page...

Edit History


This post has been edited 3 times. Hide all
0.
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 07:51 PM - Original version with no edits. (Hide)

Original version with no edits.

114. giving it a go, here. nt



1.
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 07:51 PM - Unexplained edit. (Hide)

Unexplained edit.

114. giving it a go, here. now editing. nt



2.
Fri Mar 21, 2014, 07:56 PM - Unexplained edit. (Hide)

Unexplained edit.

114. giving it a go, here. now editing. meh... i am not seeing anywhere it is showing i can see


if i made an edit.

[seabeyond]

119. Thank you. I thought I had seen it in the past. But I could not find it anywhere on my post.

Appreciate.

[hlthe2b]

117. OT....

Back from CO? I sure wish I could have joined you all..

[seabeyond]

118. Hl, it was so much fun I am gonna have to take another trip.

Thinking my two adult nieces. I didn't get to do all the stuff I wanted. I got to do a lot I hadn't planned, lol. I do love that city. We will hook up next time. And crispy. The women I was with were a blast and I am so glad I hooked up with them.

[AngryAmish]

154. there were no edits

Perhaps an admin could help.

[Squinch]

120. Trolls R Us.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. Yep. Men don't become rapists, they're born rapists.

Do I have that right? It has nothing to do with their upbringing. Nothing to do with a culture that glorifies "real men". Nothing to do with a culture that glorifies violence as a way of getting what you want.

Nope, the poor rapists are just born that way.

[jamzrockz]

128. Do you know

what happens to you if "real men" catches someone raping a woman? they will beat the shit out of him. This idea that there is a rape culture is ridiculous. We are to believe that the police state we live in who would look for any reason to lock people up will refuse to lock someone up if they think he is guilt. Mind you these men that are enforcing this rape culture also have daughters, sisters and moms who they would all hate to see raped.

Rape culture theory doesn't pan out if you actually know how the forces that affect mens thinking.

[seabeyond]

133. Soccer coach convicted raping an unconscious 16 yr old in California, 1 yr. Montana,

Judge gave 40 something yr old man 30 days for raping a 14 yr old. Another Montana judge gave a man no time cause the 13 yr old was sexually provocative beyond her age, even though she killed herself. Two judges in Alabama both gave no time to men that rape 14 and less yr olds. Steubenville they had video and covered it up. Kansas had pictures and ran the family out if town, burned down their house. Connecticut a girl killed herself with rape put on line. California the same. Canada, also.

You should educate yourself.

Ya. Just silly to think there is any such thing. The hysteria....

[jamzrockz]

140. I would like to see links to the original stories if you have it

But again, I cannot think of what someone will gain from letting a rapist go free especially when society is general sees rapists as lower than scums. Maybe there is something else to the story that we are not being told. I dunno but I will like to do some investigation myself to see how a man convicted of pedophilia can get 30 days in prison

[seabeyond]

142. You sound a tad sincere in a whole lot of unaware and uneducated in this subject. ALL these

Situations have been posted on du recently. Tomorrow, with my laptop instead of phone, I may gather info. I read your other post in another thread talking about prison... You are not correct for different reasons, though it sounds good. But, I am not getting into it tonight using finger to type lots.

[cyberswede]

48. What is your intention with this OP?

Did you post the POS article with the intention to ridicule it? If so, that's not clear.

[jollyreaper2112]

55. Don't forget, everyone has an agenda

The Puritans left Europe to seek religious freedom and yet persecuted anyone who varied from their strict interpretation of dogma. Being a victim does not mean that the victim cannot also become an abuser. Isn't that usually how it works with child abuse?

There is a rape culture in that these things are permitted to happen. If there wasn't a pedophile culture at Penn State, how else could Sandusky have been protected? If there's not a rape culture in sports programs around the country, how else would you explain the coverups? If a group of good ol' boys can lynch a black man in the south and get a sentence far different from what they'd have gotten in New England, would that not be a lynch culture?

If I were to talk to my friends about how much fun it is to fuck kids, that shit gets shut down on the spot. It ain't acceptable. If I were to talk about how much I hate jews and how Hitler had the right idea, there's immediate and significant backlash. Radioactive, not tolerated. Within my own group of friends, saying a woman deserves to be raped would get the same reaction. But that certainly isn't universal in this country. Holocaust jokes will get you in hot water but rape jokes are still fine.

That being said, the counter-reaction can be toxic. A proper and justifiable aversion to pedophilia has become a witch hunt that gets parents sent to jail for snapping pics of their babies in the tub. Trying to undo the sexually poisonous office environment we had in the Mad Men era has given us the situation where both sexes look at each other like armed camps.

[LumosMaxima]

63. Nope, it's still time to end RAPE CULTURE. nt

[treestar]

64. More complaining that the feminists are winning

and that soon women will be people rather than objects to exploit.

[TransitJohn]

68. Ah, the world must've settled down enough so that it's time to flood GD with rape shit eom

n/t

[Harmony Blue]

69. That is a good article

I am glad the discussion has commence to deconstruct the woo science that is rape culture.

Mothers, daughters, female teachers, female lawyers/attornyes, female professionals, etc are speaking out against this blatant attack on men by tarring them with "rape culture". Those tossing the volatile word around can't answer simple questions about it:

Where does it originate from and who teaches this "culture"?

They can't which is why we must be there every step of the way to call them out on their shenanigans IMVHO.

[BainsBane]

71. It is an extreme RW article from the right-wing Enterprise Insitute

Last edited Fri Mar 21, 2014, 04:44 PM - Edit history (1)

by a group opposed to women's rights.

The culture is exemplified through articles like the one you are here praising, by people who trivialize rape and justify a 3 percent conviction rate and 30 day. prison terms, who show more concern about the feelings of men who might be aggrieved by rape PSAs than the epidemic of rape, a violent crime, of which 1/4 to 1/3 of the American population is victim.

The only people speaking against it are right-wing misogynists. Naturally the Enterprise Institute supports their claim. What's fascinating is they find support among a few who claim to be liberals.

[theHandpuppet]

81. +100

Not much to add to what you've already said here.

[Harmony Blue]

108. I stand with RAINN

if you choose to be against RAINN so be it.

[BainsBane]

111. Since when?

Do you support something as basic as these stats?
http://www.rainn.org/statistics

Show we where you have expressed support for RAINN or concern for a female rape victim before. A link perhaps?

Tell me what exactly it is that you support from RAINN. Use their website, now the RW Enterprise researcher's rendition of what RAINN supports.

I'm waiting.

[Harmony Blue]

173. So you are against RAINN

And had you bothered to read the article (most in this thread did not) you would realize why and would not need to ask me that question:

RAINN (Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network) is America’s largest and most influential anti-sexual violence organization. It’s the leading voice for sexual assault victim advocacy. Indeed, rape culture activists routinely cite the authority of RAINN to make their case. But in RAINN’s recent recommendations to the White House Task Force to Protect Students from Sexual Assault, it repudiates the rhetoric of the anti “rape culture” movement:

In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campus. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important not to lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.

No one would deny that we should teach boys to respect women. But by and large, this is already happening. By the time men reach college, RAINN explains, “most students have been exposed to 18 years of prevention messages, in one form or another.” The vast majority of men absorbs these messages and views rape as the horrific crime that it is. So efforts to address rape need to focus on the very small portion of the population that “has proven itself immune to years of prevention messages.” They should not vilify the average guy.

By blaming so-called rape culture, we implicate all men in a social atrocity, trivialize the experiences of survivors, and deflect blame from the rapists truly responsible for sexual violence. RAINN explains that the trend of focusing on rape culture “has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions.”

Everyone's fixation with attacking the author (who by the way is female) I find disturbingly sad. Worse is not focusing on why the largest anti-sexual violence organization is saying Rape theory is totally bunk.

Most Americans lack the critical thinking skills to realize big picture and think so myopically. This is no different with Snowden's situation but continue on if your existence is satisfied and fullfilled with painting with broad brushstrokes. If I waas to do that about a women I would be called a misogynist. The irony is sad but also points to a decay in our society when the true problem is the 1% of the wealthy in our country.

[Vashta Nerada]

74. Agreed.

And it's also pathetic that some members here think every no man can control himself and he takes every opportunity he can to whip out his "organ" to play with himself.

[Squinch]

121. Which has been said by nobody here, ever.

[Vashta Nerada]

146. Right.

Seabeyond never said anything like that in the past.

[Squinch]

155. Link or sink, my friend. I've never seen her say anything of the sort.

I have seen her say VERY different things that were twisted by others who then insisted that she did say something like that. But I have never seen her say anything like that.

[seabeyond]

157. link it.... should be simple enough. nt

[Starry Messenger]

75. Saving this post in case:

Last edited Fri Mar 21, 2014, 06:20 PM - Edit history (1)

That is a good article

I am glad the discussion has commence to deconstruct the woo science that is rape culture.

Mothers, daughters, female teachers, female lawyers/attornyes, female professionals, etc are speaking out against this blatant attack on men by tarring them with "rape culture". Those tossing the volatile word around can't answer simple questions about it:

Where does it originate from and who teaches this "culture"?

They can't which is why we must be there every step of the way to call them out on their shenanigans IMVHO.

Harmony Blue: On the record as applauding and reccing a right-wing article from an author who is a member of a think-tank that also features, Charles Murray, racist author of "The Bell Curve".

[PassingFair]

80. I think you mean "The Bell CURVE"

Not "The Bell JAR".

[Starry Messenger]

95. Thank you! Goodness, I always do that and usually catch it.

It's just something my brain won't fix automatically, and it got stuck there like that, d'oh!

[BainsBane]

84. an article

That displays an intense hatred of women and determination to deprive us of our most basic human rights.

[seabeyond]

85. That would be consistent and the two that jumped on is just par. Nt

[malokvale77]

88. Well...

I rec'd the OP, also, but for a very different reason. I thought it was important to point out the kind of shit we are up against.

I'm personally sick to death of people denying the existence of "rape culture".

For the record - I've experienced it.

[cui bono]

138. Why do you care where "rape culture" originates from when you don't care that this article

is from a RW think tank?

[KamaAina]

72. You typed "hysteria" at the end of the header for some reason.

Otherwise, I heartily agree. It is past time to end rape culture.

[Jamastiene]

77. Right wing garbage.

Drivel.

[Squinch]

83. Yesterday, Time gave us some bullshit piece about "welfare queens." Today Time gives us

some bullshit piece about the concept of rape culture being hysteria.

Both of those bullshit pieces were posted on DU.

First: Has Rupert Murdoch, or some women-hating fringe group bought Time, Inc.?

Second: How is it that Time, Inc's right-wingnut pieces end up being posted on a site that is supposed to be liberal? Did some memo go out somewhere?

[malokvale77]

89. I believe the point is to inform...

of its existence, so we can counter the bullshit.

This board would be useless if we turned a blind eye to the opposition.

[Squinch]

94. True. Sometimes that is the point. But sometimes the point

is to push a conservative agenda into a liberal site.

[WatermelonRat]

90. The phrase "rape culture" is a misnomer.

People hear it and think it's claiming that our culture approves of rape, which leads them to scoff at the concept, but a more accurate phrase would be "rape-enabling culture". Most people genuinely view rape with revulsion, but may hold views and misconceptions that make it harder to get justice for rapists and lead to unnecessary hardship for the victims.

For example, many view rape as such a monstrous act that they assume anyone who doesn't look like a monster is incapable of it. This makes it harder to achieve justice against rapists who don't fit the "scary stranger in a dark alley" mold.

[seabeyond]

91. Very good point. Rape enabling culture. Very good way at clearing a visual of what is being said

With rape culture. I am impressed and like so much, unless another can point out a problem with this. I will probably use rape enabling in quotes after rape culture. Cause there is a rape culture in the jokes. Entertainment with rape. In porn. In the judicial sentencing and other areas. But the majority we are trying to get to hear it it really is rape enabling.

[Prophet 451]

92. I think that's a much better description

I have always had problems with the concept of "rape culture", both for the reasons you mentioned and because I think it over-simplifies some complicated problems. But "rape-enabling culture" more clearly says what the actual problems are.

[AverageJoe90]

103. I agree with this 100%, to be honest.

I'd like to add that over-simplifying seems to be an issue in the progressive community in general.....

[BainsBane]

112. If this culture gave a shit about rape

They would prosecute it and judges wouldn't give sentences as low as 30 days or overturn convictions on grounds that a child victim was seductive. More than 3 percent of rapes would be prosecuted, and you would not have people continually championing perpetrators over victims.

They don't think it's a monstrous act. They think that impulsive guys just get carried away and shouldn't be held responsible. They argue rape of a child isn't really legitimate rape if she wasn't beaten within an inch of her life at the time of her assault, and they insist she rather than the adult male is responsible for "seduction." I have seen no evidence that rape apologists see rape as anything other than something to be trivialized, dismissed, and swept under the rug.

Rape is an atrocious human rights abuse, and the fact that anyone would support an article like this shows how little value they place on the lives of rape victims.

Rape is indeed a monstrous act and those who prop up rape culture work to make sure rapists act with impunity. Denying the existence of rape culture is an essential step in that process. When they do so, they are saying rape really isn't a big deal. Those people, like the RW author, are more concerned that men's feelings may be hurt at seeing an anti-rape PSA than they are about the 1/4 to 1/3 of the population who is raped.

[cui bono]

97. Unrec.

[nomorenomore08]

98. Why does it have to be either/or? Can't it be both cultural factors *and* individuals

being predatory creeps? Not to mention that "hysteria" is kind of an unfortunate word choice in this context.

[Iris]

99. Really? "Meanwhile, a growing number of young men find themselves charged with rape, named publicly

and brought before campus judicial panels informed by rape culture theory."

It's rape culture that makes it possible for them to simply go before a campus judicial panel rather than being arrested. And most judicial panels are done without releasing names. This has been a problem since long before the words "rape culture" became ubiquitous.

[Mariana]

104. Shhh.

Pointing that out is "rape culture hysteria".

[davidn3600]

100. Calling it "rape culture" avoids the root causes

By claiming that rape is a form of gender bias (which is what rape culture does at its heart of the theory), it prevents attacking the root cause of the problem. Rape is a crime of violence. When you look at FBI crime statistics for any given region, prevalence of rape mirrors the prevalence of other violent crimes.

Rape culture assumes that rape is a normal male behavior, and men are encouraged by society to rape women. This is fundamentally flawed. The vast majority of men will never rape or sexually assault a woman in his life. And the vast majority of men are disgusted at the thought of rape. So any feminist that claims that all men are potential rapists are full of shit.

Feminists like to link the ideas of rape and sex. But any psychologist worth his or her salt will tell you that rape is always about violence. The sex during a rape is used as a weapon against that victim. And you can look at other forms of rape for proof of this. Rape against children. Rape in prisons. etc.. it's about power, control, and violence.

I think I understand why feminists don't like to view rape this way. Because this is more of a broad and humanist approach to it. Feminists tend to avoid humanist approaches because they fear it will take away focus from women. This is unfortunate because rape is a problem in America because violence is a problem in America. To try to stop rape by attacking it from a sexual perspective or a gender bias perspective is going to fail miserably.

[AverageJoe90]

102. I think I see where you're coming from.

Though, to be honest, I'm a feminist(guy) and I don't think most feminists(save for a few fringe radicals) are actually that hesitant to approach it from a humanist perspective; In fact, I believe that many of my fellows of both genders and all orientations would agree that humanist & feminist views are not only compatible, but actually ultimate tie together in many ways.

[noiretextatique]

109. Feminists like to link the ideas of rape and sex

you are completely full of and clearly have no idea what you are talking about, just like the rw asshole who wrote this article. the term rape culture does not imply that rape is normal male behavior. it does mean that culture may play a role in creating rapists. that's a big, fat DUH.

[mercuryblues]

115. you sure

seem to know what feminists really think. Of course you would be wrong, wrong and more wrong.

what a waste of bandwidth that post was.

[seabeyond]

122. Ya. I wasn't gonna waste the time but, wrong wrong wrong pretty well says it.

I have yet to hear a feminist claim what this man says. Seems odd he thinks he knows wtf he is talking about.

[Squinch]

123. Wow. You know absolutely nothing about this, don't you?

[davidn3600]

125. Actually I do...

I've got some education in psychology. I'm not a therapist or a doctor by any means, but I do know some psychology.

A number of my professors in college were also self-described "feminists." Of course they were the pro-sex variety that think even prostitution should be legalized. They didnt talk about "rape culture" very much at all. But I've read from both sides over the years. And it's just my opinion the sex-negative types are a bit off the radical end of the spectrum. But that's just my opinion.

[Squinch]

126. .

[davidn3600]

127. Whatever...

You got your opinions, I got mine. Just leave it at that.

[seabeyond]

129. Your posts continually attack feminists. Consistently. Don't bother wrapping it up in academics.

It is clear to all of us, man, that it is merely an opinion of yours towards feminists. That would be our point. You do not know wtf you are talking about.

[davidn3600]

132. I criticize a certain type of feminism that is quite prevalent here

Do I believe "rape culture" exists? No. I do not. And not all feminists do believe it exists. And as evidence of this thread, many here question its existence as well.

My beliefs are more towards humanism anyway. I don't limit myself to just feminism.

[seabeyond]

134. Nothing is a surprise in your post. Feminist bad. No rape culture. We get it

[davidn3600]

135. Like I said... everyone has a different opinion...

I am a man. Never, ever has anyone told me I should rape a woman. Never have I ever been encouraged to rape a woman. Never has anyone ever told me I can get away with it. There is no culture telling men to rape women. There is no invisible force by the patriarchy telling men to rape women. Never have I ever ran across a guy in real life that jokes about raping women.

There is no vast cultural conspiracy to use rape to keep women oppressed. That's garbage.

We are not going to agree on this, that's very obvious. Im just making my point. We have a violent crime problem in this country. Solve that and you'll solve your rape problem at the same time.

[seabeyond]

136. You are a man.... That can not see. True enough. Nt

[cui bono]

137. Do you have a citation for "Feminists like to link the ideas of rape and sex"?

And where they say they don't think rape is violence?

How does saying we have a rape culture negate the fact that rape is an assault?

And do you know what you are implying when you make that claim? That feminists can't possibly like sex since they equate it with rape. Is that what you believe?

[davidn3600]

147. Like I said.....

Rape is a form of violent crime. The problem is violent crime. Sex isn't the problem. Porn isn't the problem. Magazine covers showing girls in bikinis is not the problem. Many feminists in this forum think it is the problem. A few people here have even said in the past that pornography should be banned or restricted by the government because it provokes men to want to rape women. So there you go...they are linking sex with rape.

America does not have a culture of rape any more than it has a culture of murder or a culture of armed robbery. And looking at pornography doesnt make a man want to rape a woman. Anyone that thinks so is trying to link rape to sex. If someone is looking at porn and fantasizing about raping the persons in the porn, something is wrong with their brain and needs help. The porn is not making them that way. They have a serious problem that would exist whether the porn is there or not.

Several radical feminists have said that sex and rape and linked. That's not a new phenomenon here. Have you ever heard of Andrea Dworkin?

Im not going to sit here and argue about it all night. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

[cui bono]

149. I agree rape is violence. That doesn't negate that there is a rape culture.

Last edited Sat Mar 22, 2014, 05:52 AM - Edit history (2)

It also doesn't mean that pornography is simply sex. Nor that magazine covers showing girls in bikinis are not a problem.

You seem to be conflating a lot of things. You're throwing a lot of things into the mix that all contribute to a sexist society and various women's issues but are not necessarily a direct reason for rape existing.

Do you really think pornography is simply sex? Come on, it's generally pretty violent for sex, gang banging, facials, choking, porn is not just "sex". At it's best it isn't regular sex, there's no affection, etc... Even if there weren't violent porn out there, which there is, there's a lot more to pornography than what shows up on the screen. Do you think all women get into porn willingly or because it's what they dreamed of doing when they grew up? Do you think that women who get into porn have high self esteem and many good alternatives in their lives? What do you think it's like on the set of a porn? There was a post recently by a DUer whose friend was in the business and she described what it was like to have to go through being in a porn movie and it was horrific.

When I was in college I was at a friend's dorm apt., it was a male apt. so 5 guys lived there. One of them came home and was really angry, he said he was angry about something then said "I just need to fuck something/someone ( don't remember which)". Where does he get the idea that that's a way to get his anger out? Very likely comes from porn. Where else do you see anger expressed with a sexual act?

Have you seen this talk? It's fantastic. If you haven't watched it it may shed some light on porn for you. It's a man talking about why he doesn't watch porn any more. Please do watch it. If you've already seen it please watch it again.

But anyway, back to rape culture... American absolutely does have a culture of rape. How many murder cases do you suppose have evidence just rotting away untouched on the shelves? How many armed robbery cases do you think the victim is too afraid to report because they will get blamed? What other crime blames the victim like rape or shames them like rape? Why is it so common for perps to get such lenient sentences in rape cases, even when it's pedophilia?

Why do so many young men think it's okay to violate a woman sexually when she is passed out? Why is there a drug called the "date rape" drug? The sexism that permeates society adds to men thinking they have a right to sex with women. They think of it as a conquest. All the slut shaming, the victim blaming, the objectification... it all adds up.

It's the objectification of women, the lack of respect for women that allows men to treat them as an object to be violated, that allows rape to be blamed on the victim and rape kits to be systematically ignored, that all adds up to a rape culture. Yes, it does exist. Just as white privilege exists. Just as so many things exist that are perhaps easier to grasp, understand and see if you are part of the group that is affected by it. Denying it is like denying that racism exists.

I just read this post that says a better term would be "rape enabling culture". Perhaps that makes more sense to you? I like it better myself.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4705334

[seabeyond]

158. cui. excellent post. i go so tired of continually breaking down what is put out. but...

you did a god job making it clear that not all issue are specifically about rape ect....

love the video. i was going to go looking for it.

and though enabler works i think for clarity and understanding with people that are appalled by rape, i think rape culture is still needed like in judges not giving time to the convicted rapist or police not investigating or da not prosecuting, adm of schools, legislation, ect...

excellent post.

[rrneck]

160. How many murder cases do you suppose have evidence just rotting away untouched on the shelves?

Quite a few actually...

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/tables/table_25

Percent of Offenses Cleared by Arrest or Exceptional Means

Violent crime 47.7%
Murder and non negligent manslaughter 64.8%
Forcible rape 41.2%
Robbery 28.7%
Aggravated Assault 56.9%
Property Crime 18.6%
Burglary 12.7%
Larceny/Theft 21.5%
Motor Vehicle Theft 11.9%
Arson 18.8%

[cui bono]

162. "Percent of Offenses Cleared by Arrest or Exceptional Means"

Sorry, I'm not understanding what point this is making... but then I went to bed late and didn't sleep enough.

I'm not seeing the connection of offenses cleared and untouched evidence.

[rrneck]

164. I expect that evidence was collected

but in insufficient quantity to make an arrest. Thus rape kits and collections of fingerprints are equally underutilized.

Nevertheless, a great many murders go unsolved.

[cui bono]

165. I still don't see the connection.

The rape kits are there sitting on shelves and being ignored. They are direct evidence that isn't even being looked at. They are not merely underutilized, they are being utilized and then the results are not being looked at. That's my understanding of the situation.

[rrneck]

166. As is a lot of evidence of other crimes.

Like a fingerprint, the existence of a rape kit may or may not confirm guilt. And with a fingerprint there is a dead body as evidence of a crime.

Rapes are difficult to prosecute because they frequently depend on the claims of the victim without any supporting physical evidence. Without evidence beyond the claim of rape, which depends on a possibly unprovable denial of consent, I expect prosecutors would be reluctant to expend limited resources on such a difficult case to win.

[cui bono]

167. That's what the rape kit is, evidence.

Possibly DNA evidence. That's pretty damning evidence. So saying that cases are hard to prove "Without evidence beyond the claim of rape" is not accurate if there is evidence that's sitting on a shelf, ignored.

As to the "consent" issue, I don't know the stats but not all rapes involve the consent issue.

[Squinch]

172. That's a lot of words that boil down to, "No, I have no citation for feminists linking rape and sex"

[mythology]

105. Yet another reason

to add to the list of why one should take the side that AEI is against.

[Aerows]

107. What in THE hell? n/t

[BainsBane]

113. This is rape culture

[rrneck]

124. "To fix the problem you have to name the problem..."

She never did name the problem.

[cui bono]

161. What would you name it?

[rrneck]

163. I haven't decided yet.

Although I expect it's little more than an interpretation of attitude.

[BainsBane]

169. She did: Rape culture

[rrneck]

170. Ply us not with youth tautology.

Rape culture is a problem because rape culture.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

143. The writer of this article, Caroline Kitchens, is a NEO-CON

Caroline Kitchens
Research Assistant at American Enterprise Institute
Sturgeon Bay, WisconsinPublic Policy
http://www.linkedin.com/pub/caroline-kitchens/22/866/29a


American Enterprise Institute
The American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research (AEI) is one of the oldest and most influential of the pro-business right-wing think tanks. It promotes the advancement of free enterprise capitalism, and has been extremely successful in placing its people in influential governmental positions, particularly in the Bush Administration. AEI has been described as one of the country's main bastions of neoconservatism.

- See more at: http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/american-enterprise-institute#sthash.luY4tNAO.dpuf

[Harmony Blue]

174. Shaming tactics don't work

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/05/18/336051/-Prominent-NEOCON-endorses-Hillary-Clinton

Just because one holds a political position does not mean it extends to all issues.

Clinton is considered a Neo Con or more accurately a center left Democrats of the DLC. And yet she is 100% for women's rights.

Lack of critical thinking skills is so evident it is quite sad.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

175. The need right now is to rid ourselves of Republicans, and weakening them.

You're not understanding. Regardless of happiness or not with the Democratic candidate, as long as what you're doing is improving the chances of getting Repukes in office, you are helping Republicans, which keeps us in the same damned spot we have been for the past 3+ decades.

After weakening them, we can get our base to move left again. But as long as your deeds improve Republicans' chances of re-election, get ready for more decades of Republican destruction and no way to stop it.

Do you have a better solution? If it is, let's hear it in detail. How do you presume helping Republicans get elected will help fix the U.S.?