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When did America meet the definition of a fascist state? (Original Post) grasswire May 2014 OP
When someone decided that hysteria was... TreasonousBastard May 2014 #1
America is not a fascist state. Stop being hyperbolic. Throd May 2014 #2
Passage of the "Patriot Act." 1000words May 2014 #3
When you are not allowed to post such a question. former9thward May 2014 #4
Not entirely true BlindTiresias May 2014 #21
When we started electing "leaders" rather than representatives. Tierra_y_Libertad May 2014 #5
Let me ask the driver of the black van that just picked me up off the street. JoePhilly May 2014 #6
Not this shit again...n/t Godhumor May 2014 #7
That depends on your definition. Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2014 #8
Nov. 22, 1963 Octafish May 2014 #9
I hear you. grasswire May 2014 #13
Perhaps when George H W Bush lied American into war on Iraq. Octafish May 2014 #22
Its been heading that way ever since 2000 election quinnox May 2014 #10
Never. nt hack89 May 2014 #11
I Do Not Think It Has, Sir The Magistrate May 2014 #12
Google "Operation Paperclip" warrprayer May 2014 #14
It was a dark and stormy night. randome May 2014 #15
We're not a fascist state yet. AverageJoe90 May 2014 #16
Wasn't aware it had. cherokeeprogressive May 2014 #17
When we are prevented from having this discussion. LanternWaste May 2014 #18
Well the way I UglyGreed May 2014 #24
This reminds me of cyberchondria. Tommy_Carcetti May 2014 #19
which disturbing signs have we not met yet? nt grasswire May 2014 #20
I think "Fascism" has ceased to be a useful descriptor of political systems. Maedhros May 2014 #23
good point nt grasswire May 2014 #26
Generally accepted fourteen signs of fascist society grasswire May 2014 #25
So forever SpartanDem May 2014 #29
Funny how "being arrested for speaking out against the government" is not on the list. Nye Bevan May 2014 #32
interesting that the list of components halts the conversation. grasswire May 2014 #27
Benghazi!!! GeorgeGist May 2014 #28
Bernard Gross published ''Friendly Fascism'' in 1980 Octafish May 2014 #30
OK, 'fess up. Did you get a speeding ticket yesterday? (nt) Nye Bevan May 2014 #31

BlindTiresias

(1,563 posts)
21. Not entirely true
Mon May 5, 2014, 05:04 PM
May 2014

Dissent was allowed within narrow confines in fascist states. Even Nazi Germany had a rich history of conventional (non communist) satire until the war.

What we should be looking for is "dissent only allowed within narrow confines", not literally "no dissent allowed at all". Very few states meet the standard of the latter, historically speaking.

JoePhilly

(27,787 posts)
6. Let me ask the driver of the black van that just picked me up off the street.
Mon May 5, 2014, 04:17 PM
May 2014

Oh wait ... its not a black government van, its an airport shuttle.

My bad.

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
8. That depends on your definition.
Mon May 5, 2014, 04:20 PM
May 2014

A lot of people are hung up on massive state-sanctioned violence against citizens, and proclaim that if we don't exactly mirror some previous fascist nation, we aren't one. Or that 'fascism' depends upon state capture of corporations, as opposed to our corporate capture of the government.

But a lot of the steps took place in the wake of '9/11'. The creation of 'Homeland Security'. The ramping up and militarization of police forces. We've always had the quashing of nonviolent protests with force, so that's not new. "Free Speech Zones" - aka you don't have free speech or the right to assemble unless the government tells you just where and when you can. The use of government power to preference the wealthy elite isn't new either, that's another one that's been around since the beginning. The incredible expansion of surveillance of the population is fairly new, though.

But in the new fascism, violence is more often retail rather than wholesale, with police almost always evading any responsibility for their horrific actions, while control is through the age old 'bread and circuses' and elections whose outcomes are different only in the degree to which most folks get screwed.

So the increase in the rate of slide into fascism happened on 9/12/2001.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
9. Nov. 22, 1963
Mon May 5, 2014, 04:25 PM
May 2014

The moment President John F. Kennedy was killed, the democratic republic was overturned by a coup d'etat; evidently organized at the highest levels of the national security state by those who direct and manage the Secret Government. For the most part, from Vietnam to Afghanistan, it's been "Money trumps peace" ever since.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
13. I hear you.
Mon May 5, 2014, 04:43 PM
May 2014

Perhaps my question should have been "When was America's slide toward a police state fully realized?"

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
22. Perhaps when George H W Bush lied American into war on Iraq.
Mon May 5, 2014, 05:05 PM
May 2014

In the lie-up to war, even the Kuwait ambassador's daughter was called to perjure before Congress.

The nice young person said she was a nurse at a Kuwaiti City hospital who saw the Iraqi soldiers take babies from their incubators and leave them on the cold, hard floor so they could take the healthcare war booty for Baghdad.



"If I wanted to lie, or if we wanted to lie, if we wanted to exaggerate, I wouldn't use my daughter to do so. I could easily buy other people to do it." -- Kuwait Ambassador

http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html

The public interest also was perked up when Poppy and the Pentagon came out and said the spy satellite photos showed Saddam massing his tanks next to our Saudi oil fields. What really got to the People in '90, though, was the claim Saddam had WMDs and was planning to nuke the USA.



The buy-partisan nature of money-trumps-peace was made clear when Madeleine Albright, at the time the nation's ambassador to the United Nations, was asked on 60 Minutes:

Lesley Stahl on U.S. sanctions against Iraq: We have heard that a half million children have died. I mean, that's more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright: [font color="red"]I think this is a very hard choice, but the price--we think the price is worth it.[/font color]

SOURCE: http://fair.org/extra-online-articles/we-think-the-price-is-worth-it/



Maybe it's just us, grasswire, but I think the price of all the oil in the world, and all the oil that's been sold, and all the oil that will be sold, cannot equal the value of one human life.

 

quinnox

(20,600 posts)
10. Its been heading that way ever since 2000 election
Mon May 5, 2014, 04:28 PM
May 2014

when Bush was selected to lead the new authoritarianism.

warrprayer

(4,734 posts)
14. Google "Operation Paperclip"
Mon May 5, 2014, 04:46 PM
May 2014

Wall Street and their secret army have been quietly working to undo the New Deal since F.D.R.'s death. Poppy bush threw that program into warp speed with Reagan.

 

randome

(34,845 posts)
15. It was a dark and stormy night.
Mon May 5, 2014, 04:49 PM
May 2014

The owls were cackling and the refrigerator made too much ice. I knew I hadn't much time before...
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Aspire to inspire.[/center][/font][hr]

 

AverageJoe90

(10,745 posts)
16. We're not a fascist state yet.
Mon May 5, 2014, 04:53 PM
May 2014

But there is definitely some reason to be concerned; the fact that crooked Wall Street bankers haven't yet all been prosecuted en masse, the continued rising of an ever more desperate Tea Party movement, etc.....all reasons to be vigilant.

 

LanternWaste

(37,748 posts)
18. When we are prevented from having this discussion.
Mon May 5, 2014, 04:55 PM
May 2014

"At what point?"

When we are prevented from having this discussion.

UglyGreed

(7,661 posts)
24. Well the way I
Mon May 5, 2014, 05:17 PM
May 2014

see it they would not want to prevent such discussions, but keep an eye on them....... reminds me of the NSA.

Tommy_Carcetti

(43,173 posts)
19. This reminds me of cyberchondria.
Mon May 5, 2014, 04:57 PM
May 2014

Where people Googling medical conditions work themselves into frenzies because they might exhibit some of the symptoms of a disease, ignoring the symptoms they probably don't have.

Have a stomach ache? So do people with stomach cancer. Ergo, you must have stomach cancer!

We share some (but not all) of the disturbing signs of a fascist society. However, that alone does not make us fascist.

 

Maedhros

(10,007 posts)
23. I think "Fascism" has ceased to be a useful descriptor of political systems.
Mon May 5, 2014, 05:15 PM
May 2014

One says "Fascism" and the term immediately invokes visions of death camps and world conquest. Thus it is easy for people to claim that application of the term to American politics is hyperbolic.

Modern Fascists have learned to be much more low profile in their approach, so as to maintain a veneer of respectability. No more mass roundups of political dissidents or outright land-grabs. Showy Authoritarianism is for the Mussolinis, Hitlers and Stalins of the past. Inverted Authoritarianism is the stealth approach, and it has proven much more effective: all the power concentration without the public outcry.

grasswire

(50,130 posts)
25. Generally accepted fourteen signs of fascist society
Mon May 5, 2014, 05:18 PM
May 2014

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism.

2. Disdain for importance of human rights.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause.

4. Supremacy of the military/avid nationalism.

5. Rampant sexism.

6. A controlled mass media.

7. Obsession with national security.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together.

9. Power of corporations protected.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts.

12. Obsession with crime and punishment.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption.

14. Fraudulent elections.

Amplification of all those points available at http://www.examiner.com/article/14-defining-characteristics-of-fascism-the-u-s-2012

Nye Bevan

(25,406 posts)
32. Funny how "being arrested for speaking out against the government" is not on the list.
Tue May 6, 2014, 08:38 AM
May 2014

But "rampant sexism" is.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
30. Bernard Gross published ''Friendly Fascism'' in 1980
Tue May 6, 2014, 08:19 AM
May 2014

The professor served FDR and the New Deal Democrats and is remembered today for his work to reduce poverty. Among his accomplishments, he helped author the Humphrey-Hawkins Full Employment Act. Later he taught at CUNY and Wayne State University in Detroit, where he founded the Center for Urban Studies.

Friendly Fascism

The New Face of Power in America


by Bertram Gross
South End Press, 1980, paper

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Friendly_Fascism_BGross.html



INTRO EXCERPT...

Friendly fascism portrays two conflicting trends in the United States and other countries of the so-called "free world."

The first is a slow and powerful drift toward greater concentration of power and wealth in a repressive Big Business-Big Government partnership. This drift leads down the road toward a new and subtly manipulative form of corporatist serfdom. The phrase "friendly fascism" helps distinguish this possible future from the patently vicious corporatism of classic fascism in the past of Germany, Italy and Japan. It also contrasts with the friendly present of the dependent fascisms propped up by the U.S. government in El Salvador, Haiti, Argentina, Chile, South Korea, the Philippines and elsewhere.

The other is a slower and less powerful tendency for individuals and groups to seek greater participation in decisions affecting themselves and others. This trend goes beyond mere reaction to authoritarianism. It transcends the activities of progressive groups or movements and their use of formal democratic machinery. It is nourished by establishment promises-too often rendered false-of more human rights, civil rights and civil liberties. It is embodied in larger values of community, sharing, cooperation, service to others and basic morality as contrasted with crass materialism and dog-eat-dog competition. It affects power relations in the household, workplace, community, school, church, synagogue, and even the labyrinths of private and public bureaucracies. It could lead toward a truer democracy-and for this reason is bitterly fought...

These contradictory trends are woven fine into the fabric of highly industrialized capitalism. The unfolding logic of friendly fascist corporatism is rooted in "capitalist society's transnational growth and the groping responses to mounting crises in a dwindling capitalist world". Mind management and sophisticated repression become more attractive to would-be oligarchs when too many people try to convert democratic promises into reality. On the other hand, the alternative logic of true democracy is rooted in "humankind's long history of resistance to unjustified privilege" and in spontaneous or organized "reaction (other than fright or apathy) to concentrated power...and inequality, injustice or coercion".

A few years ago too many people closed their eyes to the indicators of the first tendency.

But events soon began to change perceptions.

The Ku Klux Klan and American Nazis crept out of the woodwork. An immoral minority of demagogues took to the airwaves. "Let me tell you something about the character of God," orated Jim Robison at a televised meeting personally endorsed by candidate Ronald Reagan. "If necessary, God would raise up a tyrant, a man who may not have the best ethics, to protect the freedom interests of the ethical and the godly." To protect Western oil companies, candidate Jimmy Carter proclaimed presidential willingness to send American troops into the Persian Gulf. Rosalyn Carter went further by telling an lowa campaign audience: "Jimmy is not afraid to declare war." Carter then proved himself unafraid to expand unemployment, presumably as an inflation cure, thereby reneging on his party's past full employment declarations.

CONTINUED...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/RiseFall_Friend_Fascism_FF.html



The good professor painted an accurate picture of what was to come.



James Madison

EXCERPT...

Despite the sharp differences from classic fascism, there are also some basic similarities. In each, a powerful oligarchy operates outside of, as well as through, the state. Each subverts constitutional government. Each suppresses rising demands for wider participation in decision making, the enforcement and enlargement of human rights, and genuine democracy. Each uses informational control and ideological flimflam to get lower and middle-class support for plans to expand the capital and power of the oligarchy and provide suitable rewards for political, professional, scientific, and cultural supporters.

A major difference is that under friendly fascism Big Government would do less pillaging of, and more pillaging for, Big Business. With much more integration than ever before among transnational corporations, Big Business would run less risk of control by any one state and enjoy more subservience by many states. In turn, stronger government support of transnational corporations, such as the large group of American companies with major holdings in South Africa, requires the active fostering of all latent conflicts among those segments of the American population that may object to this kind of foreign venture. It requires an Establishment with lower levels so extensive that few people or groups can attain significant power outside it, so flexible that many (perhaps most) dissenters and would-be revolutionaries can be incorporated within it. Above all, friendly fascism in any First World country today would \ use sophisticated control technologies far beyond the ken of the classic fascists.

p177
Although American hegemony can scarcely return in its Truman-Eisenhower-Kennedy-Johnson form, this does not necessarily signify the end of the American Century. Nor does communist and socialist advance on some fronts mark American and capitalist retreat on all fronts. There are unmistakable tendencies toward a rather thoroughgoing reconstruction of the entire "Free World." Robert Osgood sees a transitional period of "limited readjustment" and "retrenchment without disengagement," after which America could establish a "more enduring rationale of global influence." Looking at foreign policy under the Nixon administration, Robert W. Tucker sees no intention to "dismantle the empire" but rather a continued commitment to the view that "America must still remain the principal guarantor of a global order now openly and without equivocation identified with the status quo." He describes America as a "settled imperial power shorn of much of the former exuberance." George Liska looks forward to a future in which Americans, having become more mature in the handling of global affairs, will at last be the leaders of a true empire.

CONTINUED...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/Specter_FriendlyFascism_FF.html



Cough newworldorder.
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