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Thu May 29, 2014, 09:40 AM

Men

There are certain topics that never seem to go well on DU. The reality of sexist influences in our culture is one of them. Indeed, the ugliness of the 2008 presidential primaries pales in comparison -- at least to the extent that such debates did not include attributing Senator Obama’s victory over Senator Clinton in a male vs. female context.

The recent tragic mass-murder would seem to provide common ground. The killer was a freak. His primary target for his hatred was women. In reading the shit head’s manifesto, the rage that he aimed towards women is the most outstanding feature. Without that hatred towards all women, his rant would simply be a pathetic example of self-pity. In my opinion, but for that hatred of women, it seems unlikely he would have ever killed anyone.

That he had extremely little contact with girls while growing up, and almost none with women as he reached adulthood, did not keep him from defining females into a “one size fits all” group: the enemy. In particular, his perverse and inadequate ideas about sex made him dangerous to women -- for he convinced himself that women owed him sexual gratification. Thus, he was exactly the type of creep who, had he ever dated, would be at high risk to react violently if a woman told him “no.”

The fact that he had some connection to a “men’s rights” group has been mentioned as evidence that he hated women. Indeed, considering that he was never involved in a relation with a women -- except his mother and step-mother -- raises the obvious question: what “right” did he believe he was being denied? One that never existed. He wanted sex. And he wanted to be seen, on the beach or in a college classroom, holding hands with a beautiful woman. So yes, his hatred of women was his sole reason for relating to any men’s right group.

Yet, this in no way provides proof positive that men’s rights groups are bad. The fact that we are a patriarchal society, where maleness provides many advantages, does not mean that all men’s groups are focused on denying women equal rights. Surely, many such groups are not seeking equality, just as some of the members are flaming assholes. However, men do not have a monopoly on being scoundrels, and the number one focus of men’s rights groups is the area in our society where women, as a group, have long held an unfair advantage.

I live in New York, and hence what I have to say here applies to this state. However, it has been the general case in other states, as well. In the context of Family Court, where issues such as separation, child custody, divorce, support, and dividing assets, fathers have not found a level playing field. I’m friends with a number of the lawyers in my region (and a few judges), both male and female. They all say that women have had an advantage in this context.

Adults who are involved in divorces, especially where children are involved, do funny things. That includes men and women. The process sometimes involves two adults who are able to objectively put the well-being of their children first. But such cases do not end up being fought bitterly in court. Even if one parent is capable of putting their children’s needs first, it can end up in ugly court hearings, which tend to continue until the youngest child reaches maturity. And that still leaves many, many cases where both parents, to some degree, view the court as a competition, in which one side “wins” the children, property, income, and other resources.

The main focus that I had was my two little boys, ages three and six. In court, I got custody, and their mother got visitation. However, she also got the house, two of three automobiles, and support -- even though her income was more than mine. I told my attorney that I did not think this was fair. He said it wasn’t fair, but that I had gotten what was most important to me.

After I moved into an apartment, I found that two other guys living there had similar stories -- although neither had custody of their children. At first, we discussed this informally. Soon, we all began inviting other men to our discussions. Thus began a men’s rights group.

It is important to note that it wasn’t simply an organized meeting to trash women. To be fair, there were times when that took place, per an individual woman. But the primary focus was on father’s rights, how to navigate the family court system, and the responsibilities of fatherhood.

New York had changed some of the rules in family court, to make it fairer for men who wanted to be active participants in their children’s lives, back in the early 1970s. I was aware of this, because Governor Rockefeller had pushed the issue, largely at the request of the man who headed his security detail -- one of my uncles.

Our group approached one lawyer in each of the three surrounding counties. These gentlemen, who did not like to be involved in divorce/custody hearings, for the same reasons that many police do not enjoy being called to “domestic disputes,” were open to providing general information to our group. A couple were also willing to reduce their fees, if I prepared all of the paperwork needed for court. I’ve authored the appropriate paperwork in a couple dozen cases in the quarter century since then, and have “won” every case thus far.

Word spreads quickly. Soon, men who had no interest in being responsible parents came to us, seeking assistance. This included men who despised women. A few of them bragged about being able to intimidate the mothers of their children. One was mighty proud that he had hurt his wife, as if that was something to brag about.

In each and every instance, our group moved to kick that type of thug out of our meetings. We would try, as a group, to confront the guys that they were creating problems for themselves, and their children. Very few were willing to recognize the role they played. Instead, they became angry with the group. And, no surprise, one fellow mistakenly believed he could change our minds by threatening the two group leaders (which included me). That was a serious error on his part: he suffered the consequences.

Being pro-fathers’ rights does not translate to being anti-woman. Earlier tonight, I spoke with a woman from across the country, who leads a group of women who had the misfortune to marry psychopaths. I serve as a volunteer for that group. My tasks include assisting these ladies in how to best present the information they have, first to their lawyer, and then in court. I also spend time talking to individual group members, to help them win back the self-respect and dignity that has been stolen from them by ruthless thugs. The woman that leads this group is in the medical profession; she married a doctor, who turned out to be a snake. She and I have been friends since grade school. She knows that I try to help men going through divorce. But that doesn’t impact her trusting me to help the women in her group. The only thing that I ask in return, is that these people try to be the best parents that they can be.

Being the best parents we can be should be the focus of both men and women who are dealing with the family court system. And that’s not pro- or anti- either sex. If our society could come to terms with that aspect, we might be better equipped to deal with the numerous other problems that are caused by sexism in America.

Today, I am pretty good friends with my ex-wife. She is the mother of our two boys. And neither of us is the same person we were when we split. We enjoy each other’s company at family events. My daughters both are good friends with their brothers’ mom.

Life is a process.

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Arrow 110 replies Author Time Post
Reply Men (Original post)
H2O Man May 2014 OP
boston bean May 2014 #1
Major Nikon May 2014 #8
H2O Man May 2014 #10
boston bean May 2014 #16
redqueen May 2014 #18
boston bean May 2014 #15
Major Nikon May 2014 #17
boston bean May 2014 #19
Major Nikon May 2014 #20
boston bean May 2014 #29
Major Nikon May 2014 #32
boston bean May 2014 #41
JTFrog May 2014 #46
pintobean May 2014 #75
JTFrog May 2014 #99
H2O Man May 2014 #22
ms liberty May 2014 #36
H2O Man May 2014 #39
jamzrockz May 2014 #102
maddezmom May 2014 #103
redqueen May 2014 #26
Major Nikon May 2014 #27
JTFrog May 2014 #28
Major Nikon May 2014 #33
JTFrog May 2014 #35
H2O Man May 2014 #44
sabrina 1 May 2014 #100
Katashi_itto May 2014 #54
redqueen May 2014 #13
Whisp May 2014 #2
H2O Man May 2014 #11
Lunacee_2013 May 2014 #31
uppityperson May 2014 #3
H2O Man May 2014 #24
GeorgeGist May 2014 #4
Tuesday Afternoon May 2014 #6
leftyohiolib May 2014 #7
Major Nikon May 2014 #9
Sissyk May 2014 #34
Tuesday Afternoon May 2014 #5
H2O Man May 2014 #40
redqueen May 2014 #12
Autumn May 2014 #14
H2O Man May 2014 #45
gollygee May 2014 #21
H2O Man May 2014 #51
JTFrog May 2014 #23
ismnotwasm May 2014 #25
Tuesday Afternoon May 2014 #43
FSogol May 2014 #30
snooper2 May 2014 #38
H2O Man May 2014 #47
Sissyk May 2014 #37
H2O Man May 2014 #57
Sissyk May 2014 #74
polly7 May 2014 #42
H2O Man May 2014 #58
tkmorris May 2014 #48
H2O Man May 2014 #59
Zorra May 2014 #49
H2O Man May 2014 #50
one_voice May 2014 #52
H2O Man May 2014 #62
geek tragedy May 2014 #68
one_voice May 2014 #69
redqueen May 2014 #70
geek tragedy May 2014 #78
one_voice May 2014 #83
geek tragedy May 2014 #85
one_voice May 2014 #89
geek tragedy May 2014 #91
one_voice May 2014 #94
geek tragedy May 2014 #95
one_voice May 2014 #97
Squinch May 2014 #53
redqueen May 2014 #55
Squinch May 2014 #56
Egnever May 2014 #72
redqueen May 2014 #76
Egnever May 2014 #79
redqueen May 2014 #80
Egnever May 2014 #86
redqueen May 2014 #88
Squinch May 2014 #92
Squinch May 2014 #90
Gravitycollapse May 2014 #65
Squinch May 2014 #66
Egnever May 2014 #71
Squinch May 2014 #77
Egnever May 2014 #84
ConnorMarc May 2014 #60
H2O Man May 2014 #63
HuskiesHowls May 2014 #61
H2O Man May 2014 #64
geek tragedy May 2014 #67
Egnever May 2014 #73
H2O Man May 2014 #81
geek tragedy May 2014 #98
LineLineLineLineNew Reply 1
H2O Man May 2014 #101
geek tragedy May 2014 #106
H2O Man May 2014 #107
geek tragedy May 2014 #108
Laelth May 2014 #82
scruboak May 2014 #87
Egnever May 2014 #96
H2O Man May 2014 #105
Hippo_Tron May 2014 #109
Warpy May 2014 #93
bloom May 2014 #104
FourScore Jun 2014 #110

Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:45 AM

1. H2OMan conflating the MRA groups being discussed here

with groups of men who aren't misogynistic. Even though there is plenty of evidence to support a growing angry, group of men out there who do hate women.

Why so defensive?

Post some links of these wonderful mens groups sites, so we can see for ourselves. I don't doubt there are a few you could point to however, that is not the norm nor is it what is being discussed about here.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #1)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:09 AM

8. Probably for the same reason you got so defensive when someone linked you to the duckies site

You have people all over DU using half-fast shitty guilt-by-association fallacies calling other DUers "MRAs" which they use in the pejorative to mean anti-feminists.

I seem to remember you getting quite angry when those associations were made because you had nothing to do with the hateful TERF pow-wow that was going on at the time. So walk a mile in someone else's shoes. How do you think other people are going to react when the shit throwers try to associate people here with the most hateful nose-pickers posting from mommie's basement?

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #8)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:32 AM

10. Right.

There are some DUers who I consider proof that bitterness contaminates the vessel that contains it. Thus, I make a point of not engaging in conversation with them, because no good can come from it.

The OP is about I topic that I have no need to be on the defense or offense on. It is what it is. As I noted, there are good and bad among both men and women, and their support/advocacy groups, as well. Again, as noted, in this particular group that I was part of, there were some bitter, hostile men who came for the wrong reasons. We would confront their errors in thinking (and the behavior that resulted), and then the ball was in their court. If their negative crap continued, they were told to leave.

Even among the "good" guys, there were periods of anger and hostility. The group functioned in a way that let people vent appropriately, but confronted individuals who were allowing anger to dominate their thinking. That is the way such a group should work.

That there are many men who are thugs is way beyond question. Other men do have a responsibility to confront that problem. The OP speaks to a group effort to do exactly that. Some people will understand that; others will find fault, even if they need to attribute misinformation to the discussion.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #10)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:55 AM

16. WRONG.

He thinks people making personal allegations against me is the same? You too? LOL

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #10)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:16 AM

18. Ignoring people you don't like is one thing. Refusing to post facts

instead of only offering anecdotes is quite another.

Family courts were more unfair to men in the 70's than all courts were in general.

Are they now?

You propose there are nontoxic men's rights groups but you won't actually name them.

Great job.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #8)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:54 AM

15. You think someone accusing me personally of doing something

at a website off of DU, when I did not, is somehow the same as this?

LOL

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Response to boston bean (Reply #15)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:14 AM

17. Actually I don't think it's the same

The difference is people were accusing you of TERFing with people who actually were no-shit TERFs and who you at least associated with although may not have embraced or encouraged their warped TERF ideas. In this case we have DUers who are accusing other DUers of being "MRAs" when they have never identified as such or associated with such.

So no, it's not the same. It's even farther out on the bullshit scale. But it is comparable.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #17)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:20 AM

19. I'll agree with one thing. Your post is definitly out there on the bullshit scale.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #19)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:23 AM

20. So it's OK to associate you with the TERFs

And it must have been wrong for you to get so defensive about it.

And it must also be OK to start calling HOF the TERF group.

Good to know.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #20)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:54 AM

29. Yeah, that's the ticket.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #29)

Thu May 29, 2014, 12:04 PM

32. So are you saying HOF has never harbored any TERFs?

Yes or no is fine. Another non answer provides even more information.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #32)

Thu May 29, 2014, 12:58 PM

41. Have you now or have you ever had interaction with or harbored a TERF?

Give me a fucking break.

Get.over.yourself.

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Response to boston bean (Reply #41)

Thu May 29, 2014, 01:21 PM

46. He's having a time out. n/t

 

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Response to JTFrog (Reply #46)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:39 PM

75. One of yours had one of those this week.

I doubt he'll get a whiny pity party, though.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #75)

Sat May 31, 2014, 12:07 AM

99. WTF one of mine?

 

I have a fucking double on this website or something?

Or you consider Major one of yours? Yea I get it.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #17)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:29 AM

22. There are times

when I post on certain topics, knowing that it will be like one of those yellow fly strips. And sure enough, there are a few flies buzzing on this thread, attempting to tell me that I have to produce this or that to meet their approval.

That's a giggle. I have no desire to meet their approval.

On the other hand, there are a lot of DUers who are capable of recognizing some simple truths: there are good and bad people to be found among both sexes -- in fact, most people are a combination of god and bad. And we live in a culture where sexism, racism, and other related diseases impact the quality of life for everyone.

In our own way, we should all be trying to improve our society. The fight for Social Justice must be an individual and group effort. And in the group context, there will always be differences of opinion, and people who agree and disagree with us.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #22)

Thu May 29, 2014, 12:24 PM

36. a reasoned response. I admire your patience...

Just wading into this topic makes you a braver soul than I! I have followed it but avoided posting because the rancour and willingness of the posters to act so uncivilized achieved levels so repellant that I was dissuaded. I've lived some of the experiences discussed...how could I not have as a woman in my mid 50's? But I have dealt with them and moved on; I've let go of some of the militant anger I once felt on this subject, because it made me miserable and did nothing to advance a resolution at all. Thanks for your perspective in the op and your replies in the thread.

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Response to ms liberty (Reply #36)

Thu May 29, 2014, 12:52 PM

39. Thanks!

There are topics that I know are controversial, and that adding my two cents will result in some people tossing insults at. Others disagree, but are attempting to discuss in a meaningful way. And there's always going to be one person who "loses all respect" for me. (grin)

While I recognize that I do not have a monopoly on the truth, or know everything about any given topic, I like to express my opinion. I tend to have as much respect for those people who will disagree with my opinion, but not view that as something personal, as those who agree with me. And I don't care one way or the other about the few people that I've come to have no respect for. I'm no more likely to respond to them on a topic where, by chance, I might agree with whatever opinion they do express, than on a topic like this.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #17)

Sat May 31, 2014, 08:41 AM

102. Just wondering

 

what is a TERF?

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #8)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:34 AM

26. My approval isn't the issue. Your credibility is.

It is at this point plainly obvious that you are willing to go to bat for the alleged good MRA groups.

You just won't say which ones those are.

Paints a pretty clear picture.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #26)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:37 AM

27. Aren't you still being ReallyQuiet about your comments?

Glass houses/rocks

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #27)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:52 AM

28. Why should she?

 

She made a great point.

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Response to JTFrog (Reply #28)

Thu May 29, 2014, 12:09 PM

33. You should ask her

I'm not convinced the point that transgender are mentally defective is all that great. In fact, I think it's pretty hateful and warped.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #33)

Thu May 29, 2014, 12:19 PM

35. And your attempts at character assassination are pretty hateful and warped.

 

Just sayin....

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Response to JTFrog (Reply #35)

Thu May 29, 2014, 01:10 PM

44. Since you deleted

the post in which you said you have lost all respect for me, I'll respond to it here.

In my OP, I made several points. These include:

- many men are sexist assholes;
- our culture is sexist;
- men do have the right to a level playing field in family court, which has been the one area where women have had some advantages;
- men have responsibilities as fathers;
- men have the responsibility to confront those brutes who hate women;
- I am able to work, in various capacities, with both men's and women's groups.

I posted the OP, knowing that many people would disagree with some, much, or all of it. But that's what happens when one speaks about a controversial issue. Thus, I accept that you disagree to an extent that has made you lose all respect for me. It's the price I am willing to pay, for speaking about this issue in an honest way.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #26)

Sat May 31, 2014, 01:30 AM

100. No, actually, it's not: "plainly obvious that you are willing to go to bat for the alleged MRA

groups. You just won't say which ones those are.' You really should just speak for yourself. We all should.

What may seem 'plainly obvious' to YOU, is not at all obvious to ME, eg, and probably many others.

I and my husband were involved with a Men's Rights Group for a while in order to try to get information on exactly what rights he as a father had regarding his son. He had been told he had NO RIGHTS. That, thankfully, turned out not to be true. His son certainly had the right to access to his father. And thankfully he did thanks to the very practical information we received from that group, his son, my stepson, was spared the psychological damage many children are subjected to in situations where adults put their own needs ahead of their children's.

I never heard a single word of anger towards anyone, male or female, at those meetings, most fathers were there for one reason only, they loved their children.

I don't know where you are getting the idea that all these groups are 'bad'. Or that there is not a need for them. They are not, and there is a need for them.

In the real world things are not as they sometimes seem on the internet.

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Response to Major Nikon (Reply #8)

Thu May 29, 2014, 03:32 PM

54. +1000

 

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Response to boston bean (Reply #1)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:39 AM

13. I'd like to see examples too. nt

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:49 AM

2. bad timing.

 

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Response to Whisp (Reply #2)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:33 AM

11. Exactly.

That's why I posted it. It needed to be said.

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Response to Whisp (Reply #2)

Thu May 29, 2014, 12:01 PM

31. That's what I was thinking. Nt.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:49 AM

3. kick to mark for later after I have had time to think about this and reply beyond saying there are

some decent people and unfortunatley some jerks. Thank you for taking the time to write this, is deserves more than a one line comment after mulling it over.

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Response to uppityperson (Reply #3)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:31 AM

24. Thanks.

It's a tough topic.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:02 AM

4. You got two sons ...

and you're still whining that your ex-wife got more material goods.

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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #4)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:04 AM

6. yes, but sons are not material possessions. No one should own another human being.

I understand this may be coming from personal frustration that you may be currently experiencing.

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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #4)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:04 AM

7. did u not read the whole thing

 

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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #4)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:19 AM

9. You should be whining about it too

Back in the 70's the reason why family courts were so stacked against fathers (and still are to a lesser degree) is because the prevailing patriarchal attitude was that fathers should be non-custodial in all instances, which is the same thing as saying a woman's place is with the kids.

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Response to GeorgeGist (Reply #4)

Thu May 29, 2014, 12:16 PM

34. Are you saying that two sons are material good?

I think you need to do what uppity did. Kick it and read it later. It doesn't seem as if you read it all the way through.

And I'll ask you. Do you think smileys like that help at all to get your point across? And, do you think calling this post whining is helpful to getting your point across? If you have a point, it's not visible for those reasons.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:02 AM

5. Thank you for sharing your personal journey and how society can be evolving albeit it in small ways

and with some few enlightened, well meaning individuals.

I am curious to know what the consequences were for those men which threatened you and had already admitted to intimidating their wives by whatever means.

Peace.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #5)

Thu May 29, 2014, 12:55 PM

40. Thanks.

Well, the person called me a few names. No problem.

Then he pushed me. I advised him not to do that again. He did. When he regained consciousness, he left quietly.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:39 AM

12. Your assertion that family court is unfair to men requires more than anecdotal evidence

to back it up.

All kinds of courts are unfair sometimes.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 10:44 AM

14. Things are getting better in the courts for Fathers.

I have a friend who has been in one big battle but he finally was awarded custody of his child yesterday. yes life certainly is a process, sometimes unexpectedly so. Thanks for sharing your journey through life.

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Response to Autumn (Reply #14)

Thu May 29, 2014, 01:18 PM

45. I agree.

Family Court is a place where it is unlikely everyone will leave happy. It's far better when a couple, if they are going to split, can put their children's needs first. That may be happening more often than in the past, but there are still plenty of hostile conflicts taking place in the court.

One of the best things that has taken place in my lifetime, is the courts appoint an attorney to represent the children involved. That allows the judge to find a better balanced decision.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:23 AM

21. I always hear that women do better in family court

but OTOH it seems like I've also heard that in general, men do better than women after divorce, financially. Though divorce is a financial catastrophe for both.

OK I googled and found this: http://divorce.usu.edu/files/uploads/lesson7.pdf

There are some men living hand to mouth and paying much of their check in child support, but one in five women becomes homeless after divorce, so women suffer too. Statistically, they both do worse after a divorce, but women do somewhat worse than men.

http://www.legalzoom.com/marriage-divorce-family-law/divorce/men-v-women-who-does

But even in a situation where all the assets are divided 50/50, divorced women may find that a seemingly fair settlement is still far from equitable. Women are typically awarded custody of the children. Because our predominant social values suggest that children are best situated with their mothers, women often do the lion's share of child rearing in divorced families, even in shared custody cases.

Any parent who has ever fought a custody battle knows that child care responsibilities are a privilege, not a burden. Unfortunately, most divorce settlements fail to account for the damaged future earning potential of a woman with child care responsibilities. Since mothers usually take some time away from their careers, and since women still earn slightly less than men, it is fair to say that most women, even prior to divorce, have lower earning power than their male spouses.

The problem of lower earning power is exacerbated by child care responsibilities. They reduce a woman's available work hours, thereby making it more difficult for her to increase her income through promotions, client cultivation and so forth. This marked reduced earning capacity is not factored into a divorce, since settlements focus on dividing marital property.

Ultimately, the overall economic quality of a man's life, based on earnings and amount spent on living expenses, increases after his divorce. He continues to earn more but bears fewer family expenses. The overall economic quality of a woman's life, post-divorce, decreases.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #21)

Thu May 29, 2014, 02:48 PM

51. Yep.

Divorce is a rough process. While it may be the best option, it can create serious hardships for everyone involved.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)


Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:33 AM

25. I can name some great men's groups that ARE NOT MRA's

Due to lack of interest, I rarely bother anymore.

I think you are confusing men's activist and support groups, with MRA's-- which are groups of nut jobs, are designated hate groups but attract the hurt or damaged men in our society, who then fail to find the healthy men's support groups.

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #25)

Thu May 29, 2014, 01:10 PM

43. I wish you would list them. This OP definitely seems like the right place and right time and

you may help someone along the way.

You never know .... they may never publicly acknowledge how helpful but, does that really matter?

Please, post links to those groups that you know to be supportive of Men's Issues.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:55 AM

30. K&R. Btw, someone was so scared of your words that they alerted on your post

Here's the results:

On Thu May 29, 2014, 12:51 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

There are times
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5019085

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

" knowing that it will be like one of those yellow fly strips."

So poster admits to posting contentious content during a contentious time when women are feeling attacked from every direction just to attract a "few flies buzzing". This is incredibly insensitive and over the top hurtful.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Thu May 29, 2014, 12:53 PM, and the Jury voted 1-6 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: meh
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Dumb alert.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Amazing...how could somebody POSSIBLY think this is hide-worthy??? LEAVE!!!!!!
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: What a bs post. I promise to report this bs to the admins.
Juror #6 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

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Response to FSogol (Reply #30)

Thu May 29, 2014, 12:26 PM

38. interesting the one "Hide It" had no comment....Come here and explain yourself!

 

This is a great OP and there is always (that one person)


At least we know who the alerter was

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Response to FSogol (Reply #30)

Thu May 29, 2014, 01:30 PM

47. Jeepers!

If they were offended by that line, they should have p.m.ed me. I'd have been glad to help them with a superior response: "Well, H2O Man, if you don't want to attract flies, don't deposit a steaming pile of bullshit like this on DU."

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 12:25 PM

37. Yes, Life is a process.

Thank you for sharing a glimpse of your life with us.

K&R

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Response to Sissyk (Reply #37)

Thu May 29, 2014, 04:37 PM

57. Thanks.

Last Thanksgiving, my boys hosted the big get-together at their house. The boys told me later that their mother was a bit worried that my daughters wouldn't like her. Not an issue: they think she's great. The younger one invited her and her husband to her high school basketball games. She said to him, "If you like hockey, you'll love our team."

All of those old hostilities are long gone. Water way under the bridge. I'm aware that, back when we split, I could be a flaming jerk. She is aware of what once were her faults. We are both looking forward to the day when we become grandparents.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #57)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:32 PM

74. If divorce has to happen (I've been through one pre kiddos)

I wish that was the way they could all be. Let's face it. The first thought upon agreeing to a divorce, or bringing up divorce, should be of the children.

It sounds as if you both matured a great deal, acknowledged that fact, and thought of the children. That's wonderful of you both.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 01:02 PM

42. Another great post, H20 Man.

Thank you for every word of it.

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Response to polly7 (Reply #42)

Thu May 29, 2014, 04:57 PM

58. Thank you.

It's a curious topic. I like to look to history for possible answers. Long ago -- in the 700-850 ad's -- the social structure of the people on my mother's side of the family was undergoing huge changes. After the "Three Sisters" were introduced. originally from Mexico, then by way of the Ohio River Valley people -- communities became larger, and much more sedentary. The bow & arrow had also been introduced. Hence, women became the primary producers of food, and men became more solitary in hunting.

One of the results was the beginning of men's societies. The symbol that best illustrates these would be the wooden face masks, of the medicine societies. These masks were originally small, round stones, with rather crude eyes and mouths carved into them. It was later that they were carved into living trees.

Haudenosaunee culture became matriarchal in structure. The man married into the women's family/clan. Their children traced their roots through their mother and grandmothers. Women were in charge of decisions regarding divorce.

Thus, those men's societies were the way that men adopted to the changes. It would be silly to claim that they were all positive. But they evolved into something positive.

Men and women were recognized as being equal. That didn't mean that men and women were mistakenly viewed as exact. Children had the greatest rights. They were put first.

Exactly how far this culture might have progressed, if not for European intervention, is hard to say. But, as has been said, it held great promise.

Today, if there is a family issue at Onondaga, the non-Indian courts recognize that the nation has jurisdiction. The Elders -- both men and women -- decide issues, always based upon what is best for the children. I remember the afternoon that I got married for the second time. (Actually, the second time with the second person; Chief Waterman had already married us, but to have the marriage recognized by NYS, we did it again!) Chief Waterman, serving as my "best man," was late in picking me up. So I drove to his house. He wasn't there! Yikes! But my sister told me that he had been called by the Nedrow family court, about a conflict involving a teenager. That came first, and rightly so.

Our current American culture has damaged both men and women by way of its rigid gender roles, etc. At some point, we need to put the war between the sexes behind us, and treat each other like human beings.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 01:32 PM

48. Terrific post, as always

Extra credit for this one though, as you knew when you posted it that some would give you flak for it. Now me, I know that the things people say to me on an internet forum shouldn't matter much, and yet I avoid drawing ire whenever possible. Even if, ESPECIALLY if, the thing drawing their ire is nothing but the unvarnished truth.

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Response to tkmorris (Reply #48)

Thu May 29, 2014, 05:06 PM

59. Wow. Thanks.

I knew that some people here would find the general topic offensive, but that if they read the OP with an open mind, they would know -- at very least -- that it was sincere. And, of course, there are some folks who would be offended if I said the sky was blue. That would be seen as evidence that I was a terrible person.

Above, another person stated that it was "bad timing." But any time a person says or does something that might go against the conventional, accepted concept of "correct," it is going to be viewed as "bad timing." What I wrote is real, and true. It in no way denies the reality of the terrible damage that a sexist (and sex-hating) culture does to human beings. Quite the opposite.

It's not the whole truth -- no post on this forum, or speech, or book, will capture the whole truth. But it is something that I think needed to be said.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 01:55 PM

49. Analogy: More than a few women might have a tendency to perceive "men's rights groups" like

more than a few rez indians might perceive "white folks rights groups".

In both of these cases, there is very little possibility of the historically dominant group getting any kind of a real grasp on the perspective of the oppressed group.

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Response to Zorra (Reply #49)

Thu May 29, 2014, 02:46 PM

50. You might be right.

It's possible that some people have only been exposed to the very real negativity of many men's rights groups. Hence, it's important to clarify: not all are bad. And those that focus on a positive thing -- men being responsible parents -- have a duty to confront individuals and groups that spew hatred. The fact that some might not understand initially -- be it a result of the limited information they have been exposed to, or weak analogies -- is no excuse for remaining silent.

Family court cases where custody is decided are not about the historic injustices done to people in the past. They are about what is best for children. Sometimes, one parent is toxic; there are parents who attempt to use children as pawns. Other times, financial incentives come into play. And in still others, both parents do care about their children, and want what is best for them, but are simply unable to agree with each other. In such instances, both parents deserve a fair hearing. So do their children.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 02:57 PM

52. I feel like I need to respond to this.

First let me say that I agree with the first part that the recent shooter was a freak and had serious issues/a definite hatred of women. I also believe he had other issues going on.

I will tell you the story of my dad. When he married my mom it wasn't his first marriage and he had children from a previous marriage. Young children. Their mother was a horrible woman and mother. Rarely did the support my dad paid go to support the kids. My mom and dad always ended up buying clothes, shoes, and winter coats for them. They really didn't have a choice it was either that or the kids did without.

My dads ex was always dragging him back to court for more support. She was able to do this because her employer paid her one amount on the books and another off--long time family friend--women have to stick together you see. That's what they said.

So, she kept getting more money, the kids kept getting nothing. She was going to the Bahamas and Santa wasn't coming cuz he was sick. She was an asshole about letting them come and visit too. My dad would go over there to see them. One day he went there and saw the youngest 2 years old at the time walking down the street, no shoes with a hot dog in each hand--that was dinner. His 5 year old sister was watching him. Another time, they were locked in a room so their mother could go out.

Finally they went to court to get custody. It took three times--even with the shit happening above. He got 3 of the 5 kids she was able to keep 2 of the older ones. The support stayed the same. Yeah, that's right, same amount for 2 kids as for five.

That woman put my dad and mom through the fucking wringer--and for the most part got what she wanted. The reason; the judge said the kids are always better off with the mother. My mom; a nurse, with her own children wasn't considered. Instead the woman who locked her kids in a fucking closet was thought to be better for the children.

My dad found a few groups of men that had been through the same thing. It was them that helped him finally get custody of the 3 kids. They never went back to their mother. She went to court all the time trying to get them back. THEY didn't want to go back.

Those men didn't hate women they loved their children. That was their focus. If not for them I don't know if my dad would have gotten custody of the my brothers.

I two of my brothers are divorced. One had no issues, one had a hell of time.

When I divorced my first husband the courts were easier on me.

While the courts have gotten better, they still favor women, no question about it.

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Response to one_voice (Reply #52)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:22 PM

62. Thank you.

I appreciate that you would share your experiences. There are, of course, some who insult personal experience for being "anecdotal." But real life is an anecdote. They are so separated from this, that they find all answers in a graph, a study, a statistic.

Family court deals exclusively in real life. The quality of justice differs, from court to court. If an injustice is done in a courtroom, be it against a male or female, they don't feel better because of a graph, a study, or ten pages of statistics (even with footnotes).

There is zero chance of creating a justice system, by advocating exclusively for one sex. When any person or group speaks out about this in a manner that promotes the interests of one group, by denying the interests of another group, they assist the dick drippings in the hateful "men's rights" groups. We should not add fuel to the fire. There are better ways.

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Response to one_voice (Reply #52)

Fri May 30, 2014, 02:42 PM

68. do you think that it's mostly women in divorce who lie about

 

their income and hide assets?

While what happend to your father is reprehensible, let's not forget the massive problem of deadbeat dads who lie and cheat to avoid paying child support, refuse to pay it, quit jobs rather than have their wages garnished for it, and also constantly sue to downwards modify their child support obligations.

There is quite a bit of doubt that the courts favor women.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #68)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:02 PM

69. Yeah, you have a point...

what happened to my dad should be down played cuz ya know....

There's no doubt that courts favor women. In Delaware the saying is...Delaware is a woman's state. Like I said it's getting better. At least I'm honest enough to admit that. You know you don't have to shit all over men to prove a point.

Courts do favor women, especially in custody.

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Response to one_voice (Reply #69)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:07 PM

70. Any statistics to counter the Pew study posted below, which contradicts your claim? nt

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Response to one_voice (Reply #69)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:49 PM

78. Repeating your claim that there is "no doubt" is not evidence of anything.

 

It's just repeating your personal opinion.

what happened to my dad should be down played cuz ya know....



that's how rational, empirical studies of public policy are supposed to work, by analysis of the entire system and everyone who is in it, not just one person's experience.

What happened to him was reprehensible, as I said, but plenty of reprehensible things happen to women under the court system too, and your father's experience is not more important than any of the women who have been screwed by the courts

My wife represents women who have had the shit beat out of them by their husbands. And, the fact that these 'men' beat the shit out of the children's mother is not considered a bar for them getting custody of the kids. Often times the mothers do not testify well in court, because they have PTSD and are basket cases, because the father beat the shit out of them for years, so the courts effectively reward the father for his years of beating the shit out of the mother.

Why does your dad's experience trump theirs?


You have your opinion, but you have not provided anything to establish that it is anything more than a subjective impression.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #78)

Fri May 30, 2014, 04:05 PM

83. I didn't say it trumped theirs...

I just get tired of the one upmanship that goes on here. Why can't someone just say damn that was some fucked up shit. Why; when it's a story about a man do you have to compare it to a woman. I am a woman. I am a rape survivor. I lived in a home with God awful domestic violence. I saw my mom shot in the face. I know all about PTSD. I don't feel the need to constantly do that. I'm secure enough in my womanhood that I don't need minimize something a man might have gone through by bringing up how difficult something has been for me or another woman.

You don't need to prove to me that women have had it hard/have it hard. I've lived that shit. Can a person just tell a story without having to fucking defend it. Jesus.

My personal experience is just that mine. Mine to tell. I wasn't trying to diminish anyone else's. I wasn't making light of anyone else's. I'd fucking appreciate if it wasn't done to me.

I will re-phrase my claim on custody to this. It's gotten easier for men to get custody of their children. Especially joint custody.


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Response to one_voice (Reply #83)

Fri May 30, 2014, 04:09 PM

85. you were citing your dad's case as proof that the system was biased against men.

 

no one is minimizing it--as I said what happened to him was reprehensible, an injustice.

But, it's also not proof of any claims about how the courts work in general.

no one's asking you to defend your story, no.

your claims that the court system is biased against men, hell yeah that needs to be defended

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #85)

Fri May 30, 2014, 04:24 PM

89. Fine I'll get those statistic as soon as you get me these...

let's not forget the massive problem of deadbeat dads who lie and cheat to avoid paying child support, refuse to pay it, quit jobs rather than have their wages garnished for it, and also constantly sue to downwards modify their child support obligations.



edited to add: it seems to me you felt the need to add that to minimize what my dad went through. As if I don't know those things happen.

No, you wanted to point out that women have it bad. As I said, one upsmanship.

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Response to one_voice (Reply #89)

Fri May 30, 2014, 04:35 PM

91. here ya go!

 

http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/p60-240.pdf

Short summary:

5.9 million (custodial parent) mothers awarded child support

36.8% of those mothers received full child support

That means non-custodial dads were in default/arrears 63.2% of the time. The average mother received only about 2/3 of the full child support.

Note that the percentages were similar where the dad was custodial parent, but that there are a lot more custodial mothers (5.9 million) due child support than fathers (922,000).

That's millions of childen getting inadequate material support from a parent.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #91)

Fri May 30, 2014, 05:01 PM

94. Where in that does it say...

they quit their jobs, lie cheat, and sue downward. That's the point I was making.

Also note in YOUR statistics that the percentages were similar for custodial dads. How about that.

edited to add: I will look for custody statistics when I'm done cooking dinner. Right now I'm just popping in and out. Don't want you to think I'm leaving you hanging.

Ok, I looked this is the what I could find.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2011pubs/p60-240.pdf


Demographic Characteristics
The majority of custodial parents
were mothers (82.2 percent), and
about 1 in 6 (17.8 percent) were
fathers, proportions which were not
statistically different from 1994

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Response to one_voice (Reply #94)

Fri May 30, 2014, 05:20 PM

95. seriously?

 

ask any divorce lawyer

there's a reason why every state has income imputation in place for child support cases-

especially common if the guy is self-employed. or works off the books.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+to+avoid+paying+child+support&hl=en&gbv=2&safe=active&oq=how+to+avoid+paying+child+support&gs_l=heirloom-serp.3..0l10.3806.6911.0.7020.33.10.0.5.5.0.344.1310.2-4j1.5.0....0...1ac.1.34.heirloom-serp..23.10.1387.NAhjsH_36fs

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #95)

Fri May 30, 2014, 06:49 PM

97. No not seriously...

guess I should have used this

I edited the other post with the statistics. http://www.democraticunderground.com/index.php

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 03:31 PM

53. Here is an article with some statistics from PEW research that show that in most cases,

the reason the father didn't get custody of the child is not due to bias in the courts. It is due to the fact that the father didn't WANT custody of the child. And when the father WANTS some kind of custody of the child, in the VAST MAJORITY of cases, they get it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/cathy-meyer/dispelling-the-myth-of-ge_b_1617115.html

Getting custody is not the reason MRA groups exist.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #53)

Thu May 29, 2014, 03:44 PM

55. But but but ... the 70's! And, ANECDOTES!

The lack of intellectual integrity on display is really disappointing.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #55)

Thu May 29, 2014, 03:50 PM

56. Ah, but as long as you

write in a reeeeeeaaally reasonable tone, soon all will understand the true meaning of MRA.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #55)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:14 PM

72. Right untill you actually dig into the documents the article spewed its conclusions from

 

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Response to Egnever (Reply #72)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:42 PM

76. That doesn't prove bias.

That just means in the 1.5% of cases when it was decided at trial, it mostly went to mothers. You don't know why, and you don't care.

There have been dozens of these studies and not one backs up the claims of MRAs.

Here’s what the Massachusetts Supreme Court’s Gender Bias Study reported (source).

We began our investigation of child custody aware of a common perception that there is a bias in favor of women in these decisions. Our research contradicted this perception. Although mothers more frequently get primary physical custody of children following divorce, this practice does not reflect bias but rather the agreement of the parties and the fact that, in most families, mothers have been the primary caretakers of children. Fathers who actively seek custody obtain either primary or joint physical custody over 70% of the time. Reports indicate, however, that in some cases perceptions of gender bias may discourage fathers from seeking custody and stereotypes about fathers may sometimes affect case outcomes. In general, our evidence suggests that the courts hold higher standards for mothers than fathers in custody determinations.


In fact, women who are victims of abusive husband's are seen as less fit parents and courts have given custody to abusers due to this fact.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #76)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:53 PM

79. It was more lopsided in mediation

 

And there is no way for either of us to know the motivations of the court in those cases. That doesnt negate the fact that in the overwhelming majority of instances where sole custody was decided it went to the mother.

Your report does not give a number for sole custody cases only a general number for cases including joint custody. Not very honest reporting there not to mention the report is from 1990.

The fact remains the article I responded to states things that are not borne out by it's own sources. Or by yours for that matter as yours does not include sole custody numbers.

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Response to Egnever (Reply #79)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:58 PM

80. Since courts are tougher on mothers in general, requiring a higher standard for them,

to the point that abusive father's are granted sole custody, I wonder why the first thing people think of to explain fewer fathers being awarded sole custody is bias against men.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #80)

Fri May 30, 2014, 04:12 PM

86. I would love to see some data that says the courts are tougher on mothers in general.

 

When it comes to custody. The numbers dont seem to indicate that.

However I do think there is a problem with the courts favoring joint custody above all. Including cases where it forces people on either side of an abusive relationship to interact.

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Response to Egnever (Reply #86)

Fri May 30, 2014, 04:24 PM

88. I agree about the favoring of joint custody.

The Massachusetts study I linked before refers to the higher standard.

There is also a wealth of evidence in the studies linked here
http://www.leadershipcouncil.org/1/pas/dv.html

An even better way to find out is to directly contact the people involved in the very small number of court-decided custody cases. That is most revealing of all.

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Response to Egnever (Reply #79)

Fri May 30, 2014, 04:35 PM

92. The article that you responded to does not state things that are not borne out by its own sources.

You keep saying that, but it's simply not true.

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Response to Egnever (Reply #72)

Fri May 30, 2014, 04:33 PM

90. The message doesn't change when you dig into the documents.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #53)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:48 PM

65. Talk about a balloon deflating.

My singular experience is my own and not necessarily a representation of the norm. But the reason why my mother won custody is that my father initially made it very clear he wanted the business and she could keep the children. Because that's all he gave a shit about. Once he realized this was transparently self-serving, he was humiliated and immediately began the process of regaining either partial or sole custody.

I was forced by his idiocy to attend therapy sessions with a court appointed mediator whose job was to determine what kind of relationship we as children had with our father. After a month or so, she reported back to the court not only that the relationship was tenuous at best but also that he was a deeply troubled, selfish individual. After that, he kept his mouth shut.

I remember several years later, one of the last times I ever spoke to him, he told me how he fantasized about killing my mother and stepfather with a gun.

In my case, the court system worked despite being unable to get him to choke up the 50,000 dollars he owed in back child support. My mother will probably never see that money. But the system kept us, the children, out of the hands of a delusional, self-righteous asshole. And I have a hard time believing that, underneath this, there exists a world diametrically opposed to all other realms of society, which crucifies "noble" fathers and worships at the feet of mothers.

Being frank, such a perspective makes no goddamn sense.

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Response to Gravitycollapse (Reply #65)

Fri May 30, 2014, 02:22 PM

66. I am so sorry you had to experience that.

But I am glad that the courts worked correctly in your case to keep you with the parent who wanted you and could care for you. I'm also glad you have severed your relationship with him. He doesn't sound safe.

Be well.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #53)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:11 PM

71. hmm that article has a few problems

 

First it does not say anywhere that when it does go to court the father gets custody in the vast majority of cases. Second the link the the pew report is broken. And lastly the math is horrendous.

Maybe you could find a better article that supports your conclusions. That one doesn't get there.

In fact if you follow some of the links provided by that article they directly contradict your conclusion.

http://divorcepeers.com/stats18.htm


When custody is decided at trial
Sole possession to mother
44%
Sole possession to father
11%
Joint possession
40%
Other
5%

and when you look at when it is decided in mediation it is even more lopsided.

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Response to Egnever (Reply #71)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:46 PM

77. Hmmm. Maybe you should read my post and the article again. What both say is that the reason

fathers get custody in a smaller percentage of cases is that fathers often don't ask for custody.

I don't see any problems with the math. Maybe you are not reading the numbers correctly.

As far as the numbers you cite from divorcekeepers, what I see there is that in somewhere between 51% and 56% of the time, fathers get custody, either sole or shared. If your problem is with the difference between the percentage of sole custody given to the mothers and the sole custody given to the fathers, I would posit that the same condition that applied in the non-court decided 91% applies here: fathers don't WANT sole custody of their children, don't ASK for it, and therefore don't get it. That doesn't qualify as prejudice against fathers.

If you want to see the PEW research, google Pew Social Research: a tale of two fathers.

I don't see an problems with this article. If you would like to find an article that disproves the idea that fathers don't ASK for custody as often as mothers, you should certainly do so.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #77)

Fri May 30, 2014, 04:07 PM

84. Which has absolutely nothing to do with what H2O man said in his post

 

I will agree that it is impossible to tell why the numbers lean so far towards women getting sole custody without better data.

Divorcekeepers was the link provided in the article.

Joint custody seems to be the preferred outcome for the courts so much so that the courts will take that over sole custody even when abuse is involved and that is a whole other problem.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 05:11 PM

60. Exellent Thread

I enjoyed reading it.

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Response to ConnorMarc (Reply #60)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:22 PM

63. Good.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Thu May 29, 2014, 09:43 PM

61. An excellent post, well thought out, and well written

Its too bad that some people here can't learn from such posts.

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Response to HuskiesHowls (Reply #61)

Thu May 29, 2014, 11:44 PM

64. Thanks.

One of the primary reasons that I post some essays here, is to make people think. I state my opinion, and sometimes people agree, other times they disagree, but more often than anything, people read part or all, but do not respond.

On topics such as this, there are a number of responses that are easy to predict. That can be a good thing, if it leads to a meaningful discussion. On the other hand, there are a few that I simply ignore. I never read, much less respond, to their posts on DU. But they post on mine OPs.

Whatever gets posted in the responses to an OP are helpful, in that they provide more for readers who don't comment,to think about. And I am confident that people are capable of thinking for themselves. They have life experiences that allow them to decide if one person is telling the truth, and another is twisting facts/ statistics.

This has been an interesting discussion of a controversial subject.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 02:30 PM

67. calling bullshit on your 'friends' in NY's legal community

 

the playing field is at least level for men, the law is explicitly level, there are a lot of judges and referees and magistrates and attorneys for the child who are either misogynists or pig ignorant on issues like domestic violence.

And if the father beats or molests the kids, the mother is faced with the choice of covering his crime up by not mentioning it, or mentioning it and facing sanctions from the bullshit "parental alienation syndrome" body of case law.


No, people should not take your word for it.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #67)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:25 PM

73. from the article you applauded upthread

 

http://divorcepeers.com/stats18.htm

Child custody outcomes: Mediation and trial

When parents mediate

When parents go to evaluation or trial
Sole possession to mother
Mediation 63%

Trial 44%
Sole possession to father
Mediation 6%

Trial 11%
Joint possession
Mediation 25%

Trial 40%
Other
Mediation 6%

Trial 5%


Lays it out pretty clearly despite the odd conclusions reached by the author of the article linked upthread. In fact after delving into that authors links it is baffling how they came to the conclusions they did.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #67)

Fri May 30, 2014, 03:59 PM

81. You're silly.

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #81)

Fri May 30, 2014, 10:42 PM

98. how many divorce cases have you tried as an attorney lately? nt

 

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #98)

Sat May 31, 2014, 08:00 AM

101. 1

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #101)

Sat May 31, 2014, 11:47 AM

106. my wife has about 70 current divorce clients.

 

sorry if I take her input over yours.

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Response to geek tragedy (Reply #106)

Sat May 31, 2014, 12:21 PM

107. Always glad

when you are on the other side in any discussion. Thanks!

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Response to H2O Man (Reply #107)

Sat May 31, 2014, 12:22 PM

108. likewise! nt

 

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 04:04 PM

82. k&r for exposure. n/t

-Laelth

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 04:22 PM

87. The fact that women today get custody more often is due to patriarchal stereotypes.

It's patriarchy that depicts women on a pedestal, as paragons of virtue and motherhood. That's one of the things feminists are fighting against. Surely you don't think it's female judges making all those decisions to place children in the hands of mothers rather than fathers? Male judges far outnumber female ones. So your "Men's Rights" groups have apparently failed to convince other men--male judges--to give them custody. And yet that's somehow supposed to be women's fault? Wow.

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Response to scruboak (Reply #87)

Fri May 30, 2014, 06:17 PM

96. I may need to go back and reread his post

 

But I don't think it assigned blame to anyone

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Response to Egnever (Reply #96)

Sat May 31, 2014, 10:30 AM

105. I did not.

Some folks -- like the one you responded to -- make assumptions, and come up with "responses" before reading what's in front of them. That prevents them from being able to process the information they are reading.

The closet thing to "blame" that can be found in the OP is how the system worked for far too long. It reflected patriarchal values and gender roles. And I put the responsibility for being a responsible father on men -- most of whom are responsible parents. (There are, of course, irresponsible parents who are male, and others who are female.)

Other folks have brought up family/ domestic violence. There is no family violence that I have ever defended. In fact, for several decades, as a social worker, I specialized in family violence (prevention and treatment). I covered four counties in upstate New York. And the most common form of family violence that is reported, investigated, and confirmed, is that of parent against child. One could speculate that other types happen more frequently, and are under-reported, but that is speculation. Documented cases are parent against child. And the most frequent offenders were not fathers.

In that work, my tasks were found in two primary areas: the first would be documenting reported incidents, and assessing the parents' likelihood of benefiting from counseling; and second, working with parents to learn better skills to eliminate violence.

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Response to scruboak (Reply #87)

Sat May 31, 2014, 12:28 PM

109. BINGO

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Fri May 30, 2014, 04:49 PM

93. Kids do best after a split when both parents are involved with them

It's just hairy as hell during the split when the father is complaining about being raped financially and the mother is complaining about what an utter and complete bastard he's been to her and the kids.

But yes, unless the dad is abusing the kids, he needs to be given equal consideration when it comes to custody. Even dads who are total flakes are teaching their kids what not to be.

I know a few cases where the dad fought hard and got primary custody, Mom getting the kids for holidays and during the summer. The moms found their relationships with the kids getting better, even though she was the one who had to schedule them for things that Dad didn't think of, like dental appointments.

The Men's Rights groups that talk about stuff like this are necessary. The rest of them? Not so much.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat May 31, 2014, 08:52 AM

104. Denmark

It is my understanding that in Denmark, when there is a divorce, custody is 50/50, everything is 50/50.

I think this would be the way to go. But to get there, the US - in every state, also needs such things as universal day care and absolute equity in job pay -which I take to mean that pay should have some relation to how much training is required - which is not the case, now.

Our society has accepted that 'women's work' - the type of work that women tend to do is worth less. So much so, that as women have moved into different professions (previously dominated by men), the pay will go decrease, relative to other jobs.

There are many aspects of society which need to become equal for men and women - to make divorce settlements more fair. This would result in much less to fight about in courts - which would be a good thing. We are no where near there. The actions of Republicans push us farther apart equality-wise, but Democrats could do better, also.

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Response to H2O Man (Original post)

Sat Jun 7, 2014, 12:53 PM

110. Honestly, I can't find anything at all offensive in this.

I am baffled by some of the comments. And allerting this post? Really?

As always, H2O Man, I want to thank you for sharing this personal journey. Your posts are always such a gift, and I find myself looking forward to reading them. You articulate the complexities of an issue so well, and in so doing, you give us here at DU an opportunity to reflect. Life is rarely as simple as black and white. It is filled with a whole spectrum of color and depth. Thank you.

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