Bring the Guillotine Back to Death Row

[XemaSab]

If I were governor of a state that executed prisoners I'd declare a moratorium for my entire tenure. I wish that the United States would stop imposing the death penalty. I nevertheless find myself nodding along to Sonny Bunch's case for reintroducing the guillotine, a response to the botched execution of a death-row inmate in Oklahoma.

He argues that America has made its executions bloodless to protect the sensibilities of those who support the death penalty, with less humane killings as a result. (The electric chair. The gas chamber. Lethal injections. All have had horrific problems.)

Bunch writes:

The guillotine really seems to solve everyone’s problems: It was designed to deliver an efficient, quick, and painless death. It performs that task admirably. I understand the irony of a reactionary such as myself embracing the Terror’s preferred method of execution, but one must give credit where it’s due.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/05/the-case-for-bringing-back-the-guillotine/361569/

[Fred Sanders]

1. Are drugs more humane, or simply a more palatable way to kill, to the populace?

[Renew Deal]

2. More palatable

and less messy. The concept of the guillotine is unthinkable.

[pscot]

4. Beats drawing and quartering

[Renew Deal]

10. I agree

What about crucifixion?

[mindwalker_i]

14. But the guilotine is quicker and more humane to the person being killed

That, I think, would be a reason to use it. With the drugs (when they work), it's too clean, and it seems like people don't understand the gravity of what's being done. For the people watching, I don't want it to be clean, I want them to get the full effect of what they're part of, in terms of being in a society that kills people.

Just the other day, I looked up a video of using the electric chair (I was in a boring meeting). It's kinds of haunted me for a few days, and in general that's a good thing. I want people to be haunted. Especially given that people are found innocent after having gotten the chair.

[Nye Bevan]

16. I thought it was very ironic the other day how the curtain was drawn on the witness window

as soon as things started to go wrong.

Sure, let people witness the execution provided that it has the appearance of a clean, clinical procedure. But any deviation from this and nobody gets to look. I would think that it is more important for witnesses to see the proceedings when things take an unexpected turn.

[mindwalker_i]

27. Yes, that's it exactly

If we're going to do this, and I'm pretty sure we are, we should own it. Own it with all it's faults, flaws, pain, suffering, and mistakes. If this is who we're going to be, then let's not sugar coat it. It's like if we're going to have the government spy on all of us, don't call it the land of the free.

[Marblehead]

76. on the plus side

all of the organs would still be good to go... you could sell them on the black market, hell he could pay for his own execution, isn't that great.

[mindwalker_i]

84. Kind of like how the oil from Iraq paid for the war?

Well, someone should come out a-head from it.

[Nye Bevan]

3. The problem is that witnesses are needed, and witnesses tend to be squeamish.

A guillotine, or a bullet in the back of the head, are much more humane for the person being executed than an untrained person poking and hunting about for a vein for an hour or so and then injecting him with dubious, untested drugs that quite possibly will paralyze him before causing an agonizing death. However, many witnesses just could not handle seeing a decapitation or brains splattering around the execution chamber.

[CTyankee]

7. It certainly had a bracing effect on the people of Paris day after day when cartloads of nobles,

including a king and a queen, were beheaded and their heads caught in a basket. The French Revolution's solution to "income inequality."

[Nye Bevan]

15. Yes, until the main advocate of this (Robespierre) ended up being guillotined himself (nt)

[CTyankee]

17. This is what happens when such an injustice on people gets so severe they go on

killing sprees. It causes severe disruption of social order and chaos ensues. What a horror!

[L0oniX]

50. How about volunteer witnesses? Use web cams and a cell phone app to view.

I'm sure there are 100's of 1000's who would watch it if they were alone with their phone.

Death for death nullifies the law IMO.

[dembotoz]

5. perhaps the state does not want to look as savage as it really is

[L0oniX]

49. Heh ...well after all the drone mass killings, looking savage because of executions is moot.

[arely staircase]

81. oklahoma is killing people with drones? nt

[rrneck]

6. I think these other means are designed to be more palatable for the executioner.

A firing squad is still the best, but who wants to pull the trigger?

[Lancero]

9. Cops

[Renew Deal]

12. Don't they all pull the trigger?

But only one has a bullet.

[dionysus]

20. they all have bullets, but all bullets but one are blanks, so no one knows who fired the fatal shot.

[jmowreader]

39. No, only one round is a blank

[dionysus]

41. i stand corrected. thank you.

[rrneck]

25. I think only the rifle with a live round would kick. nt

[CTyankee]

13. Didyou ever see the movie "Paths of Glory." That firing squad execution is one of the most

horrifying moments in cinema...it is an excellent anti-war film...

[struggle4progress]

19. It's an excellent movie, about a horrific moment in WWI

[rrneck]

24. I'll put it on the list. Thanks! nt

[AnalystInParadise]

58. How is it anti-war?

I don't get that point at all from the film.

[CTyankee]

60. Here is the description from Wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paths_of_Glory

[Ruby the Liberal]

18. It was my understanding that there is only one bullet

and the rest are blanks - so blind draw at the gun locker. I could be wrong?

[rrneck]

23. That's what I always understood,

but a blank would not deliver any recoil, so whoever has a rifle that kicks would know it.

[petronius]

26. Other way around, I think - one blank and the rest loaded

In the last (I think) firing squad execution in the US (Ronnie Lee Gardner, in Utah) it was a wax bullet, to provide a more realistic recoil...

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

36. internationally that has fallen out of favor

Thailand and Vietnam for instance had a number of instances where the condemned didn't die immediately and watching somebody bleed to death is apparently rather upsetting even to the super manly-men who administer capital punishment.

Unless you're some sort of sociopath, calling on someone to shoot a defenseless and restrained person is fraught with potential problems.

[davidpdx]

90. I'll add for Korea since international stances were mentioned

Korea still has the death penalty, but never carries it out from what I have heard directly from Koreans. I'm not sure why, maybe there isn't the political will to repeal it.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

91. I think Korea used hanging, but a lot of countries are like that,

It is theoretically still on the books but nobody has been sentenced or sentences haven't been carried out in years.

[MillennialDem]

62. A firing squad is better than a guillotine? Number of people that

have survived multiple gunshot wounds = many.

Number of people that have survived multiple gunshot wounds for AWHILE in pain = buttloads.

Number of people that have survived beheading (not counting republicans, but that is more debraining than beheading) = 0.

[Charlos]

64. If the bullets are shot towards the brain

=painless.

[MillennialDem]

67. False. Gunshot wound to the brain is not instant (let alone guaranteed) death. Nor is it

necessarily painless. See Gabby Giffords among many other people. And then there is the factor of the marksman to consider and hope neither the bullet nor the gun fails. A guillotine is a simple device and very very unlikely to fail. Much less likely to have problems than a gun. And the design could be improved to make it better than it was in 18th century France.

[Charlos]

68. It's a squad, not just one man

And have you researched the amount of pain and duration of pain of multiple gunshots to the head vs. guillotine?

[MillennialDem]

69. I know it's a squad. I've seen plenty of WW2 firing squad videos that involve shooting the

survivors again. Heard of that case in Minnesota where the homeowner shot two intruders (he just got sentenced to life for this). The one was shot twice in the head already and he had to shoot her a third time in the head to kill her.

As for the guillotine, it is debatable how long it takes (limited research) but it's either as near to instant as can be (instant to 5 seconds) or under a minute. And it's fatal every single time.

Again, just use an improved guillotine design..... one that uses multiple blades to destroy the brain (besides severing the head).

[rrneck]

77. You missed the point.

The seemingly more humane means of killing someone has more to do with the sensibilities of the executioner than with the painlessness of the victim.

The more humane methods are designed to separate the executioner from the condemned as much as possible. Lethal injection, electrocution and poisonous gas don't have the same effect on the sensibilities of the executioner (or advocates of the death penalty) as pulling a lever or a trigger with the immediate physical trauma that goes along with it.

Any means of execution would be just fine if we rendered the condemned unconscious first. That way they will never feel a thing, but someone must still inflict massive physical trauma on them to kill them. It's a nasty unpleasant business and a job that nobody really wants.

[MillennialDem]

78. Ever been under anaesthesia? You feel your brain and senses turning to mush. Human

beings do not have an off switch. I've never considered it as a nice feeling.

And yes I know the more humane methods are for the executioner and society as a whole.

[rrneck]

79. Then why are we having this conversation? nt

[ladjf]

8. End capital punishment. nt

[Lancero]

11. Compared to what's in video games and movies...

Seeing a person getting their head removed is rather tame.

[BainsBane]

21. People's lives aren't video games

These are real human beings. The idea of a guillotine is barbaric. The whole death penalty is barbaric and demonstrates our nation's moral sickness.

[Lancero]

28. Perhaps.

But the same can be said of a nation that gets it's kicks from watching or acting out fantasies of death.

Personally, I find the idea of locking people to die in a cage to be barbaric as well. Realistically, both life in prison and the death penalty are barbaric. The only difference is that by locking people in a cage, you can both ease your conscious (Because hey, I'm letting this person live! Yay morality!&quot and extend the persons suffering. (Because now they are to spend the rest of their lives in a cage - Like a animal.).

Honestly, I'd rather let the sentenced decide. If they've been sentenced to life in prison, give them some rope and keep em in a isolated room for the night. Let them chose between a quick end, and decades in a cage.

[BainsBane]

37. So you think violent criminals should be left to roam free

to kill, rape, and maim at will?

[oldhippie]

54. Yeah, that's exactly what he said ...

NOT. Jeebus, but you have that tactic down pretty pat.

[Trajan]

80. there were implications in his statements

That left such an impression ...

Perhaps you can fill everybody in as to what to do with criminals who have committed rape murder kidnapping but were not sentenced to death ...

Fill us in ... and feel free to apologize to the above poster ...

[Scootaloo]

83. Agreed, the death penalty is barbaric

However as far as methods of execution go, the guillotine IS actually one of the most "humane." it instantly severs the brain from the body, using a weighted blade rather than say, the arm power of an executioner (sword and axe beheadings historically involved a lot of sawing and chopping.)

The condemned basically dies instantly, or so swiftly it might as well be instant. Compare to the electric chair, lethal injection, or especially the firing squad, which are all easily botched and can cause significant pain and suffering. Even relatively painless methods of killing, such as the gas chamber, can take a long time and can just as easily leave the condemned alive and suffering.

if we must kill - and I maintain we should not - then let it be the guillotine. end the condemned swiftly, painlessly (or as close to it as we can manage) and then let advocates of the death penalty man the mops, since they like it so much.

[BainsBane]

86. The fact we are even discussing this

Last edited Sat May 3, 2014, 09:49 PM - Edit history (1)

demonstrates how far removed we are from standards of morality as seen by the rest of the world. I've done some research on the death penalty in Brazil, which was abolished soon after the abolition of slavery in 1888. It was used primarily for slaves who killed their masters, and 19th century jurists saw it as a stain on the reputation of Brazil as a civilized nation. That was 140 yrs ago. The US still hasn't reached that level.

The guillotine was seen as more humane at the time of the French Revolution. Its association with the Reign of Terror is not easily forgotten. Besides, who wants to pick up the heads and clean up the blood? I see no way that SCOTUS would ever approve such a method as in keeping with the 8th Amendment (which in my view the death penalty itself violates.)

People who justify the death penalty by pointing to the atrocity of the crimes of the condemned miss the point. Our penal system and forms of punishment reflect who we are as a society. Ours is among the worst in the world--one of only a handful of countries that still uses the death penalty, the highest prison population in the world, and atrocious conditions within prisons. It can hardly be a surprise that we are among the most violent societies on earth (measured through the homicide rate and our state of perpetual war) when we as a people are comfortable with state-sanctioned death. Violence begets violence, and the US has become highly adept at perpetuating it.

(Someone will come along and say violent crime rates are down. That is result of demographic factors, not because the death penalty functions as a deterrent).

[Scootaloo]

89. I'm simply being the devil's advocate

I in no way shape or form support - much less advocate - the death penalty.

However, if it must stay, then my priority is going to be with the least amount of suffering possible being caused to the condemned. And I do think, that from a biological point of view, a swift and certain beheading is probably the best route to that.

Which really rather underlines why the concept of murdering criminals is barbaric, don't you think? if the most humane way to do it is hacking off a head, well, sounds like a good reason to abandon the practice entirely!

[nadinbrzezinski]

55. Yup, why all those videos made by jihadists are not shown on TV

And you tube plays a game of whack a mole.

[Prophet 451]

22. If we must have the death penalty

I only support the death penalty in cases where A) the perp is so dangerous that even the tiny possibility of them getting loose is too much and B) where we have absolute proof of guilt. Because of these conditions, I almost always object to the way teh DP is used in practice.

That said, if you have to have the death penalty (and the American public does support it), then you should use whatever method is most painless to the condemned. I don't know if that's the guilotine or a gunshot to the brain stem. The most humane method I've read of is to gradually fill teh chamber with pure nitorgen. They die from lack of oxygen but don't feel like suffocating because that's caused by too much CO2 in the bllodstream, rather than lack of oxygen. Add a little nitrous oxide and you'd even induce euphoria. Ideally, the condemned should be anesthetized before being wheeled into the chamber.

[TreasonousBastard]

29. The problem with the guillotine is the mess it makes...

blood shooting out all over the place, and birds diving down to drink it. And if there are any dogs in the area...

The eyes stare at you until brain death in a few minutes. The lips might move a little as if to speak...

[NightWatcher]

31. We are too civilized for that

Or so we like to think, with our neat, bloodless executions that take place in soundless rooms behind a pulled curtain.

If "society" wants a death penalty, make them stare it in the face and be forced to squeegee the blood from the town square.

[CTyankee]

61. I think the French just put that head in a basket and voila! Done!

It's easy, right?

[Historic NY]

85. There is video of executions using the good Dr's invention...

seconds and its over.

[MillennialDem]

63. You know those are just nerve pulses and not actual life? People lose

consciousness from being guillotined instantly or near instantly. There is lack of study on the subject (for obvious reasons) but blood pressure drop like that = lights out.

[TreasonousBastard]

70. Facial muscles, yes, but the optic nerve...

goes directly to the brain, so as long as there is consciousness, the victim will see things.

[MillennialDem]

74. Yes but the consciousness does not last "minutes". It probably lasts 0-15 seconds.

[geomon666]

30. Fuck that, bring back the Brazen Bull.

If we're going to insist on executing people and not give a shit how we do it, all bets are off. Let's start cooking people alive.

[Major Nikon]

33. Crucifiction was popular for over 1,000 years

The death penalty cheerleaders could get their jollies for as many as 3 full days.

[L0oniX]

48. Cannibals are people too!

[pipi_k]

52. I had never

heard of it until a few years ago. Looked it up...

The sheer brutality of it actually sickened me.

[dpbrown]

32. One of the more disturbing guillotine stories I've read talks of an experiment

The condemned man was a scientist and wanted to know how long the head could survive without being attached to the body. Before being beheaded, he arranged for one of his assistants to observe the killing. He told his assistant he would continue blinking his eyes after being beheaded for as long as he could. After the blade came down, he was recorded blinking for 15 seconds.

I would propose that fifteen seconds of contemplating how you will never take another breath would be a horrific way to die.

[L0oniX]

47. Gives being a pain in the neck a new meaning.

[snot]

34. If this isn't about sadism/vengeance, why don't we just give them a gigantic opiate OD?

[dionysus]

43. exactly. it's not rocket science to kill someone with drugs. huge benzo & opiate dose, it's over.

I can't support the DP myself because one innocent person getting executed is one too many, and it does happen.

[snot]

45. Agreed.

[krispos42]

35. My personal preference...

...would be a collar of plastic explosive around my neck.


And whatever's left... cremation, please.

[BainsBane]

38. Why not morphine?

I strongly oppose the death penalty. However, this week I've found myself wondering why they couldn't just give the condemned a lethal dose of morphine and let them drift off? If the dose isn't enough to kill the person, at least he won't be in pain, and then more could be administered.

[jmowreader]

40. Or just use a big cocktail of confiscated illegal drugs, like heroin and meth

Have someone hook the offender up and start pumping illegal drugs into him until his heart stops, then pump in a little more for good measure.

[Recursion]

42. I've always wondered that, too

It's a pretty reliable way to do it, AFAIK...

[MillennialDem]

65. I don't know, I don't really like the feeling of anaesthesia, what makes you think the

condemned is going to like being high as a kite before they go down? Not to mention ok we just shot you up, it'll be a couple minutes... No psychological terror involved there.

Guillotining is the quickest and most guaranteed way to do it. Other than having the condemned next to a gigantic bomb.

And we could even improve on the guillotine... multiple blades that cut the brain up. Or even a giant ingot that would just splatter the head like a watermellon.

Drug overdoses, gunshot wounds, etc are far more likely to get botched and/or not be (nearly) instant. I am anti death penalty, but if we're going to do it be as humane as possible.

[BainsBane]

71. No one is going to use the guillotine

The entire notion is absurd. I suggested morphine since it is painless.

[MillennialDem]

72. No one is going to use morphine either. The death penalty is going to remain the

current lethal injection or (hopefully) get shitcanned by the supreme court.

At least any time in the near future.

At this point we are discussing what *should* be done - under the constraint of the death penalty still being the law in 32 US states (thankfully I'm in one of the 18 that does not have it). If we're going to do it we should use a modified guillotine. Would that ever become law in the near future? No. But neither will giving the condemned a drug addict's dream.

[Shandris]

44. Although I know it isn't the intent, there is a downright eerie irony to the...

...fact that mob justice is becoming in vogue again, and someone is calling for the guillotine to take center stage again.

I know we like to pretend the 'doomed to repeat it' line only points to conservatives, but this is reality practically knocking us upside the head and saying "STOP!"

[L0oniX]

46. They banned pictures of military coffins being off loaded to keep people from getting upset...

about their wars. I think we should have to see what our votes and our laws get us.

[Shandris]

57. And I don't think banning pictures was right at all.

I don't think broadcasting them in a snarky 'haha this is what you get!' manner is good (and I'm -not- saying that was necessarily the intent behind showing them, but it is -occasionally- the intent), but it is preferable to -hiding- them. I don't believe anything that is done in the public's name should be hidden from the public, and if dealing with some people who want to play on emotions is the price of that knowledge, so be it.

But the whole point of my post is that mob justice + guillotine = a place in history we know as one of the most horrific ever. That we want to bring it back to 'teach' people a lesson -- and that IS the intent -- is not only 'doomed to repeat it' territory, it's downright barbaric.

FWIW, do bear in mind that I am not pro-DP in the first place; however, trying to sway people by 'forcing' them to see executions is disgusting. Now, I do think people should be allowed to view an execution on a small-scale (read: personal/home) setting for the same reason I think they should be able to view pictures of the arrival of our war dead -- nothing done in my name should be hidden from me.

[Bluenorthwest]

51. Can't bring it back as the US never used it. We did lots of hangings. Not beheadings.

Executions in the US and Canada were by hanging most of the time, 'bloodless' but brutal. France used theirs until 1977. They are not going to bring it back anymore than we will be initiating the use of the device.
A rather disgusting piece.

[pipi_k]

53. Actually, if the government

really wanted to be efficient about executions, I would suggest my mom's cooking.


They get a last meal, and drop dead right after. Mom's cooking could kill an elephant.

[rock]

56. I see that Larry is removed 969,437 times

But what is his ordinal denomination (first, second, third, etc.)? Readers want to know!

[pipi_k]

59. Oddly enough...

Since Larry is otherwise a fine conversationalist, he is being rather close-lipped about that...

[PeteSelman]

66. My argument exactly.

Trying to make executions more "humane" by using these drugs has only made them less so.

A quick, clean death from a single shot or a headsman's axe is certainly more efficient.
A modern mechanical guillotine would ensure that these botched executions never happen.

[spanone]

73. how bout let's stop playing god?

[avebury]

75. If this country wants to be in the death penalty business then it

should be forced to execute people in broad daylight on national tv and required viewing by all. Let everybody see it as it really is. Killing someone is not a pretty act and neither should it be. The government might find that the public's attitude towards the death penalty might change if they stopped the secrecy and presented is as it is - the taking of a life.

Living in Oklahoma I have no faith in this state's ability to investigate and prosecute a death penalty case in a legal manner to obtain any type of just conclusion. Just read John Grisham's book "The Innocent Man" and Mark Furhman's book "Death and Justice" on several Oklahoma County death penalty cases during the era of DA Bob Macy and police chemist Joyce Gilchrist.

[Iggo]

82. Kill! Kill! Kill!

[Owl]

87. Since this is a morbid thread, why not just drain blood until dead?

[IDemo]

88. Likely not painless

Hillman also goes on to point out that the so-called painless guillotine is likely anything but. He states that "death occurs due to separation of the brain and spinal cord, after transection of the surrounding tissues. This must cause acute and possibly severe pain." This is one of the reasons why the guillotine, and beheading in general, is no longer an accepted method of execution in many countries with capital punishment.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/10-brain-myths6.htm