#NOTALLMEN: How Not to Derail Discussions of Women's Issues

[sheshe2]

This is a great read, so much more at the link. Yes, this is a man's point of view and a good one.

#YesAllWomen

By Phil Plait

On Friday, May 23, 2014, a man killed six people (and possibly himself). The manifesto he left behind stated he did it because women wouldn’t sleep with him. I won’t recount the details here; they can be found easily enough. I also won’t speculate on the controversies involving his mental health, or about the NRA, or the police involvement in this. I want to focus on a narrower point here, and that has to do with men and women, and their attitudes toward each other.

Taryn O'Neill @tarynoneill
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My husband didn't 'get it' until he spent half an hour on the feed. Then he looked ashen. "I had no idea". #YesAllWomen
2:33 PM - 25 May 2014

The murderer was active on men’s rights fora, where women are highly objectified, to say the very least. They are seen as nonhuman by many such groups, and at the very least lesser than men—sometimes nothing more than targets or things to acquire. What these men write puts them, to me, in the same category as White Power movements, or any other horribly bigoted group that “others” anyone else. While it may not be possible to blame the men’s rights groups for what happened, from the reports we’ve seen they certainly provided an atmosphere of support.

Of course, these loathsome people represent a very small percentage of men out there. Over the weekend, as the discussion across Twitter turned to these horrible events, a lot of men started tweeting this, saying “not all men are like that.” It’s not an unexpected response. However, it’s also not a helpful one.

Why is it not helpful to say “not all men are like that”? For lots of reasons. For one, women know this. They already know not every man is a rapist, or a murderer, or violent. They don’t need you to tell them.

Second, it’s defensive. When people are defensive, they aren’t listening to the other person; they’re busy thinking of ways to defend themselves. I watched this happen on Twitter, over and again.

Third, the people saying it aren’t furthering the conversation, they’re sidetracking it. The discussion isn’t about the men who aren’t a problem. (Though, I’ll note, it can be. I’ll get back to that.) Instead of being defensive and distracting from the topic at hand, try staying quiet for a while and actually listening to what the thousands upon thousands of women discussing this are saying.

Read More: http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/05/27/not_all_men_how_discussing_women_s_issues_gets_derailed.html

[Uncle Joe]

1. There are most definitely men that have a major problem in relating to women as an equal human being

Logic dictates that it is among this group of men that an unstable minority would be the primary pool which make up abusers, rapists and mudererers.

Thanks for the thread sheshe.

[William769]

2. Since I can't say what I really need to say here, I'll just say this.

Kick & recommended.

[sheshe2]

3. I thank you William!

[MrModerate]

4. I find this depressing . . .

Because according to the author, attempting to raise the issue of balance in this discussion is "unhelpful" and "a distraction."

And because I haven't walked a mile in a woman's shoes, my observation that, yes, #NotAllMen are like Rodger is not a meaningful point of view.

So I do what I generally do when something terrible like this happens and there's an inescapable gender element to it: I back off, decide to say nothing, and let the debate rage among those whose passions are inflamed by the latest horror.

Is this a desirable result? People turning off the concern? I'd think not.

[sheshe2]

7. "Is this a desirable result? People turning off the concern? I'd think not."

That is not what is being said here.

This is....

Earlier, I mentioned that the conversation is about the men who are the problem, not the ones who aren’t. Well, at this point, a conversation needs to be had about them, too. Even though we may not be the direct problem, we still participate in the cultural problem. If we’re quiet, we’re part of the problem. If we don’t listen, if we don’t help, if we let things slide for whatever reason, then we’re part of the problem, too.

We men need to do better.

[MrModerate]

10. And I'm happy to see that acknowledgment . . .

Although it seems to be lost in the cacaphony.

And I'd be happy to engage in a conversation about the degree to which individuals are responsible for healing all of the ills of the world, including the ones they don't cause.

And I mean that seriously, in the sense of "all that evil needs to triumph is for good people to do nothing." It's a real question.

Why isn't it the most important question?

[calimary]

56. Good point, sheshe2.

VERY good point. Staying silent won't do anything at all.

[sheshe2]

63. Good to see you hear calimary.

I could use your support!

Always love what you have to say.

[ProfessorGAC]

165. Calimary!!!

I haven't seen your posts in a while! Have i just been missing them, or have you been on a break?

How are things?

[calimary]

172. Oh I'm still loud-mouthing it around, I'm afraid...

Hi ProfessorGAC!!! Thanks for the shout! No break, though. I can't stay away from DU too long! Even with the boys on their way to the Warped Tour. They're on the road now, out of the house, and it's kinda quiet here on the Western Front. For the moment...

[ProfessorGAC]

191. Well G'luck To You and Yours

Sorry i didn't notice you here. My bad

[geek tragedy]

15. well, do you actually read and try to learn something from those

who are 'inflamed' by it?

if so, then something is being accomplished

[roguevalley]

31. I feel that the author is saying listen now. Listen to the women

and learn something you didn't know. We know all men aren't like this but we need men to listen NOW. Tell us your heart later. Listen to us now. We are getting KILLED.

[MrModerate]

33. Point taken. n/t

[bettyellen]

81. and ask your friends here and in RL to listen too. To pay a bit of attention and

maybe you will notice how persavive some of these fucked up messages about women are. That would be awesome!

Thank you.

[sheshe2]

70. Actually we are being KILLED!

There are a lot of facts out there that people do not know. We must open our eyes and our ears! Yes indeed! Listen to us!

You must have a woman in your life, at least one that you are willing to fight for. Think about that. Just think about that!

[Jamastiene]

75. I wish that graphic that shows the number of dead was in an OP

So, I could Rec it and Tweet it.

[sheshe2]

80. Ha!

Here you go~

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025003403

Thanks Jamastiene

[Jamastiene]

88. Thank you.

Rec'ed and Tweeted.

[sheshe2]

90. ...

[sheshe2]

86. In find this depressing too!

Time and time again men tell us what we should feel and how we should feel it.

Have you ever!!!! I mean ever, had someone grope you breast unasked and unsolicited? Have you!?

Has this happened to you? Would you find this fun...or at least funny!? You could not possibly walk a mile in our shoes. I doubt that you have the strength to put up with what we do.

[MrModerate]

105. In answer to your question . . .

No, none of those things have happened to me. Nor do I fear the equivalent things happening to me because, in my experience, they just don't. (Yes, of course men are also subject to sexual violence, but rarely when compared to women.)

So I can never genuinely understand what that aspect of your life is like. And I would never (and have not) told you what you should feel and how you should feel it.

I ask the same courtesy of you. And for you to reconsider offering uninformed opinions about my "strength."

[1StrongBlackMan]

176. I know it has been said ...

But what you see as offering "balance" to the discussion is seen by those most immediate to the discussion as your not listening to/minimizing their discussion by making it about you.

Frequently, in discussions of race, the comment, &quot even) white liberals can be racists/do racist stuff" ... and guess what (among) the first responses is ... "Not all white people are racist!"

That response is not helpful, or offering balance, primarily, because that does not answer what was said.

[MrModerate]

195. "Those most immediate to the discussion . . ."

Because of the nature of the crime and Rodger's insane misogyny, I can understand why women would think they are "most immediate to the discussion."

I don't agree — thinking that issues of madness and the official response to madness are also very important — but in such a highly charged environment, It's clear that my voice can't be heard and that my point of view is resented.

So I will withdraw from the discussion.

And that's what I'd call a textbook example of "unhelpful."

[1StrongBlackMan]

207. Well from one man to another ...

a man that has a measure of understand on the topic, albeit it imperfect, from discussion of race, as a Black man speaking with non-Black people, let me offer you what every/most feminists, if not women, have heard you as saying:

Why won't these emotional creatures (e.g., women) listen to/accept my dispassionate (i.e., reasoned and reasonable) opinion, informed by my vicarious and unaffected experience, as equally informed and just as valid, as their life experience?

That might not be what you intended, but that is what is heard.

[MrModerate]

215. I think you're probably right.

And because that interpretation is grossly unfair (to the very concept of 'discussion,' if not to me), I think I'll talk about something else.

[1StrongBlackMan]

216. That is probably for the best ...

but I recommend, rather than abandoning the discussion, spend your time listening without feeling compelled to respond. All to often, our need to respond (i.e., defend our position) interferes with our ability to hear what is ACTUALLY being said.

I've learned that the hard way.

[MrModerate]

217. Wise words. Still makes me sad.

[Thor_MN]

5. Why do women need to say all men if they know it isn't true?

Absolutes are virtually guaranteed to be incorrect, and insisting on absolutes (which tends to be a conservative trait, but ignore that as I don't want to sidetrack) tends to alienate and end discussion.

If I were to say that all women were XXXXXX, I'd be roundly castigated, not to mention incorrect.

So why is it important not to even question saying all men, when we all know it isn't true?

I'm trying to understand the hypocrisy.

[sheshe2]

8. Where are women saying that it is all men? nt

[Thor_MN]

12. "Not all men" didn't just appear out of nowhere.

It is a response to articles that are saying "All men." It is a counter argument. And one that I don't care to engage in.

My question is about the posts that attract the "Not all men." I did phrase the question badly in saying "Why do women", I should have said "Why do posters". Whether it is implied or explicit, those posts are saying "All men."

I'd like to know why the hypocrisy shouldn't be questioned.

[geek tragedy]

16. "not all men" arose from men who want to derail the subject and are more interested in portraying

themselves as the victims of a feminist lynch mob than listening to what feminists have to say.

As we are witnessing in this exchange

[Thor_MN]

20. You really didn't answer my question.

You sidestepped around it. Why is it ever appropriate to stereotype a group of people?

[geek tragedy]

23. why are you unable to ask a questions that aren't loaded and accusatory?

Second question: see what I did there?

[Thor_MN]

24. I question hypocrisy where ever I see it.

And you still are side stepping.

[geek tragedy]

27. No, you are accusing and derailing.

No one here is engaged in stereotyping. You are just whining about stereotyping of men because that is the only conversation you are willing to have.

I am not sidestepping your bad faith accusation masquerading as a question. I am refuting its validity and basis in reality.

[Thor_MN]

40. Please cite my whining. I asked a legitimate question and you are avoiding it like the plague.

You are making baseless accusations of me, while all I have done is asked a simple question, when is stereotyping appropriate?

Apparently you are fine with hypocrisy. I happen to dislike it.

IMO, hypocrisy is a bad thing and adhering to absolutes is a major cause. Conservatives tend towards binary thinking, Black/White, True/False and it forces them into being major hypocrites, as they can't deal with shades of grey. They can't reconcile the illogical nature of their tortured absolutes, so rail against any that would argue that reality isn't that simple.

So I guess we are finished, you are OK with stereotyping for any reason and are blind to hypocrisy.

[geek tragedy]

45. Your accusation of people here supporting stereotyping is blatantly bad faith and designed

for confrontation and derailing. You falsely accuse people of supporting stereotyping, and then whine when they don't treat your malicious accusations with respect.

Here's a newsflash: someone like you pulls this shit ON EVERY FEMINIST DISCUSSION in GD and in every non-moderated discussion ON THE FUCKING INTERNET.

Not all men are like you in this regard, but those of you who are like this are so predictable it's tedious.

[Thor_MN]

55. Again, you can't answer a simple question.

Wouldn't it be more correct for these posts to qualify in the simple addition of "Many" or "Most" or must we always go full accusatory 'All XXXX are ZZZZZ!!!!"

Throwing absolutes around is guaranteed to result in arguments. "IS". "ISN'T". "IS TOO!!!". "IS NOT!!!". Sounds like four year olds.

That many of the posts on this topic imply "All Men" is inarguable. If we can't agree that a qualification that removes that implication would be appropriate, then you support stereotyping and I can't do anything about that.

[geek tragedy]

60. again, you're fabricating claims that people are going around saying "all men are rapists/murderers/

unable to pick out the right paint color."

I am a man. I know when I'm being stereotyped by women, by other men, by the media.

This stereotyping that you claim is happening? you're imagining it, to be charitable

"not all men" is not a contribution, it's a turd in the punch bowl. There's a reason why 95% of the feminists in a discussion will just roll their eyes when a man drops it.

[Thor_MN]

69. Sorry, I've been through this plenty tonight and you are wrong.

There was a post titled "Men, and many women..." I asked the poster why the qualification for women, but not men and got the same bullshit "You are being defensive/sidetracking" non-answers that I am seeing here.

I've never claimed "Not all men" was a contribution, those are your words. I'm asking why, (if it ever happens, since no one apparently believes that it does) it is acceptable to include an entire group of people in a negative claim?

[geek tragedy]

74. I disagree that it is acceptable or accurate.

On the other hand, when I hear black folks talking about "white people this" and "white people that" I don't get offended, I listen. Same deal with discussions on gender.

If I want to demonstrate that all men are not guilty of the offense in question, I express solidarity instead of insisting on a correction.

Which do you think makes the point of "not all men"--saying "not all men" or being a good listener and ally?

[Thor_MN]

85. I find hypocrisy distasteful.

When I see a trending rise of hypocritical meme, I will call people on it. I have no arguments that there exist men are who are rapists/misogynists. But I do not accept that "Men are rapists/misogynists."

To me, there isn't much difference between conservative hypocrisy on any given topic or the subject tonight.

Personally, I don't find feeding hypocrisy by ignoring it to be helpful to anything other than perpetuating hate.

[geek tragedy]

89. You are choosing a very peculiar semantic quibble

over which to expend so much outrage.

[Thor_MN]

93. Where do you see outrage? I'm asking a question which people appear fearful to answer.

I'm getting accused of lying, being defensive, and sidetracking. I'm seeing people evade the question in every way possible.

I asked a simple question, which you have been the only person to actually answer, albeit after I turned it into a hypothetical. I do thank you for that.

[intaglio]

112. Not all men derails the conversation - deliberately

There is a general, passive, culture amongst men that accepts misogyny and discrimination against women. That was the point of the OP and you have attempted to derail the conversation by whining that "not all men" is a valid response.

Yes, it is a whine and you are emitting it.

[Thor_MN]

120. Did you read the OP? It is not about San Diego.

I never have and never will accept misogyny and discrimination against women. What I don't understand is why it should be acceptable to imply that there is a general, passive, culture amongst all men that has any single unifying concept. The very notion is inconceivable, just as the notion that all women are insert stereotype here is ridiculous beyond contempt.

Are there misogynists? Certainly. Are all men misogynists? Certainly not. Starting a conversation that implies that all me are misogynists, or at least support it is unproductive.

The only whining I am hearing is from people that are defending their right to stereotype as fervently as a gun lover defends the 2nd Amendment.

[intaglio]

128. #YesAllWomen is not about San Diego, it is about what women experience every day

#NotAllMen is not about San Diego; it is about evading complicity with misogyny.

Another diversion on your part.

[intaglio]

212. Whining weasel words

You are not complaining about hypocrisy only defending the unsustainable hatred and oppression of women. You are either blind to reality or deliberately attempting to disrupt on behalf of your "dudebros". Being generous I'll assume it is the former and so finish by saying "there are none so blind as those who will not see"

[Thor_MN]

218. There are none so blind as those who knee jerk attack.

You don't know me, you are blind to what I have said and you are a rabid attack dog that is going to bust the chops of any person who dares to to ask questions, even when the do not apply to your sacred cow. You refuse to even consider that YOU are the one derailing this conversation with your incessant projection. So convinced are you that your shouting is correct, you can't even comprehend how wrong you are, even when it has been proven to you. You think I'm defending something when I am not. You accuse me being aligned with some sort of hashtag twitter thing (whatever the hell that is).

My words are my words, they are not associated with anything that people who like short chunks of text splash about. So maybe try reading my words rather than knee jerking your insulting responses. Because if you actually read, you might just see that what you are supporting is stereotyping. You wouldn't even say that in general stereotyping is wrong. So either you are fine with the crap that women have put up with, or you are a hypocrite. Your choice, you get to pick, but you are one or the other. You don't get to say that stereotyping is just fine and decry stereotyping of women.

[intaglio]

111. You have been through nothing

You have chosen victimisation as your chosen method to duck, dive and otherwise excuse a vile minority of men who are enabled by the passive acceptance of misogyny as the default standard.

You appear to be actively supporting misogyny by attempting to derail the conversation.

[Thor_MN]

121. Been through nothing... I don't know what is supposed to mean.

Derail what conversation? The conversation about "Not All Men"? Might I suggest that you read the OP to see what it is about?

And while you are at it, please check your attitude. I have not said a single word supporting misogyny and am insulted that you suggest that I do. If you want to hurl personal insults, I can oblige, but then that you attempting to derail this subthread and a clear case of deflection.

[intaglio]

129. Yes and #NotAllMen is a whiny "not my fault" excuse

From a group of people who are complicit in the misogyny evident in everyday society.

And I have made clear, as does the OP and the other opinions linked that supporting #NotAllMen makes you, personally, complicit in misogyny.

[Thor_MN]

139. Again, I have never used a hashtag in this post

I do not support misogyny, and accusing me of doing so is insulting.

Maybe if you stop, take a breath and not try to impose your misconceptions on my words, you would be able to, just for a second, consider if stereotyping of any sort, of anyone, anywhere, is an acceptable thing.

You are clearly reading non-existent content into my posts.

[intaglio]

140. Hard luck I did

and even without the hashtag it is a whiny little excuse from men, like you, complicit in misogyny,

[Thor_MN]

142. Projection.

Please stop the insults, they are saying more about you than me.

[intaglio]

150. No I am telling you that you personally, along with others like you

are complicit in misogyny. I am saying that with or without the hash not all men is a pitiful whine attempting to divert attention. I am saying that you and others like you attempt to make the conversation about men and not about women

[Thor_MN]

152. No, you are projecting your desire to argue with someone who is doing that

Again this conversation s not about misogyny, it about conversations about misogyny. If you cant understand that, please go find a post about misogyny in which to attempt to force someone to argue with you.

[intaglio]

173. Ah, so it's all meta and has no bearing upon actual misogyny

Another post of yours that highlights your own blindness and, yes, misogyny.

The OP is about the misogyny displayed by the claim "not all men" but no, according to you it is a conversation about that conversation. That is where you want the conversation to be, it is the place that you wish the conversation to be and you have made multiple attempts to derail the conversation into that area.

[Thor_MN]

180. In a word, Bullshit. You obviously have not read the OP, or are incapable of comprehension.

I am getting quite tired of your personal attacks. The OP is about a person's belief that Not All Men adds nothing to a conversation about gender issues. So this is a conversation about conversations.

You desperately want to twist it away from that, as it it isn't you have proven over an over to be a bullying, bigoted liar.

[intaglio]

143. You are complicit in misogyny as every post you have made on the subject shows

You just refuse to see it because it would harm your, probable, opinion of your self as a "white knight"

[Thor_MN]

146. Inserting your own hates and prejudices is telling.

You have an apparent fear of even considering if there are any posts that contain inappropriate stereotyping.

Can I assume that you believe that in all posts that containing anything to do with gender issues, that accusing all of one gender of having a specific trait or behavior is appropriate?

[seabeyond]

149. this is beyond ridiculous. derailing to the point of saying, anywhere in the universe any time,

anyone ever say ALL men

see see

it happens.

that is why we do not have to listen to you women

that is what you have reduced this conversation to and still you sit there thinking you have a valid argument. that is the blind.

[Thor_MN]

156. That is the assertion you are making.

You are claiming that no posts contain stereotyping of the all men are xxxxxx nature. I have cited examples, and it is quite insane to contemplate that none exists.

I am asking if it is ever appropriate to stereotype and you are dodging that simple question. Simple yes or no question, should fit into to your binary thinking quite nicely. Instead you personally attack, make wild accusations out of no where, do anything to avoid answering.

[intaglio]

154. And you accuse me of projection?

You who are spending all this time trying to excuse the ridiculous imposture that is "Not all men"?

I am saying that the vast majority of men are complicit in misogyny because it is ingrained into the culture and religion of so much of current society.

I can even say I too have been complicit in the past and that there are probably still elements in myself that I have not recognised.

I am saying that until recently this misogyny has been unexamined.

I am saying that you and others like you on DU exemplify this blindness and that you are completely unwilling to examine your preconceptions.

[seabeyond]

159. intaglio. i am saying ...

I too have been complicit in the past and that there are probably still elements in myself that I have not recognised.

i am saying most all women can probably honestly say this even most feminists cause misogyny is so ingrained even us women are conditioned.

thanks for the voice. and good post

[nomorenomore08]

68. Maybe because saying "men" with no qualifiers makes it harder for the rest of us to just assume

we have nothing to do with what ails our culture. Every individual who makes up a society has the responsibility to, at the least, try to be a decent human and encourage others to do the same. Adding qualifiers allows one to simply say "not my problem" and be content with complacency.

[Raksha]

194. True, and they ALWAYS think they are being so fucking original too,

and so fucking "nuanced." You can just see them patting themselves on the back and congratulating themselves on being critical thinkers. Like this one with his condescending remarks about black/white thinking and stereotyping, etc. I've been seeing the same damn M.O. on GD for YEARS in GD and elsewhere on the Internet, and I'm as fed up with it as you are.

Re Here's a newsflash: someone like you pulls this shit ON EVERY FEMINIST DISCUSSION in GD and in every non-moderated discussion ON THE FUCKING INTERNET.

Not all men are like you in this regard, but those of you who are like this are so predictable it's tedious.

[seabeyond]

32. you really need to read before you argue. no. not all men, was not a counter to ANYONE saying ALL

men.

you went into fight mode over nothing.

[geek tragedy]

39. not over nothing, this is like Republicans who complain about 'the race card' being played

it's not a grievance, it's a tactic

[seabeyond]

46. anyway geek. the article was awesome. as i was reading, i was thinking about men like you.

that have been able to cross the line. whatever it took for you to be able to do that, i would find it interesting. my son and i were talking about that the other day. he says... people know, men know intellectually that inequality is wrong. but... for whatever reason, they hold themselves back from taking that step over. where they let go of their privilege and entitlement. where they are no longer a part of the problem, but a part of the solution.

i cant remember exactly how he said.

but.... in the article this man clearly did. and was able to express it.

[geek tragedy]

48. it took the willingness to listen. some men just don't feel that they

have any obligation, or even interest, in listening to women.

it's the old joke, just nod the head, say "I know" and think about football

[seabeyond]

53. did something click. did something make you say... oh fuck. i really was not seeing.

and then it became a once seen, cannot unsee.

or all gradual

i know, none of my business, but i may just start asking the handful of men that i see really get it like you do.

all us women pretty much say that it was something... clicked. and the once seen, cant unsee scenario.

[geek tragedy]

58. marriage has improved my listening skills and 'get it' capabilities

in the past I was really too self-conscious to really plug into what women were saying. learning occurred at a more behavioral level (oops, better not do/say that again) rather than understanding.

there was no eureka moment, just getting more and more comfortable with the idea that the world did not revolve around my gonads or my ego

[seabeyond]

64. i understand that. thank you for taking the time to explain it to me. i do appreciate it. nt

[Skidmore]

109. That is the first time I've seen a man own this and

I'm an old lady. Thank you. Many women have lived whole lives tiptoeing through the landmines and living in fear. It would be so wonderful to eliminate as many of those mines as possible for our daughters and granddaughters even though it may not have been possible during my own life. Please continue to listen and get your friends to listen because this whole issue really is a matter of life and death to so many women and girls in this nation and the world.

[prairierose]

168. ...exactly..it moves the conversation, if there is one,

off the original topic and onto the topic of men. I have to hand it to that guy...he stuck with it and never allowed that sub-thread to waver from the topic of men.

[freshwest]

201. Yes, and it did what was intended. It wore me out as it was offtopic and never ended.

The intransigence worked, a lot of people won't go through the thread as that wasted a lot of time and accomplished not one single thing but derailing.

[Thor_MN]

44. Absolutes will destroy your arguments every time.

Do you understand the meaning of "Not"?

I have read many threads on the UCSB shootings. Many imply "All Men." Not all of them, but many.

I'm not in fight mode, maybe you are. I've asked a simple question that apparently enrages people.

When is it appropriate to stereotype?

[geek tragedy]

47. "many imply 'all men'"

No, that's just you being oversensitive. No one is saying that.

You should really stop trying to divide DU with this kind of divisive rhetoric.

[Thor_MN]

59. Not not trying to divide anyone.

I'm asking when is it appropriate to stereotype. Can we agree that that the posts that you believe don't exist should not imply that "All Men" are (rapists/misogynists)? It's not going to cost you anything, since you don't believe that they exist.

How about this, if there WERE to be a post that says "All men", would that be appropriate?

[geek tragedy]

65. If there were to be a post that said "all men" then it would invite strict scrutiny and should

face a great deal of skepticism, if not outright rejection, depending on what the claim is.

ironically, you know who does the most stereotyping of men? it's other men, trying to make excuses for other men. "all married men want to fuck other women" :"every man is going to stare at a woman under those circumstances" etc etc

[seabeyond]

67. all men watch porn and if your man says he doesnt he is lying. yup. nt

[nomorenomore08]

73. If there were to be a post that says "Allman," would that be appropriate?

In all seriousness, I don't know what's got you so upset. Uncomfortable though it might be, we need to have these conversations.

[seabeyond]

51. you are making it up. you said that 'notallmen" was started to counter "allmen". there was no

"allmen"

that is the reality. take it and run. do your arguing.

Why is it not helpful to say “not all men are like that”? For lots of reasons. For one, women know this. They already know not every man is a rapist, or a murderer, or violent. They don’t need you to tell them.

it is that simple. everyone knows not all men are mass murders, rapists or violent.

it really is that simple

since EVERYONE knows not ALL men are rapist, murders, mass murderers, i think we can say that no.... no one said or implied all men are rapists, murders or mass murders.

[Thor_MN]

61. Same question to you.

How about this, if there WERE to be a post that says "All men", would that be appropriate?

Is it possible to answer that hypothetical?

[seabeyond]

71. no. i addressed your post. what you said. that "notallmen" was countering an "allmen".

this is not about me. it is about what you said.

now.... that i spelled it out for you, you want to start something else.

no

you did not address what i wrote.

[Thor_MN]

78. Sorry lost track in all the people kicking me around.

Not means negative. Fairly simple concept,

Sorry if my phasing appeared to imply that that every single use of "Not All Men" was simply to counter "All Men." I acknowledge that there are jackholes out there that are using it to distract. But some of it is in response to "All Men" or an implied "All Men."

Which you appear to not believe. Which is why I asked the hypothetical. If we could find that post, in your opinion, would that mythical, mystical phrasing be appropriate?

[seabeyond]

82. i would bet i have read a zillion more on all this than you. i have seen no all men rape ... ever

the only time i hear all men rape, is when men (that is not all men) jump on a thread talking about rape and say... feminists say all men rape.

i have seen no all men rape, murder or commit mass murder.

that simple.

as the op said, and as i highlighted for you. women ALREADY know all men do not rape murder commit mass murder.

we have husbands, sons, friends, nephews, fathers, brothers....

we know.

all the people kicking me around.

no one is kicking you around. your said something that was not correct. people were correcting your error. instead of acknowledging or accepting it, you know, owning hte error, you double downed and kept it going. all people did was not allow a nontruth to stand.

[Thor_MN]

92. So you are unable to even contemplate a hypothetical question.

I don't think that you can prove that there are no threads implying all men are XXXX (in fact, it is impossible for you to do so.)

"as the op said, and as i highlighted for you. women ALREADY know all men do not rape murder commit mass murder. "

Yes, been there, understood that(before my first reply), got the T-shirt, asked my question. And you have been unable to even consider it as a hypothetical.

"all people did was not allow a nontruth to stand." http://sync.democraticunderground.com/10025008966

Please do not call me a liar, when it is impossible for you to claim to hold the truth.

[seabeyond]

95. unable? of course i am ... able.

the only time i hear all men rape, is when men (that is not all men) jump on a thread talking about rape and say... feminists say all men rape.

the post you replied to, i did exactly the same. men. i did not qualify with an amount. merely men. i say men because it is only men that have done it and i do not feel the need to always qualify by an amount. most, some, a few, a handful, a lot, a vast majority....

just men.

not all men.

[Thor_MN]

97. Able, but unwilling.

As you can't even say stereotyping is not acceptable in a hypothetical condition, I can only assume that you support hypocrisy in this case.

Goodnight.

[seabeyond]

100. no. as in, that was not the issue and had nothing to do with what i was addressing with your post.

you change the goal post. i specifically called you out, in the derailing of this thread, putting up part of the article that specifically countered what you were accusing women of. that is what i was addressing.

you did not say, ya, i was wrong. didnt even read the article

instead, you ignored what i was saying, and wanted to play a different game.

i am unwilling to play your game.

good night.

[Thor_MN]

103. I read the article and specifically chose this post to ask my question.

As my question is relevant to the topic at hand. The OP not about the late asshole in San Diego, it is about conversations.

Change the goal posts? WOW. There's some major hypocrisy and deflection. I have been asking the same question for the last several hours and you dance around it, changing the topic, playing games, refusing to answer it even as a hypothetical.

The games are all you, I'm not going to repeat the ONE question I have asked another time as you won't answer it, leaving me to assume that you support hypocrisy when it suits your purposes.

[seabeyond]

104. i addressed your false statement. you are demanding that i answer your questions? no. that is not

the way it works. you put up a nontruth. i addressed it and am done.

you may want me to play with a hypothetical. i do not want to. i do not have to.

no, means, no.

[Thor_MN]

106. Games.

I asked my question in my first post.

Your assertion that there are no posts on the internet that imply all men are xxxx or that all of them are created by men is beyond ridiculous. Totally unprovable and utterly false.

Like I said, you appear to support hypocrisy and stereotyping so much that you can't even say it's not OK in a made up scenario.

If you are not totally illogical, then you would be fine with an OP titled "Women are XXXXX" (insert the derogatory phrase of your choice.)

Think on that for awhile....

Have a hypocritical night.

[noiretextatique]

107. I think you demonstrated the OP very nicely

You don't want a discussion...you want to dominate. You are stuck on a ridiculous semantic problem that you created yourself. And not once did you address the OP. Instead, you did exactly what the OP is describing. It is not about you or which phrases you approve. It is about listening to women.

[Thor_MN]

122. Wow, feel free to insert your prejudices...

I do not wish to dominate anything. I would like to see equality, but what I have seen in this discussion is that what appears to be desired is not equality. I did not create anything other than a question, which most people appear loathe to answer. Is it ever acceptable to stereotype? The consensus answer here is apparently yes, it is fine to stereotype any group.

[noiretextatique]

169. poor you

You are such a victim.

[Thor_MN]

181. Please cite where I have claimed victimhood.

All I've been saying is that stereotyping is unacceptable in ANY form, but a flood of hypocrites have swarmed out to defend their right to stereotype. So poor you, hypocrite.

[noiretextatique]

211. no...it is about your fragile ego

And your need to deflect and dominate. Nice try on the semantic nanny thing, though.

[intaglio]

114. No, you tried to deflect the conversation in your first post

You implied victimhood for men with your first post.

[Thor_MN]

123. Again what conversation?

Is it ever acceptable to stereotype? Does it ever further a conversation?

[intaglio]

131. The conversation you, repeatedly, try to derail

The conversation that shows women are victims everyday of misogyny and objectification and that whining #NotAllMen is an attempt to deny that fact and to belittle the women who experience this prejuduce.

[Thor_MN]

135. Can you please cite where I have ever used a hashtag?

I have not once used the # symbol prior to just now. Perhaps you made some incorrect assumptions that I was talking about some twitter thing. My question was and is When is it acceptable to stereotype?

[intaglio]

137. Another derail.

No you did not use the hashtag, I did. Hard luck.

You are the one claiming that the whiny little excuse of Not All Men is valid.

We are the ones calling you on that idiotic claim and citing #YesAllWomen as evidence.

[Thor_MN]

144. Your misreading of my words is not a argument

Projecting your prejudices into my posts is futile. Once again, please stop the personal insults.

[intaglio]

148. Oh, it's all about you it it and not the whining?

The whining that Not all men are like that and that supporting such claims makes the supporter complicit in the everyday misogyny all round you.

[alittlelark]

200. Geez dude, you sound like a broken record!!

STOP and re-read your many, many posts in this thread. I started reading this thread 20 minutes ago... Good Grief - your posts are all sounding the same.... Go to sleep, turn on the TV, or read a book.

This is the kind of thread you will (hopefully) regret in the morning.

[Thor_MN]

204. Geez honey, the responses are even more like a broken record.

The people who have chosen to attack and accuse, rather than to admit the even hypothetical possibility of a stereotypical (BTW, if you are bristling at being called honey, reread your post) thread have been the broken record. My posts have been questions, their responses have been knee jerk accusations. I have, as calmly as possible, repeated the question, rather than counter their insults with more insults.

I don't know why, but I despise hypocrisy. I have seen lots of it in the responses I received. I don't ever regret calling out hypocrites.

[intaglio]

113. Citations of threads making your claimed implications or you are talking out of your cloaca

Not all men deflects the argument and tries to say that men (in general) suffer because this tragedy has let people to judge all men.

#YesAllWomen shows every woman has to judge every male stranger (and many of the male friends and relatives) they encounter as a potential rapists, killers or muggers. If you have read Phaedra Starling's excellent blog post you will know that Schroedinger's Rapist is a thing. Of course I suspect you will only see what you want to see.

You are the one fighting to deny the experience of women and you whine that others are fighting back.

[Thor_MN]

125. Where did you pull that out of?

I have cited examples and it is ridiculous to contend that there never has been a post that implies that all men are xxxxxx.

I see many things, but what I've seen in this post is that there is some unexplained compulsion to avoid saying that stereotyping of any sort is not acceptable in this context. I can't explain it, which is why I asked the question. Perhaps it's "cake and eat it too" desire for more than equality. Perhaps it's payback for centuries of being stereotyped. Perhaps it's a megalomaniac attempt to take over the world. I'm left with exactly one response out of many people who have chosen to attack and insult, rather than to consider the question. I guess most people do not desire equality after all.

Every person that everyone encounters is a potential killer, mugger, rapist, friend, ally. We can chose to live our lives in constant fear or we can assess the risks and take appropriate actions. Accusing all people that are unlike oneself of being one thing or another is xenophobia.

[intaglio]

134. You are now attempting to claim that you meant the entire internet

but you are implying that such attitudes are present on DU

citations

[Thor_MN]

136. They are present on DU threads, but I never limited my scope.

Please stop trying to deflect your prejudices to me.

[intaglio]

138. If they are present cite them

Don't make claims about DU members you cannot support.

[Thor_MN]

141. I have, but you are only reading what you want to read.

You want to make me into misogynist. For some reason, you feel that need. You continue to attack me. You continue to claim that there are no extant threads anywhere that imply all men are XXXXX, which would be obvious stereotyping, and given that most people understand that stereotyping is not OK, hypocritical.

I would ask you to take your own advice.

[intaglio]

145. You have provided evidence you are complicit in misogyny

Therefore I have not prejudged you. Nor have I prejudged those who whine "Not all men are like that" and others who post to twitter on #NotAllMen

You personally are have made yourself complicit in the systemic misogyny present in society and you have spent considerable effort attempting to derail the conversation on DU away from discussing that.

BTW where are those DU posts and OPs that blame "all men"?

[Thor_MN]

151. Please cite evidence, rather than what you are making up in your mind.

You have already admitted in the case of hashtags that you mistakenly assumed that I was referring to them. Given that you have been mistaken in that context, don't you suppose that it is possible that you are making up the rest of what you are reading into my words?

As the OP is about conversations about misogyny/gender issues (kind of meta) it is insane to accuse me of derailing this conversation. in fact, it is you derailing, trying to imply that this post is about anything else, rather than that one simple question, is it ever appropriate to stereotype?


I already answered that question, seek and you shall find. If you are too busy to do that, please prove that there are no posts, ever, anywhere, that blame all men, because that is what you are asserting.

[intaglio]

155. The evidence is in your posts

but, as observed, you are blind to that for whatever reason.

[Thor_MN]

157. Specific examples please, and don't go on with your wild accusation that I support misogyny

that exist only in your head.

I have repeated asked a simple question, often in forms such that it costs no one anything to say that stereotyping is unacceptable.

Yet you somehow twist that in your mind into me being misogynist or supporting misogyny.

Can we agree that stereotyping (in general, no specific form) is unacceptable?

[intaglio]

175. Read your own posts

Everyone else has seen your bigotry but you have not.

[Thor_MN]

177. Good god, it is bigotry to even QUESTION if stereotyping is ever acceptable?

What planet to you live on? Please understand, as you have already been wrong, that this is not an OP about gender issues. So you can take your knee jerk, Pavlovian drooling claims that I am somehow derailing a gender issue post and shove them wherever you find most uncomfortable.

I am really getting tired of this "LALALALALALAL" response. You are wrong.

YOU are the derailer. YOU are the bigot.

[sheshe2]

41. Well...

Before what I’m saying starts edging into mansplaining, let me note that also over the weekend, the hashtag #YesAllWomen started. It was a place for women to counter the #NotAllMen distraction, and to state clearly and concisely what they actually and for real have to deal with. All the time.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/bad_astronomy/2014/05/27/not_all_men_how_discussing_women_s_issues_gets_derailed.html

And...

Your Guide to 'Not All Men,' the Best Meme on the Internet

The universe holds immutable truths: matter cannot be created or destroyed, an object in motion will stay at motion unless acted on by an outside force, and any time a woman points out sexist bullshit, some hero's opinion will gallantly ride in on a fedora, chiming in "Not All Men!"

Now, thanks to the internet's collective sillybrain, Not All Men! has gone from an irritating trope to a funny, giddy skewering of point-missing folks whose knee jerk reaction as part of a privileged group is to defend themselves against implications that they, as members of the complained-about privileged group, might be complicit in the status quo. It's defensive bullshit that doesn't really do anything but prove the bearer of Not All Men is more concerned with saving face for themselves than, you know, actually acknowledging the concern that another person is expressing. In the Not All Men mind, it's worse to be called sexist than to actually be a victim of sexism. Here are some typical places to find Not All Men in the wild:

College women getting raped, like, all the time? Not all men!
Street harassment? Not all men!
Domestic violence? Not all men!
Bosses who talk over you in meetings? Not all men!
Women still do most of the housework even though they work jobs with the same hours as men? Not all men!
Etc. Forever.
The exact phrase Not All Men needn't be used in order for the basic idea to be deployed as a derailing tactic. Here's a good example of a "Not All Men"-less Not All Men incident:

http://jezebel.com/your-guide-to-not-all-men-the-best-meme-on-the-interne-1573535818



It's the menz answer not the womenz...got it?

[scruboak]

161. +1. n/t

[sheshe2]

183. Thank you, scruboak.

And welcome to DU~

[intaglio]

110. NOT a response to this tragedy and not in response to articles saying all men

It was coined by the so-called white knight community to claim that feminists and feminism were blaming all men.

You are claiming exactly the same thing; that any post about this misogyny is blaming all men. They are not. Try reading the Phil Plait's article in the OP. Read John Scalzi's "Four Levels of Discrimination" and Chuck Wendig'd "Not All Men, But Still Too Many Men" to which Phil links.

"Not All Men" is an attempt to derail the conversation by playing the victim card.

[scruboak]

164. You say it "didn't just appear out of nowhere"

and yet you have failed to post even a single link supporting your assertion. I submit that it might have appeared out of your head.

[Thor_MN]

182. Incorrect. I have given several examples, but the knee jerk reactions in this post are blind to them

As you haven't been so over the top, try typing "All men benefit from rape" and ""Men, and many women, have a problem accepting the misogyny of this tragedy..." into the Google search at the top of the page. What did you find? Multiple posts that say all men and imply all men (If you want to argue the implied one, answer the question of why women is qualified and men is not)

So, surprise, surprise, these posts exist on DU and elsewhere. They contain stereotyping, which is apparently just fine according to the majority here, which makes them hypocrites, unless they are OK with stereotyping of any group. They couldn't even deign to say that a hypothetical, nonspecific post that contains a negative stereotype of some sort is a bad thing. The hate and hypocrisy is strong in these threads - there's several that are angry for being called out on it.

[passiveporcupine]

9. You are the only one in this thread saying "all men"

and you are instantly on the defensive. See how that works? You are so defensive, you are hearing "all men" even when it hasn't been said. You are creating the very issue this OP is addressing. You are so busy creating your own dialogue, you aren't listening to what is being said.

[Thor_MN]

11. I was hoping to have a discussion, but I see that you are antagonistic.

A large number of the posts on the topic of the shootings at UCSB imply "All men". The "Not all men" is a obvious response to posts that say "All men". "Not all men" does not occur in a vacuum.

I can see that you fall firmly into to attack mode as soon as I raise a question, so you will be going on ignore as soon as I post this

I'm not defending anyone, I just would like to know why people feel it is appropriate to stereotype a group, while decrying being stereotyped. I don't understand the blatant hypocrisy.

[geek tragedy]

18. What you offered was textbook derailing and trolling, complete with passive aggressive "why you so

mean to me, you hypocritical, antagonistic attack feminists?"

You came in asking loaded, accusatory questions to start a fight.

I am sure the feminists here will be relieved if you actually do decide to stop derailing

[seabeyond]

30. you are suggesting so many are saying, all men commit mass murder? intellectually, common damn sense

you are really saying that so many people, men and women are saying that ALL men commit mass murder?

that makes an iota bit of sense to you?

[bettyellen]

84. #NotOneIota LOL

Love it!

[seabeyond]

91. me too. love it. lol. nt

[sheshe2]

79. No you did not come here for a discussion.

You came here to tell us what we think.

It has been explained to you over and over again.Yet you continue.

[freshwest]

202. Mission Accomplished, thread destoyed. Sorry, She she. n/t

[sheshe2]

205. Yes....

#NOTALLMEN: How Not to Derail Discussions of Women's Issues

I know freshwest.

[intaglio]

115. Citations of the threads saying all men

You are the one attacking a valid response to this tragedy. You are the one claiming, in essence that many "responsible" men are the real victims. You are the one claiming that you are being attacked - when you began the assault.

[sheshe2]

13. Thank you, passiveporcupine.

I am tearing my hair out in frustration. They do not stop and listen, they talk over us time and time again.

[geek tragedy]

22. it's textbook because you know that they would pull this stunt

in this thread, just like they do in every other thread.

[The Roux Comes First]

197. Exactly

I have seen no evidence in my ongoing surfing of any claims of "All Men" over anything: harassment, intimidation, violence, etc. Seems like a classic red herring with an amazing amount of vitriol and number of posts all futilely trying to defend a ridiculous premise.

[Jamastiene]

72. The very title of the thread says #NOTALLMEN

as in #NOT all men. So, your assertion that anyone on DU has said all men is false. Either link to a post that says all men or quit implying anyone is saying that. Your "question" is disingenuous.

[Thor_MN]

101. On the contrary,

It is beyond ridiculous to claim that not one use of the phrase "not all men" has ever been in response to "all men" or an implied all men. You have absolutely no way to back your claim that my assertion is false. One can not prove a negative.

I'll leave you with the same (now hypothetical) question.

If there exists ONE post where it is implied that all men are rapists/misogynists, would that stereotyping be acceptable?

Would civil discussion be more likely if the post did not accuse ~50% of the human population of being a criminal?

[intaglio]

116. You are the one making claims without citation

You are the one who has attempted to justify an indefensible response to this tragedy.

Your petty minded little whines are sickening.

[Thor_MN]

119. There never, ever, has been a single post on the entire internet that implies all men are xxxxx

That's your claim? Really? Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is? There's never been a post that says "All men benefit from rape." There's never been a post that claims "Men, and many women, have a problem accepting the misogyny of this tragedy..."

I gave up on trying to convince people that such posts exist, such was the fervor of those who decided to lash out against a simple question, and tried to ask the same question as a hypothetical question.

You know what I found? That the sole person willing to give a response, rather than jamming their fingers in their ears and trying to figuratively shout "LALALALALALALA" was male.

My point was and is, that trying to insist on absolutes invariably leads to hypocrisy. The OP says that it should be ignored. I'd like to know why.

Have I insulted you? Whats with the personal attacks? I am not trying to justify any response to any tragedy. The OP is NOT about the jackass in San Diego. Maybe you missed that. I'd suggest reading the OP before knee jerking a response and making baseless assumptions.

[intaglio]

126. You cited DU specifically

Back up you claims with the many posts and OPs that support your whiny little diversion

[Thor_MN]

130. Really? Please cite where I did that. I have not used the letters D and U consecutively,

except as part of another word. (Hint, view all and then use the find function of your browser)

I have cited examples in other posts in this OP and am not going to do it again, as I feel no need to answer your demands, especially in light of your absolutely ridiculous claim that I specified DU. If you can't bother to perform a simple search before hurling false accusations, there's not much point in continuing conversation.

[intaglio]

133. OK, implied, now cite the DU threads that support your contention n/t

[Thor_MN]

158. You admit that you made that up. Possible that you are making other things up?

As I stated, I have already provided two examples in other posts. Since you decided to pull an accusation out of thin air about something I said, I'll leave as an exercise to your searching skills to find them.

[intaglio]

174. Nope, but you are still denying reality

You are denying your own misogyny and you again are attempting to derail the conversation into being about you and other "white knights"

[Thor_MN]

178. Who has said "White Knight" other than you and what the hell does that even mean?

I am not a misogynist and no amount of your repeating nonsense is going to prove that.

You have shown your intolerance over and over. You believe that that it is acceptable to stereotype a group of people. I don't know your motives, but YOU have proven that you are a sexist bigot.

[catrose]

147. Maybe you're not aware

that women have been subject to such tactics all our lives, that we could cite and write the responses for you. What is an amusing game to you is the tragedy of our lives, and we're quite used to our tragedies being turned into "not all men" or in specific "not me." And some of us--apparently many of us--are not in the mood to push our tragedies aside to soothe someone by agreeing that it's "not all men" or 'not you." It feels like being at loved one's funeral, and someone walking in and saying, "But I didn't die," like we should cancel the funeral.

I trust you can find the soothing and comfort being called "civil discussion" that you need, but I doubt it will be here.

[Thor_MN]

185. No, what I have found here is the same exact hate and hypocrisy that you speak of.

I'm well aware of sexism, and I've seen a whole lot of it here.

I do not consider this to be an amusing game. I'm speaking out about stereotyping and getting attacked for it. Does it make one feel better, somehow avenging history? Does becoming that that which is despised make one free?

My point, from the very beginning has been that stereotyping does not further conversation. But according to the very vocal people here, it is perfectly fine. So at least to this group, Equality is not what is desired, they want payback.

[The Roux Comes First]

199. No, of Course Not

Now find something else to occupy yourself with.

[Thor_MN]

203. Thank you.

That is but the second answer to a very simple, very obvious question. I've been quite amazed at the number of people who would rather argue and accuse rather than stop to think for a second.

[Starry Messenger]

6. k&r

[Nye Bevan]

14. May I also suggest that it's a good idea to avoid saying things that make people defensive.

For example, here is a thread in which more than one DUer claim that "all men benefit from rape". When I protested that, as the father of daughters, I most certainly do not "benefit from rape", one response was that the existence of rape gives me an excuse to have more control of my daughters, which means that I do indeed "benefit from rape".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10022154026#post99

I am willing to have a civil conversation but sometimes it's difficult in the face of that kind of nonsense.

[geek tragedy]

21. textbook. some feminist said something you didn't like months ago, so that's

what you want this discussion to be about, because what is important is you being able to claim the status as the aggrieved party.

perhaps you should, for once, stop wagging your finger in women's faces and telling them that they're doing feminism wrong and actually listen.

you know, at least go through the motions of wanting a civil conversation.

[Nye Bevan]

29. I simply don't think that statements such as "all men benefit from rape"

are conducive to useful and productive discussions. Perhaps I am wrong, and obviously you disagree with me on this, but I have a feeling that I am not going to be able to change your mind.

[geek tragedy]

35. and you had that discussion MONTHS ago, yet here you are beating that dead horse,for obvious reasons

I would suggest that you govern yourself under the standards you constantly hector feminists and people of color to adopt.

when you show an interest in something other than lecturing historically oppressed groups how to speak properly with sufficient respect and deference to white men, maybe then people will take this schtick more seriously

[Nye Bevan]

42. "All men benefit from rape" was simply the first example that sprang to mind,

probably because it was in a thread that I actually participated in (I stay out of many of those discussions).

That being said, thank you for taking the time to give me advice on how to approach these issues. Next time feminists tell me things like "all men benefit from rape" I will try not to react as negatively.

Have a good night.

[intaglio]

117. Well cite some more examples

as, obviously, they are so memorable to you.

[roguevalley]

36. I don't either think that of all men but too many men don't seem to really hear us when

we speak. We are being killed because we won't sleep with men, when we do we are sluts, etc. The thread of the women on twitter is NEEDED. Everyone ESPECIALLY MEN have to LISTEN.

Do you men ever consider, men, every time you go somewhere that the chance of getting raped is pretty good? Do you worry when you go out that what you wear could get you raped, that the darkness might hide a predator, that you check your location for danger? How many times when you leave your house to go somewhere are you doing this? When you got to the grocery store at night do you feel fear of the dark when you come out alone?

When was the last time you left somewhere and worried about being raped? Shot by a silly assed entitlement guy? Worried about your drink at a party? I could go on. Read it. Listen to it. This is our reality too often. Sure. Not all men do this but enough of them do to change our lives and behavior and even our expectations forever. I am old. I remember when it wasn't so. I could leave my door unlocked all the time.

Not now. LISTEN! LISTEN!LISTEN!LISTEN!

[Nye Bevan]

43. As a husband, and as a father of daughters, that stuff positively terrifies me.

Much more so than if I was the person at risk. And I'm pretty sure that all DU fathers of daughters would agree with me in this regard.

[roguevalley]

49. I know they would. I know you would. But that is the life of women.

You are aware at a level I don't think men know about. All the men in my life are and were good. I wish it were so for everyone. Take care tonight, Nye.

[seabeyond]

62. it was a feminists academic exercise in exploration from different angle and perspective

to men to see and understand.

a father does benefit with a daughter, cause he can have the comfort of using her safety to have a tighter leash which makes his life easier. as a parent, with teens i understand how hard to let them go out in the world in freedom, knowing all the things they face. with a daughter, there are more restrictions. whether you apply more on a daughter or not.

a mere academic discussion.

yet you refuse to try to appreciate or understand or explore conversation. and you use it to bring in here and turn it around for you to be comforted that someone would say this to you, a father, who loves your daughter and wife so.

yes. you do.

it was not a personal attack on you.

it is unfortunate that you are unable to explore and gain insight or simply explore and reject cause it does not work for you. and it be no more or less.

[nomorenomore08]

76. Personally, I tend to think telling the plain truth is more important.

*Edit: I'm not saying I agree with the sentiment you objected to. Making more of a general comment.

[Shandris]

17. Here's my simple litmus test:

If a man were to tell me he 'hates women', would I think he means all women? Or would I think he meant a select group?

If a man came up to me and told me that 'women are just gold-diggers', would I think he meant some women, but not all? Or would I think he was a misogynist who was actively telling me the truth about how he felt? If a man said 'Muslims just want to kill people', would I think he meant a small group of Muslims? Or would I think that he was the kind of person prone to attacking innocent people simply because they share a religion with certain other individuals? Furthermore, if a Muslim were to walk up at that very moment and get irate, would I tell them to shut up because they were distracting from an important conversation about Muslims?

I can't answer those questions for anyone but myself, but I'd be thinking 'Misogynist, misogynist, Muslim-hater, and hell no'.

[geek tragedy]

25. Sigh. This is example #3 of trying to derail

a discussion about detailing, using the technique of railing against the evil
Stereotyping of all men that is whined about approximately 200x as often as it actually occurs.

[Shandris]

34. Wait. Let me get this straight. I'm...DERAILING...a thread with an OP about why...

...stereotyping is perfectly okay (and people who take offense and point it out are not only wrong, but -bad-) by demonstrating how I don't think stereotyping is okay.

And you think this is so dreary as to 'sigh' about?

Is there anything else you'd like to tell me about what I'm allowed, or not allowed, to say?

[geek tragedy]

37. no, you blatantly distorted the OP, but thanks for playing, go ahead and play the victim, it's

what you're here to do.

the OP wasn't saying stereotyping is ok.

but, you're determined to be defensive and confrontational rather than listening, because hey what to they have to say that you should respect, right? men aren't supposed to listen to women who disagree with them, just figure out how to show those women how wrong they are.

that's what some people learn anyways

[Shandris]

50. I'm playing the victim? Erm...alright. I'm not sure how I'm the victim, given that...

...the victims of this kind of thing are men, but whatever. You're right that I won't just shut up and listen. I WILL NEVER JUST SHUT UP AND LISTEN. I'll listen, and if I think there's something wrong I'll point it out. I'll shut up when it is time to listen, until such a point that listening has become detrimental. If -you- want to shut up and listen, then by all means go ahead.

But I'm not here to confront - I never am, not on this forum. I'll disagree, I'll agree, I'll add in my insights, but if they aren't wanted I'll go elsewhere and that's fine. I can't be -defensive- on this topic, given it isn't aimed at me in the first place. But contrary to popular belief, we don't all walk in lockstep and I'm -not- certain all my sisters have my best (or even -any-) of my best interests at heart. And because of that I will not just shut up.

Now that this -has- gone into the realm of derailing, I'll give you a thumbs up on getting it there so everyone, not just you, can ignore what I say. Something done to me -far- more often than the tripe in half of these hashtags, and usually by other women.

[geek tragedy]

54. well, as a man, I can say that those who play the "not all men" game are not serving my interests

and, let's be clear, it is a game, not a serious discussion when that card gets played.

You didn't listen or even read the goddamn OP, since you claim it supports stereotyping. Contrary to your claim, it actually says ( I will do you the favor of putting in bold font the language that DIRECTLY DISAVOWS AND DISCLAIMS ANY STEREOTYPING:

The murderer was active on men’s rights fora, where women are highly objectified, to say the very least. They are seen as nonhuman by many such groups, and at the very least lesser than men—sometimes nothing more than targets or things to acquire. What these men write puts them, to me, in the same category as White Power movements, or any other horribly bigoted group that “others” anyone else. While it may not be possible to blame the men’s rights groups for what happened, from the reports we’ve seen they certainly provided an atmosphere of support.

Of course, these loathsome people represent a very small percentage of men out there. Over the weekend, as the discussion across Twitter turned to these horrible events, a lot of men started tweeting this, saying “not all men are like that.” It’s not an unexpected response. However, it’s also not a helpful one.

Why is it not helpful to say “not all men are like that”? For lots of reasons. For one, women know this. They already know not every man is a rapist, or a murderer, or violent. They don’t need you to tell them.


Second, it’s defensive. When people are defensive, they aren’t listening to the other person; they’re busy thinking of ways to defend themselves. I watched this happen on Twitter, over and again.

Third, the people saying it aren’t furthering the conversation, they’re sidetracking it. The discussion isn’t about the men who aren’t a problem. (Though, I’ll note, it can be. I’ll get back to that.) Instead of being defensive and distracting from the topic at hand, try staying quiet for a while and actually listening to what the thousands upon thousands of women discussing this are saying.

[Shandris]

77. I aleady told you that I wasn't going to confront you...

...so you begin cursing at me in your next post. Much classy. Very anger. Wow.

[geek tragedy]

83. Had you not doubled down on the false and misleading

claim that the OP endorsed stereotyping, a post less blunt and pointed would have been called for. In general, you will get more civil responses if you avoid saying stuff that is obviously and demonstrably false.

Only one person to blame for that.

[sheshe2]

102. "I'm -not- certain all my sisters have my best (or even -any-) of my best interests at heart."

Really...Really????


We will not sit down...We will not shut up!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024805722

These are my sisters! And we damn well stand together 1!


I for one will not shut up and I stand by this OP!

I for one cannot believe that you said this

"I'm -not- certain all my sisters have my best (or even -any-) of my best interests at heart."

[noiretextatique]

108. did they read the OP?

stfu and listen...for once...without being defensive.

[AngryAmish]

127. Some people just don't know their place.

[noiretextatique]

170. apparently not

Op is about listening to women's experiences re: misogyny, not trying to CHANGE the subject. Epic FAIL.

[seabeyond]

19. Started reading#YesAllWomen b/c I've got a daughter,now I see I should be reading b/c I've got 2 son

women know this. They already know not every man is a rapist, or a murderer, or violent.

that was very good. thank you. all around. and a gain, i will say, all any of us are asking of men is to listen. and think.

reading that. i came back to the tv show psych. i was watching with my 16 yr old son. a couple older retired detectives with the two younger ones. one asked... how did you know SHE was lying?

the two old geezers laugh and say at the same time

because she is a woman.

it has been about a week since i saw that. and i still think about that.

all us women are given we are a liar.

was that a joke? i mean, really. if men say it forever, is it a joke?

[sheshe2]

28. I thought of you sea,

and your sons when I saw that tweet.

I know what you post and I am damn sure any son of yours knows and respects women. How could they not sea, they are your sons that you have raised so well.

Yes the geezers laugh uproariously, all women are liars. A joke? No. To them and so many that have come after them...it is sadly their belief. However not a fact.

[seabeyond]

38. well. seeing how i am all into behavior, sociology, psychology and the like, i am having a blast.

i am seeing the upper teens. the lower 20's. i am seeing what this world is creating for them. and how they are creating their world to make it thru. and the excitement of the new... that they create. it is certainly interesting. and absolutely challenging.

but. exciting.

[sheshe2]

187. You are definitely up to the challenge, sea~ nt

[scruboak]

162. +1. n/t

[Phlem]

26. Post an answer that 100% agrees with the OP, and

have it buried by the OP because she disagrees with the content which might paint her in ill light.



your welcome.

-p

[sheshe2]

52. And you are saying what Phlem? nt

[davidn3600]

57. The new hashtag starting is #YesAllPeople

[intaglio]

118. and that hashtag is another attempt to derail the conversation

from what women experience every f'n day into a more general angst that lets men feel good about themselves.

[bettyellen]

171. try #HeadInThe Sand

[sheshe2]

186. +1!

Thanks bettyellen.

[wickerwoman]

66. Thanks for the link.

Shame the people who obviously need to read and understand it won't.

[defacto7]

87. The OP is excellent and has a lot of important information

concerning women's need to be heard and that there is a time for men to listen and listen well.

But several of the comments by posters supposedly representing women's need to be heard are giving me the impression that they do not in fact represent women's issues at all. The stark ad hom rebuttals are both irrational and common fallacy to the hilt. I have always listened, supported, rallied for the rights of women and will continue to do so. But I will not listen to those false representatives of women's issues on this site from this point on because that cause is something YOU do not understand. You undermine human trust by supporting false positions that so many real supporters of women's rights, needs, pain, and fears have to make up for and I am sick and tired of cleaning up the mess.

You either support humanity, all of it... period.... and the responsibilities that come with it, or you support only yourself, for yourself and now by yourself.

Thank you sheshe2 for the excellent article. I'm sorry it's been seriously misused.

Now on to ignore.

[bettyellen]

94. Thank you for this....

great post, much appreciated.
So many are pretending this was never discussed as a cultural problem here before- they claim to have no context at all. It's a one off.

Bull fucking shit, is all I have to say.

[sheshe2]

188. Thanks bettyellen.

I thought it was a great article, made better by the fact that it was written by a man, Phil Plait.

As he said here...

All that means is that I can only speak from my own point of view, and try to understand others as best I can. When it comes to sexism, to my shame, that took me a long, long time to figure out. I had to have my head handed to me many times in many embarrassing situations to see how I was participating in that culture, that everyday sexism. It was like air, all around me, so pervasive that I didn’t see it, even when I was in it and a part of it.

[steve2470]

96. I will be so glad when the day arrives that these threads are no longer needed....

as in, women are treated with respect AS A RULE and as equals, etc etc, and misogyny is no longer an issue. Men, feminists are our allies ! Please realize this. I think the vast majority of men on DU realize this.

[seabeyond]

98. "Men, feminists are our allies ! " ahhhhh.

that got a sound out of me. it is true. really. lol. but it was fun reading it.

[steve2470]

99. glad I could make you smile

It took me a while to realize the truth of that statement, but realize now I do.

[MadrasT]

124. So basically this thread turned into a textbook example of the behavior.

Wow. Just... wow.

[stevenleser]

132. K&R nt

[baldguy]

153. "Why is it not helpful to say “not all men are like that”?"

"For lots of reasons. For one, women know this. They already know not every man is a rapist, or a murderer, or violent. They don’t need you to tell them."

You know what's really not helpful? To acknowledge that not all men are like that, and then proceed to perpetuate the stereotype that they are.

[boston bean]

160. see here, went over like a lead balloon, sorry to say.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024914475

[seabeyond]

163. cartoons made about it. blogs... people all over the net talking about "notallmen". men and

women alike.

and still.... we have those on this thread in denial. something, huh.

[niyad]

166. k and r, and sighing for the expected backlash.

[sheshe2]

192. C'est la vie, niyad.

Still it makes the point and people are seeing it. Some with eyes wide shut, the rest for knowing the truth when they see it. Others have experienced it.

[smallcat88]

167. Teach your sons

I am very proud to say I have a brother who understands this. Our father taught him to always respect women, that no means NO, and never just stand by and watch a woman being abused. He once broke his hand in a bar fight with some jerk who was harassing a woman in the bar. He didn't know either of them, he just refused to sit on the sidelines and watch.

A lot of this abusive behavior is embedded in our social norms. Parents need to fight back by teaching their children to be human beings instead of emulating characters they see on the screen.

[SunSeeker]

179. K & R

[paulkienitz]

184. red pillers must be short... they keep saying #no tall men

[me b zola]

189. Yes, yes, yes

Not only when speaking about gender and how it relates to women's rights, but when discussing minority groups in general ~ including and especially adoptees.

[spooky3]

190. Thanks, sheshe2. The whole column, especially the tweets, is/are great.

K&r

[Raksha]

193. K & R

[DirkGently]

196. And yet wouldn't a lot of "This man is not like that"

be a worthwhile thing to express?

Might not some saying the one thing be trying to express the other?

[sheshe2]

198. Read the article. nt

[bettyellen]

214. The answers are in the article, which is awesome....

[sheshe2]

206. Kicking...

Third, the people saying it aren’t furthering the conversation, they’re sidetracking it. The discussion isn’t about the men who aren’t a problem. (Though, I’ll note, it can be. I’ll get back to that.) Instead of being defensive and distracting from the topic at hand, try staying quiet for a while and actually listening to what the thousands upon thousands of women discussing this are saying.

For the perfect example of a derailed thread about women.