The only thing that holds a fake country together is a dictator

[SoCalDem]

When the dictator is deposed or dies, civil war usually follows. It sucks, but that's just the way it is.

We keep getting entangled in these messes, and just end up with everyone hating us in the end (they never really end, as long as people with memory are alive..and even beyond that).

Unfortunately, the Middle East is an artificial construct, made by westerners with maps & pencils. These countries have no long-term history of democracy, and do not readily embrace it, because their factions are based on religion.This present danger in the Middle East is one that needs to be "solved" by neighbors of the similar sects, and what shakes out at the end is what we have.

Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan need to step up and solve the problem that's on THEIR borders.

This is what hyper-religiosity brings.. chaos & death..

We need to stay OUT of it...was never should have meddled in the first place, and our 10 year adventure only made it worse now.

[DrDan]

1. BINGO!

[HooptieWagon]

2. Yep.

The idea of forcing democracy upon Iraq and Afghanistan at gunpoint was stupid. Better to let them fight, detetmine their own borders, and their own form of govt.

[malaise]

3. The British imperialists are responsible for a fair amount of the chaos on this planet

Divide and rule was their modus operandi.

[valerief]

4. We went in so rich people could get richer. Period. nt

[Enthusiast]

12. I believe there is something to this.

Someone should be held accountable for this malfeasance.

[DetlefK]

5. Yugoslawian civil war in the 1990s.

During the Cold war, the iron grip of communist dictator Josip Broz Tito held the country together.

After the collapse of the Soviet Union, the rifts between the nationalities began to re-emerge.

During WWII, the Croats had fought alongside the Nazis against the Serbs.
Now, while the other nationalities were eying secession, the Serbs were gaining political power in Yugoslawia.
As a result, the Croats formed self-defence militias.
As a result, the Serbs feared a violent Croat uprising like in WWII.
The yugoslawian army fought the croatic secession-attempt at the same as the Serbs exacted revenge on the Croats for WWII.
...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars

[Little Star]

6. Exactly.

[NRaleighLiberal]

7. oil. hubris. revenge = hopeless folly.

[PeoViejo]

8. We have are own American Taliban to worry about.

..and there's very little difference in mindset among them all.

[cantbeserious]

9. All True - We Went To War Because We Could To Make The 1% Wealthier

eom

[exboyfil]

10. Heck even Scotland and to a leseer extent

Wales are pushing for home rule. Scotland even has a referendum for independence coming up.

[Enthusiast]

11. Most of us knew the Iraq War would ultimately result in disaster.

We said so before teh fucking invasion.

Any reasonable arguments against the preemptive strike were quickly shouted down—Phil Donahue. The religious demographics were perfectly clear. How could anyone with half a brain think the Iraq War was a good idea.

And the media is so clamped down that we still cannot have a discussion on TV where someone says, "The Iraq War was terrible idea right from the start. It was ill advised at best and that is being charitable."

I guess it might reflect poorly on G W Bush. Well, duh. Those fuckers should be ashamed to show their face.

[arcane1]

19. Exactly. The best we can say on tv is "it wasn't planned well"

[90-percent]

13. Dont be too hard on Bushco

Since we invaded Iraq, our borders have been completely free of smoking guns in the form of mushroom clouds.

See, the invasion did indeed make us safe.

-90% Jimmy



PS - I remember the times after 9-11 when GWB was hell bent on invading, A Joe McCarthy-esque iron curtain draped our country and we all became very watchful of what we said, cuz if you ain't with GWB, yur with the terra wrists! It was so creepy because the entire MSM was in fascist lock step with what ever GWB wanted to "get the people that did this to us."

[LittleGirl]

22. and look what that got us

especially now. sad isn't it?

[smiley]

14. we've been meddling in the middle east

since the dawn of the age of oil.

[nyabingi]

15. All of the countries thrown together

by imperialist Westerners (in the Middle East and Africa specifically) need to decide their own borders, allegiances, and forms of government based on peaceful existence with their neighbors.

The the Sunni and Shiite denominations in Iraq have decided they absolutely cannot live together peacefully in the same country, then they should go ahead and agree on borders right now and create their own countries.

It is the nature of imperialism to not care about the people being invaded and subjugated, so its no surprise that Iraq is coming apart at the seams right now.

[mountain grammy]

16. Who could have seen this coming? Every single one of us on this forum for one

and anyone who took five minutes to really think about it. And McCain blames Obama... unbelievable!!

[dem in texas]

17. The invasion of Iraq was Totally Immoral

For all the Christians in this country to ignore this basic fact is unbelievable. We attacked when Iraq did not pose a serious threat to the US and killed thousands of innocent people. Our reasons were based on outright lies. This was totally against the teachings of Jesus. How can these right wingers justify this. We did a terrible thing. Do you think there were racist underpinnings of this? Get those Muslins who caused 9-11? Or was it the greed for oil? Will we ever know? It is a black mark on American history, that is for sure.

I totally agree, they will have a civil war and maybe split into three countries like they once were. that is what happened in Yugoslavia where they went back to the way they once were after their dictator died.

[raouldukelives]

23. It was and is for resource protection.

It is said an army runs on its stomach and our stomach happens to be full of high octane. I think this fact is pretty much incontrovertible.
Racism? Sure. They will use whatever means to help stir the passions of people and whips them into a killing frenzy. That has us saluting as young people, mislead & propagandized by our leaders and media, are convinced to help kill poor people on the other side of the world for a few dollars a day.
To them, it is never about the oil or the territory. It is called helping spread peace and democracy. To bring stability, toothbrushes & American ethics to out of control regions.
Oddly enough, this never seems to happen in areas that have no resources or a militarily important location.

As for the rabid support of our Christians. You or I might read passages and take away a meaning of immense charity, even in the face of the most extreme violence, maybe even especially then, for what matters it when the way is easy and wide? The true test of a persons beliefs and faith comes in the harshest of opportunities.
The true leaders of our American Christians, the wealthy and connected, only carry the mantle for personal gain. It is always the same with them in whatever they profess a belief or disbelief in. But along the way in pandering to those voters, over the decades of wars, they have had to warp and tangle the words of reality, religion & science to suit them and to reassure those employed to commit the acts of "valor" in the name of freedom. So that today, it is not uncommon to see people openly preaching and drawing waves of applause for comments that your or I would find entirely opposite to what any Red Letter Christian would take as gospel or any scientist would consider a known fact.

[grahamhgreen]

18. Invading again would merely postpone, not prevent, what is happening.

[Javaman]

20. Actually, Iraq did have democratic elections back in the 1950s...

and that ended with the CIA orchestrating the overthrow of the duly elected president and installed our own puppet.

that entire region has been completely screwed up since end of WW1

[Crunchy Frog]

31. I thought that was Iran, or was it Iraq as well? n/t

[SoCalDem]

32. It was Iran..Mohammad Mosaddegh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh

[Javaman]

37. You are correct. I confused it with Iran...

we helped over through the monarchy in Iraq in 1960 my bad.

[truebluegreen]

35. It was Iran in 1953.

An Iran which looked up to the US (not a colonial power) and modeled its constitution after ours.

But you are right, we (i.e. the CIA) totally screwed the pooch. Many Islamic scholars date the radicalization of Islam to that incident.

[Javaman]

38. Yeah, my bad.

I confused our many CIA exploits LOL

we did help Iraq get rid of their monarchy though, so there is that. LOL

[blackspade]

21. Agree with one correction...

The factions are at their core tribal, not religious (not that that is not a part of the problem).

[paleotn]

24. Oil.....

the only reason the Middle East is more than just a footnote in US foreign policy. Nothing would please me more than if we just stayed the hell out of the region, but as long as the western industrialized economies run on oil, we will be there, diplomatically and militarily if necessary. Since the price of oil is determined globally, for all practical purposes, we don't have a choice. I just wish we'd act more intelligently and less like a damn bull in a china closet. Seems our leaders on both sides of the aisle can never fully grasp the concept of blow back.

[Thespian2]

25. Well said

Back in the '60's in a college history class we came to a similar conclusion. At least we knew then that the Middle East would be a major problem which, theoretically, could start WW III. With the likes of idiots like RayGun and murders like Bush, Cheney, Rummy, and Condi, America became involved in a place it should never have entered militarily. Mostly for the sake of saving Israel's ass and stealing oil.

[kelliekat44]

26. Iraq was pretty much secular under Saddam with women and children being education, religious sects

living together and inter-marrying. Of course, the Bathists were in power but they at least ran the country. Sunnis had the upper hand but Jews and other religions including Christianity (remember Tarik, Saddam's right hand man and ambassador to US was a Christian). We invaded, dispersed the government managers, occupied, destroyed their antiquities, robbed and looted their wealth, killed their people, and opened the door for AQI (who was never there under Saddam) to do just what they are doing now. And it is not going to be pretty and we should stay the hell out and bring our people home. NOW, as soon as safely possible. And McCain, STFU!!!

[KittyWampus]

27. I'm pretty sure the Saudis don't want to solve the turmoil as it masks their own corruption.

[The2ndWheel]

28. I agree with your overall point

Not sure why you specify religion though. The borders of any country have had to be made through war. It's not because of religion per se, but because of organization in general. Organization has brought chaos and death more so than just one form of it.

If you want borders to be somewhat settled, and for them to make sense, you have to allow people directly involved to fight it out. America wouldn't have existed if there was a UN back when America had to go through a few wars to figure things out.

Then again I wonder from time to time what exactly it is that keeps the US together. Such a large amount of people organized over such a large amount of land is as artificial as anything westerners in the Middle East or Africa with paper and pencils ever thought up.

Every country that has ever existed has been fighting against entropy since they formed. Any organized effort has. Constantly needing more and more energy to maintain business as usual, and to grow. As the human body eventually breaks down, so do countries. Especially those countries that were never healthy to begin with.

[get the red out]

29. Absolutely

Hit the nail on the head.

[AnotherWyoDemocrat]

30. From the title of this post

I thought the reference was to the USA.

[truebluegreen]

33. Include Turkey, for the Kurds.

Otherwise right on.

[JCMach1]

34. trouble is Saudi Arabia and Jordan are also 'fake' countries...

[moondust]

36. Not our proxy war.

Let the Saudis and Iranians sort it out.

Maybe it's time to partition. Or past time.