Here's one thing terribly wrong about toll roads.

[trof]

We were traveling from a motel in Houston to a family reunion out in the boonies in Weimar, TX.

I loaded the address of the reunion into my GPS and it took me on a toll road.
I tried to get other routes, but eventually it brought me back to the toll road.
OK, fine. I'll pay the toll, BUT...

That particular toll road was only available to drivers who had purchased monthly or annual 'passes' that were electronically read by pass through sensors.
There was no way to pay by cash.

I sure as hell wasn't going to buy a monthly/yearly pass to use the damn thing once.

I tried to find a number for the highway department/toll authority.
No luck.
So I called the Texas Highway Patrol.

I was told that I could drive on the tollway and I'd just be sent a bill.
"No fine or anything." the trooper said.

So off we went.

Two weeks later I got a bill for the tolls AND A $15 "SURCHARGE" FOR EACH TIME WE USED IT!

Fuck toll roads, especially ones where you can't pay in cash.

[immoderate]

1. And a hearty fuck for GPSs that can't be set to avoid toll roads.

Jus' sayin'

--imm

[sendero]

63. My crappy little Garmin..

....Nuvis both have a setting for avoiding toll roads. It's a pain in the ass to get to (in fact the whole UI is pain in the ass) but it's there.

[Igel]

2. It's a GPS problem.

It didn't give the option of not using toll roads. Most people that use them here have EZ Pass. Or they don't use them. (I prefer not to pay and there's almost always a relatively painless way around them. On occasion there's a way but I don't want to take the time or effort to use it if I'm not familiar with the area.)

Most of them are put up by a county toll authority. It's not like in other states I've lived with where the road is there and gets expanded by funding from or an assist from the tolls.

[JoeyT]

5. Cash isn't an option at the ones I saw.

They literally have big signs at the onramps to tell you that cash/credit cards aren't accepted.

[Skittles]

7. deleting, because I misread!

gawd what a ripoff!

[JoeyT]

4. Houston was the first time I'd really dealt with toll roads to any real degree.

Got pretty much the same bill you did, too.

If we push this nonsense through, we can instantly kiss every construction worker and truck driver, and anyone else that's required to constantly travel long distances goodbye.

[Blanks]

6. Toll roads suck, but...

If we are going to encourage mass transit - it makes sense to have a policy whereby those that use mass transit are not subsidizing the people who do not.

Fuel taxes should be raised to the point where they pay for all highway construction and maintenance. In areas where mass transit is available - the people who live there should be financially encouraged to use it.

Roadway widenings and maintenance on heavily travelled roads are expensive because of the maintenance of traffic, the signage, and the purchase price of the adjoining real estate. If we put as much effort into expanding mass transit - we would save a lot on infrastructure costs over the next decade and beyond.

[AzDar]

9. It bears repeating: What makes anyone one think that these tolls will be used

for anything besides lining the pockets of the highest Corporate (domestic or foreign) bidder? Perhaps it's just me, but I am sick of being nickeled and dimed so that rich, greedy assholes can buy one more jet or Senator.

[Warpy]

39. It's a Bechtel Boondoggle that will funnel billions to that company

while creating a massive nuisance to travelers, especially long distance truckers.

NO TOLLS. This is a loser issue. They need to drop it now.

[woo me with science]

51. Amen. nt

[gopiscrap]

78. Exactly

[Glitterati]

10. What about areas where this is NO mass transit?

They do exist, BTW. Check out the mass transit situation in Atlanta and the Metro area.

Hell, in the neighboring county (Cobb) where they just decided to put the Braves stadium, there's no public transportation between Atlanta and the new stadium! For that matter, most of the residents IN the county can't take a bus to see the Braves in their OWN county.

[Ikonoklast]

16. What are you talking about? Mass transit is heavily subsidized by those who do not use it.

Without the federal, state fuel taxes, and state and local sales taxes subsidies most mass transit in this nation would fail if left to survive on paying customers alone.

Those subsidies run into the billions of dollars every year, and make up the bulk of the difference between the fares paid by those using mass transport and the actual cost of operation.

Typically in this nation, only 25 to 35% of the costs involved are covered by fares paid by those using mass transport.

That means that 65 to 75% of the total cost of operation is subsidized by taxpayers.


Those that use mass transport are subsidized by taxpayers, not the other way around.

[Android3.14]

28. You say that as if that's a bad thing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_transport#Financing
"Public transport allows transport at an economy of scale not available through private transport. Advocates of public transport claim that investing in mass transit will ultimately reduce the total transport cost for the public. Time saved can also be significant, as less cars can translate to less congestion, and faster speeds for remaining motorists. Transit-oriented development can both improve the usefulness and efficiency of the public transit system as well as result in increased business for commercial developments."

[AScott]

79. Quite right. My city has mass transit, and I haven't used it since I was a kid.

[etherealtruth]

18. What will the working poor do while the billions (if not trillions) of dollars ...

... are raised to provide the infrastructure for a mass transit system?

In metro Detroit we will have to start from ground zero ... absolutely NO mass transit system exists.

[JimDandy]

66. Is that because of the bankruptcy,

or did the city never have buses even before that?

[etherealtruth]

72. No, the Detroit area has never had a "real" mass transit system

My understanding is that the city has (at very best) a spotty unreliable bus system and the system has never been any better than that.

[LeftyMom]

21. "Financially encouraging" people to use transit systems that don't work is just a shakedown.

We have a transit system where I live.

It was terrible before the economic crash and cut back many hours and routes when it happened. Most of them haven't come back. Want to get to most neighborhoods after 6 or on a weekend? Good luck. Want to get where you're going on time? Good luck. Want to get there without getting sexually harassed, aggressively panhandled or without smelling like a bum's sock? Good luck.

I guess somebody has an hour or more to spare for the round trip to the grocery store, but I don't know who that person is.

[Johonny]

8. LA is putting that system on the car pool lanes

There is one set of road lanes for the rich and one the other side of the road one set of lanes for the poor. 21st century America at its finest.

[Mr.Bill]

11. The Golden Gate Bridge

in San Francisco stopped collecting tolls last year, I believe. If you don't have fast pass they shoot a photo of your license plate and mail you a bill. No surcharge, though. You can pay by mail, phone or online.

[Live and Learn]

60. The problem with this is that it gives states

an excuse to block photo blocker sprays or covers from license plates. Many police departments are automatically scanning every license plate in their city these days and in those states that have outlawed law enforcement from doing so, private companies have taken over.

CA already has a law blocking people from using sprays or covers which means Californians are susceptible being tracked even while at the grocery store. Ain't freedom great?

[Mr.Bill]

71. I agree with you,

but as far as giving states excuses to ban covers and sprays on license plates, that ship sailed years ago when they started installing red light cameras. One of many reasons I'm glad I left Silicon Valley many years ago and moved to a sparsely populated northern county. The cop cars in our local Sheriff's dept. don't even have radar or dash cams.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

12. I can hear a Republican now claiming you are a freeloader for expecting something for nothing.

[bvar22]

13. The other thing WRONG with Toll Roads:

*They are Regressive Taxes that puts a disproportionate burden on The POOR
and Lower Income Brackets.
I guess the PTB don't want the rabble to be able to travel freely around the country.

This IS a Market Based Solution more traditional for a Republican than a Democrat.


You will know them by their WORKS.

[NYC_SKP]

15. Agree. WTF with the support here for tolls?

One step closer to privatizing highways???

[neverforget]

22. It has to do with WHO is proposing it.

If it was Bush proposing it, this place would be in an uproar.

[Lizzie Poppet]

26. Precisely.

It would be interesting to cross-reference the posters supporting tolls with the posters who go ballistic when the Prez's pro-Wall Street actions or support of TPP are criticized. I am, however, far too busy to take the time for that.

And by "busy," I mean "lazy."

[djean111]

27. Bingo!

[neverforget]

31. I don't know where you got civil liberties and info

wars out of my post, but knock yourself out. Quit assigning your fears to others you know nothing about.
Confused me with someone else maybe?

I oppose them because we already pay gas taxes and this will be added on top of them. Hardly infowars bullshit.

[Agschmid]

33. Post not entirely directed at you...

[neverforget]

34. well then don't reply to me with stuff I didn't say or

believe. Thank you.

[Agschmid]

35. The issue has been resolved, you'll get through it.

[hobbit709]

65. The access road for the Sam Houston Tollway goes just about as fast and is free.

[LAGC]

23. "User fees" -- a distinctly right-wing Libertarian idea. (n/t)

[MindPilot]

37. Urbanites who believe that the cost of fixing the environment...

should be on the backs of working folk who were too shortsighted to get a job a couple blocks from home.

[loyalsister]

45. In my small city, I think the many people who work at low wage jobs can't afford cars

Public transit is the favored alternative for people to travel throughout the city independently without paying for cabs.
I don't know the numbers but those are the people I find myself talking to on the bus.

[jeff47]

38. What other viable alternative do you have?

Roads all across the country are in terrible disrepair. We need more money to fix those roads.

In a sane political environment, we'd just increase taxes, cut DoD spending, or something similar. We don't live in a sane political environment.

Gerrymandering means Republicans in the House do not fear Democrats. They feel the threat is from the Teabaggers. As a result, they will never vote to raise taxes or cut DoD in order to pay for road maintenance. Doing so means a Teabagger will come after them in the next primary, likely costing them their seat. But the roads need to be fixed now, not after 2022.

You're free to explain how you can get Republicans in the House to pass your alternative.

Meanwhile, if you know anyone who just couldn't be bothered to vote in 2010, please drag their sorry ass to the polls this year. We might manage to convince the House Republicans that they have more to fear from Democrats.

[BlindTiresias]

44. Then the right wing has truly won

They set the tempo, they determine the policies.

[jeff47]

46. No political battle is ever over.

The Republicans used the low turnout in 2010 to avoid dealing with the longer-term issues that are destroying them.

Those longer-term issues will still destroy them. Just not this year. Or 2016.

[BlindTiresias]

47. looks over to me

You just conceded that the interstate system must be further privatized.

[jeff47]

48. Nope. Try again.

First, there's no requirement that tolls be collected by private entities.

Second, there's no requirement that tolls be permanent.

Third, there's no requirement to use tolls at all. It's available in the states that need it, because Republicans are dropping the ball at the federal level.

Fourth, history does not end today. Tomorrow there will be new events and new battles.

Remember, at one time it was "segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever". Didn't quite turn out that way, did it?

[BlindTiresias]

49. Actually

Segregation still exists in a de facto sense and is becoming more pernicious than the previous de jure kind.

Furthermore, opening up the interstate to a toll expansion is opening it up to private entities as that is just the prevailing wisdom on how such things ought to be run regardless of its efficacy.

That we are really considering opening up the system to increased toll roads instead of wealth tax expansion just shows how dominant the right is. You now even have Democrats very enthusiastically arguing for a policy they should be entirely against. That sounds like a total victory to me.

[jeff47]

50. Again, nope.

Segregation still exists in a de facto sense and is becoming more pernicious than the previous de jure kind.

If you think it's as bad, you're an idiot.

Furthermore, opening up the interstate to a toll expansion is opening it up to private entities as that is just the prevailing wisdom on how such things ought to be run regardless of its efficacy.

Except not. There's a few private toll roads. The vast majority of toll systems are state-run.

That we are really considering opening up the system to increased toll roads instead of wealth tax expansion just shows how dominant the right is.

We fucked up in 2010. We failed to get out the vote. Republicans did not, and are currently able to exploit that.

However, this is a temporary state of affairs. And the single-digit popularity of Congress should tell you just haw long it will last without gerrymandering.

You are trying extremely hard to claim we are doomed. Fuck that defeatist bullshit. Whine elsewhere.

[BlindTiresias]

59. Heh

I don't need to claim we are doomed, the adherence to essentially right wing positions by a small but very powerful faction in the Democratic party does the work for me.

Btw if you think I am idiot regarding the new segregation: http://www.alternet.org/story/145553/the_new_racial_segregation_at_public_schools

Just because things are not explicitly on the books does not mean they have disappeared or are not even worse due to scope and being obscured from view by not being de jure.

And in regards to toll highways you need to do your research. While most historic toll highways are state run the recent toll systems are private: http://www.frontiergroup.org/reports/fg/private-roads-public-costs

[Aerows]

74. I think you are absolutely right

and I agree with you!

BTW - Welcome to DU

[Aerows]

69. Uh, yes, you did

Just as BlindTiresias said, when you concede to let the right dictate the issues and fail to complain about it because a Democrat is proposing something that is a right wing idea, you give in to the right wing.

I have absolutely no illusions that if a Republican was proposing this, the opposition to it would be vehement here on DU by nearly everyone, not just those that tend to oppose right wing ideas no matter who proposes them. As it stands, you can just look in threads like this and see who will support a personality over policy every single time.

When you put your faith in personality, you end up supporting right wing ideas and policies when the personality supports them.

You own it if you support it - it's as simple as that.

[jeff47]

86. No, complaining at the wrong people is not useful.

The people who fucked us over are the weakly-affiliated Democratic voters who just couldn't bother to vote in 2010.

Complaining that Democrats do not have a House majority today does not do shit about getting those people to realize that they fucked us all over. You might as well scream at the sidewalk.

Complaining that the Democrats can't pass bills through a House where they do not have a majority is slightly more useless than that.

And complaining that Democrats aren't implementing policies that can never pass Congress is slightly more useless than that.

However, that's where you are.

You are going to spend the next decade wailing in uselessness, because we didn't GOTV in 2010. Have fun. The rest of us would prefer to fix what we can causing a little damage as we can.

The only "who proposed it" aspect is coming from you. If my choice was normal highway spending or toll roads, I'd sure as hell not pick toll roads. But that choice is only available in your fantasies. Our choices are continuing the insufficient highway spending we have had for the last decade*, or toll roads. You're free to pick the former, but you will have to take ownership of the resulting sinkholes and bridge collapses.

*Why didn't Democrats spend more when they had the majority? They did. But it takes more than 2 years to undo that much neglect.

[bvar22]

67. Except that THIS Conservative proposal didn't come from the Republicans.

It came from the Leader of what passes for the Democratic Party.


[font color=firebrick][center]"There are forces within the Democratic Party who want us to sound like kinder, gentler Republicans.
I want a party that will STAND UP for Working Americans."
---Paul Wellstone [/font][/center] [center] [/font]
[font size=1]photo by bvar22
Shortly before Sen Wellstone was killed[/center][/font]

[HooptieWagon]

81. Gas taxes haven't been raised in 20 years...

...when gas was a little over $1/gal. Ever think maybe gasoline tax should be raised for highway maintainence, as it was intended to be?

[jeff47]

85. And you're welcome to explain how that passes the House. (nt)

[woo me with science]

53. It's PROPAGANDA.

This is not the grass roots talking. Corporate politicians are well-funded, and so is their messaging.

When the DLC connections to the Koch Bros. became well known, they just rebranded the infiltration
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=4165556

When you hear "Third Way", think INVESTMENT BANKERS
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024127432

GOP Donors and K Street Fuel Third Way’s Advice for the Democratic Party
http://www.democraticunderground.com/101680116

The Rightwing Koch Brothers fund the DLC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x498414

Same companies behind the GOP are behind the DLC
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1481121

[Aerows]

76. I can't fathom it either

It boggles my mind that anyone would support this.

[etherealtruth]

19. If one views the working poor as "collateral damage" in this scheme ....

... and believes "they" are worth sacrificing ... its a great idea.

If one cares about some of the frailest (financially) members of our society, one is disgusted by the burden it would place on those that can afford it least.

Somehow, I don't think those promoting this scheme are economically disadvantaged

[laundry_queen]

57. That's it exactly. nt

[adirondacker]

58. Bingo! Nicely stated! nt

[Aerows]

75. Well said n/t

[woo me with science]

52. Double Amen. nt

[herding cats]

14. Were you in a rental car, by chance?

Because I had a similar experience once when I accessed a toll road in a rental car. I believe it was Hertz, but I'm not sure. Their contract with some company called PlatePass(I think?) who in turn charged me some crazy amount, if not $15 it was close, to be billed for using the toll road, plus the price of the toll! It had something to do with my not buying some "extra" package the rental car company offered when I rented the car originally. I thought it would be included in the final price for just the cost of the toll, I was wrong! Instead I was later billed for both the toll and the surcharge.

[trof]

24. Nope, my own car.

Now I have a nice photo of the rear end and license plate.

[LeftyMom]

17. A few years ago my Dad got a bill in the mail for a toll violation in Orange County.

The only problems were that 1. Orange County is ten hours away by car 2. He hadn't been there in a decade and 3. The car that had supposedly committed the violation had burnt to slag several years prior in a fire.

45 freakin' minutes on the phone later somebody actually looked at the picture of the violator in question and realized that the red wagon in the picture was not my dad's late, lamented black sedan, and that the lady driving probably wasn't a sixty something year old man. And then they apologized by telling me that the picture was "very blurry" and apparently the rocket surgeon doing the data entry had just guessed at the plate number and sent out a bill nearly at random, which the person on the line did not sound especially surprised about. I got the impression that sending out bills in the hope that most people would just pay them rather than spend 45 minutes assuring somebody on the phone that they had no damn idea Orange County had toll roads and they certainly hadn't driven the length of the state to cruise them in a long-defunct car was part of the business plan.

So yeah, not a fan of automated tolls.

[HubertHeaver]

20. The tollway/freeway situation around Houston can be confusing.

Moving from East to West one avoids the tollway by staying on I-10 (which is much easier said than done). If you do get pushed onto Beltway 8 you do have the option of staying on the surface road and in the traffic until you get back to I-10. On the west side of Houston I-10 does have "Lexus Lanes" around Katy. Stay out of the far left lanes and you will be OK.

After checking Mapquest I think what happened to you is you were shunted onto the Westpark Tollway and that is just plain wrong. It is neither fastest nor shortest distance from the center of Houston.

[trof]

25. Bingo! It was Westpark.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

41. Westpark Tollway won't take cash, just EZ Pass. I've never used it.

When I visit Houston, I do use the beltway sometimes on the west side.

I didn't think I'd live long enough to see them widen I-10, but they did. The frontage road is bigger than some freeways in some places.

They had to put a curve in it just outside the loop at Antoine because they had to go around Woodlawn Cemetery.

[rickford66]

29. Ever hear of a map ?

[Brother Buzz]

42. Recent polls have shown a fifth of Americans can't locate the U.S. on a world map.

I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, uh, some, uh.....people out there in our nation don't have maps and, uh, I believe that our education like such as in South Africa and, uh, the Iraq, everywhere like such as, and, I believe that they should, our education over here in the U.S. should help the U.S., uh, or, uh, should help South Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries, so we will be able to build up our future (for our children).

[A HERETIC I AM]

56. ....

...... "for our children"




That never gets old.

[SheilaT]

55. My thought exactly.

Maybe we have to explain to the children what a map is.

Children, gather around me. This mysterious thing called "a map" is a large piece of paper, folded in a complicated way, and printed on it are the roads and the important places you need to know about to travel anywhere. No, it does not speak to you. Nor does it change whilest you look at it. It is a fixed view of the part of the world you are interested in. It will also tell you such amusing details as whether a road is a toll road or not.

I know, it's a quaint idea.

[callous taoboy]

62. How do you expect mapists to understand this?

DU has become rife with mapism, and I for one won't stand for it.

[SheilaT]

68. I'm having a word problem here.

Not THAT kind of word problem.

I've been thinking I'm a mapist, one who loves real maps. Isn't it the anti-mapists who worship St. Garmin and his ilk who haven't looked at a map in years?

I feel a new theology arising.

[callous taoboy]

61. You really expect me to unfold the thing, read it, fold it back up?

Listen, I have tweets to follow, photos of what I ate for breakfast to upload onto FB, then there are the texts, the texts, man... I mean, what world do you live in?

[trof]

82. Gee, no. What's that?

Try mapping out a route in the spaghetti junctions that make up Houston's surface streets. A city you've never driven in.
And then recognizing checkpoints in fast paced suicidal traffic.

Yeah, buster.
I've heard of a fucking map.
Maps worked great for me at 350 knots at 500' in an F-84.
Not so much in Houston on the ground.
Thanks for the help.

[mantis49]

83. That was my first thought, too.

I have several road maps in my car. When I take a long trip, I have a road atlas.

[Casandia]

32. And the 2nd thing terribly wrong is...

These roads are being bought up or leased to foreign companies!!

[link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_highways_in_the_United_States|

[cbayer]

36. My Magellan GPS and google maps both offer options for avoiding tolls.

When I mapped your route, I didn't see any tolls at all, so I'm assuming that these were somewhere around houston and near your home.

I tend to use both "avoid tolls" and "avoid highways" with my GPS, because that gets me into much more interesting areas, plus you can avoid chains and support local economies. There is always a way around tolls, if that is what you want to do.

But it generally does add time to the trip.

[Amaril]

40. I used the toll road almost exclusively..........

.....when I lived in South Florida. I lived in Palm Beach County and worked in Broward County (about a 20 mile commute), and the apartment I lived in was equidistant (almost to the tenth of a mile) from I95 and the Turnpike -- both of which were also about equidistant from the office I worked in. I95 -- during rush hour -- is a NIGHTMARE down there.......bumper-to-bumper traffic with frequent accidents that bring the usual crawl to a complete stand still. The Turnpike was still busy, but significantly better than I95. It cost me about $25 per month in tolls, but the savings to my stress / sanity level were immeasurable.

[dionysus]

43. wow, i've never even heard of a toll road without the ability to pay in cash...

[Rex]

54. ERMAGERD! UR complaining about toll roads! DU must be falling apart etc etc..

Not like the days it was blah blah blah...end of world, talking about stuff.

[sendero]

64. Toll Roads....

... ok, I have to weigh in here as I've put a bit of thought into this.

Gut reaction to toll roads? Hate them.

After more consideration, not so clear cut.

The basic argument? Government should build the roads we need using tax dollars. Sounds fair but is it? For example, in Dallas there is a famous toll road called Dallas North Parkway. A few years ago they extended it 15 miles or so north of Dallas into the far suburbs. This effort obviously cost an enormous amount of money, and yet it it actually benefits only a relative few. Why should people in South Dallas, who haven't had a new major thoroughfare in years, pay for the north suburb's road? With a toll road, the users pay. And if you don't want to pay you can take the service road the entire route, it will be slow because of traffic lights but you can get there, free.

Now the indefensible. These roads are owned by foreign companies. These companies would not have made these deals unless they were going to be almost guaranteed to be profitable. Govt, instead of selling out to corps could have issued bonds to pay for this and then 20 years from now when the construction costs are covered the 'profits' would accrue to the taxpayers.

But no, we have to privatize everything because that's how we roll.

[lumberjack_jeff]

70. Who "uses" the road?

Am I using the road when I commute or are the stockholders of my employer's company?

Clearly, since I'd stay home if attendance wasn't a condition of employment, it's the latter. The interstate highway system was rationalized based on two justifications: 1) economic development and 2) military necessity. Now that maintenance is required, capitalists and the military industrial complex are nowhere to be found.

[sendero]

73. I should have been more clear..

.. I'm not talking about the Interstates, which I fervently believe should remain toll free.

I'm talking about new construction to serve new suburbs.

[elleng]

77. I would have paid the tolls,

MAYBE one surcharge, surely NOT the others, with a polite letter explaining why, including what the Highway Patrol told you.

There are ways to deal with bureaucracy, because bureau'crats' are PEOPLE, like you and me. (I WAS one, I know.)

[Red Mountain]

84. Existing Interstate highways should remain free

Roads paid for with public funds should also be free.

Private investors can do what they want........but they shouldn't have the right of eminent domain to build new roads.