Is US espionage against China unconstitutional?

[Cali_Democrat]

Last edited Sun Mar 23, 2014, 03:34 AM - Edit history (1)

When Snowden first came to the fore, he revealed information about metadata collection by the NSA. Well actually he just revealed the warrant which turned over metadata from Verizon to the NSA. We've known that the metadata collection program had been going on since 2006:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-05-10-nsa_x.htm

Even though a Federal judge signs off on these warrants, I think it's overkill. There's simply no need to have all that data IMO.

But pretty much all of Snowden's revelations since then have been disclosing US espionage against foreign countries from Brazil to Germany to China.

Today it has been revealed that the US spied on the Chinese government as well as a Chinese company:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014762667

Is US espionage against foreign countries constitutional? If it is, why is Snowden revealing this information? BTW, Michelle Obama happens to be in China right now on a goodwill mission....what a coincidence.

Snowden consistently says his purpose is to reveal unconstitutional activities by the US govt. He recently made a video appearance at SXSW 2014 and he even appeared in front of the Constitution:



It's well-known that China spies on the US and steals technology. Should Snowden be revealing US espionage activities against China? I'm assuming he thinks it's unconstitutional?

Is US espionage against foreign countries constitutional? And if it is, why would Snowden reveal this information?

[Cali_Democrat]

1. Anybody?

[Bonobo]

2. My first reaction is that the question is a massive red herring.

Constitutionality generally relates to the balance of rights of a citizen of the U, a US state and the federal government.

So the question seems inappropriately framed to me anyway.

[cthulu2016]

7. The OP is questioning what whistle blower value there is to revealing our secrets about

US actions that are not violations of US law. (Or at least that's my best guess about the motive/point of the post)

And it is a fair question—though the OP did not pose it well.

[Cali_Democrat]

9. I apologize for any confusion

Yes that is essentially my question. At first it seemed like he wanted to reveal unconstitutional activities.

Now most of his revelations have had to do with US espionage against foreign countries.

It seems rather odd that he wants to get all this information out there. What is his goal? Is he against all espionage even though it has been happening for centuries? These are fair questions.

Also, this does bolster the argument that he is doing the bidding of countries like China and Russia. Some folks have even said he was a Russian spy.

I don't know that, but his recent actions raise even more questions.

[treestar]

13. You are dodging the question

Is it unconstitutional to spy on foreign countries? Obviously, it is not. You don't want to deal with the fact that Ed revealed perfectly allowable things.

[BainsBane]

3. Which part of the constitution do you think it violates?

I can't think of any.

[Gravitycollapse]

4. It probably is constitutional. Or, to put it a better way, it isn't unconstitutional yet.

How that relates to what is ethical and unethical is another issue. Many things over the centuries have been completely constitutional yet totally unethical.

Now, do I believe this kind of espionage is ethical? Not particularly. Some of it probably is necessary for actual national defense. But most of it is likely nothing more than economic espionage.

Should he be revealing such things? Yes, regardless of the legality of the programs.

[okaawhatever]

5. Of course not. It also isn't against International Law. If it were, we have hundreds of proven cases

of China spying on us. The estimate was that it cost US companies $65 Billion per year in lost patent/copyright revenue. Believe me, if there is a court of international cyber espionage, we'll be pretty far down on the list.

[Liberal Veteran]

6. I really don't know the inner workings of Snowden's mind.

While he has brought some issues to light that deserve the attention of the public at large, the more he speaks and the timing he chooses to speak make me suspect I would not want to live in his ideal world.

[Katashi_itto]

8. CIA Vision, Mission & Values

"The CIA succeeded the Office of Strategic Services (OSS), formed during World War II to coordinate secret espionage activities against the Axis Powers for the branches of the United States Armed Forces. The National Security Act of 1947 established the CIA, affording it "no police or law enforcement functions, either at home or abroad"

CIA Vision, Mission & Values

Vision

One Agency.

One Community.

An Agency unmatched in its core capabilities, functioning as one team, fully integrated into the Intelligence Community.



Mission

We are the nation’s first line of defense. We accomplish what others cannot accomplish and go where others cannot go. We carry out our mission by:

Collecting information that reveals the plans, intentions and capabilities of our adversaries and provides the basis for decision and action.
Producing timely analysis that provides insight, warning and opportunity to the President and decisionmakers charged with protecting and advancing America’s interests.
Conducting covert action at the direction of the President to preempt threats or achieve US policy objectives.


Core Values

Service. We put Country first and Agency before self. Quiet patriotism is our hallmark. We are dedicated to the mission, and we pride ourselves on our extraordinary responsiveness to the needs of our customers.
Integrity. We uphold the highest standards of conduct. We seek and speak the truth—to our colleagues and to our customers. We honor those Agency officers who have come before us and we honor the colleagues with whom we work today.
Excellence. We hold ourselves—and each other—to the highest standards. We embrace personal accountability. We reflect on our performance and learn from that reflection.

https://www.cia.gov/mobile/about-cia/cia-vision-mission-values.html

[Democracyinkind]

10. I have been an avid defender of Snowden. This, IMHO, is one step too far.

We are - or maybe it is better to say that our corporations and our national security apparatus - is engaged in an active cyber-war with China and Russia. Why abet them? Everyone knew we target them as they target us. Why tell them specifics? If he's not playing for a team, what use is this leak?

Spying on our allies is wrong - especially when they're willing to share everything anyway. Spying on China and Russia... That's just life.

[Fumesucker]

14. "Our corporations"?

That's an odd way of phrasing it, those corporations "belong" to the stockholders, not the general public.

China has Most Favored Nation status in trade and has for quite a number of years now, it's hard to argue that they are our economic "enemy".

[Democracyinkind]

15. You're reading too much into that phrasing. See my sigline. nt

[Fumesucker]

17. What did you mean by "our corporations" then? n/t

[Democracyinkind]

20. Corporations operating under our jurisdiction. nt

[Benton D Struckcheon]

11. He's in Russia, he's working for them,

obviously. Spying is always going on. Nothing against it in the Constitution.

[gulliver]

12. No, but espionage against the United States is.

Snowden should have scrolled his background down to show Article III, Section 3. It would have been more appropriate.

[randome]

16. What gets me is that the Snowden backers don't think their position through to logical ends.

Will the people of the United States rise up to protest international spying? Pretty damned unlikely. So if nothing will occur as the result of these 'revelations', what is to be gained by post after post saying how terrible it is that the U.S. monitors foreign communications?

The vast majority of us actually agree that in a perfect world, there would be no international spying. None. Peace and harmony for all.

This is not that perfect world.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]If you don't give yourself the same benefit of a doubt you'd give anyone else, you're cheating someone.[/center][/font][hr]

[Fumesucker]

18. Government spying for national security is one thing

Government economic spying on the behalf and for the profit of private corporations is quite another.

[randome]

19. Agree there is a difference. It's unethical.

But there is still no end-game in sight for trying to protest this. People aren't completely apathetic, they simply don't care about stuff like this. So there is nothing to be gained by shouting loudly at the wind. The wind certainly doesn't care.

With all the problems we have today, why not shout loudly about something wherein we make a difference?

Funny that the appropriate sigline came up for this post. If you're going to commit to something, commit to something wherein you make a difference. Hmm, sounds like a new sigline may be taking shape. I'll have to mull that one over.
[hr][font color="blue"][center]“If you're not committed to anything, you're just taking up space.”
Gregory Peck, Mirage (1965)[/center][/font][hr]