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Sun May 25, 2014, 05:13 PM

NOT ALL MEN, BUT STILL TOO MANY MEN

http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2014/05/25/not-all-men-but-still-too-many-men/

A young man felt spurned by women and shot people because of it. He drove up and fired a weapon out of a BMW and committed murder, leaving behind a video and a manifesto about his rage against women. He felt rejected by them. He was reportedly a follower of MRA (Men’s Rights Activism), which is a group of men who are upset because they feel they have an unequal set of rights in a few key areas, which is a lot like a rich guy who is mad at a homeless guy because the homeless guy is standing in his favorite patch of sunlight. (The term “men’s rights” is roughly analogous to the phrase “white power,” and equally creepy.) Yes, we can talk about gun rights and mental health issues because neither are properly addressed in this country. But we also need to talk about the entitlement of men and the objectification of women.

Most of the men who read this blog are, I hope and assume, not entitled piss-bags who think that they are owed affection by women, as if that’s the role of women in this life, to be willing and charitable receptacles for our urges. To be punching bags and accessories. To reiterate and sound the horn just the same: women don’t owe you anything. Whether you’re an alpha male or a wanna-be alpha, some faux bro-dude bad-ass or some repressed alley-dwelling CHUD, it matters little. I don’t care who you are; your maleness does not entitle you to anything.

You may have been told otherwise.

Culture wants us to think that. That being a guy comes with a rider like we’re Van Halen demanding a fucking bowl full of green M&Ms or some shit, but I’m here to tell you, that isn’t true. It’s a myth. You’re entitled to nothing, and yet, ironically, you’re born with this pesky thing called privilege. And sure, someone out there is already mad I’ve invoked that word, that being a dude is hard on its own and privilege is an illusion and blah blah blah something about divorced men and prostate cancer, but just remember that the men go on dates thinking they won’t get laid, and women go on dates thinking they might get raped, punched, maybe killed. Remember that as a man you can say all kinds of shit and add “lol” at the end of it and nobody gives a shit, but as a woman anything you say might be interpreted as antagonistic and end up with rape threats or death threats. Remember that any seemingly safe space — train station, bookstore, social media, city park — is an opportunity for a man to catch a train or read a book, but is also an opportunity for a woman to be the subject of threat or sexual violence.

more...

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Reply NOT ALL MEN, BUT STILL TOO MANY MEN (Original post)
Matariki May 2014 OP
BlancheSplanchnik May 2014 #1
H2O Man May 2014 #2
jamzrockz May 2014 #3
Sheldon Cooper May 2014 #5
Egnever May 2014 #8
AverageJoe90 May 2014 #14
betsuni May 2014 #43
intaglio May 2014 #80
jamzrockz May 2014 #9
Darkhawk32 May 2014 #11
intaglio May 2014 #82
nomorenomore08 May 2014 #85
Darkhawk32 May 2014 #94
intaglio May 2014 #95
Darkhawk32 May 2014 #96
Major Nikon May 2014 #10
Tom Ripley May 2014 #44
jzola May 2014 #34
valerief May 2014 #102
Scuba May 2014 #4
Whisp May 2014 #6
bemildred May 2014 #7
kardonb May 2014 #12
smallcat88 May 2014 #15
calimary May 2014 #37
smallcat88 May 2014 #42
AverageJoe90 May 2014 #13
MrModerate May 2014 #16
Abq_Sarah May 2014 #19
gollygee May 2014 #21
Chemisse May 2014 #41
bloom May 2014 #56
MrModerate May 2014 #101
bloom May 2014 #110
intaglio May 2014 #84
MrModerate May 2014 #100
intaglio May 2014 #103
MrModerate May 2014 #104
intaglio May 2014 #105
MrModerate May 2014 #112
B Calm May 2014 #17
gollygee May 2014 #18
Starry Messenger May 2014 #20
Tom Ripley May 2014 #45
nomorenomore08 May 2014 #50
intaglio May 2014 #86
Post removed May 2014 #22
Darkhawk32 May 2014 #23
gollygee May 2014 #24
Darkhawk32 May 2014 #26
Darkhawk32 May 2014 #27
gollygee May 2014 #33
bloom May 2014 #57
Gravitycollapse May 2014 #28
gollygee May 2014 #31
Gravitycollapse May 2014 #35
Major Nikon May 2014 #46
nomorenomore08 May 2014 #49
Major Nikon May 2014 #51
nomorenomore08 May 2014 #53
Gravitycollapse May 2014 #55
Major Nikon May 2014 #67
Gravitycollapse May 2014 #87
Major Nikon May 2014 #91
Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #58
Major Nikon May 2014 #60
Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #61
Major Nikon May 2014 #63
Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #64
Major Nikon May 2014 #68
Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #69
Major Nikon May 2014 #70
Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #71
Major Nikon May 2014 #73
Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #74
Major Nikon May 2014 #75
Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #76
Major Nikon May 2014 #77
Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #78
Major Nikon May 2014 #79
Spider Jerusalem May 2014 #81
bettyellen May 2014 #99
Name removed May 2014 #29
YoungDemCA May 2014 #62
Darkhawk32 May 2014 #65
treestar May 2014 #30
treestar May 2014 #25
Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2014 #36
treestar May 2014 #38
Major Nikon May 2014 #52
nomorenomore08 May 2014 #48
intaglio May 2014 #88
nomorenomore08 May 2014 #90
Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2014 #32
TygrBright May 2014 #39
DrewFlorida May 2014 #40
Darkhawk32 May 2014 #66
joeglow3 May 2014 #72
intaglio May 2014 #89
DrewFlorida May 2014 #98
Post removed May 2014 #47
TBF May 2014 #54
bloom May 2014 #59
betsuni May 2014 #83
nomorenomore08 May 2014 #92
bloom May 2014 #106
nomorenomore08 May 2014 #107
lame54 May 2014 #93
maggiesfarmer May 2014 #108
MadrasT May 2014 #109
deutsey May 2014 #111
Brigid May 2014 #97

Response to Matariki (Original post)

Sun May 25, 2014, 05:21 PM

1. ++++++++ a billionzillionkajillion

another excellent article. Long overdue that the objectification of women, and how it threatens our lives, gets discussed.

Thank you for posting this!

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Response to Matariki (Original post)

Sun May 25, 2014, 05:23 PM

2. Recommended.

Thank you for this.

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Response to Matariki (Original post)

Sun May 25, 2014, 05:31 PM

3. Come on

 

A follower of the MRA talking about killing men who were fortunate enough to achieve what he could only dream of? Can we please not play politics with national tragedies?

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Response to jamzrockz (Reply #3)

Sun May 25, 2014, 05:44 PM

5. The personal is political.

This is the everyday reality for ALL women. Why are you bothered by the discussion?

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #5)

Sun May 25, 2014, 05:49 PM

8. Oh you are the all women spokesperson?

 

Glad we found you!

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Response to Egnever (Reply #8)

Sun May 25, 2014, 06:51 PM

14. Good one! =) nt

 

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Response to Egnever (Reply #8)

Mon May 26, 2014, 02:11 AM

43. #YesAllWomen

There's an article at Jezebel: #YesAllWomen Trend is Uprooting Everyday Misogyny One Tweet at a Time.

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Response to Egnever (Reply #8)

Mon May 26, 2014, 07:18 PM

80. Are you the spokesman for MRAs?

Sure seems like it

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #5)

Sun May 25, 2014, 06:06 PM

9. I dont understand

 

what you mean by "the personal is political". I will have just as much problem with someone trying to connect this mad man and his crime to Nazi. It just doesnt make any sense, seeing as he was also resentful of the men that had beautiful blonde girl friends.

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Response to jamzrockz (Reply #9)

Sun May 25, 2014, 06:20 PM

11. The OP is just ridiculous....

Your last statement proves her whole point is just plain stupid.

It's like me blaming feminism for a woman driving her and her kids into the ocean. Such rampant stupidity.

Edit: And trying to use this tragedy to advance a feminist movement is plain disgusting. Oh, I know, I'm a misogynist just by even replying to any thread and not bowing down at the feet of any utterance a "feminist" says. Yes, women have rights issues and so do men in some rare cases, but to equate "men's rights" with "white power" is simple too much and I demand a heartfelt apology.

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Response to Darkhawk32 (Reply #11)

Mon May 26, 2014, 07:23 PM

82. The man who acted out his dark fantasy did so

under the impression that his fantasies were acceptable to a small group of emotionally stunted know nothings.

In this instance the MRA movement is most certainly at fault in the crimes of Elliot Rodger.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #82)

Mon May 26, 2014, 07:29 PM

85. +1

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Response to intaglio (Reply #82)

Mon May 26, 2014, 08:09 PM

94. Whatever gets you through the day. n/t

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Response to Darkhawk32 (Reply #94)

Mon May 26, 2014, 08:36 PM

95. Well at least I am not attempting to defend the sick fantasies of the MRA community

How do you get through your day?

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Response to intaglio (Reply #95)

Mon May 26, 2014, 08:57 PM

96. I didn't say that. You're just as bad as them. n/t

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Response to jamzrockz (Reply #3)

Sun May 25, 2014, 06:17 PM

10. One person who goes on a murderous rampage is "STILL TOO MANY"

Trying to rationalize irrational behavior is pointless. It's as silly as saying "STILL TOO MANY WOMEN" drown their children after the Ebony Wilkerson tragedy.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #10)

Mon May 26, 2014, 02:13 AM

44. ^^^THIS^^^

 

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Response to jamzrockz (Reply #3)

Sun May 25, 2014, 08:04 PM

34. Everything is political

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Response to jamzrockz (Reply #3)

Tue May 27, 2014, 01:53 AM

102. Can we not pull out the same tired old excuses for not talking about gun control and

misogyny?

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Response to Matariki (Original post)

Sun May 25, 2014, 05:44 PM

4. K&R

 

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Response to Matariki (Original post)

Sun May 25, 2014, 05:47 PM

6. one entitled piss bag is too many.

 

Fortunately there aren't that many here, but for fucks sure there are some here and they stink like a rotting hell, but the majority of people here are decent and think of their daughters and sons as equal human beings who should enjoy equal safety and opportunity.

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Response to Matariki (Original post)

Sun May 25, 2014, 05:48 PM

7. +1. nt

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Response to Matariki (Original post)

Sun May 25, 2014, 06:36 PM

12. women and the repugs

 

have you ever noticed that in EVERY religion , women are always treated as second class beings . Why are men so afraid of us ?

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Response to kardonb (Reply #12)

Sun May 25, 2014, 07:03 PM

15. I second that!

Been wondering for a long time why men throughout history are so terrified of women and giving us equal rights. Still haven't come up with a good answer.
Maybe it's the whole 'giving life' thing. Or maybe it's just because far too many men still think with their dicks. Both?

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Response to smallcat88 (Reply #15)

Sun May 25, 2014, 08:10 PM

37. I have wondered that - most of my life. The whole nauseating Woman-As-Property thing.

WHY???? Why are we some how less? Why are we objectified, demeaned, patronized, minimized, overlooked, snickered at, and first in line to have rights denied? WHY????????? WHY are we first-to-be-held-back? First to be talked over? First to be interrupted. First to be shoved aside. First to be paid less. First to be passed over. First to be ghettoized in "mommy tracks" and other lesser-than-thou categories? I find that whole tradition rather offensive. Always did. So who was it long ago who decided the men get to speak first, walk ahead first, get chosen first, get preferred first, get the benefits and the privileges first? Why did it have to be "all MEN are created equal?" And what about us women? What are we? Chopped liver? Invisibles? Nonessentials? Back-of-the-bus'ers? Lesser-thans? Inferiors?

Inferiors indeed! The "weaker sex" indeed! I defy ANY man, here, there, or ANYWHERE to withstand the rigors of pregnancy and childbirth. YOU try squeezing that big thing outta that little tube through YOUR pelvic bone structure, 'eh? I personally think women are entitled to be called "the stronger sex" - for that reason alone.

I remember being laid off and told - "well, hey, at least YOU have a husband, so..." And I had to break the news to this clown - "yeah, that's true. But he isn't working at the moment. I'm the only one bringing home a pay check. Well - at least I WAS. Until TODAY."

And you know you've got 'em when they have no comeback. They have nothing but a funny look on their face, busily wracking what there is of their "brains" looking for some template or cheat-sheet or Cliffs Notes or something so they can come back with a cute and semi-relevant response that will somehow excuse them and nullify the thoughtless dumb-ass lunk-head insult they just tossed your way.

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Response to calimary (Reply #37)

Mon May 26, 2014, 12:05 AM

42. Sorry to hear

you had to go through that.

But childbirth aside, I can't even imagine them withstanding monthly cramps! In my 50's now and so happy I'm past that. But I imagine it all comes back to the same reason politicians and CEO's do all the unimaginably horrific and illegal crap they get away with: power. It's all a power trip.

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Response to Matariki (Original post)

Sun May 25, 2014, 06:50 PM

13. The comment about "privilege" aside, this was a rather good, thoughtful article overall.

 

Though I'd argue that even ONE potential Elliot Rodger is too damn many.

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Response to Matariki (Original post)

Sun May 25, 2014, 07:09 PM

16. Putting my Pollyanna hat on . . .

I have to ask the author: what kind of people (and specifically men) do you hang out with? Can you quantify how many of the too-many-men think like you describe?

Because I don't know any. I'm an older guy and my friends tend older as well, but I do know younger men and was one myself once, and the attitudes you describe are foreign to me.

Please don't get me wrong, but when the author of this piece says "Culture wants us to think that. That being a guy comes with a rider like we’re Van Halen demanding a fucking bowl full of green M&Ms or some shit . . ." that sounds like he's talking about the majority view.

It it helpful to terrorize ourselves? Do we make things better by painting them as worse?

Maybe I'm kicking a hornet's nest, but I'd like to know from both men and women:

• Men, do you recognize these traits? Are they predominant among your friends and acquaintances?
• Women, do you live in fear of all public places? Do you see every man as a potential assailant?

Because — without trying to downplay the problem — the author seems to be living on a different planet than I am.

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Response to MrModerate (Reply #16)

Sun May 25, 2014, 07:30 PM

19. I don't fear men

And, I don't believe all men are secret women-haters. Yes, there is a small percentage of both men AND women who despise the opposite sex but they're the exception rather than the rule.

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Response to MrModerate (Reply #16)

Sun May 25, 2014, 07:35 PM

21. I've known few men with scary senses of sexual entitlement

It isn't common but they are scary. In all my life (and I'm middle aged now) I've only known a few men with as scary a sense of sexual entitlement as this guy, however I have known a great number of men with a sense of sexual entitlement but not as bad, and every person with that sense of entitlement is creepy. When you hear a woman say "creepy" it's that sexual entitlement thing that's creepy.

So as far as seeing every man as a potential assailant, it's not exactly like that. Every man you don't know, you don't know. You know some men are assailants and if you don't know that man you don't know if he is and isn't. If we get to know them and don't get that creepy sexual entitlement vibe, we don't keep thinking of them as potential assailants.

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Response to MrModerate (Reply #16)

Sun May 25, 2014, 08:55 PM

41. I'm not afraid of men - in public places or privately.

With some exceptions, of course.

Like many women (perhaps 20%??), I have been raped. In addition I have been grabbed, held at gunpoint, chased, and once held with a knife at my throat, for the apparent purpose of rape - a number of times. .

I refuse to think of myself as a victim of anything. I am a survivor. I escaped danger many times, and when I didn't escape, I coped with it and then put it in the past.

I don't hold any of this against men in general. I hold it against those specific men who were willing to do such a thing to a young girl. There are many of them out there. But it is not an inherent flaw in men, as so many here on DU seem to believe.

The men I associate with - including my husband - are not potential rapists, nor do they act as though they are entitled because they are men. They are respectful of women, as they are of people in general.

My expectation is that men will treat me as an equal. We usually get from others what we show that we expect. If I expected to be treated poorly, that would be the treatment I would likely receive, AND that would be the treatment I would be more likely to take note of.

Clearly there are some areas of the country and some subcultures where male supremacy is a prevalent theme, and maybe those on DU who rage against all men, are living in those conditions.

In addition, there is a workplace culture that discriminates against women, and my daughter tells me that in the more competitive academic pursuits, there is a disdain for women scholars. Women must work much harder to be taken seriously.

So there is a good reason to be a feminist, to promote further steps toward equality for women. But men need to be a part of this movement as well. And that is not going to happen if they are put in a position of defending themselves, rather than enlisted in the cause of full equality.

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Response to MrModerate (Reply #16)

Mon May 26, 2014, 03:08 PM

56. There are many places I avoid because of men and their attitudes of entitlement.

I do not see every man as a potential assailant. But I know that seemingly 'nice men' can turn out to be not nice at all.


And I have seen the attitude of the entitled man on this and similar threads.

If it were up to me, they would be tomb-stoned to create a better environment, for the rest of us.

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Response to bloom (Reply #56)

Mon May 26, 2014, 10:44 PM

101. OK, I'm curious . . .

What sort of places need to be avoided because of "men's entitlement?"

I can certainly understand avoiding places because of a physical danger of stranger assault — dark alleys and the like. But I'd challenge the notion that stranger assault is based on "entitlement" Few sane men would think that they're entitled to rape someone.

But what are your experiences that cause you to avoid places because of men's attitudes?

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Response to MrModerate (Reply #101)

Tue May 27, 2014, 09:23 AM

110. Sane men, rape and places to avoid

I am sure that the man who raped thought that he was just doing what men do. He added me to his list of conquests. I quite clearly had told him no. In retrospect, he quite clearly set up the situation. I don't think that he would be considered insane. I expect he generally knows right from wrong - except for when it comes to raping women. I expect what he learned from people around him and from the culture - he figured what he did was not wrong - but was how a person got points in the game of life. He managed to get himself the role as teacher - teaching from his house. I heard from a friend of mine - who did have consensual sex with him - about the 100s of women he had 'had'.

I was camping once, with my kids and had someone start to get in my tent in the middle of the night. I heard the zipper start to unzip, I made a noise, he left (I am going to assume it was a he). I would not want to camp alone or with children after that.

I often think, do I want to go there alone? Will it be safe? It may be the woods, some place with a bunch of young college men, bars, concerts, etc. I would be concerned working at a place with all men and no women - because of the culture that develops (the entitlement attitude). I feel better hiking when I have my dog with me. I have done a bit of traveling alone - in Europe and here and there. But I consider time of day, the remoteness of a location and such, when I go out.

I had a painting teacher who when talking about painting outside, advised her students never to sit in such a way that they could not see someone approach - because of possible assaults by men.

As I get older, I think I am getting more invisible. I actually see that as a good thing, when it comes to men. But I don't think I will ever feel 'safe' from men - even I was 100 years old.

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Response to MrModerate (Reply #16)

Mon May 26, 2014, 07:29 PM

84. Putting on my "Use Google" hat I need only point you at the vile postings on loveshy

Or the nasty rape and violence affirming words of Paul Elam, a prominent spokesman of the MRA set.

As to men recognising these traits check out the twitter feed #yesallwomen and see how many men have noticed those traits and so have posted supportively.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #84)

Mon May 26, 2014, 10:39 PM

100. Does a Twitter meme equal general acceptance? N/T

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Response to MrModerate (Reply #100)

Tue May 27, 2014, 02:38 AM

103. Look don't denigrate

#YesAllWomen

and considering how Time, New Yorker and numerous other mainstream outlets are noticing it ...

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Response to intaglio (Reply #103)

Tue May 27, 2014, 05:27 AM

104. Sorry, I'm not understanding your comment. n/t

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Response to MrModerate (Reply #104)

Tue May 27, 2014, 08:51 AM

105. Funny that ...

Look at the hashtag, don't denigrate those who post about it

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Response to intaglio (Reply #105)

Tue May 27, 2014, 10:17 PM

112. Asking the question is not denigration.

And that question is serious: because something surges on Twitter, does that make it a predominant view?

While I share with the posters their disgust of the violent misogynists they're responding to, many of those posters seem to be saying that such views characterize our society rather than being rejected by the vast majority of decent people.

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Response to Matariki (Original post)

Sun May 25, 2014, 07:14 PM

17. Has anyone alerted on this hateful thread?

 

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Response to B Calm (Reply #17)

Sun May 25, 2014, 07:27 PM

18. If this gets hidden

after "he must have been gay" or "he only did it because no woman gave him a pity fuck" threads didn't get hidden, I'll wonder what's up.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #18)

Sun May 25, 2014, 07:31 PM

20. +1

Well, not wonder, really.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #18)

Mon May 26, 2014, 02:15 AM

45. +1000

 

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Response to B Calm (Reply #17)

Mon May 26, 2014, 03:42 AM

50. How is calling out entitled assholes "hateful" towards all men? I don't follow you...

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Response to B Calm (Reply #17)

Mon May 26, 2014, 07:30 PM

86. Care to define why it is "hateful"

other than your own fantasies, of course.

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Response to Matariki (Original post)


Response to Post removed (Reply #22)

Sun May 25, 2014, 07:48 PM

23. DU has truly become anti-male for the sake of being anti-male. n/t

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Response to Darkhawk32 (Reply #23)

Sun May 25, 2014, 07:51 PM

24. Anti-misogynist does not = anti-male

since most men are not misogynist.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #24)

Sun May 25, 2014, 07:53 PM

26. Not according to the OP and not to a lot of women on this site. We're all lumped in together.

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Response to Darkhawk32 (Reply #26)

Sun May 25, 2014, 07:55 PM

27. But go ahead, focus on a sexually frustrated male and not the real issue...

until the next shooting and hope you can forget your previous ignorance.

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Response to Darkhawk32 (Reply #27)

Sun May 25, 2014, 08:02 PM

33. What do you see as the real issue?

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Response to Darkhawk32 (Reply #27)

Mon May 26, 2014, 03:13 PM

57. I would like to hear what you think the 'real issue' is. n/t

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Response to gollygee (Reply #24)

Sun May 25, 2014, 07:55 PM

28. Every last person in society is misogynist to some degree.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #28)

Sun May 25, 2014, 07:58 PM

31. Hmm

Well everyone is a part of our patriarchal culture and takes in what our culture says, but as far as actual woman-hating, I guess I don't see that.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #31)

Sun May 25, 2014, 08:06 PM

35. It doesn't necessarily need to be a conscious act or thought.

The dehumanization of women through objectification is a form of misogyny and it doesn't require someone to first actuate a tangible hatred of women before its effects are felt.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #35)

Mon May 26, 2014, 03:05 AM

46. For the fully literate, I'm pretty sure it does

mi·sog·y·ny noun \mə-ˈsä-jə-nē\
Definition of MISOGYNY
: a hatred of women

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/misogyny

hate noun, often attributive \ˈhāt\ : a very strong feeling of dislike
Full Definition of HATE
1
a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury
b : extreme dislike or antipathy : loathing <had a great hate of hard work>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hate

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #46)

Mon May 26, 2014, 03:40 AM

49. Cultural biases don't have to be consciously expressed to have an effect.

I think focusing on the "hatred" (as in a conscious, definite emotion) part rather than the "anti-woman" part may be what's complicating the discussion here.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #49)

Mon May 26, 2014, 04:06 AM

51. There's only 3 words in the definition

If you discount the preposition, there's only two that matter so focusing in on "hatred" and "women" is just not all that unreasonable.

If someone wants to invent their own definitions, more power to them, but I just don't think they are going to have much success with convincing too many people their subliteracy really is fully literate.

There is no "anti-woman" part in the definition. If that were the defintion, the word would be 'antigyny'. Misogyny is hatred of women. It need not be any more complicated than that.

The "effect" you are referring to is discrimination based on gender, which is sexism. Misogyny happens in the mind and certainly is a product of consciousness. Sexism can be the expression of misogyny or it can be unintentional.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #51)

Mon May 26, 2014, 04:29 AM

53. Okay, fair enough. Using "sexism" in place of "misogyny" is fine. n/t

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #51)

Mon May 26, 2014, 03:07 PM

55. Sexism is a concept, not an action.

Sexism is not the action of misogyny. If you want to run your mouth about my supposed lack of literacy, it would help your case if you yourself didn't demonstrate a lack of comprehension on the subject.

Sexism and misogyny are complex concepts, revolving around similar premises. They are both the embodiment of abjectification and objectification of the "other." What constitutes the other and to what extreme that subject is dehumanized and turned abject is what forms its classification.

Misosgyny is an extreme form of sexism against women. It is not purely an explicit hatred but the harboring and expression of beliefs and actions which either demonstrate a conscious or unconscious hatred for women, or feeds into the systemic hatred of women.

If only the world was as simple as your dictionary. No one would have to write volumes of texts on subjects because three words apparently makes such complex analysis redundant.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #55)

Mon May 26, 2014, 04:40 PM

67. Sexism is an action

At least that's how the dictionary defines it. Again, if you want to make up your own definitions, be my guest. Lots of people do. Just don't pretend your personal definition matches what everyone else means because it just doesn't.

Sexism can and does take extreme forms. The idea that misogyny is nothing more than extreme sexism is not supported by any definition I have ever seen. They are two different words with can have intersection, but mean different things. Nobody can be an "unconscious" misogynist any more than anyone can be an unconscious racist. It requires hatred or at the very least the belief that a race or gender is inferior, both of which require conscious thought.

http://www.women24.com/Wellness/BodyAndSpirit/Stop-confusing-misogyny-with-sexism-20131105

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/oct/17/difference-between-sexism-and-misogyny

http://kristof.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/07/misogyny-vs-sexism/

Misogyny is the hatred or dislike of women or girls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny

Sexism or gender discrimination is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #67)

Mon May 26, 2014, 07:32 PM

87. "Sexism is an action" - No, sexism is what inspires action and what is produced by action.

Running, for instance, is a verb. Sexism, even by the book which you seem to worship, the dictionary, is a noun or adjective. You don't sexist. You are or are a sexist.

Does this make sense to you? Either way, that's how it works. If you choose to ignore it, like you have been so far, I don't give a shit.

As for the articles you've posted, I don't agree with their assessment. Sexism and misogyny come from the same source. Both view women as abject and object. Misogyny simply expresses that disdain more freely and violently. But the difference between the two is severity.

In order to understand this you would have to spend some time thinking about and discussing the motivation for sexist behavior. You would have to read the theory on sexism and not just Google search until you find an article which agrees with your preconceived narrative.

Yes, insisting on holding the door open for a woman is sexism. But why is that sexist? What is the underlying motivation that allows for that act of sexism? It is rooted in the psychological need to reduce women to objects; to remove their humanity. The reason why we do this is that we have a deeply seeded distrust and disdain for those we consider to be "other." The need to unconditionally separate the self from the other manifests in what is often called splitting (although critical theorists do not necessarily use that term). We establish our own identity as pure or innocent and the identity of the other as dirty, guilty and evil. It is a defense mechanism which happens both consciously and subconsciously. We inflict this idiocy on members of groups to which we do not subscribe and even, often, to our own groups as long as we can maintain the illusion that the others in the group are not ourselves.

What is novel about the actions of Elliott Rodgers is the severity of consequence of misogyny and not the misogyny itself. There's nothing newly unsettling about the principles of his hatred. It is simply shocking to see it carried out to such immense proportion.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #87)

Mon May 26, 2014, 07:41 PM

91. "As for the articles you've posted, I don't agree with their assessment"

Neither do I agree with yours.

I'll leave it at that. Evidently you can't.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #46)

Mon May 26, 2014, 03:23 PM

58. ...

misogyny
Pronunciation: /mɪˈsɒdʒəni

noun
[mass noun]

Dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/misogyny


misogyny
noun /mɪˈsɒdʒ.ɪ.ni/
› feelings of hating women, or the belief that men are much better than women

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/misogyny?



misogyny

mi·sog·y·ny
/mɪˈsɒdʒəni, maɪ-/
noun
hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.

Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2014.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/misogyny?s=t

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #58)

Mon May 26, 2014, 04:09 PM

60. All of those definitions require a conscience effort

The Greek origin of the word literally means women hatred, BTW.

Origin

mid 17th century: from Greek misos 'hatred' + gunē 'woman'.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/misogyny



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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #60)

Mon May 26, 2014, 04:13 PM

61. You probably mean "conscious"

if you want to quibble about the precise and literal meaning of words it probably helps to be able to use them properly.

Also? The meaning of words changes with use. The currently accepted and understood definition of "misogyny" includes prejuidce against and contempt for women.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #61)

Mon May 26, 2014, 04:22 PM

63. I'm not grammar flaming, you are

Your grammar flame had exactly zero to do with the subject at hand and was completely lame and pointless. I could also pick apart the grammar in your last post if I wanted to be equally lame and pointless. I don't.

The person I was replying to was making their own definition of the word which is completely outside any definition you posted. If you can't stay on subject, I have little interest in continuing this line with you.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #63)

Mon May 26, 2014, 04:24 PM

64. No, they really weren't.

Misogyny: Ingrained prejudice against or contempt for women.

That seems like precisely the definition the person you were responding to was using.

It's in the dictionary, you can look it up.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #64)

Mon May 26, 2014, 04:45 PM

68. So how exactly does one unconsciously ingrain prejudice against or have contempt for women?

Not only does that make no sense whatsoever, you're simply cherry picking definitions to support a flawed idea where you can't possibly connect the dots.

Sexism and misogyny are used interchangeably by those who use subliterate definitions for those words. They are two different words with two different meanings.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #68)

Mon May 26, 2014, 04:55 PM

69. Culture causes unconscious prejudice, obviously.

And I'm not the one cherry-picking definitions, you are. Guess what? Every other dictionary shows the definition I gave you. Oxford, Cambridge, Macmillan, Random House, Macquarie.

Sorry, but you should probably admit that you're wrong at this point.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #69)

Mon May 26, 2014, 05:16 PM

70. You are really reaching here

I have no issue with any of the definitions you provided, so pretending I do is nothing more than strawman rhetoric. Furthermore all of the definitions you provided strongly qualify prejudice if they even mention it at all and prejudice still requires a conscious belief that someone is inferior for no valid basis. So I'm not really sure how you think that helps your case.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #70)

Mon May 26, 2014, 05:22 PM

71. Are you telling me that a significant percentage of men don't think women are inferior?

And that this isn't a culturally engrained prejudice? Especially in Western Judeo-Christian cultures? I'm sorry, but you know, if you're going to try to make an argument that's so significantly at odds with reality it's pretty clear that you have a very minimally limited understanding of the subject and aren't really equipped to discuss it in an intelligent manner.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #71)

Mon May 26, 2014, 05:40 PM

73. Interesting how you articulated that question

With "think" being the key word. Whether or not it's a "culturally engrained prejudice" is irrelevant. People can be and are taught to hate.

The answer to your question is no, I am not telling you that so it's anyone's guess how you got there from here but it looks a lot like the beginnings of more strawman rhetoric. So it seems rather rich you'd refer to intelligent discussion in the same breadth you are employing obvious fallacies.

If someone believes women are inferior, they are a misogynist which is very much like how if someone believes blacks are inferior, they are a racist.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #73)

Mon May 26, 2014, 05:47 PM

74. Do you not even know what you're saying?

prejudice still requires a conscious belief that someone is inferior for no valid basis


Your words. If you have no idea how I got there then you're not following the thread very well.

This is all very relevant to the definition of misogyny as prejudice against or contempt for women. Which is cultural and still broadly common in Judeo-Christian Western culture generally, and American culture specifically.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #74)

Mon May 26, 2014, 06:04 PM

75. I'm quite sure I know what I'm saying

I'm not as sure I know what you are saying.

What I described is exactly what prejudice is. If you think it means something else, that may be where the logical disconnect is occurring.

Oddly you keep blatantly ignoring the definition for misogyny includes hate which was specified in every single definition you provided.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #75)

Mon May 26, 2014, 06:09 PM

76. I see that you're a bit obtuse.

So here it is again:

misogyny

Pronunciation: /mɪˈsɒdʒ ə ni

/
noun
[mass noun]

Dislike of, contempt for, or ingrained prejudice against women

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/misogyny


misogyny
noun /mɪˈsɒdʒ.ɪ.ni/

feelings of hating women, or the belief that men are much better than women

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/misogyny?


misogyny

noun [uncountable] British English pronunciation: misogyny /mɪˈsɒdʒəni/

the feeling of hating or strongly disliking women, or being prejudiced against them

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/misogyny


Do you need to have the meaning of "or" defined for you, as well?

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #76)

Mon May 26, 2014, 06:19 PM

77. Perhaps you need to look it up

"or" means there are multiple possibilities and you are ignoring one and pretending the other is exclusive.

You are no closer to explaining how misogyny can be unconscious in the same way nobody can explain how racism can be unconscious. The fact that both can be the product of cultural teachings is irrelevant. Hate, contempt, prejudice, dislike, all can be taught which is how they are often the product of culture. If anything that makes them more conscious, not less.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #77)

Mon May 26, 2014, 06:24 PM

78. I'm afraid I'm not the one doing that.

You're the one doing that. You're the one insisting that "misogyny" means "hatred of women" when it does not only mean "hatred of women", it also means "prejudice against women" and "contempt for women". And you seem to be trying to derail the whole thread first by insisting "but no misogyny doesn't mean that!" and then whingeing about the precision of definitions when it's pointed out to you that no, in fact, it does mean that.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #78)

Mon May 26, 2014, 07:06 PM

79. Regardless of what it means none of the definitions support the assertion

Which is that misogyny can be unconscious.

Misogyny does mean hatred of women. Many dictionaries, including the oldest and most widely referenced American English dictionary, have that as the ONLY definition, so the assertion that this is the ONLY definition is not without merit and is provable. In order to get your "or" you had to reference international dictionaries(some of which don't even include the "or" in the principal definition) to even remotely support the assertion and even then is without merit. Every single definition you provided requires conscious thought or belief, which even you slipped up and alluded to. Seems like a helluva lot of effort to obfuscate. Since this is obviously going nowhere besides ad nauseum, I'm going to end this whether you do or not. When you believe I'm "wrong" and need to admit it simply because you don't agree, it's pretty obvious you have zero interest in substantive discussion.

Cheers!

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #79)

Mon May 26, 2014, 07:22 PM

81. Of course it can.

There have been a significant number of studies on the very issue of unconscious bias that indicate that it is in fact a very real thing. For instance: http://www.aas.org/cswa/unconsciousbias.html

And you're still wrong.


misogyny
mi·sog·y·ny
/mɪˈsɒdʒəni, maɪ-/
noun
hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women.


That's from the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, which, last I checked, was American. (Although the sense and meaning is similar in the Oxford Dictionary, and last I checked the language was English, not "American".) I find it absolutely hilarious that you feel the need to jump into a thread about this to argue that "misogyny doesn't mean that!" and that you have nothing to fall back on when it's pointed out that multiple dictionaries as well as common usage disagree with you.

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Response to Spider Jerusalem (Reply #81)

Mon May 26, 2014, 10:17 PM

99. Nailed it, thank you. Ridiculous the lengths people go to in oreder to try and squash the

 

conversation entirely. Jeeze, he will pull the same bullshit tommorrow with a different poster, pretending he does not know better.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #24)


Response to Darkhawk32 (Reply #23)

Mon May 26, 2014, 04:13 PM

62. rofl

 

You probably believe that, too. How sad.

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Response to YoungDemCA (Reply #62)

Mon May 26, 2014, 04:26 PM

65. Yeah, I usually don't like misogynist women. n/t

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Response to Post removed (Reply #22)

Sun May 25, 2014, 07:55 PM

30. They don't kill, but they have those attitudes

Some do.

But men have had the upper hand for centuries, the petty things you claim women have are nothing.

Men have equal rights in parenthood - the kid gets your name. Use condoms. FCOL. You have just as much right to birth control.

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Response to Matariki (Original post)

Sun May 25, 2014, 07:53 PM

25. I think men are more likely to be assaulted, though

Wasn't that a statistic out there?

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Response to treestar (Reply #25)

Sun May 25, 2014, 08:08 PM

36. Check out www.bjs.gov probably.

The bureau of justice statistics. They've probably got it split out in crosstabs somewhere. I'd actually be surprised if that's the case in the general population, but I could certainly see it in gender segregated populations like jails. I would image assaults in jails skew the 'assaults on males' numbers up.

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Response to Erich Bloodaxe BSN (Reply #36)

Mon May 26, 2014, 04:22 AM

52. The NCVS doesn't survey prisoners


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Response to treestar (Reply #25)

Mon May 26, 2014, 03:38 AM

48. They are more likely to be murdered, overall. About 3 times more IIRC.

But on the other hand, women are far more likely to be murdered by intimate partners.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #48)

Mon May 26, 2014, 07:33 PM

88. And what is the majority gender doing that murdering?

Care to speculate?

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Response to intaglio (Reply #88)

Mon May 26, 2014, 07:38 PM

90. Of course men commit most of the murders. I was just answering the other poster's question.

I'm certainly not trying for any MRA-ish "equivalency" here.

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Response to Matariki (Original post)

Sun May 25, 2014, 08:01 PM

32. Reminds me of the pro-life crowd.

They egg each other on to harass doctors and nurses who work at clinics that provide abortion services until one of them comes along who is willing to act on their violent wishes and actually commit murders or arson. Then, while that particular ass goes to jail, the rest of them get off scot free despite having created the environment that led to murder, and the encouragement and support given to the murderer.

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Response to Matariki (Original post)

Sun May 25, 2014, 08:37 PM

39. This quote says it ALL:

Because if your response to the shooting is to defend men (or worse, condemn women) instead of speaking out against this type of violence and attitude, then you best check yourself.


Seriously.

Pointing out that entrenched misogyny, the tolerance thereof, and the cultural expectations associated therewith, is the enabler of violence against women up to and including spree murder is NOT an indictment of everyone with a Y chromosome.

It is a statement of the problem.

And if you are not willing to see the problem for what it is, you are not going to be able to solve the problem.

And what is that old saying about "part of the solution, or..."?

wearily,
Bright

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Response to Matariki (Original post)

Sun May 25, 2014, 08:41 PM

40. The fact of the matter is, people of both genders can be abusive, degrading and downright hatefull,

Yes it is a fact that male to female abuse, aggression, inequality and sexism is a huge problem which deserves a great deal of attention and change on the part of men and societal expectations. However this problem has two sides to it, and on the other side is the abuse, aggression, inequality and sexism toward men in society. The idea that one side of the problem can be solved without addressing the problem comprehensively is foolishness. Do we need to have income equality for women in the workplace? Of course we do, of course it is ridiculous that women are paid 70 cents for every dollar a man is paid, and we also need to change how society views a stay at home dad who's wife is the primary breadwinner. Do we need to address sexism and sexual aggression toward women? Of course we do, and we also need to change how men's and women's sexuality is viewed in society and in the media. The idea that these problems are only the fault of one gender is false and wrong, every sexist male has a mother who helped shape his life, either through his upbringing and or her choice of mate, and every sexist female also had a father who helped shape her life.

Yes there are very real dangers faced by women in society, and society needs to create protections for them, but the only real change that can occur begins in the larger picture of the problem. All of society is to blame for OUR gender problems, I've raised two nice young adult sons, who respect women's rights, in fact they respect all people's rights including their own. I personally was raised by a mother who was alcoholic and hated men including my father, we were raised listening to her continuous degrading of all men (I have 4 brothers and 1 sister), She had no clue what messages she was sending to her 6 children. On the other hand we had a father who stayed in an abusive marriage in order to make sure his children were cared for, he did everything he could to avoid confrontations with her volatile personality, and eventually left her after my youngest sibling left to live on his own. Of course many of my brothers grew up with a hatred for women in general, misappropriating their anger toward our mother, and so goes the cycle of misappropriated anger in society.

I grew up with many self defeating behaviors, until I started going to codependency and alanon meetings, at which, I learned of my misplaced anger and my inability to forgive people.

Let's stop having an angry debate on this subject and understand that this problem is much more complicated than men hating women, or women hating men, it is a socially downward spiral of emotional disfunction. Let's work to get help for women who need help, and also for society to change it's view of gender issues, gender roles, gender expectations, not just for one gender, but for both!

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Response to DrewFlorida (Reply #40)

Mon May 26, 2014, 04:30 PM

66. Very well stated but probably not going to receive much consideration right now. n/t

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Response to DrewFlorida (Reply #40)

Mon May 26, 2014, 05:31 PM

72. I shared stories of how my brother is treated for staying at home

 

And people here told me I was lying. Some have their head in the sand.

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Response to DrewFlorida (Reply #40)

Mon May 26, 2014, 07:37 PM

89. And which gender, by a huge majority, commits violent acts?

In this particular case it was precisely the fact that Rodger found himself a nasty little community of incompetent males who cheered him on that led to this tragedy.

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Response to intaglio (Reply #89)

Mon May 26, 2014, 09:42 PM

98. You don't need to convince me of the problem of violence against women!

It's just that I understand that the solutions to the problem are very complicated and speak to the core of American society, even to all societies around the world! Do we just get outraged, then do nothing toward a solution? Do we just pile outrage on men? Or do we understand that society and individual families train our boys and girls to be aggressive and abusive adults? America, as with most countries, does not have a focus or priority on emotional health and well-being and most parents (male and female) continue to raise their children with the same dysfunctions they were taught growing up, ie aggressive competition rather than compassionate cooperation, empathy and understanding.

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Response to Matariki (Original post)


Response to Matariki (Original post)

Mon May 26, 2014, 08:07 AM

54. In a culture of individualism and violence

it probably should not be surprising to see this entitlement and objectification. Yet still so many deny it exists.

I found a good article on this yesterday as well: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10244812

I'm glad a few journalists are starting to see what is going on in the big picture and starting to write about it.

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Response to Matariki (Original post)

Mon May 26, 2014, 03:31 PM

59. I wonder if the mansplainers know the OP is from the blog of Chuck Wendig.

(esp. the ones who seem to think it was written by a woman, and that the woman is 'hateful', etc.)

More from the linked article:

"Instead of telling women that it’s not all men, show them.

Show them by listening and supporting.

Show them by cleaning the dogshit out of your ears and listening to their stories — and recognize that while no, it’s not “all men,” it’s still “way too many men.”

...Recognize that just because “not all men” are gun-toting, women-hating assholes fails to diminish the fact that sexism and rape culture remain firmly entrenched and institutional within our culture.

Because if your response to the shooting is to defend men (or worse, condemn women) instead of speaking out against this type of violence and attitude, then you best check yourself."

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Response to bloom (Reply #59)

Mon May 26, 2014, 07:26 PM

83. They don't read anything -- the knee jerks, they type

Mansplainers know everything already, as they can't get enough of telling us and telling us and telling us -- why won't we listen, why? They are trying to help us understand! It's funny to see them barking up the wrong trees when they think a feminist-monster is up there.

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Response to betsuni (Reply #83)

Mon May 26, 2014, 07:50 PM

92. "...barking up the wrong trees when they think a feminist-monster is up there."

Now that's funny!

I got a bit of an earful last night from someone who evidently thought I was female. We wound up having a civil conversation after that, but his initial reaction was pretty funny, in both senses of the word. You know what they say about assuming...

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #92)

Tue May 27, 2014, 09:00 AM

106. It's sad actually

How the man was civil once he knew you were a man, but not before.

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Response to bloom (Reply #106)

Tue May 27, 2014, 09:08 AM

107. That's one way to look at it. Regardless, I didn't come away with the most positive feeling. n/t

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Response to Matariki (Original post)

Mon May 26, 2014, 07:52 PM

93. About the green M&M's...

It's actually no brown M&M's and that was in the contract to check if the contract was being followed

“When Roth would arrive at a new venue, he’d immediately walk backstage and glance at the M&M bowl. If he saw a brown M&M, he’d demand a line check of the entire production. “Guaranteed you’re going to arrive at a technical error,” he said. “They didn’t read the contract… Sometimes it would threaten to just destroy the whole show.”
http://businessofsoftware.org/2013/08/the-truth-about-van-halens-mm-rider-just-good-operations/

Carry on

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Response to lame54 (Reply #93)

Tue May 27, 2014, 09:17 AM

108. +1 pedantic, informative and actually interesting

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Response to lame54 (Reply #93)

Tue May 27, 2014, 09:22 AM

109. I was debating whether or not to post that but decided it would be derailing the conversation.

Still, I'm kind of glad you did. I though it was very interesting when I learned the real reason behind the M&Ms clause.

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Response to lame54 (Reply #93)

Tue May 27, 2014, 09:40 AM

111. Hmm. I never knew that.

Thanks for the larger context!

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Response to Matariki (Original post)

Mon May 26, 2014, 08:59 PM

97. And another thing:

If a woman is doing nothing more enticing than standing at a freaking bus stop waiting for -- guess what -- a bus, she doesn't need stupid comments from you like "Staying out of trouble?" All you're going to get in response is a glare. I know -- I've seen me do it.

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