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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsWill the Government Listen? Ukraine: Lies and Realities - CounterPunch
by ANDRE VLTCHEK
Kiev.
One single moment, one wrong move, one word, and two countries, two allies, two almost identical cultures, can easily dash at each others throats Different words, different gestures, and they can also fall into each others arms, instantly. Is there going to be a war, a battle or an embrace? Is there going to be an insult or reconciliatory words?
Ironically, there is no self-grown dispute between two nations. The seeds of mistrust, and possible tragedy, are sown by the outsiders, and nurtured by their malignant propaganda.
Now Maidan, the main square of Kiev where the revolution took place, is scarred, burned down, eerie.
Right-wingers, ultra-nationalists, young and not so young men with shaved heads, are watching pedestrians with confused, often provocative eyes.
Many of them are now controlling the traffic and, like in Thailand where the right-wingers also recently protested, are deciding who can pass and who cannot. The law is clearly and patently in their hands, or more precisely, in Maidan area, they are the law.
Religious symbols are suddenly everywhere, while monuments to heroes of the revolution and the WWII are desecrated.
Continued: http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/11/ukraine-lies-and-realities/
JI7
(89,244 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)been around for a while and used to be read often here.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Either way their question speaks volumes. Next up..... "Mother Jones ?"
dionysus
(26,467 posts)The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Is one more leftwing, or establishment than the other. Do tell.
struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)It promotes a certain snickering cynicism, without providing much by way of usable analysis
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Last edited Mon May 12, 2014, 01:22 AM - Edit history (1)
I guess the debate is...is left wing = liberal.
"certain snickering cynicism" - cynicism in this world? A world undergoing class warfare, the disemboweling of the middle class, unending war and a national security state?
struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)I regard "Israel Shamir" as a anti-semite, holocaust-denier, and friend of dictatorships. He shows up regularly as a Counterpunch contributor. Various rightwingers like "Israel Shamir" too. IMO they can all stick their heads up their wumps and trot down the road
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)But he does not like Democrats, that is the important thing....
Alexander Cockburn, co-founder of the rag, was the son of a man Orwell described as the most dishonest journalist in England....
struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)Where the hard left and the hard right meet and bump bottoms, having backed so far as can be done around the political circle in their own respective directions that they have little choice.
"Where the near-criminal and the quasi-legal meet and do lunch."
struggle4progress
(118,273 posts)to support an ideological view, regardless of any details of the particular view
Once one chooses to believe the world and its people can be understood on the basis of some formulaic assumption, one needs a method for dismissing any evidence contrary to whatever one "knows" a priori to be "true" -- and a species of sneering cynicism is convenient for that purpose: snickering at another's purported naïveté never requires any deflation of one's own ego
So an author, who shows any talent for snickering, may find approving readers across a wide political spectrum, because all may interpret the sneer as proof the author stands on their particular side
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)Thomm Hartmann (oh yes, he is a commie now to some),
Nation Magazine,
Real News,
truthout,
Reader Supported News,
Anti-War,
FireDogLake,
MotherJones,
aljazeera
smirkingchimp.com
Fair.org
These are just a few. There is indeed a debate going on in the liberal sphere. Though folks would have us believe it is all about Putin.
MattSh
(3,714 posts)It would be a whole lot shorter and easier to maintain. It might look like this...
1. US Corporate McPravda
2. US Government Agencies
See? Short and easy to maintain!
newthinking
(3,982 posts)which are approved and which not?
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)What we need are for a few self appointed commissars to review all OP's before they are posted to see if they are consistent with the talking points du jour. That way all of DU can be a "safe haven".
The problem with a short list of approved sites is they would need to be updated on a daily basis.
Any one of them might fall out of favor article by article.
I jest.
The jury system works very well, creates many engaging threads, keeps this place lively and provides skinner the page views he needs to pay the bills. Like any jury system it has winners and losers.
EX500rider
(10,835 posts)EX500rider
(10,835 posts)Purveyor
(29,876 posts)ProSense
(116,464 posts)Just because most of the articles seem to attack from the left, it's mostly in opposition to Democrats.
It also publishes articles by RW libertarians. It does a lot of conspiracy theories. Many of it's authors are hostile toward Democrats or anyone aligned with Democrats, including Bernie Sanders.
Counterpuke was the primary source for attacks on Gore and the BS about there is no difference between Gore and Bush.
April 2014:
The Myth of the Pro-Labor Democrat
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/21/the-myth-of-the-pro-labor-democrat/
So What If Democrats Lose the Senate?
http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/04/so-what-if-democrats-lose-the-senate/
The site's primary goals seems to be to sabotage and tear down the Democratic Party, even if it means aligning with RW libertarians.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Common Dreams
Press TV
Slate
Democracy Now
Thomm Hartmann (oh yes, he is a commie now to some),
Nation Magazine,
Real News,
truthout,
Reader Supported News,
Anti-War,
FireDogLake,
MotherJones,
aljazeera
smirkingchimp.com
Fair.org
And all of the University Professors a number of them have interviewed.
They have all had articles and I have used them for OPs
Please let me know who I can quote and who not so I don't run into trouble here> I am really puzzled, as I had thought a number of those were fairly liberal sites... well they seemed to have been at one time?
rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Posters here are smart enough to make their own choices. But thanks.
dionysus
(26,467 posts)rhett o rick
(55,981 posts)Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)'Was it better before? I ask.
Her face brightens up. She stops speaking for a while, searching her memory, recalling long bygone days. Then she answers: How can you even ask? During the Soviet Union everything was better, much better! We all had jobs and there were decent salaries, pensions
We had all that we needed.'
newthinking
(3,982 posts)I once went to a church where the pastor seemed to think that only he could understand God and get the proper interpretation from the Bible.
I have learned since that many people are perfectly capable of reading and forming opinions. They are free to read what was posted.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)Sometimes, those comments point out that what you have posted is obvious swill....
dionysus
(26,467 posts)polly7
(20,582 posts)"This one, this village, is called Efremovka, and the name of a grandmother is Lyubov Mikhailovna." The grandmother he was speaking to answered a question - you claim to be able to speak for her. Do YOU live in Ukraine? Have you secret sources that are telling you Ukrainian people are lying about what they remember of their past?
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)I have read, down the years, a great deal of East Bloc reportage, and this one reads like the classics of half a century ago.
polly7
(20,582 posts)in front of our eyes and be open-minded enough to read and judge 'everything' before coming to our own conclusions. Thank goodness.
It's a great article, you should read all of it.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)always seem to wind up swallowing hook, line, and sinker the propagandas put out by one side of the matter, and that the side openly moving to annex a good portion of a neighboring country....
polly7
(20,582 posts)We're not stupid here, don't forget ..... we saw it all pre-Iraq and Libya.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)But it is clear enough you swallow the propaganda of one side here, and that the side that is openly moving to annex portions of a neighboring country. You may call supporting that being an anti-imperialist or an opponent of invading other countries or whatever else you please, but you cannot really expect to be taken seriously when you do....
polly7
(20,582 posts)or anything else (I really don't care either way). What's clear here is that you support a right-wing coup that guarantees brutal austerity for a whole nation, many of whom didn't have the chance to vote for or against this, and the inevitable violence against these people when they protest.
I don't find that an enviable position ....... in fact, it churns my stomach. Your hatred of Russia is obvious, you've made it very clear .... - but your hated Russia isn't beating and burning ordinary people fearful of and in opposition to their new, unelected right-wing, fascist leaders - that's your beloved right-wingers doing that.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)I do oppose re-constitution of the old Russian empire, as it was under both Czars and Soviets. i recognize that Russia is presently ruled by a fascist, who learned his trade in the state security services of the old empire.
The rest of this just noise, and not worth serious engagement.
polly7
(20,582 posts)I know, right? ........ it's difficult defending what you're cheering for, for the people of Ukraine who don't want to live under it and have had no say. I can see why you'd run from that.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)I oppose the annexation of eastern Ukraine by Russia, and the spreading of distortions and lies in service of it by people here.
Economically Ukraine is a basket case, and largely because of thievery by its rich and its rulers. Nothing is going to change that any time soon, nor did anything which transpired in Kiev alter it much.
polly7
(20,582 posts)without the fear of violence and brutality.
What you oppose has nothing to do with what these people may or may not want - you're not in their situation, are you???
And really, if you're so in favour of the inevitable austerity soon to be forced upon them, why pretend to care what state Ukraine was in economically, when they're only going to suffer more?
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)An exercise in people being determined to decide their own fate, without fear of violence and brutality, and indeed, overcoming violence and brutality to do so.
polly7
(20,582 posts)They couldn't wait to have an election to get rid of Yanukovich, because there was no assurance their people and the IMF would win. Ukrainians who are stating today they don't want to be under the thumb of the IMF probably wouldn't have voted for their way ..... yet now they have no choice, and are subject to brutality for protesting it.
Nice try though.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)For that is exactly what happened in Kiev a few weeks ago --- people rose up to decide for themselves, without fear of violence, and prevailed, in the face of violence.
You cannot give any coherent reason why you denounce the one and celebrate the other. You speculate about reasons concerning the ouster of Yanukovich, but you cannot deny the certain presence of Russian influence in the secessionist rising in the east.
I expect you will swallow whole the figures claimed for turn-out and tally in the 'referendum' today by its self-appointed promoters, just as you have so much else in this....
polly7
(20,582 posts)no sides to choose in the coup - those who don't align themselves with the IMF had no say whatsoever. Which is exactly why there could have been no election. You can't give a coherent reason for not having one.
Those who planned, implemented and cheered on this coup pretty much handed Crimea to Russia on a silver platter. Russia didn't have to lift a finger, the people of Crimea decided their own fate based on their fear and distrust of new 'leaders' who chose as one of their first moves to ban the Russian language.
I'll 'swallow' whatever figures I decide make sense.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)What you decide makes sense bears no relation to fact or reason.
polly7
(20,582 posts)April 11, 2011 A Kiev Post article entitled Ukraine Hopes to Get $1.5 Billion from IMF in June states that the loan is dependent on pension cuts while maintaining cooperation with the IMF, since it influences the countrys interaction with other international financial institutions and private investors and further that the attraction of $850 million from the World Bank in 2011, depended on cooperation with the IMF. Well, that about says it all if Ukraine played ball. then the loan money would pour in.
November 21, 2013 fast forward to the EU summit in Lithuania when President Yanuyovch embarrassed the European Union by rejecting its Agreement in favor of joining Russias Common Union with other Commonwealth Independent States.
November 27, 2013 it was not until February 23, 2014 when Anonymous Ukraine hackers released a series of emails from a Lithuanian government advisor to opposition leader and former boxer Vitaly Klitschko regarding plans to destabilize Ukraine; for example:
Our American friends promise to pay a visit in the coming days, we may even see Nuland or someone from the Congress. 12/7/2013
The Anti-Empire Report #128
By William Blum Published May 9th, 2014
Excerpts: In February of this year, US State Department officials, undiplomatically, joined anti-government protesters in the capital city of Kiev, handing out encouragement and food, from which emanated the infamous leaked audio tape between the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt, and the State Departments Victoria Nuland, former US ambassador to NATO and former State Department spokesperson for Hillary Clinton. Their conversation dealt with who should be running the new Ukraine government after the government of Viktor Yanukovich was overthrown; their most favored for this position being one Arseniy Yatsenuk.
My dear, and recently departed, Washington friend, John Judge, liked to say that if you want to call him a conspiracy theorist you have to call others *coincidence theorists. Thus it was by the most remarkable of coincidences that Arseniy Yatsenuk did indeed become the new prime minister. He could very soon be found in private meetings and public press conferences with the president of the United States and the Secretary-General of NATO, as well as meeting with the soon-to-be new owners of Ukraine, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, preparing to impose their standard financial shock therapy. The current protestors in Ukraine dont need PHDs in economics to know what this portends. They know about the impoverishment of Greece, Spain, et al. They also despise the new regime for its overthrow of their democratically-elected government, whatever its shortcomings. But the American media obscures these motivations by almost always referring to them simply as pro-Russian.
An exception, albeit rather unemphasized, was the April 17 Washington Post which reported from Donetsk that many of the eastern Ukrainians whom the author interviewed said the unrest in their region was driven by fear of economic hardship and the IMF austerity plan that will make their lives even harder: At a most dangerous and delicate time, just as it battles Moscow for hearts and minds across the east, the pro-Western government is set to initiate a shock therapy of economic measures to meet the demands of an emergency bailout from the International Monetary Fund.
Arseniy Yatsenuk, it should be noted, has something called the Arseniy Yatsenuk Foundation. If you go to the foundations website you will see the logos of the foundations partners. Among these partners we find NATO, the National Endowment for Democracy, the US State Department, Chatham House (Royal Institute of International Affairs in the UK), the German Marshall Fund (a think tank founded by the German government in honor of the US Marshall Plan), as well as a couple of international banks. Is any comment needed?
Full article: http://williamblum.org/aer/read/128
(# - bolded by me).
The IMF goes to war in Ukraine
By Pepe Escobar
Source: RT.com
May 7, 2014
The IMF has approved a $17 billion loan to Ukraine. The first $3.2 billion tranche has arrived on Wednesday.
Its essential to identify the conditions attached to this Mafia-style loan. Nothing remotely similar to reviving the Ukrainian economy is in play. The scheme is inextricably linked to the IMFs notorious, one-size-fits-all structural adjustment policy, known to hundreds of millions from Latin America and Southeast Asia to Southern Europe.
The regime changers in Kiev have duly complied, launching the inevitable austerity package from tax hikes and frozen pensions to a stiff, over 50 percent rise on the price of natural gas heating Ukrainian homes. The Ukrainian people wont be able to pay their utility bills this coming winter.
Predictably, the massive loan is not for the benefit of the Ukrainian people. Kiev is essentially bankrupt. Creditors range from Western banks to Gazprom which is owed no less than $2.7 billion. The loan will pay back these creditors; not to mention that $5 billion of the total is earmarked for payments of what else previous IMF loans. It goes without saying that a lot of the funds will be duly pocketed Afghanistan-style by the current bunch of oligarchs aligned with the Yats government in Kiev......
Full article: http://zcomm.org/znetarticle/the-imf-goes-to-war-in-ukraine/
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)Nothing that provides the slightest bit of evidence the IMF procured a coup.
That is a dogmatic statement, an article of faith, not materially different than stating 'in Adam's fall we sinned all' or "Christ is risen!' One either belongs to the Church, or one does not....
polly7
(20,582 posts)Errr ........ well, sorry you don't see anything there, but I can assure you that millions around the world, most importantly the Ukrainian people, do (obviously). Perhaps if you read it again?
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)Your faith that you speak for the people of Ukraine is touching, and illustrates again that your's is a faith-based position, an expression of pure dogma, unsullied and unalloyed by fact or reason.
polly7
(20,582 posts)the throats of an already suffering people. I feel fine about that.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)And determined to be the chief exploiter of Ukraine's people.
Do not imagine there is a 'left' side to this somewhere....
polly7
(20,582 posts)Your precious fascist right-wingers are.
No, I don't support Putin any more than I do any other leader or gov't whose laws and policies I don't agree with. But I knew eventually you'd resort to this. Too funny.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)Unlike the phantom IMF coup, there is clear evidence Russian special ops types are on the ground in the east of Ukraine and leading the secessionists under arms.
My view of violence is that people engage in it at their own risk; everyone has a right to fight, but no right to succeed, and the penalties for failure can be heavy. Something people should think about before they take up the club or the gun.
Despite your denials, as a matter of practical fact, you support Putin and his program of annexation. That is the side you have chosen in this. That you support the world's leading fascist in the name of anti-fascism gives it an extra twist of humor, certainly....
"When idealists come down out of their ivory towers, they generally head straight for the gutter."
polly7
(20,582 posts)"Despite your denials, as a matter of practical fact, you support Putin and his program of annexation. That is the side you have chosen in this. That you support the world's leading fascist in the name of anti-fascism gives it an extra twist of humor, certainly...."
Lie about me again or what I've said and I'll alert. Pathetic.
(sorry to be a part of spoiling your thread, newthinking).
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)You make every argument here his propaganda apparatus does. The views you express regarding events in Ukraine, the character of various participants and factions, are all exactly the views of present Russian propaganda, and these propagandas are aimed in fact at procuring the annexation of eastern Ukraine to Russia. To reiterate them, to argue at length they are facts, true descriptions, is to support their author, and the program of action they are circulated to advance.
By the same token, you feel absolutely no hesitation in accusing me of loving Nazis and such, because I have stated I oppose Russia annexing eastern Ukraine, and oppose the parroting here of Russian propaganda in support of that. I do not complain of your doing so, I do not say you are lying about me, I do not threaten to alert over the distortion and intended insult. And it would not make the slightest difference to you if I did; you would still be happy to go on saying I supported Nazis and right-wingers, because by your lights you probably honestly think that is true. And I do not care what you think of me, or what you say about me, because I have some confidence in my ability to communicate my views clearly, and trust most who read them will understand what my positions actually are.
Your real complaint would seem to be that you are being treated according to the Golden Rule, that the way you treat others is being taken as a guide for treating you....
William769
(55,144 posts)Good Job!
To bad it's falling on deaf ears.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)I appreciate the kind words.
polly7
(20,582 posts)I just don't fall for bullshit.
Carry on ....
polly7
(20,582 posts)Propaganda?? - I wish it was.
You're supporting the new 'leaders', some of those with the most power who most certainly are right-wingers and fascists. FACT.
My 'real complaint' is that a brutal, unelected leadership is now trying to force millions of people to fall in line with policies they wouldn't have voted for, had they had the choice, and are now being killed and injured for protesting it. FACT.
I don't think about you at all ....... so no worries there.
The Magistrate
(95,244 posts)"I'm going home. Someone get me some frogs and some bourbon."
Response to The Magistrate (Reply #44)
Post removed
William769
(55,144 posts)Have a great night & will see you tomorrow.
Number23
(24,544 posts)snagglepuss
(12,704 posts)through forced stavation of up to 7.5 MILLION Ukrainians called the Holdomor?
Do you know about the policy of Russiafication? Do you know that in Ukrainian as with call the other Soviet bloc countries the USSR occupied that Russians were given all the good jobs and everyone was forced to learn Russian?
Do you know why Russians living in Ukraine are mad is that their previous superior status has been eliminated.
MattSh
(3,714 posts)please do tell exactly what is not correct in what you quoted.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)it makes me even more anti-Russia.
If this keeps up, I could be persuaded support troops being sent in to stop the violent coup in Eastern Ukraine.
TBF
(32,041 posts)because I'm sure as hell not sending my son.
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)I served a few decades ago, though.
nationalize the fed
(2,169 posts)goes under the bus.
Only mainstream media government approved truth is acceptable.
There were babies thrown out of incubators and weapons of mass destruction as well. Now Russia is our new hate receptacle. Just like before. The entire nation will be referred to as "Putin" or "That Thug Putin" or something even more hate filled. By citizens of a country that has been at war since Kosovo.
JI7
(89,244 posts)who kept posting things from that site.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)G_j
(40,366 posts)André Vltchek is a novelist, filmmaker, journalist, photographer and playwright. He covered dozens of war zones and conflicts from Bosnia and Peru to Sri Lanka, DR Congo and Timor Leste. After living for many years in Latin America and Oceania, Vltchek presently resides and works in East Asia and Africa.
Comments on Vltchek's work
On Vltchek's latest book Oceania, Noam Chomsky comments:
Andre Vltchek has compiled a stunning record in evoking the reality of the contemporary world, not as perceived through the distorting prisms of power and privilege, but as lived by the myriad victims. He has also not failed to trace the painful and particularly for the West, shameful realities to their historical roots. The remarkable scope of his inquiries is illustrated even by the titles of some of his major books: Western Terror: From Potosi to Baghdad, a vast range of topics that he explores with rare insight and understanding; and Exile, his interviews with Indonesias great novelist Pramoedya, who spent a large part of his life in internal exile, imprisoned by the murderous and vicious Suharto government in Indonesia, which was greatly admired by the West, and enthusiastically supported in its shocking crimes, after it won approval by carrying out a mass slaughter that the CIA compared to the crimes of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao, and opened up the rich resources of the country to Western exploitation. In the present work, Vltchek extends his penetrating gaze to a lovely, desecrated, almost forgotten vast area of the world, Oceania, which he shows to be a microcosm of almost all major problems faced by our planet. Again, he tears away the scabs and reveals the festering sores below with the insight, acuity, and sympathetic understanding he has shown in his earlier work. At the same time, once again, he brings to light the strength and courage of the people, and their achievements, and explores the hopes for decent recovery and survival if the powerful can allow themselves to comprehend what they have done, and to accept the responsibility of actually protecting their victims instead of mouthing comforting and self-serving slogans.
According to Michael Parenti:
Andre Vltchek brings a highly informed and incisive intelligence to the politico-economic realities of whole countries and regions. His work on Micronesia alone has opened our eyes to the iniquities of the free market in that part of the world. He writes with objectivity and investigative honesty but also with a heartfelt concern for social justice. His efforts deserve our keen attention.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,166 posts)"Two beautiful Slavic sisters, Ukraine and Russia, pitched against each other: long hair flying in the wind, gray-blue eyes staring forward accusatively, but in the same time with anticipation and love.'
Anyone who thinks that analogy is a proper characterization of the Russian-Ukrainian relationship knows absolutely jack shit about history.