General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRape Culture Is Real
Rape culture is when women who come forward are questioned about what they were wearing.
Rape culture is when survivors who come forward are asked, “Were you drinking?”
Rape culture is when people say, “she was asking for it.”
Rape culture is when we teach women how to not get raped, instead of teaching men not to rape.
Rape culture is when the lyrics of Robin Thicke’s ‘Blurred Lines’ mirror the words of actual rapists and is still the number one song in the country.
Rape culture is when the mainstream media mourns the end of the convicted Steubenville rapists’ football careers and does not mention the young girl who was victimized.
Rape culture is when cyberbullies take pictures of sexual assaults and harass their victims online after the fact, which in the cases of Audrie Pott and Rehtaeh Parsons tragically ended in their suicides.
Rape culture is when, in 31 states, rapists can legally sue for child custody if the rape results in pregnancy.
Rape culture is when college campus advisers tasked with supporting the student body, shame survivors who report their rapes. (Annie Clark, a campus activist, says an administrator at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill told her when she reported her rape, “Well… Rape is like football, if you look back on the game, and you’re the quarterback, Annie… is there anything you would have done differently?”)
Rape culture is when colleges are more concerned with getting sued by assailants than in supporting survivors. (Or at Occidental College, where students and administrators who advocated for survivors were terrorized for speaking out against the school’s insufficient reporting procedures.)
It’s no surprise that we would refuse to acknowledge that rape and sexual violence is the norm, not the exception. It’s no surprise because most of us would rather believe that the terrible realities we hear about aren’t real or that, at least, we can’t do anything about it. The truth is ugly. But by denying the obvious we continue to allow rapists to go unpunished and leave survivors silenced.
http://time.com/40110/rape-culture-is-real/
The deniers will come out anyway... We will again hear how men are fleeing the Democratic party because of rape culture talk... We will again get the stupid about how it's the fault of women because of flirting... We will again see rape culture put in quotes... We will again hear women told to shut up because it's worse in other countries...So very fucked up.
One last tip guys... The fact of rape culture is not an accusation against you personally.
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Blue_Adept
(6,393 posts)The important information is getting lost in this sea of other topics in GD.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Blue_Adept
(6,393 posts)All I said was collecting a lot of this together and providing a useful resource.
LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)Blue_Adept
(6,393 posts)LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)or one of the feminist groups, or there. Because it strikes me as further ghettoizing the issue.
Blue_Adept
(6,393 posts)I talked about creating a separate resource. I never said keeping them out of here. Way to interpret and be defensive.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)on DU over the years, women have absolutely no reason to be defensive at all.
Blue_Adept
(6,393 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)are saying that it should not be discussed on gd.
i got from your post, thinking rape culture and other such issues important, and this stuff should be somewhere others can refer to it. and nowhere saying it should not be discussed in gd. is that correct?
few posts, so we really do not know where you stand and what your message is. it was not real clear. so please do not take it personally.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)The place it needs to be is in GD rather than get put off on a specialty shelf. The people who most need to learn about the issue would never see it over "there".
Response to cui bono (Reply #89)
Blue_Adept This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to Blue_Adept (Reply #93)
Post removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you try to feed the animosity.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)to be fed that garbage.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Thanks for enlightening everyone with yet another quality contribution
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)often we are told not to talk about womens issues on gd. just the other day, an OP was alerted cause they thought the discussion should be in womens groups, not gd. we hear it ALL the time.
that is all.
but... i get what you are saying. it would be good if we had a place of reference. we do have a place in hof, but havent updated, i do not think
please try to be patient, and understanding, if we do not toe the line far.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)LeftyMom
(49,212 posts)It's a predictable thing that already happens whenever any discussions of gender issues make certain posters uncomfortable.
RC
(25,592 posts)With all the noise you participate in about this, we think you'd be in favor of a place people in need, can go to get good information about what they can do and where they can go to get the help they need to heal from their traumas and move on to a more normal life again.
But that is not what the "Rape Culture" is all about, is it?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and how to get a hold of the places women may need, when in a bad situation. and that the OP is pinned in hof for women to have at hand.
but hey.... keep your agenda alive continually attacking hof cause of your own inadequacies.
RC
(25,592 posts)
But since you responded, show me some links where anyone in the HoF suggested that any woman would benefit from counseling to heal from the trauma of being raped. It would seem to me, that should be a major point in dealing with the victims of the "Rape Culture" that apparently pervades all of DU.
You can't. Those posts do not exist. Disrupting GD is more fun, isn't it?
cui bono
(19,926 posts)There is a forum/group whatever it is for sexual assault survivors already:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/126652
A link was posted by leftymom about it:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4759165
So what is your real problem? Why are you after redqueen in here?
RC
(25,592 posts)Again, where is any help for rape victims offered by the HoF? All I can see is their self-defined, blame placing, "Rape Culture".
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Why do you feel that group is so inadequate that HoF must take on that subject?
RC
(25,592 posts)They do not advocate getting help and seldom even acknowledge that such help even exists. It would be so easy to link to any help groups that DU has. But have they ever? Not to my knowledge.
That help should be front and center for a Group such as the HoF. It is not.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)The Sexual Assault Survivor group is right there in the Gender forum.
Why do you think that a group that is called History of Feminism "should" have assault help "front and center"? You seem to be implying that people who go to a group called History of Feminism by definition need to seek help.
What other groups have you posted about needing this help info "front and center"?
RC
(25,592 posts)Women, being a bit more empathetic than us hairy, knuckle dragging men, usually help each other. So what is wrong with advocating help with a problem a woman has trouble handling by herself?
Why is it no one can seem to supply a coherent answer as to why a women suffering from the emotional trauma of a violent rape, or whatever, should not get help?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you have not stopped for two days. k.... so this hof woman, that is suppose to stand up for, and respect women that have been a victim is doing it now. knock it the fuck off. she asked you two days ago to stop. you have not stopped.
what is wrong with you
RC
(25,592 posts)I am responding to a whole mindset, not any one DU'er.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)There is a Sexual Assault Survivor group that does that.
Why can't you accept a coherent answer as to where that help is and the purpose of a particular group?
The History of Feminism group serves as a safe haven to discuss, and learn the history of feminism. Apply the lessons of historical and modern day feminist struggles to current issues and events that impact women. This group will also serve as safe haven for women (and supporters of feminism) to openly and honestly discuss and learn how the patriarchy affects women individually and collectively.
Again, what other groups have you posted about that you think should supply help guidance? Can you provide me with links to your pleas for help of victims of racial profiling being posted "front and center" in the African-American group? Or do you reserve your misguided judgment and criticism for the HoF group?
RC
(25,592 posts)These other groups you mention, are not very high profile in General Discussion, with their constant "Toe Our Line" disruptions, as the HoF are. That is the difference. The HoF has their own Safe Haven, as do these other Groups. But it is the HoF that keep dragging their... How do I say this nicely, Specialized topics, into GD, daring anyone to disagree.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)That's how you started this whole exchange. Ironic, isn't it.
This OP was posted in GD by a man.
You seem to be pretty angry at HoF. You shouldn't let your emotions get in the way, it's making you irrational. Your argument makes no sense and you are making an irrational demand/criticism of a particular group that is not within its SOP. And for some reason you refuse to acknowledge that there already is a group for survivors of sexual assault.
So you might want to heed your own "words of wisdom" because your agenda is perfectly clear.
Texasgal
(17,040 posts)because no one ever said that?
"Why is it no one can seem to supply a coherent answer as to why a women suffering from the emotional trauma of a violent rape, or whatever, should not get help?"
Texasgal
(17,040 posts)Look, if someone were to come to me and ask where they could find services for themselves I would certainly help find it.
We're not stupid. Most of us know where to go and find help. Geez o' peat.
RC
(25,592 posts)That is one of the chances taken, by constantly posting flogging certain topics in the public of General Discussion, instead of keeping those topics in the Safe Haven of the HoF.
Some of us recognize the symptoms of long time suppressed hurts. So sue me for being empathic. She could have ignored me. She didn't, and I got my answer anyway.
Response to RC (Reply #201)
seabeyond This message was self-deleted by its author.
RC
(25,592 posts)If you think you're a gonna post something to get me upset enough to reply with something over the top, ain'ta gonna happen.
How about some links to back up your post there? I'm thinking that ain'ta gonna happen either.
Response to RC (Reply #206)
seabeyond This message was self-deleted by its author.
RC
(25,592 posts)You, on the other hand keep getting closer and closer... Why don't you take a clue. I probably won't alert on you, but other people are reading this thread too, and they just might. Is it really worth it to you?
demmiblue
(36,823 posts)
Texasgal
(17,040 posts)that most of us do not believe you were being empathic. I believe you have a bias. But hey, that's just my opinion.
She also asked you nicely to knock it off and you cannot seem to adhere to that simple request. I'm so sorry that HoF is not run like you would like it too. If you are so really concerned about violence against Women and getting help perhaps it would behoove you to join some of the resource groups that have clearly pointed out to you in these threads.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)he ignored. his whole purpose in life seems to be continually calling any woman that talks about these issues, as damaged goods. need psychiatric help. discredit her. silence his voice. to me? my way of thinking? that is sick shit
http://www.democraticunderground.com/125525481
Texasgal
(17,040 posts)HoF'ers are all to dumb to find appropriate resources for those that ARE affected by sexual violence.
Jaysus FUCKING CHRIST!
RC
(25,592 posts)And posters in General Discussion do not have to adhere to HoF rules. That is what you are trying to do.
I am still here posting only because a few people are responding to my posts with innuendo, strawmen, ad hominems, ambiguities and a few more reality challenging responses I am too lazy to look up, so I keep replying back. Stop that and this thread will die and sink out of sight.
As I have said before, this is not about one person, this is about a whole like minded group. You have a safe haven for a reason. GD is not a safe haven.
Texasgal
(17,040 posts)I should only discuss Womens issues in HoF? Why?
And honestly, how does this compute to your empathy regarding sexually abused Women? I was right about your agenda.
If you don't like it or don't wanna read it no one is forcing you to. Trash?
cui bono
(19,926 posts)You are completely wrong.
No one is trying to impose any rules here other than civility. You are the one who started with an attack on redqueen accusing her of having an "agenda". It came out of nowhere.
Then you start with your demand that HoF posts a list of numbers as a resource for rape survivors. You were told many times where to find that and that that isn't part of the HoF SOP, that there's a separate group just for that.
There is nothing wrong with discussing our rape culture in GD. There is something wrong with the way you harassed the women in the threads though. GD not being a safe haven for the rules of HoF is no excuse for your creepy, insensitive and hostile passive-aggressive harassment of women, especially the accusations and insults you hurled at a rape survivor.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)1) No, HoF is not a "womans Group". (Even if it is, what the fuck does that have to do with the price of tea in China?)
2) Women are not inherently more empathetic than men. That is sexist garbage.
3) The SOP of HoF is none of your business, you are not a host or even a member of the group. It is for the members and hosts of the group to decide what advocacy is appropriate per the SOP of the group.
4) HoF does not want or need your patronizing drivel (poorly disguised as advice) about what topics to focus on.
5) People don't have to provide answers that meet with your criteria for "coherence" just because you bark.
6) Your fixation on portraying rape survivors as "damaged" is creepy as fuck.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)
this was work. gotta be....
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Never mind what a major, widespread social issue sexual violence is.
BainsBane
(53,016 posts)and human rights are not nearly as important as who is going to host Meet the Press or the latest round of fantasy presidential candidates league.
And rather than simply trashing the thread so you could see these more important threads, you decided to reply seven times in this one.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)just the latest i read.
are you offended ohio joe, the man that readily supports women on du, are you offended that a man tells you biologically you cannot help raping women?
golly. every single man and boy i know and loves would be offended. what makes al these men and boys not biologically impressed to rape, when all men biologically are programmed to rape.
when men go around telling other men their libido is out of control, that sex defines them as a man, that they have a brain in their penis and the penis has its own identity, nature makes men rape.... then that too is part of the rape culture.
and women and girls sexuality is invisible, nonexistent, insignificant and only about GIVING to a man.
and we wonder why men and our boys are having a tough time acknowledging this shit with all the made up stories told, and conditioning being had to define their masculinity.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)That's exactly what I got out of the OP.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)"rape and sexual violence are the norm, not the exception"
FBI has the rate of rape per 100,000 females over age 12 as 76.5 per 100,000, in 1999.
Suppose there are ten times as many as they measure/estimate.
That would make the rate 765 per 100,000 or 0.8% which, apparently, is the norm, and 99.2% is the exception.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)See... What is being said is that when a society allows rape culture to exist (as we do), it makes rape and sexual violence the norm. This does not mean that most men are rapists and commit sexual violence... It means that they allow it to be normalized through the acceptance of rape culture.
That make more sense?
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)hence, it is NOT the norm. Not by a long shot. In 1999, the rate for rape and sexual assault was 1.7 per 1,000. Double that and multiply it by 10 (based on the ASSUMPTION that it is way under-reported, a fair assumption, but padding it by a factor of 10 should cover that) that makes it 34 per 1,000. The victims then are 3.4% and the non-victims 96%. To me, 96% is the norm and 4% is the exception.
Further 21,000 people were arrested for rape in 1999, and another 68,000 were arrested for other "sex offenses" (not including rape or prostitution).
When people are arrested for it, and sent to prison for it, that seems to me like a fairly good indication that society is not approving of that behaviour.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)I can't say I'm surprised.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)What a society "approves of" and what sorts of things are actually prevalent in that society are two different things.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)That term means it's what usually occurs. I think what you meant to say is that it is made to seem to be normal behavior, to be accepted as normal.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)But yes, "that it is made to seem to be normal behavior, to be accepted as normal" based on the context of the article, that is how I read it.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)all kinds of manner in our society. not that being raped is a norm, though not way way off.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)Using his numbers, women have a greater than 1 in two chance of being raped over their lifetime.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)
But let's be honest...ignore *what* definition? They are a dime a dozen and evolving each day to mean completely different things, which are sometimes absolutely opposed to our current reality.
I don't think its a stretch to point to enclaves of power, exclusive groups or fraternal organizations and talk about their culture and the behavior it produces. But how damn silly it gets when they try and make this a one-size-fits-all term for every sexually deviant behavior or miscarriage of justice in every corner of the country, no matter how much they are the outlier.
If you want the water-down your fluid, evolving definition to the point of ridiculousness, all the power to you.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)some more. always consistent
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)"seabeyond derail site:democraticunderground.com"
About 20,300 results (0.14 seconds)
Have you ever considered that pretending people you are discussing with have an ulterior motive and are not responding in good faith may be some subconscious defense mechanism to leave your perceived reality unchallenged? Just curious. It seems like an easy way to put your fingers in your ears and say "nanana, I'm not listening"
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)not use derail. i do use it on the poster that only comes into threads to derail. each. and every. time.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)You didn't make the short list. I didn't either. No biggie
Here is a clue: don't pretend and declare other's intentions in an effort to silence them, even if it helps you evade some mental gymnastics. Such a very tactic is the basis for "derailing" dialogue.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)derailed this whole subthread and continue to do
Ms. Toad
(33,999 posts)Yes - it is pretty much the norm.
A female age 12 in the US can be expected to live to an average of 80.
So an average of 68 years to become one of the statistics - 68*76.5 = 5202/100,000 = 5.2% lifetime risk. Using your 10% rate of reporting, that increases to 52% lifetime risk. RAINN suggests a 40% reporting rate, making the lifetime risk 7.8%.
So (using your numbers), a 12 year old today has a 1 in 20 chance of being raped and reporting it, according to RAINN's projection that translates into approximately a 1 in 12 chance of being raped; and based on your estimate of reporting rate - women experience a greater than 1 in 2 chance of being raped.
Warpy
(111,169 posts)That's from infancy until death, rapists don't care about anything but humiliating and defiling a woman.
Let's see, 0.8%x85 years is a 68% probability of rape over a woman's lifetime. That's as ridiculously high as the FBI's stats are ridiculously low.
Surviving sexual violence carries a load of shame that prevents most victims from reporting the rape. In addition, should charges be pressed, a woman knows everything she has ever said or done of a sexual nature will be used to slut shame her in court and the "boys will be boys" rape culture will let her attacker go.
Wake up, every single woman you see in your lifetime is facing this and it poisons every relationship you will ever have with a woman.
Of course, for men who see us as less than human, it's just ducky.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)are not poisoned.
At least not that I know of.
Just hung out with three of my favorite women on my birthday - sister, sister-in-law and niece.
We talk about any number of things, and the subject of rape - never comes up.
Being involved in sexual violence is no doubt very traumatic. However, it is not normal with any woman I have ever known very well, which admittedly would be mostly family, but a fairly large family.
Warpy
(111,169 posts)You spoke the truth there.
You are not safe to speak about rape with.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)my sister is quite fond of me, and I of her.
Yeah, I am not safe to speak with. After all, I might be gratuitously insulting.
Now where did I put that mirror?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)people they love with all their heart, that they are connected and close to.
many victims do not discuss it with anyone.
ever
and often it is a friend. not a family member
so, do not assume since these women you love and love you have not discussed it with you, means they have not experienced any of this shit.... or lesser degrees.
and do not take it personally if they choose to keep it to themselves.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)
gollygee
(22,336 posts)and saying most guys would be offended by those assumptions.
It's in this thread but the worst post was deleted. http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4755408
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)When people deny in this manner, they are simply trying to twist the it to the accusation of all men being rapists and then taking it to an absurd conclusion.
They are afraid... And that is sad.
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Do you find a woman on the SI swimsuit edition attractive and said so without being ashamed? - rape culture.
Do you challenge the idea that a drunk woman cannot give consent, but a drunk man always gives consent, making him a de facto rapist? - rape culture
Not only is that rape culture, but that makes anyone who asks these question an enabler to rape who allows it to happen.
These are things that were said and accusations that were leveled.
boston bean
(36,219 posts)I think it goes deeper than culture. Saw a nature show
a few months ago that showed a female lion straying too far into another pride's territory. The lioness was chased down by the much larger males, who forced her to the ground with the threat of violence. The narrator said that "having his way with her" was the price she had to pay in order to escape alive. It was plainly a rape, quite shocking to watch.
This behavior crosses species. We didn't teach culture to lions any more than they taught us. I think rape culture is the inaccurate description of something else, far more insidious and deeper within us, and impossible to stamp out.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024755840#post43
joeglow3
(6,228 posts)Yes. I would like to think we, as a species, are capable of being better than this. Personally, I do not feel the urge to rape a woman at any point in my day, so I cannot fathom how someone else could feel that.
That said, I do find comparisons with other species interesting. Given that evolution is a fact, at some point on the spectrum, that trait was most likely present in us. What caused that change?
gollygee
(22,336 posts)If both people are drunk, and one is initiating and carrying out sex while the other is too drunk to actively participate, the one who carries it out is the rapist regardless of the gender of either or both, and regardless of whether the one carrying out sex is also very drunk.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)The "rules" of consent don't change just because you're intoxicated. Yet some seem to believe that drunkenness equals de facto consent, which is an utterly fucked-up way of thinking.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)with purpose.
Sheldon Cooper
(3,724 posts)"men" are leaving the Democratic party because of rape culture talk?? Why didn't someone tell me this before??!!! 
At last, they can finally join the rest of the bros "going their own way" and hit the road.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)Warning, big thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024752265#post100
seaglass
(8,171 posts)
Tsiyu
(18,186 posts)K & R
If the laws allow for lenient sentences, we need to fight to change the laws.
If colleges and universities are not taking this seriously, we need to force them to take it seriously.
One more victim is one too many.
TDale313
(7,820 posts)Incredibly well put. Particularly the last line, which seems to somehow be a major issue for some.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)At this point... After it has been explained so many times... I begin to feel it is intentional and just being used as a talking point to continue denial.
Starry Messenger
(32,342 posts)Just imagine if someone said that the reason white men leave the Democratic party to vote Republican is because of the NAACP, for example. Or the ADL, or the HRC? I wonder if that would attract the attention of the owners of this place?
In_The_Wind
(72,300 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)duers have come in to reply to my post. they have pointed out how they are looking at this from a different angle. instead of an increase, really we are seeing awareness. and this is the time to press. educate. speak up and out, loudly. using the internet to address. move forward.
i like this mentality. this thinking. this hope
so i was thinking about your OP. rape culture. do you know, that it has only been the last couple years of me educating myself, and having many many conversation about the rape culture, objectification, hypersexualizing/pornifying our women and girls, benevolent sexism and so much more. and the effects on our men, women, children, relationships and society as a whole.
i have spent a lot of time learning. and rape culture just the last year.
once seen, we cannot unsee. it is so easy for us to see. to understand. it is so clear.
but... this is all relatively new.
so... i am going with hope. today.
after a horrendous yesterday with stupid and lotsa lotsa trolls, lol
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)voted to Leave It Alone because - Lounge.
Because - women are just jealous that another women is getting attention for posting the pictures. Rationale.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)I have no doubt it's true... Did the Hosts at least lock it under the no drama clause?
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)newcriminal
(2,190 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)newcriminal
(2,190 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)newcriminal
(2,190 posts)You never answered the question. You provided nothing but an unsupported allegation. Again provide the link.
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)doesn't mean it should be censored for the rest of us.
Once again I lament: when did prudishness become a progressive ideal?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)it is a given, with where we went with du3. to expect anything else is to truly be naive.
and not a parent, lol. 
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)ANARCHISTS R US.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)CFLDem
(2,083 posts)It's what makes this country awesome to normal level headed citizens.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)I am done with you and your crap.
thucythucy
(8,039 posts)to post and see bondage porn?
Aren't there other places you can go for this? Like, you know, thousands of other web pages?
Generally speaking, we don't allow obviously racist crap to be posted here. Is that a "free speech" issue too?
If the context is appropriate for a political forum.
Problem is no one really knows the context for said discussion a since Tuesday is being so evasive about it.
thucythucy
(8,039 posts)You wrote, "Just because bondage isn't your kink" is no reason to keep it off a progressive political discussion board.
You then phrased it as a "free speech" issue--as if a private political discussion board is somehow in violation of your first amendment rights because it won't cater to your "kink."
But I agree, context matters. If an image was posted with the intent of saying--"this is a disgusting example of what we're fighting"--it might perhaps be justified as a post, assuming there was also a trigger warning. But, again, that's not what your initial, one might say reflexive reaction was. It was to castigate those objecting to such an image on a political discussion board as prudes, per se.
My recollection is that the image was taken down as inappropriate, along with the "boobs in space" OP from a while back, but I could be wrong.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)what your right to free speech protects you from? Here's a hint,it doesn't protect your right to say or post anything on an internet forum,nor does it protect you from criticism.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT ME AT ALL. CFLDEM. AND YOU NEVER WILL.
BECAUSE I DO NOT WANT TO KNOW YOU LIKE THAT.
THE LOUNGE IS PUBLIC SPACE.
WHAT YOU DO IN PRIVATE IS NONE OF MY CONCERN.
WHAT I DO IN PRIVATE IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.
GET OVER YOURSELF AND PUT ME ON IGNORE.
PLEASE.
PEACE OUT.
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)Are you talking about?
Yikes.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)mythology
(9,527 posts)I have no problems with images of people in bondage, but is this an appropriate forum to put up pictures of said kink? Granted I haven't seen the image in question, but I doubt it was a serious discussion on the merits or bondage as a kink.
CFLDem
(2,083 posts)but judging by the massive flameout going on here, I'm sorry I missed it.
Blue_Adept
(6,393 posts)It likely didn't belong here, but I'd like to know what it was specifically.
Was it an erotic image? Or was it those images for the back of pickup trucks that have bound women them? Neither is appropriate for here, but they are two VERY different conversations to be had.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)Why? Why target Feminists? Why focus your energy on denigrating the DUers who are concerned about rape, rape culture, and the myriad oppressions of the patriarchy?
(Actually, those are all rhetorical questions. Since you're relentlessly obtuse about rape culture, I have to conclude that you're the latest candidate for my IL--where I relegate all the sexists, misogynists, racists, homophobes, and verbal bullies that infest this forum.)
CFLDem
(2,083 posts) Blue_Adept
(6,393 posts)I'd rather not say anything without some context.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Blue_Adept
(6,393 posts)I like to make informed decisions before saying anything? Context is key? I'm not just going to join any old witchhunt, I like to make sure that it actually makes sense.
Response to Blue_Adept (Reply #42)
CFLDem This message was self-deleted by its author.
Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)Tuesday Afternoon
(56,912 posts)you need context for that? in what world are you living that you need context?
explain to me YOUR rationale, please. is this PLAYBOY UNDERGROUND? No. This is DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND. right?
if it was a witch hunt I would have named names.
Blue_Adept
(6,393 posts)Seriously? Isn't one of the big things about being a dem and a progressive that you actually seek out things for yourself, ask questions and exchange ideas? Context and all that? If you're going to hold up a post as something that is plainly wrong, and I'm likely to agree with you, then point it out. Instead of just being like this about it. Point to it so others can rage at it as well.
But seriously, I'd just like to see for myself to form my own opinion. Is that so incredibly wrong?
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)Context is everything here. A lot of people consent to the 50 Shades treatment of being bound, gagged, whipped, you name it.
tkmorris
(11,138 posts)Perhaps in a discussion about said movie, or, I dunno, just about ANYTHING. Context does matter Tuesday.
Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #48)
rug This message was self-deleted by its author.
seaglass
(8,171 posts)
Paladin
(28,243 posts)
rrneck
(17,671 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
ismnotwasm
(41,967 posts)Thank for this great summary
For the people who no longer want to read about a topic-- trash thread is just like magic- it's no longer there. I use it often. This topic is one of interest to me
There is also trash by key word-- very handy for me. There is ignore. Many tools to use besides complaining about a topic.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)I suspect that RAINN, for instance, would offer a different assessment of several of your examples.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)If two people/groups disagree on some particular example... How does that matter?
I expect there is no such thing as a definitive list of examples, as well I expect this particular list was not meant to be all inclusive and/or definitive... Simply a list of examples as the author sees them.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)DU abounds with examples of a certain contingent more than eager to declare that this jury verdict or that magzine cover is proof of rape culture, and anyone who disagrees is identified either as a willful enabler of rape culture or a blind victim of it. That certain contingent has declared itself to have unassailable authority to declare what rape culture is and what it is not. On what grounds, other than by its own fiat?
I cited RAINN in particular because that group takes issue with the basic assumption that rape culture per se exists and that it underlies the many ills attributed to it.
Unless we accept that rape culture exists exactly and only as declared by that certain contingent, then it seems to me that disagreement is entirely reasonable and, to answer your question, it matters because the disagreement necessarily shapes the discussion.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)I did not understand, sorry... Have fun with the denial
Orrex
(63,172 posts)You should perhaps contact RAINN to advise them that they're being libelled, and you should probably update Wikipedia's entry on rape culture.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)And your own link proves it... Why are you trying to spread something that is not true?
Orrex
(63,172 posts)From RAINN's own website:
RAINN's particular statement on the matter even puts "rape culture" in quotes, yet you seem to interpret this as unambiguous assent.
So, as I've now correctly stated twice, any divergence from your particular definition must be attacked as blindness, culpability, or dishonesty.
It must be very reassuring to live in such absolutism.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)you will not hear a single feminist or those that support feminist say otherwise. ONLY the rapist is responsible for the rape.
it is others that would like to blame eveyrone but the rapist. hence the rape culture. you know, the people that we continually call out. those that blame a womans dress. drinking. going out at night without a man. not preventing her rape. yada yada.
so again.... where is the disagreement.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Oh nooooooooes. In their denial, RAINN is promoting rape culture (unquoted mind you)!
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)"From RAINN's own website:
"Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime,”
That certainly doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement of your particular envisioning of rape culture."
Context is an important thing. What RAINN is discussing is how it is best to combat the issue of rape and what they are trying to put across is that focusing on rape culture is not, in their opinion, the best way to do it. Trying to twist what is in fact said into something else by cherry picking a part without context is being dishonest. Your own words even prove they do not deny rape culture exists - "That certainly doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement of your particular envisioning of rape culture." - Those are your words... The fact is, RAINN does not deny rape culture exists... When you said that they do deny it, you said something that is not true.
"RAINN's particular statement on the matter even puts "rape culture" in quotes, yet you seem to interpret this as unambiguous assent."
Saying they do not deny it does not mean they are endorsing it as a means to combat rape.
"So, as I've now correctly stated twice"
No. Twice you have said something that is not true by your own links and words.
"any divergence from your particular definition must be attacked as blindness, culpability, or dishonesty."
Non-sense, I've never said or implied any such thing. In fact, go back to my first reply to you and it is clear I said the exact opposite. That you keep saying things you know to not be true is what is dishonest.
"It must be very reassuring to live in such absolutism."
It must be weird to live in a reality where you can just cherry pick bits and pieces to try and justify your denial.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)Produce that statement, and I will recant.
Absent that statement, you are simply making things up to suit your agenda.
Non-sense, I've never said or implied any such thing. In fact, go back to my first reply to you and it is clear I said the exact opposite. That you keep saying things you know to not be true is what is dishonest.
You have accused me of "spreading bullshit" because I disagree with you.
You have accused me of saying things that are "simply not true" because I disagree with you.
You have accused me of being in denial because I disagree with you.
You have accused me of dishonesty because I disagree with you.
By what authority to you declare yourself and your opinions impervious to review and disagreement?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)"You have accused me of "spreading bullshit" because I disagree with you.
You have accused me of saying things that are "simply not true" because I disagree with you.
You have accused me of being in denial because I disagree with you.
You have accused me of dishonesty because I disagree with you."
No, I accused you of those things because you made a claim then disproved it with you own links and words.
"By what authority to you declare yourself and your opinions impervious to review and disagreement?"
Review and disagreement are fine... Deny rape culture exists all you want... But when you make claims that are disproven with your own links and words, I'll point it out. That is not declaring myself an authority, it's pointing out reality.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)You have asserted your own curious interpretation of RAINN's fairly straightforward statement, and then you accused me of spreading bullshit, etc.
All because I disagreed with you, as I have correctly noted several times now.
What I have done is question a particular contingent's authority to declare that this or that issue is indicative of rape culture. I am aware of no one on DU who would seriously question any of the items on the OP's checklist, and of course that's not the dispute.
The dispute arises when a particular contingent summarily declares that some particular gray area is self-evident proof of rape culture, as if no other interpretation exists. On what basis does that particular contingent assume that absolute authority?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)really, i think like wayyyyy more of you.
not a big deal. you did not really read her words?? or didnt catch it cause so many men are running around using rainnn against rape culture.
Response to seabeyond (Reply #138)
Post removed
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)At that point, I think the club of malcontents have overstepped their self-given mandate to define all things about feminism. IOW, get over yourself already. I already have. This absurdity has only induced a Pavlovian response to chuckle at the nonsense spouted 24/7 on DU.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)said anything like that. and.... it is offensive to suggest that anyone is little that piece of shit off the hook for raping a child. what a disgusting horrible thing to accuse duers of.
that is so offenses i have no interest to read the rest of your insults and disdain and ugliness toward duers.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)it is offensive to suggest that anyone is little that piece of shit off the hook for raping a child.
I don't understand you
what a disgusting horrible thing to accuse duers of.
What am I accusing who of what?
that is so offenses i have no interest to read the rest of your insults and disdain and ugliness toward duers.
Did you just work yourself into a confused frenzy?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)no one said that rape culture lets this man off the hook for raping a three yr old.
NO ONE said rape culture.... let this man off the hook
NO one said this man was off the hook for rape for any reason.
you do not get the lie in that. you do not get how offensive that is to accuse anyone of letting a rapist of a baby off the hook?
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)That is the PREMISE of the entire thread
And I of course asked, since "rape culture" was being redefined, if it was responsible for incest/pedis/child rape or their lack of punishment. And yes, plenty of people helped push the boundaries from the fraternity assholes, et al, to suggest that "rape culture" is this systematic thing that is shared by the society at large that either produces child rape or lets child rapists off easy.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024754936
Every day, you learn a little something new. If only we hated child rape more, there would be no more child rapist or they would all be in jail. But its all of our faults since we just darn well don't hate it enough. Its part of our culture, you know. "Hush hush".
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)hook
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)No, DUer suggested that "rape culture" let a child rapist off the hook (who was just coincidently a Du Pont heir). There is a thread that proves it. Read it. Use your reading comprehension skills.
No one in our society--besides a judge and the AG office--is letting the man off the hook, because our culture HATES child rapists. DUers hate child rapists. We do not have a child rape culture anymore than we have a dog rape culture (and people do that still too).
I'm not sure how you twisted yourself into a pretzel to read it in the manner in which you did.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Now, I didn't say a DUer did. You know this. You continue with the bizarre straw man though. In fact, its reaching the point of defamation at this point.
DUers suggested, in that thread I've linked to twice, that "rape culture" was the reason the Du Pont heir is not serving time for child rape. That is entirely consistent with how I've worded this.
You are interpreting reality in a very strange way. And as I said before, neither you nor I am the authority on reality. You need to step back a bit from the edge though before continuing your accusations further.
Response to NoOneMan (Reply #176)
seabeyond This message was self-deleted by its author.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)Do you deny rape culture?
If yes, why?
If no, how would you define it?
Do you think any of the examples in the OP are incorrect? If so, which ones and why?
Please... Clear everything up.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)I find the term "rape culture" generally unhelpful because its use (as seen on DU) is immediately imposed as a purity test to see who can profess the greatest hatred for rape, and anyone who doesn't share the definition embraced by a certain contingent is attacked as a blind or willful enabler of rape culture.
I accept the position put forth by RAINN that "Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime."
No. Nor do I believe that anyone in this thread has denied any of those examples.
However, you indirectly identify the problem of mission creep: a certain contingent quite reasonably opposes what it identifies as "rape culture," and it cites a number of monstrous examples about which no one on DU reasonably disagrees, such as the examples in the OP (which I'll call "Category A"
. However, that same certain contingent then tries to include other, less self-evident behaviors (Category B) under the "rape culture" label by fiat (e.g., non-pornographic mainstream magazine covers). Then, when other people resist the inclusion of these Category B behaviors, these people are explicitly attacked as though they specifically embrace and endorse the worst extremes of Category A.
This happens again and again. It's happening in the current cycle of "rape culture" threads, it happened in the "objectification" threads a few weeks ago, in the "SISI cover threads a few weeks before that, and in the "rape porn" threads a few weeks earlier still. The certain contingent repeatedly tries to equate those things that it finds aesthetically objectionable to those things that are all but universally (on DU) denounced as vile and unacceptable. That's an unsupportable leap of logic, and yet they pretend that it's a perfect, obvious, and indisputable chain of reasoning.
I'm pretty much done here. I've stated my position, and I've repeatedly stated why I don't accept yours. Say what you like from this point out; I expect that I'll again be denounced as culpably blind enabler of rape culture, but since I don't accept your authority to issue such declarations, then your repeated accusation means little to me.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)that is not what people are talking about, so merely rainn interpretation of what is being said. meh.... again, not denying there is a rape culture.
"While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem" agreeing there is a rape culture, and necessary to be aware
"Rape is caused not by cultural factors" a real duh and EVERY feminist would say and does say just this so not knowing where they get that ANYONE thinks differently.
so, orrex. where does rainn say the rape culture does not exist?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)rape culture does not exist. they are complaining about so many discussing rape culture thinking it takes away from the actual rapist.
see the difference?
yet, now rainn is held up by MRA... (not you mra) saying that rainn now agrees with them, there is not a rape culture.
that is NOT what rainn said.
they think discussing rape culture takes away from the effort to say, have rapes on campus being criminally charged instead of going in front of a board at the college campus. because, they are crimes.
i agree. i have always felt that rapes accusations should be police reports. not school reports. or military reports. to have rapes reviewed within, where it behooves them to brush under the rug for reputation and $, does not make sense.
now, rainn says, we are so busy talking rape culture, we are not addressing this.
this is where i say fuggin' for real? why does the military and colleges get to have "reviews" about rapes instead of the crimes being given to our criminal system. THE FUGGIN RAPE CULTURE. duh.
so. rainn is not saying there is not a rape culture. they think we need to quit talking about it. i say, we exactly need to talk about it so we get why rape is merely a review for some institutions instead of a crime
YET.... men on du hold rainn up as saying rainn says rape culture does not exist.
that is not what rainn says
ladyVet
(1,587 posts)I suspect that RAINN, for instance, would offer a different assessment of several of your examples.
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)"Rape Culture" is what I want it to be on any given day, depending upon my mood and who I want to shame.
A "misogynist" is anyone who disagrees with anything I say.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)[URL=
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Orrex
(63,172 posts)I can think of one DUer in particular with a proven track record of attacking other women on DU. Does that make her a misogynist?
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)If one pretends misogyny does not exist... It is a pretty good bet that one is a misogynist.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)I have, in fact, referred to a DUer with a long history of attacking women.
If faced with what one feels to be an incorrect accusation of misogyny, what is the proper response? That is, if someone were to accuse you particularly of misogyny or of enabling rape culture, and if you truly believed the accusation to be incorrect, then how would you reply?
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)"I have, in fact, referred to a DUer with a long history of attacking women."
Misogyny is the hatred of women... It is not exclusive to men. Without knowing more about this DU'er you refer to, I do not know if they are or not... I also do not see the relevance, you should PM the Admins with links.
"If one pretends misogyny does not exist... It is a pretty good bet that one is a misogynist.
If one insists that only one interpretation of misogyny is correct, then it's a pretty good bet that one has never seriously examined the issue."
Did I say that was the only interpretation of misogyny? Did I imply such? Silliness.
"If faced with what one feels to be an incorrect accusation of misogyny, what is the proper response? That is, if someone were to accuse you particularly of misogyny or of enabling rape culture, and if you truly believed the accusation to be incorrect, then how would you reply?"
To start with... I would probably review my actions and words to see if I am in fact wrong before I started trying to deny that such things even exist. I definitely would not cherry pick through RIANN and claim they said it did not exist as a defense. I absolutely would not defend that claim to the death when it is easily proven untrue.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)To start with... I would probably review my actions and words to see if I am in fact wrong before I started trying to deny that such things even exist.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)First you claim RAINN "takes issue with the basic assumption that rape culture per se exists" here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024758885#post76
Now the claim is "significance of "rape culture" is explicitly diminished in priority?"
Yeah... When the claim changes and you don't stand by your words, it is a bit difficult to prove anything.... Sheesh.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)But if you would rather pretend that they are, instead of actually answering the question put forth to you, then I guess that's your business.
You're correct that it's difficult for you to prove anything, but that's not because of what I'm posting.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Now what?
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)You could start by not perpetuating, encouraging or tolerating such behavior.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)I'm not a rapist or an accomplice to a rapist.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)You don't think anyone else does them?
Really?
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)And I'm sure no one else here does as well.
Again, now what?
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)Cultural changes are not easy... How are any of them brought about?
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)I automatically tolerate people blaming rape victims.
Get real. No one here would ever tolerate blaming the victim.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)But victim blaming does indeed happen here on DU... Far to often in fact. There are people in this very thread denying rape culture exists and even making jokes about it. Are you doing anything about that or tolerating it?
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)I only responded to the OP.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)Do you need links to the deniers in this thread so you can do something or can you find them yourself?
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)But I don't.
No need for snark.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)And this is why rape culture is a problem.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)If I sat around looking for every offensive post, I would never get anything done.
Do you have the time to look for every offensive post?
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)Time to reply here... How many times now? It is not like they are hidden... They are right here and open about it... Sheesh.
1691 posts in the last 90 days... Sorry to disturb your thesis.
And you know... I'm not being snarky about this, I'm serious. When you ignore what is right in front of you... Give it a pass and not say anything... That, is tolerating rape culture.
And I understand busy... I'm busy. I do not have time to address every wrong in the world but... Imagine how it appears when you take the time to post the same thing over and over, throwing up your hands and going 'What can be done' in the very same threads where you could do something...
WTF?
Jesus... I was going to put in links but in looking, I see you are so busy with your thesis you have time to be making your own jokes about rape culture:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024759864#post85
Fucking disgusting.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Everyone looks at porn.
So what?
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)I think that is pretty fucking sick.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)that doesn't need banning.
BTW, your fauxrage is noted.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)Here is the link again:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024759864#post85
It is a thread that dispels a lie that has been repeated by MRA's in the last few days regarding rape culture. There is not a single thing that even hints at banning anything in the OP you replied to... Simply not true.
Of course... In the thread perpetuating that lie, you took the time out from your thesis to also laugh at a joke there as well:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024752265#post377
So very fucked up.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)Or your false claims about why you were making them... It's interesting what you make time for and what you claim you are to busy for... It says so much.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)Do you think anything should be said when it's done or do you walk on by and ignore it?
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)You go ahead and post to at least some of the many jokes being made about rape culture in threads about rape culture... Let me know, then I'll go ahead and post to the one being said to a hidden post that pointint out the absurdity of anti-feminist views in a thread about how someone feel about DU trolls... Deal?
Orrex
(63,172 posts)Care to return the favor and point me to some of them? I'll be happy to chime in, even if you and I don't agree on exactly what "rape culture" means.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)Orrex
(63,172 posts)One is a joke about Dworkin, an acutely polarizing figure even among feminists, not least because of her cozy relationship with the Meese committee, and the other is a joke about... I'm not sure exactly what. It's sort of a self-dig by Vashta Nerada as well as a commentary on the ubiquity of porn.
I'm not being snarky about this: I honestly don't see how these two posts are examples of "jokes about rape culture." Al Franken, of all people, has made jokes about porn and about Dworkin. Why do you consider these two posts to be over the top?
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)I'm shocked.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)I imagine that it's similar to a McCarthy-ism or the witch trials of old. Seek, and ye shall find.
Unless you deify Dworkin for some odd reason, why is a joke about her a joke about rape culture?
Is she to be exalted above all others? Is she impervious to satire?
Why must she still be held sacrosanct even by those who disagree with her?
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)"Is she to be exalted above all others? Is she impervious to satire?
Why must she still be held sacrosanct even by those who disagree with her?"
I know next to nothing about her, don't much care... It's about making jokes about rape culture in a rape culture thread so don't bother trying to go off on other things... Deliver your end or don't bother.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)Do you seriously believe that every OP has the power to declare what all of the replies to that OP are about?
They were two jokes about Andrea Dworkin, a hugely polarizing political figure ripe for satire. Ask Senator Al Franken, if you disagree. You have no authority to declare that jokes about Dworkin are necessarily about what you define as rape culture, even if those jokes appear in a thread about what you define as rape culture.
This is what I was talking about upthread, by the way; a certain contingent declares that any post it finds aesthetically objectionable ist verboten on the grounds that they can imagine some way to equate that post to their worst imaginings of rape culture.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)You don't want to follow through, don't... I don't expect anyone thought you would once your attempt at a 'gotcha' was turned around. The continued excuses are tiresome.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)And you posted links to jokes about Dworkin. If you can't follow through, don't blame me.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)Too funny 
Orrex
(63,172 posts)Well, I admit that I suspected it all along.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)It's all you seem to do even in the face of documented facts... It's pretty strange to see.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)Your entire position boils down to this: you're mad that everyone doesn't unquestioningly embrace your contingent's particular use of a particular word to frame a particular issue.
And I'll tell you this: I have an established record of admitting my mistakes when I am convinced of my error, and I have done so numerous times on DU. Can you say the same of yourself? Or are you always correct?
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)You started in this with the bogus claim that RAINN denied rape culture exists... Simply a false claim, documented by your own links... You continue to stick to that false claim even going to such lengths that if I did not find them agreeing with me, that proved they denied it existed.
You then try a 'gotcha' and wiggle away when it does not go how you wanted.
Yes... I do in fact admit when I am wrong. I'd like to see you follow up and do as you claim you do.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)Actually, that's a lie. You claimed in reply #76 that was my position. Since that's your own convenient rephrasing of my position, it's a straw man, and I'm under no obligation to accept it or defend it.
My "gotcha" was to point out an unmistakable joke about domestic violence, and you curiously opted not to address it. Perhaps because it aligns with your agenda, or perhaps because your hypocrisy forbids you to criticize any of the HoF principals.
Point me to actual jokes about rape culture, and I will indeed call out the joker. Rape culture is not a joke about Andrea Dworkin. Find me a joke about any of the examples listed in the OP, and I'll get right on them.
Silent3 has masterfully demonstrated the emptiness of your position, in which you worship a word to the exclusion of the actual subject. I'm sure that you've convinced yourself that you're fighting the good fight, though, so go on with your bad self.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)"I cited RAINN in particular because that group takes issue with the basic assumption that rape culture per se exists and that it underlies the many ills attributed to it."
Again...
"the basic assumption that rape culture per se exists"
Linky
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4759575
Who is lying?
Who is going to admit when they are wrong?
Orrex
(63,172 posts)I am not "spreading the bullshit that 'RAINN denies rape culture.'" Instead, I am citing RAINN directly, which you find inconvenient.
It is also a lie to say that I deny that rape culture exists. Here is my position, as stated in reply #202:
I find the term "rape culture" generally unhelpful because its use (as seen on DU) is immediately imposed as a purity test to see who can profess the greatest hatred for rape, and anyone who doesn't share the definition embraced by a certain contingent is attacked as a blind or willful enabler of rape culture.
I accept the position put forth by RAINN that "Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime."
It's late, and rather than continuing to address your lies and your intellectually empty prattling, I'm going to end it here.
Say what you will from this point out. Several in this thread have destroyed what you probably think are your best arguments, and since you can't see it after 200 posts, you're probably not going to see it at all.
Certainly you've demonstrated no ability to admit your own error.
It would help your credibility, however, if you were to admit that acceptance of your definition of "rape culture" is less important than addressing the examples cited in the OP. Why do you insist on the purity test, requiring everyone to accept your anointed meme?
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)Your words that started it all are there... It's plain but nice try.
Since you are leaving (again), let me just say thanks for the kicks, they got at least another dozen recs.
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)Do you not take a break at your job? Or do they make you work straight through a whole eight hours?
BTW, I didn't get the results of my thesis analysis until the 21st.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)Do you not realize people can see what you post?
Vashta Nerada
(3,922 posts)And what exactly did I post that was "wrong"?
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)I can't say I'm surprised you would think it fine to make such jokes though... Fucked up.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)But there you go. Words mean things, they have actual definitions, and you don't get to redefine them at will. In the case of the word 'culture', it does not mean "99% of society reacts with horror".
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)The fact is, they happen all to regularly... Is it simply the term you have a problem with or do you also deny these things happen?
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)What would you call this phenomenon?
NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)But any rate of occurrence beyond zero is not evidence in itself of some widespread culture.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)NoOneMan
(4,795 posts)Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)Just skip to laughing at jokes about rape culture?
I notice a lot of deniers are afriad to state clearly what they think... Why is that?
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)In any case, you do not get to redefine terms. The word CULTURE has a meaning already, and one that does not include 'Illegal and abhorrent to 99% of the population.'
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)I heard that you deny rape culture, that was clear... Now, about the examples in the OP? Is there a reason you are avoiding this?
Silent3
(15,148 posts)What this other poster is saying pretty clearly as far as I can see, and with which I'd agree, is that denying the applicability of the term "culture" and supposedly denying all of the bad things in the OP are not the same thing.
It's like someone decides that the assassination of Abraham Lincoln is henceforth to be called "turnip", someone else says, "That's a stupid use for the word 'turnip'", and the first person angrily shouts back, "Why are you denying that Abraham Lincoln was assassinated!?"
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)You don't seem to be able to follow what is being said then... See... I asked the poster how he would describe the phenomenon of the examples in the OP since he does not like the term used to describe it... He refuses to answer and instead keeps saying he does not like the term.
Clearer?
Silent3
(15,148 posts)...that he's sticking with his original point about misuse of the word "culture", and that he's under no obligation to offer some special catch-all replacement term to cover what others all calling a "culture".
The OP brings up a lot of bad stuff that happens, and as long as this poster isn't condoning or denying those bad things, what's the big deal?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)really? that is what it is all about?
why? for denial purposes? to avoid conversation about it all? no word that will wrap it all up so we all clearly understand what we are talking about. just.... bad stuff.
lmfao
well. that is a new approach. i havent seen that one.
Silent3
(15,148 posts)You just can't expect that everyone else will automatically go along with your terminology, or will take kindly to being classified as deniers or enablers just because they don't go along with your designated vocabulary.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)cause you do not like what this "stuff" is called.
truly
silliness.
Silent3
(15,148 posts)...and other malfeasance in the OP? Where exactly has that been refused?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)I'm not angry at all...
"...that he's sticking with his original point about misuse of the word "culture", and that he's under no obligation to offer some special catch-all replacement term to cover what others all calling a "culture"."
Read again... I very clearly and specifically stated I understood he did not like the term, so I asked what he would call it... He just keeps repeating that he does not like the term... Kind of like what you are now doing. Don't you think it fair that if someone is going to take the time to complain about a term you are using, they should at least state what they think it should be?
Silent3
(15,148 posts)...which covers the matter pretty well. Those words are also pretty obvious too, so no, it doesn't seem at all particularly noteworthy that the poster didn't supply obvious vocabulary to meet your demands when "crime" and "horror" remain obvious even when left unsaid.
I'm not a neurosurgeon, but I know that smacking someone in the head with a sledgehammer would be a terrible way to treat a brain tumor.
If I'm trying to stop someone from using a sledgehammer, going ahead with the sledgehammer doesn't become a better idea or the default treatment just because I can't quickly come up with an alternate treatment plan. Saying that someone is using the word "culture" badly does not obligate one to provide an alternate blanket term to cover the same conceptual ground the other person was using "culture" for.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)You agree that the examples in the article linked in the OP are far to common place and are a problem?
You do NOT agree that them being common place and a problem constitutes rape culture and that calling them that is using a sledge hammer to cure a tumor... In addition, it is wrong to ask what it should be called instead... Do I have that right?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)Silent3
(15,148 posts)"Common" is a tricky word here. In one sense, murder is "common" because it's happening all the time, every day, hundreds (thousands the world over) a day. On the other hand, it's fortunately not so common that any of use will ever directly die from murder or experience the murder of a loved one.
Rape is almost universally considered one of the most heinous crimes, if not even more heinous than murder in some people's minds. If you want to conveniently depict someone as a "bad guy" in a story, rapist is right up there with murderer and drug dealer as straight-forward ways to get your audience to hate that character.
We certainly manage to romanticize some thieves in mainstream fiction (like those devising a clever bank heist), we even glorify some killers and assassins in mainstream fiction, but I have a very, very hard time trying to remember the last time someone was depicted as a hero and a rapist at the same time, or even as a later-redeemed-after-repenting character. You might see someone forgive a killer, but you'll hardly ever see someone forgive a rapist.
As far as I'm concerned, those rules wouldn't apply in anything I'd call a "rape culture". In anything worthy of the title "rape culture", there would be much more than the problems discussed in the OP, rape would have to be so accepted that if it wasn't openly lauded, you could at least pull off a "rapist with a heart of gold" character in mainstream fiction.
We've certainly have problems with rape and treatment of victims and sometimes blaming the victims or looking the other way, but perhaps all of those problems simply need to be dealt with on their own, and coming up with blanket terminology isn't necessary or even particularly helpful in solving the problems.
Perhaps coming up with divisive blanket terminology is even counterproductive.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)I guess a number one song is just not enough... Gotta have the movie...
I sometimes just can't believe what I read on DU.
Silent3
(15,148 posts)I brought up this fixation on the terminology "rape culture" on DU with my very liberal, Democratic-voting wife. She just thought it was weird, and didn't think it made sense either.
It's only in the microcosm of DU that it's a terrible sin and/or sign of "denial" or "enabling behavior" to not accept this weird terminology.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)Nor is it what I said or implied... I expect you knew that though.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)If you don't want to use the term "rape culture" yourself, then fine - it's not a phrase I would likely use in everyday life either. But you seem to have a problem even with other people choosing to use it.
Silent3
(15,148 posts)And I might comment on how much that didn't make sense too. So what?
What's the all-important distinction between voicing a difference of opinion and "seem(ing) to have a problem"?
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)is the correct term for what we have here, i.e. a serious, deep-seated societal problem with sexual violence?
Silent3
(15,148 posts)There are a lot of different problems here, perhaps they're best tackled individually, and maybe trying to lump them together as if they're all aspects of a single phenomenon just confuses the issue.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)from an early age to have empathy for others, especially those who differ by race, gender, etc. Of course there will always be a small percentage of sociopaths in the population, but I doubt the majority of rapists are actually true sociopaths - there's too damn many of them for that to be the case.
Silent3
(15,148 posts)...heard new music and a "number one song" was a really big deal. Now a number one song can easily be something that only a small portion of the population ever listens too.
Add to that that a lot of people barely pay attention to the lyrics of many songs, and if we're talking about "Blurred Lines" you can easily put the song's popularity down to insensitivity to how the lyrics could be taken if someone is bothering to follow them very closely, and while all of that could indicate some sort of problem, no, it hardly is equivalent to a joyous, enthusiastic cultural embrace of rape and rapists.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)It also shows your line about simply not liking the term for the bullshit it is. It is people like you that work so very hard to make things like this acceptable that enable and encourage rape culture.
Silent3
(15,148 posts)...with terminology like this. "Accept my framing and my language, or you're part of the problem!"
Thank you for showing us how the cudgel is used.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)You justified a song about rape being number one... That is some sick shit.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)watch many movies. but, we did have a post where people stated naming off the movies that had rape romanticized.
lots of movies were brought up
the thing. you are looking at the monster behind the bushes rape, only.
Demo_Chris
(6,234 posts)
madinmaryland
(64,931 posts)If that's what you want, then so be it.
I believe that things go far beyond the favourite phrase of the month on DU, and that being the general discrimination of women. All women are discriminated in one or another in ALL countries and societies in the world. That can include anything from less pay for the same work, less chances to advance in work due to family choices, to not being able to own property, to even being the property of her family and/or "husband".
I would hazard a guess that "rape culture" that you talk about, is a symptom of the overall discrimination of women. It also sounds like a racist comment geared towards a certain culture in America that also gets busted and sentence for far more time than any other culture for possession of crack cocaine.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)I regret that you will likely be attacked as an enabler of rape culture, but your argument is admirably reasonable and civil.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Hekate
(90,562 posts)Thanks
davidn3600
(6,342 posts)This is the one thing that drives me nuts...
You want to teach men that "no means no." Fine. Do it if it makes you feel better.
But to think this is going to stop rape...is asinine. It's like saying we are going to stop gun violence by teaching people to not shoot each other.
If only every crime in the world today can be solved as simply as telling people, "don't do it!"We'd be all living in peace and harmony.
There is absolutely nothing wrong in my opinion in teaching people self-defense skills and teaching them what to do in situations where they may encounter a violent attack. I am in no way saying that it's the victim's responsibility to prevent the attack. The reality is that there nuts out there. There are fucking assholes out there. And teaching people these skills could increase the chances of survival if they are ever faced with such reality.
It just drives me up the wall to suggest teaching people how to fight and how to defend themselves amounts to "victim-blaming." Give me a fucking break! Do you not understand the world we are living in?
Hekate
(90,562 posts)...instead of me. I'm agreeing with him because I recognize that putting all the focus on women's behavior ignores the actual cause of rape, ie the rapists themselves. Self defense classes? Fine, okay. But change the culture, first and foremost.
Ohio Joe
(21,727 posts)First off... Lets review what is actually in the OP:
"Rape culture is when we teach women how to not get raped, instead of teaching men not to rape."
I have no doubt it needs to be noted that this is not the only example in the OP but rather one of a number of examples... I'll also note that the examples in the OP are not meant to be all inclusive or any kind of definitive list but rather examples to get people started in thinking in the right direction.
OK... With all of that said, try giving that example another read... Go ahead, I'll wait...
...
...
Got it? Good. Now... Do you see the part where it has the word "instead"? It is a tricky word, I know, but it has a meaning, you can find it here:
in·stead
[in-sted] Show IPA
adverb
1.
as a substitute or replacement; in the place or stead of someone or something: We ordered tea but were served coffee instead.
2.
in preference; as a preferred or accepted alternative: The city has its pleasures, but she wished instead for the quiet of country life.
Idioms
3.
instead of, in place of; in lieu of: You can use milk instead of cream in this recipe.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/instead
Lets once again look at the example given to try and determine the actual meaning of what is being said:
"Rape culture is when we teach women how to not get raped, instead of teaching men not to rape."
So... When a victim of rape or sexual violence opens up to you and your response is 'Did you take a self defense class?', you are in fact blaming the victim and perpetuating rape culture.
When you say things like "You want to teach men that "no means no." Fine. Do it if it makes you feel better. But to think this is going to stop rape...is asinine." You are being completely dismissive of any solution except for your idea of 'women should be able to defend themselves' and when the only solution you believe will work is when the victim needs to do more to stop the crime... You are in fact, blaming the victim. You are not making a 'suggestion', you are putting it forth as the only solution and... Yes, you are blaming the victim as well as perpetuating rape culture.
Next up... I am certain this will also need to be stated clearly... Lets look at the example just one more time:
"Rape culture is when we teach women how to not get raped, instead of teaching men not to rape."
Note that nowhere in that example does it say that women should NOT learn self defense... In fact, I am not aware of anyone who says not to learn self defense... That would be stupid... Just as stupid as promoting self defense as the only solution to rape and sexual violence and dismissing anything else as 'asinine'.
Is that clearer? Do you get it now?
Zenlitened
(9,488 posts)...every time the topic comes up, a bunch of gaslighting goons will come parachuting in to say, "Stop talking about rape culture!"
And then get aggressive and abusive, derogatory and demeaning, when someone dares to contradict them.
They provide a valuable public service, I guess, by demonstrating what rape culture looks like.
But it sure gets old.
K&R.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)with that. But what makes them think they have the right to demand others not use the term?
Orrex
(63,172 posts)I'm not aware of anyone who has demanded that the term not be used. Are you? Link, please.
Instead, it has been repeatedly argued that the term should not be taken to be more important than the crime, nor should acceptance of the term serve as a purity test to determine whether someone hates rape with sufficent passion. Aside from one or two asshole who were recently (and rightly) PPR'ed, I don't think that anyone here thinks rape is a trivial or laughable matter.
Your mileage may vary. Other people's mileage may vary. I don't see why the embrace of the term should be of paramount importance.
William769
(55,144 posts)And anyone who says it isn't is full of shit!
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)Rec'ed.
chervilant
(8,267 posts)I find it interesting that I see 35 of 278 responses. My IL must include most of this forum's sexists and misogynists...
