Monsters vs. human beings

[Gravitycollapse]

I first read of this argument my freshman year of college but its simplicity has stuck with me.

To say someone is a monster is to release them from the grips of humanity. By doing so, he or she (or really it at that point) is also departed from ethical culpability. In other words, if we push someone into the realm of the monster, we as a society can no longer seek punishment for criminal activity because all of the previous justifications for punishment evaporate. It could be argued that we have no real obligation to treat monsters well. But it cannot be argued that treating them poorly is productive in any meaningful capacity.

To say someone is a human being is not to release them from the grip of humanity. To keep this person within the confines of what it means to be a member of our society is to also keep him or her under the rule of ethics and this means that he or she is ethically responsible for his or her actions. However, and this is the sticky part, by saying someone is a person, by keeping that person away from the realm of the monster, we are also saying that person deserves to be treated in an ethical manner. That person must be allowed to exercise all of the basic human rights from which everyone else benefits.


Either way, with a monster or a human being, cruelty is either unnecessary or reprehensible. It's up to us to decide exactly why we shouldn't be cruel but the end result is the same.

The latter part of this quote is most famous but I think we often overlook the importance of the former claim in Nietzsche's quote:

"He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you."

I bring this up because of the recent debate surrounding the death penalty.

[Warren DeMontague]

1. kurt vonnegut, mother night:

'We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.'

[Gravitycollapse]

2. Absolutely. Treating monsters, if such a thing exists, badly puts our own humanity at risk.

And that alone is justification to not be cruel.

[Warren DeMontague]

4. I can come up with several ethical arguments against the DP

Probably the foremost, to my mind, is the irrefutable fact that the justice system has profound systemic problems and all too often gets the wrong person.

In terms of 'cruelty'... I don't think life in prison is any kind of picnic. Given the numbers of attempted suicides, a good number of people in prison seem to think death is preferable, at least sometimes.

(I also think it's absurd that we will give pain-free exits to our sick and suffering pets, yet terminally ill people NOT convicted of any crime aren't allowed to choose the manner of their own passing, based upon the same sort of authoritarian logic which fills our prisons with potheads instead of murderers.)

I am generally against the DP although I do think in some cases - people who do terrible things to kids, for instance- arguments can be made that, the way one puts down a rabid animal as the humane thing to do.. Some people are broken beyond repair or redemption. And yes, I think it is hard for any aware, awake human not to frame those cases in terms of vengeance.


But my general position is that the dangerously violent ought to be separated permanently from society. Life in prison, no parole seems the proper response for heinous crimes.

[Gravitycollapse]

6. I agree the systemic prejudice in our justice system all but precludes capital punishment.

But I also think it's important to realize that it is not merely the failure of impartiality in our justice system that must keep us away from capital punishment.

I agree that those who pose a danger to others should be kept in custody until that danger subsides or he or she dies.

[Shivering Jemmy]

3. I have no need to punish

Punishment implies that justice exists or needs to. But justice is just another dead god. It was never real.

I am quite happy with simply removing threats to my person.

As for the abyss gazing into us, all we are is an abyss covered over with a lie of self.

[Gravitycollapse]

5. If meaningfulness is ultimately not objective, words like "lie" become less important.

The self may be illusory but the persuasiveness of this illusion is no less powerful for that fact.

[Mnemosyne]

7. Well said. nt