Why are police lives valued more than ours? Why do they make the determination that

[Ed Suspicious]

killing someone is justified based on a threatened feeling, but a citizen has no right to make the same determination about a police officer? If a person brought deadly force against an officer who threatened deadly force, there would be a nation wide manhunt and the LAPD shooting up vehicles and burning down buildings to bring him down. I don't want anybody to be the victim of violence, but I legitimately wonder, if a cop's mission is to serve and protect, is that to be read serve and protect yourself?

[Logical]

1. Cops are always right.....

And are at the point now where they do not take ANY risks. Shoot immediately.

People are still i the mode where cops are heros and always your friend. It is not true.

[FreakinDJ]

2. Because they can - and they work for the 1% not US

The Supreme Court decision gave them "Supernatural Powers"

[JoePhilly]

5. Except that cop that came to my door because a guy had just ...

... robbed some one down the street.

Maybe that cop thought we were in the 1%.

[FreakinDJ]

8. Got love a good apologist - that cop could have shot you dead

That cop would have shot you dead if he thought he smelled pot in your house

Your whistling in the dark my friend

[pintobean]

42. "That cop would have shot you dead if he thought he smelled pot in your house"

[Orrex]

16. You've got it all wrong. Every cop is a murderous psychopath.

If he's not a bad cop right now, he was a murderous psychopath very recently or will be a murderous psychopath in the very near future. This is 100% true at all times for all 770,000+ cops in the country.

You're lucky that you escaped with your life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1!1!

[JoePhilly]

3. They are trained, you are not.

Their job has actual training for that exact situation because they are much more likely to find themselves in that situation than you are. In fact, many of them have had to make this kind of decision over and over in their careers.

Their job puts them in situations in which they have to make the right call on this exact point. And when they make the correct call, no one around here blinks. Those instances go unmentioned.

So look, if you think a cop is threatening you ... go for it.

[Ed Suspicious]

7. No chance in hell. That's a death sentence even well before it gets to court.

[FreakinDJ]

9. Trained to LIE under oath

Your ignoring way to much to be anything less then a cop yourself or a paid cop apologist

either way FUCK Pigs

[el_bryanto]

13. What a sensible response

So anybody who disagrees with you on this matter is a cop or a paid cop apologist? I disagree with you, but haven't been paid.

Bryant

[Orrex]

22. Then you're a fool.

As payment for my cop apologism, a plainclothes officer in an unmarked vehicle leaves a satchel of unmarked, non-sequential bills on my doorstep on the 2nd Tuesday of each month.

You're missing out on a gold mine. A gold mine!

[el_bryanto]

23. Damn it - i thought was my neighbors being slobs. I've been tossing it out! nt

[Orrex]

24. LOL

[Iggo]

14. That's what makes their lives more valuable than ours? Or our lives less valuable than theirs?

The fact that they are trained and our sorry asses ain't?

[Savannahmann]

21. No they aren't.

How are they trained again? Oh yes, trained for the situation. So what part of their training called upon them to shatter the arm of a 16 year old with a history of mental disorder which they were advised of?

Perhaps it's only the threat of deadly force in which they have "superior" training? Like this one from earlier this year when a South Carolina cop shot an old man for getting his cane.

Sure, the cop felt bad, and actually cried afterwards. Isn't that special?

A best of video of sorts, for the fans of the cops like yourself.

Lots of great training going on right?

Now for my favorite of all time.

I could go on, and on, and on. There are no good cops. None. The ones who do not actively brutalize, abuse, lie, or plant evidence, write reports to back up those who do in the perpetual war of "us versus them". As long as they are the bad guys who lie, enable such lies, protect those who lie, and abuse, and brutalize, and murder, it will remain us versus them.

[Wounded Bear]

4. This is getting weirded out by the SYG law bullshit...

but it is "presumed" that a criminal that would shoot a cop is more brazen and dangerous than one who would shoot an unarmed citizen.

But you're right, folks who "presume" that everybody is armed and dangerous would probably not really distinguish, which is why, IIRC, most law enforcement is not that supportive of open carry or automatic concealed carry approval, or the gun culture in general. They are in the front lines, after all.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

11. I used to argue here ...

...... with a pro-gun (now banned as a troll, surprise huh?) cop who used to swear up and down the rank and file cops were very supportive of gun rights and concealed carry. His claim it was only the politics playing chiefs that were against because they had to be.

I get the impression the pigs take the good with the bad. The bad is they run a very small risk of being shot. The good is they get to conduct themselves as total assholes under the guise of "officer safety". Now cops can claim the guy filming them from across the street might have a gun. iPhone? Gun. Cell phone? Gun. Camera? Gun. Kid smarting off a block away? Gun.

[Sunlei]

20. my friends son was killed by a cop. He called 911, still on phone with 911 dispatcher and the

police officer that responded, walked to the open car door. Shoots dead an ill 20 year old, because of the cell phone in his hand.

You're so correct in your post. "officer safety"= shoot first. No common sense or patience, at all, in many of todays police.

[Vattel]

6. There is a double standard for sure. Anyone who denies that is blind.

[Ed Suspicious]

10. I thought it was considered heroic to give your own life in the line of duty, not that I would want

that, but it seems they feel it more prudent to often take a life in the line of duty. They seem to have the whole service to the public thing backwards.

I think much of this stems from the military tactics and militarized clothing and weaponry used by PDs now. It chills me to the bone seeing police in battle fatigues, carrying assault rifles, and throwing flash-bang grenades. I think the clothes make the man and our police forces dress the part of soldiers on the battlefield.

[YarnAddict]

28. Last fall a state trooper in our area

made a routine traffic stop, and was shot point-blank in the head. He had never even drawn his weapon. He was a real, real good guy. The scumbag who killed him, however, was a 20-year old loser who had gotten breaks for his criminal behavior for probably half his life.

I wish the cop had had his gun in hand and fired without waiting for provocation. The world would have one more good guy in it, and one less bad guy. As it is, the scumbag is going to be breathing air he isn't entitled to for a good 60, 70, maybe even 80 years.

[Ino]

36. So you advocate that police automatically shoot everyone they stop for traffic violations?

I'm sure you'd think differently if you or yours were shot without provocation, or while reaching for your purse or cane.

Sorry about the really real good guy who got shot. But the guy who shot him is going to prison.

If it had been the other way around... the cop shoots a good guy, or viciously kicks a handcuffed man in the head... the cop would not be charged.

[YarnAddict]

40. No, not at all, and that isn't what I said

I said that I wish in this one particular instance the cop had shot first, asked questions later. But that could never have happened because it would have been out of character for this good guy cop. Yes, the scumbag will be in prison, probably (hopefully) for the rest of his life, but that is small consolation.

If you think no cops ever get charged for killing or beating a suspect, I would suggest that you are wrong. Check out Nevers and Budzyn in the Malice Green case. I am sure there are many others as well.

[Ino]

48. How would he know this was the ONE time he should have shot someone?

It's easy to say in hindsight that THIS time he should have shot first and asked questions later. It's easy to wish that's what would have happened.

But no one would know that THIS was the time. They would have to shoot EVERY time in case this was the time.

There have probably been a few cops charged since the 22-year-old example that came to your mind. But for every one cop who does get prosecuted, there are hundreds of others who are never charged, who were found to have "acted appropriately" by an internal investigation, who lied about the circumstances, who covered up for their cop buddies, etc.

[MO_Moderate]

12. They're not

As with everything else, especially politics, some people just love to live in a constant state of fear so they take the extremes and apply them to the whole in order to justify those fears.

[Ed Suspicious]

15. Watching this incident unfold in such a coordinated, systematic way makes me

Think that this is standard operating procedure. Every move was orchestrated for maximum efficiency, communication was not a problem, none of them so much as flinched when the killed the man. They're only concern seemed to be their own safety in a conflict of their own making. It seemed to unfold in a cold and calculated manner. I'm not saying they went in with the intention to kill, but when he seemingly refused to acquiesce to the APD requests, his death was at most the welcomed result of insubordination, at least an unfortunate necessity in enforcing police authority in this situation.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017182773

[Sunlei]

17. agree, a lot of police are to fast to kill and don't seem to even like to 'serve or protect people.

no patience & treat all their 'customers' badly or worse, kill them sometimes.

Maybe it's the mental health quality of the police hired.

[pipi_k]

19. Or maybe

it's the shitty attitudes of people who hate all cops, and cops who are risking their own safety on the streets to protect even the cop haters are sick and tired of it.

They enter the force as rookies with all good intentions, determined to make the world a better place.

After a few years they get cynical.


Mental health quality?

OK, maybe for some.

But they're not all bad.


Nobody ever mentions the tons of cops who DON'T do bad shit.

[Ed Suspicious]

26. Not doing bad shit is the job for which we hired them. I agree that most cops

are good guys. The issue at hand is the bad, and maybe not even bad guys, but bad standard operating procedure . . . Bad pd policy. The issue is a coordinated team of fatigue wearing officers armed with beanbag guns, rifles, a dog, flash bang grenades vs a homeless guy camping while holding a knife in an apparently non-aggressive manner with lots of time, distance of their choosing from the "perp" when the coordinated response is to disorient the man with a flash bang grenade and as he turns away, shoot him with both lethal and nonlethal force. When he falls, command him to drop the knife, when compliance from the dead man is not given, give him three beanbags to the backside, then turn the dog on him. Finally step hard on the hand holding the knife. This seemed not to be only bad cops, but more concerning is it seems to be bad procedure. A bad standard of policing that elevates the lives of officers well over the lives of ordinary citizens.

[Sunlei]

35. quite a few bad apples, way to many bad get in and its very hard to get rid of them.

Police departments should never accept anyone with violent convictions of any type or any Vet with PTSD/ mental health issues from their service. (until cleared by medical professionals)

[blueamy66]

37. Once they get cynical, they get dangerous.

They should rethink their career path. Just like those doctors and nurses in the ER that are jaded after years of work.

If you choose a profession that involves the taking/saving of a human being's life, you had better damn well respect that human life. If not, get he hell out.

[pipi_k]

18. Cop bashing as an art form...

Cops are always "pigs" and "scum" and whatever other nasty names people want to call them until they need them. Then they're the good guys. Or, at the very least, not "pigs" for about the five minutes it takes them to save someone's ass.

So anyway, in defense of the millions of good cops out there, who seem like they're being included in the grouping of "pigs", here's a little story...

Mr Pipi was a cop for 18 years before having to retire due to an on-the-job injury not related to what I'm going to say below.

One day he got a call to go to a local pizza place where two workers were involved in a fight. In the meantime, they take the fight outside and they're going at each other with pizza knives in the middle of a busy road.

Mr Pipi gets there, and the two guys are Greek and speak very little English, and therefore don't hear or understand him when he yells at them to stop.

Not wanting to shoot and risk injuring/killing someone, he jumps into the middle of the fray and gets one guy's pizza knife away from him. He kept it as a souvenir of that day, and I've taken a photo of it, in comparison to a regular kitchen spoon:





He would have done the same thing for anyone here...even those who would call him a "pig".


This doesn't mean cops should be allowed to get away with whatever they want, but it also shows that there are tons of cops in this country who do their jobs with honor and dignity and don't deserve to be lumped into one big group called "Pigs".

[Sunlei]

43. All these 'great good police' are so silent about the few bad police...why?

Todays police policy would allow the officer you mentioned to kill the knife holders if he wanted to.

But like you said "Not wanting to shoot and risk injuring/killing someone", he jumps in and 'risks' his own life to take a knife that he then steals?

Why did Mr. Pipi, a police officer, get to keep a 'crime weapon' as a personal trophy?

I understand what you mean about more police are probably good, reasonable, humans. Not sure if a story about stealing a trophy knife is 100% pure good cop.

Or did Mr. Pipi not even charge the street knife fighters with any crime?

[closeupready]

25. Agreed. Same argument applies to gun possession.

Somehow, people think it's okay to give the police lethal weapons, but citizens should be stripped of their guns. Faulty logic.

Long-winded way of saying, I agree that the lives of police officers should not be elevated above the citizens they are protecting. They are already very well compensated, and enjoy immunity from all kinds of things ordinary citizens go to prison for.

[Ed Suspicious]

27. The problem with your arguement and the guns as defense against cops mentality is

that it serves to further justify their paranoia and brutal responses. The cops will always win eventually in that scenario. If you successfully defend yourself against lethal force from a cop, you are now a cop killer and they, the whole nation of law enforcement agencies will hunt you to the end of the earth and you likely will never see your day in court which would be the only place you could hope to justify your use of force as self defense.

[closeupready]

30. Then you are undercutting your own argument.

Either you believe the lives of police officers are more worthy than citizens, or you don't.

I realize that police officers stick together, and will persecute those who harm their union membership brothers and sisters, but that's neither here nor there for purposes of whether the LAW should regard them as better than citizens.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

29. I'd like to see police be mostly disarmed too.

The only time armed police should be on the streets is when they're specifically responding to armed perps.

No unarmed person should ever be shot by police.

[MicaelS]

39. You're living in a fantasy world..

If you think that will ever happen in this country.

[YarnAddict]

31. Last fall a state trooper in our area

made a routine traffic stop, and was shot point-blank in the head. He had never even drawn his weapon. He was a real, real good guy. The scumbag who killed him, however, was a 20-year old loser who had gotten breaks for his criminal behavior for probably half his life.

I wish the cop had had his gun in hand and fired without waiting for provocation. The world would have one more good guy in it, and one less bad guy. As it is, the scumbag is going to be breathing air he isn't entitled to for a good 60, 70, maybe even 80 years.

[closeupready]

32. Was the cop ALWAYS a "real good guy"? How old was he?

Our justice system doesn't dispense justice at the whims of closeupready, YarnAddict, or any other individual.

[YarnAddict]

34. Yes, he was always a good guy

He was 43 years old, was his parents' only child, he had a fiancee, and he volunteered at our local animal shelter.

Here is a link to coverage of the trial:
http://fox17online.com/news/stories/msp-trooper-paul-butterfield-killed-in-the-line-of-duty/#axzz2wzVWAsFI

Here is a link with details of the scumbag's criminal history, and of how he was given a slap on the wrist for every crime:
http://ludingtoncitizen.ning.com/forum/topics/something-wickens-this-way-comes-did-our-justice-system-act-as-ac

At the time of the murder he should have been sitting in a jail cell. He had been sentenced to a year and three months on a domestic violence charge. He served two days.

[blueamy66]

38. I read the links.

What are you doing to change the laws and the sentencing guidelines and our entire court system?

[YarnAddict]

41. Do you think the entire court system needs to be changed?

Sounds to me like it is just one lousy judge.

BTW, thanks for reading my links. It seems like often people don't want to look closely enough at a different point of view to bother with the other person's evidence.

[blueamy66]

44. I believe there a quite a few lousy judges out there.

And probation/parole officers, cops, defense attorneys, prosecutors and detention officers.

Our system will never be fair to everyone. There will always be those that have money and those that don't. There will always be nepotism.

I have a love/hate relationship with cops. I have had 2 recent good experiences with rural cops. I dated a detention officer a few months back. He was an honest, fair guy. But they have so much power....it's just scary when you think of how they can abuse it.

[Sunlei]

46. police should change traffic stop policy,stay in their car, have person get out of their car.

Instead of taking the tiny,tiny risk & assume every time they approach a car, that the person they stopped is armed, desperate and will kill them.

A desperate person will probably drive off when asked to exit their car or not stop at all.

Of course a ,much safer policy for everyone' would slowdown the volume ticket stop industry.

[YarnAddict]

47. Just one little thing

When the "desperate person" drives off, what should the cop do then? Pursue? A high speed chase is dangerous for everyone on the road. Wait for back-up? Good chance the "desperate person" would never be found, and go on to do who-knows-what. Just let him/her go? Also not a good idea.

Other than that, I can see it being a safer policy.

[Sunlei]

49. pursue like they do today or if they 'get away' Cop knows the car info, they will find them.

Better chance for the police to pursue with success anyway, if the officer is already 'safe' in his car.

[Ron Green]

33. A couple of things are at work:

1) The militarization of the police - more SWAT, more riot gear, more black clothes.
2) Hero status for police, especially in local media. "They serve us" is the idea, but of course it's the propertied class they really work for.

[Blue_Tires]

45. You might as well ask why the lives of whites have more 'value' than blacks

at least according to the legal system...