Fuck Ralph Nader

[SwampG8r]

and fuck everyone who drags him out to bash progressives with him.

[otherone]

1. I'm a liberal and I love him

but I am in the minority..

[SwampG8r]

2. i dont actually have anything against him

I object to him being used as a cudgel against liberals by people who if they had any political honesty would reregister as republicans

[otherone]

6. thanks for the reply

have a great day

[SwampG8r]

8. and i see the naderhater squad has put in its first appearance

replying to you

[GeorgeGist]

10. way to stand your ground.

And some call liberals 'wimps'.

[SwampG8r]

12. way to miss the point

and I think its the conservatives who call liberals wimps

[lostincalifornia]

13. Nader is not used by anyone. For Nader it is only about him, and no one else

[SwampG8r]

16. i disagree

he is used by right wing trolls to divide democrats.

[lostincalifornia]

18. ok, but if that is your position, then it not particularly complimentary of his intellect if he is

"being used"

[SwampG8r]

22. he is being used

by rightwingers to smear progressives
he has no say in it
so....not actually a comment on HIS intellect

[lostincalifornia]

42. I am going to disagree, and 2000 is my justification for that disagreement

[SwampG8r]

63. is he more responsible than

jeb bush Kathy harris and the scotus?
when a well planned coup is enacted by the governor of a state, in favor of his brother, and has the assistance of the election chief of the state,somehow nader is more to blame?

[pnwmom]

75. He himself tries to divide Democrats. What do you think he was doing with his call

for progressives and Libertarians to unite?

[Dawgs]

5. Even though he wants you to support a tea party republican?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024894287

[otherone]

7. I support Rand Paul in the GOP primaries - no one is better, imho

I encourage all my GOP friends to support Rand Paul in the GOP primaries.

As far as the general, Hillary Clinton will get my vote of course.

[riqster]

32. That is the big distinction. Primaries and Generals are different.

[otherone]

33. I think Rand Paul would be easy to beat in 2016

peace and low stress

[riqster]

34. If we don't have a contested primary in 2016, we could go that route.

[otherone]

37. HRC is gonna be hard to beat..

I personally don't think it can be done.

[riqster]

39. Most likely. But politics is weird.

[lostincalifornia]

43. I got it, and I think you are right, however, the republican machine will make sure that jeb or

someone like him is their candidate. It looks like their wonder boy chris christie is out

[pnwmom]

76. Nader likes Rand Paul for the general. He says he has potential,

that his problem is he isn't so good with people.

[NobodyHere]

81. He also likes Elizabeth Warren

Weird ain't it.

[Autumn]

3. Ralph Nader did a lot of good things.

I agree with what you say.

[SwampG8r]

4. glad you got it

I am sure a bogswarm will appear to cheer this on while not realizing the intention
nader is so far from relevant today that to bring him out to bash others with should only be seen as what it is
RIGHTWING TROLLERY!

[riqster]

11. I agree in part.

I would add, though, that there are a few Naderoids out there, and they deserve to be called out when encountered.

But for nearly all progressives, the comparison is inaccurate and inappropriate.

[lostincalifornia]

14. s far as I am concerned the one thing he did in 2000 undid every positive thing he did

[Autumn]

21. As far as I'm concerned, 2000 lays right at the feet of a fucking corrupt supreme court.

No where else.

[SwampG8r]

24. but blaming nader is

easier
jeb bush Kathy harris and the scotus did that
not nader
but he is a handy whipping boy for the rightwingers

[Autumn]

26. It's idiotic to blame Nader and give the ones who caused the bush installation a pass.

In fact, IMO it's worse than idiotic, it's republican cover. Jeb bush, Harris and the supreme court, all republicans who get a pass.

[frylock]

45. not to mention 300,000+ registered dems in FL that voted for bush

[PDittie]

59. BINGO

[riqster]

27. Nader was a factor. Only one of several, but he had an impact.

Bush and Harris, and the rest of the VRWC were much more directly culpable. But we cannot say, in a race that came down to several hundred votes, that any of the factors whose impact was measured in the thousands of votes made no difference.

In other words, it wasn't all Nader's fault. It wasn't even mostly Nader's fault. But he did have a part in the outcome.

[Niceguy1]

29. nader had nothing to do with it..

Nobody owns potential votes....

If anyone is to blame it is the voters who voted for him...

[riqster]

31. Interesting point. But I disagree.

It's a bit of a chicken-egg scenario, I guess. But I'd say if he hadn't run, then no one could have voted for him, so he bears some responsibility.

It isn't binary-"Nader had nothing to do with it" or "It's all Nader's fault". Math says he bears partial responsibility since several thousand people in Florida checked a box that Nader asked to be put on the ballot. And elections, at sevens and last, are mathematical beasties.

[HERVEPA]

36. He had everything to do with it. He's not there, then Gore is president.

Yeh, there were people involved in cheating Gore, but Nader, with his ego (and taking Rethuglican money) made it happen. Those denying that have their head as far in the sand (nice way of putting it) as the creationists and the climate change deniers.

[Comrade Grumpy]

54. And those 300,000 Florida Democrats who voted for Bush?

[Maedhros]

55. Forget it, Grumpy.

You can't reason someone OUT OF a position that they didn't reason themselves INTO.

[HERVEPA]

58. Nader could not control. He could control those voting for him.

What the fuck is so hard to understand about that?

[SwampG8r]

64. 300,000 registered florida democrats voted for bush

300 fucking thousand registered florida democrats voted for bush
nader means nothing compared to that number

[riqster]

40. The court had the opportunity to help steal the Oval Office because the margin was so slim.

And the actions of the Bushies, Harris, Nader et. al. were the reasons for that slim margin.

No slim margin, no ruling.

[Autumn]

46. Then maybe Democratic voters should be given something to vote for, instead of against

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4897003

Nader had every right to run. I am for any person from any party running for any office, it's their right to do so. Democrats in office or running for office don't want to step up and get Dems out to vote, it's their fault if they lose.

By the way, what Democrats spoke out against the theft in 2000?

I hope in 2016 there is a varied field of politicians running, it beats the fuck out of listening to two politicians running for president agreeing with each other.

[riqster]

47. Perhaps you should check the DU TOS.

This site is for people who want to elect Dems. Not those who support spoilers who enable Repub victories.

Seriously. It really says that.

[Autumn]

51. Seriously. You should read it too. There's some stuff in it you are ignoring.

It's not election season and I am not campaigning for anyone.

Vote for Democrats.
Winning elections is important — therefore, advocating in favor of Republican nominees or in favor of third-party spoiler candidates that could split the vote and throw an election to our conservative opponents is never permitted on Democratic Underground. But that does not mean that DU members are required to always be completely supportive of Democrats. During the ups-and-downs of politics and policy-making, it is perfectly normal to have mixed feelings about the Democratic officials we worked hard to help elect. When we are not in the heat of election season, members are permitted to post strong criticism or disappointment with our Democratic elected officials, or to express ambivalence about voting for them. In Democratic primaries, members may support whomever they choose. But when general election season begins, DU members must support Democratic nominees (EXCEPT in rare cases where were a non-Democrat is most likely to defeat the conservative alternative, or where there is no possibility of splitting the liberal vote and inadvertently throwing the election to the conservative alternative). For presidential contests, election season begins when both major-party nominees become clear. For non-presidential contests, election season begins on Labor Day. Everyone here on DU needs to work together to elect more Democrats and fewer Republicans to all levels of American government. If you are bashing, trashing, undermining, or depressing turnout for our candidates during election season, we'll assume you are rooting for the other side.

Every American citizen has a Constitutional right to run for President if you meet the qualifications, no matter what party you decide to run in. No getting around it. It's up to those politicians in those various parties to get that VOTE , that's just the way it works.

Right, we support Democrats here, I have never advocated or voted for anyone other than a Democrat, except for Bernie. I support him with my whole heart and soul. This is also a message board for discussion of all things political.

[riqster]

52. You just expressed support for Nader, who ran against Dems.

Make up your mind.

[Autumn]

53. Yeah I like Nader, I always have. He did a lot of good things starting around 40 years ago.

Can you prove to me he had no Constitutional right to run for president in 2000? He had that right. Your supreme court that you seem to support stepped in and appointed bush. Do you object to that and hate them?

It's a little to late now for me to support Nader and I worked for Gore. 2000 was soooo yesterday.

I hate those fuckers, they should have been impeached before bush was sworn in. I blame them, along with jeb and harris.

[riqster]

56. Here is one of those rare cases I spoke of. Typical Naderoid behavior.

First, it wasn't Nader's fault, it's because the Dems are too much like the Repubs.

Second, denial of the anti-Dem words and support for Repub enablers that they just uttered.

Third, an unjustified attack based on something the loyal Dem voter never said.

I've been dealing with this predictable behavior since 2000, and it hasn't changed except in detail.

And this is why Nader keeps being brought up and used as a cudgel, most often hitting those who are not Naderoids: because the Nader supporters like this one did not learn Thing One from the 2000 election, and would happily lead the lot of us down the same path as they advocated then.

Doing the same thing will lead to the same result. And anyone here who wants a 2000 redux in 2014 is not a friend to progressives or Democrats.

Autumn, thank you for providing an example of this insidious and ultimately destructive mindset. A very good evening to you.

[Autumn]

57. Good evening to you too. You are a good example also

A good example of a person who can't have a conversation without falling back on the personal attacks when you don't have anything else.

[SwampG8r]

69. does tos extend to events before the creation of DU?

I guess you had your coffee?

[riqster]

78. Good one!

I view those events as a partial reason for existence of DU. And as such, relevant.

[lostincalifornia]

44. In a way, but it was if you look at it objectively the real problem was all the Gore campaign needed

to do was call for a recount of the entire state, not just selected areas. The SC would have had an issue stopping that from occurring.

I do not believe the Gore campaign was counseled properly.

The other problem, Nader created just enough dissent among progressive to cause the election in certain states to be to close. In fact he went out of his way with inane implications that there was not any difference between both parties, which is pure garbage. Just taking the justices on the SC appointed by Democrats verses republicans tell you that doesn't hold water

[Autumn]

49. Enough Democrats agreed with Nader on that issue to make it close.

I think he was wrong, at that time. If he said it now I'm afraid a lot more Democrats would agree with him on the lack of differences between them.

[lostincalifornia]

50. It depends which differences you are talking about. In fact if someone compares issue by issue the

issues are still widely apart. What Nader alluded in that remark is hyperbole, and I believe it still is

[riqster]

9. Nader is not representative of progressives.

Progressives as a rule did not get money from the Bushistas during the 2000 campaign, for instance.

[SwampG8r]

15. no he isnt

so why is he dragged out to flog progressives with on such a regular basis?
he had his day but now is not relevant

[riqster]

19. In very rare cases where someone is talking in a Naderish fashion.

In those very rare cases, it is instructive to draw a parallel so as to learn from history.

But in almost every other instance, it is a flawed analogy.

[SwampG8r]

23. wow look at us actually

discussing stuff....and in a civil fashion!
am I on DU?

[riqster]

25. Well, I am still under-caffeinated this morning.

My more assholish personality will resurface later on, I am sure, after enough

[pnwmom]

77. He's putting himself out there now with a book telling progressives and Libertarians

to unite.

So people are responding.

[get the red out]

17. I believe Ralph Nader

is all about Ralph Nader.

[riqster]

20. That's how he got so rich.

By the bye, your screen name is awesome.

[get the red out]

28. Thank you!

[Estrella Fugaz]

30. Agree

Hes nuts.

[Tarheel_Dem]

35. From the "bogswarm" I agree, but not for the reasons you think.

[SwampG8r]

65. you havent the faintest idea what i think nt

[Tarheel_Dem]

66. Oh, but I have good idea.

[SwampG8r]

68. even a blind squirrel finds a nut every once in a while i suppose

while I have no doubts you have on occasion had an idea, I think the use of the word "good" to describe them may be inappropriate

[Tarheel_Dem]

70. Speaking of nuts, say hi to all the "squirrels" over at the Old tree place.

[SwampG8r]

72. now you have exposed yourself as having no idea at all

before, you perhaps had a glimmer of an idea
maybe more an idea of what an idea might possibly be
but now you have displayed your ignorance of any idea at all
to stay equal let me display my own ignorance
so you will feel more in common company
I am ignorant of what inference you intend to make
the only old tree place I know is under my carambola tree
it has become obvious you are too clumsy to work nuance
so why don't you say whatever vague guilt by association type of thing it is you seem to have an idea about?

[Tarheel_Dem]

73. I know you'd like to keep this shit thread going, but I'm out. C'ya. Mkay?

[SwampG8r]

74. i know you will remain busy

so many baseless allegations to make
so many aspersions to cast
good luck on your quest to find an idea
good night sweet prince/ss may the winds carry you to the tree you love so well

[Bobbie Jo]

38. Fuck Nader

and his flustered defenders.

[foo_bar]

41. I campaigned for him in 1992

He actually ran as a Democrat in the presidential primary (I think Mass was the only state where he made the ballot), but the campaign was fairly anemic considering there were about a dozen of us to rally the troops with our kindergarten quality arts 'n crafts supplies, but I think he took around 5% of the vote (having his name at the top of the ballot didn't hurt.) He gave great speeches that nobody heard, and Clinton seemed like the worst of the bunch in terms of centrist positioning (e.g., the death penalty, "Sister Souljah moment", "I have a plan to end welfare as we know it&quot , tho I would have been happy with Tsongas or Moonbeam or Harkin or even Bob Kerrey, but I was a little naive about the tastes of non-New England voters.

Anyway, I wouldn't fuck him, and I think he went off the rails a bit meddling in the affairs of party machinery instead of focusing on his core competency, which is building the sorts of grassroots organizations that might make a Nader-like candidacy plausible in 50 years, but I still think he's lovable in his quixotic Nadery way:

In 1988, Nader appeared on Sesame Street as "a person in your neighborhood." The verse of the song began "A consumer advocate is a person in your neighborhood." Nader's appearance on the show was memorable because it was the only time that the grammar of the last line of the song—"A person who you meet each day"—was questioned and changed in the show. Nader refused to sing a line which he deemed grammatically improper, so a compromise was reached such that Nader sang the last line solo, with the modified words: "A person whom you meet each day."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_Nader#Television_appearances

[libodem]

48. Yeah baby

FUCK NADER!

[question everything]

60. Huh? Do you care to explain?

I suppose I could search DU to find recent posts about Nader but why can't you explain your post?

[SwampG8r]

67. recent posts i have noticed dragging the smashed carcass

of nader out into the gutter for another round of bashing which turns into a bash of progressives in general
I am in florida and nader is less relevant today than he was election day 2000
in the huge list of things that can be said to have mattered most in the coup de bush nader aint on it
I got levels of nepotistic state politicians and relatives of George w
I got harris the lipsticked pig of an election supervisor
I got gores shitty lawyers and their bad advice.......
nader doesn't count in an equation where 300,thousand registered democrats vote for bush
300,000
yet somehow he is still dragged out for a round of beat the corpse and bait the progressives
im tired of it and I say fuck him and everyone who uses him to bash progressives

[Puzzledtraveller]

61. I like Ralph Nader

[Auntie Bush]

62. Fuck him for me too. I don't want to be near him or within eyesight.

[U4ikLefty]

71. Please wear a condom.

[SidDithers]

79. Fuck Nader, and those who try to minimize or excuse his role in 2000...nt

Sid

[craigmatic]

80. There's nothing wrong with Nader except he's wastin g energy running for president which he clearly

can't win. He should run for congress or governor instead so he could win and make a difference that way. If this was anything else other than politics we';d call it attention whoring or trolling.

[clg311]

82. Bill Clinton's bloody legacy:

Expanding Reagan's racist drug war, sanctions against Iraq that killed 400,000,bombing Serbia, radical deregulation of the financial sector, repealing Glass-Steagle, NAFTA etc is same as Republican policies except for Serbia. There is no reason Al Gore's record would be any different. He also selected a warmonger, Joe Lieberman as VP which was a big FU to the progressive wing of the democratic party. Ralph Nader was much more of a Democrat than DINO's that the Democratic party have put on the ballot since 1992.