The CORRECT rules for dating my daughter

[Kelvin Mace]

https://s3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/qbrnc9L2AffVfgfn4.KK0Q--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7cT04NTt3PTYzMA--/

[JustAnotherGen]

1. Amen

And my father would have added - Regardless of the Rules Understand that I Don't Like You

[zazen]

2. k&r, but I'd add #5: until she's 18, I still make some of the rules n/t

[Kelvin Mace]

4. Hate to break it to you

But by 18, most teens have made their own rules about sex. Most of us adults somehow forget that this was true when we were teens.

[zazen]

6. But, they don't make rules about cars, money, curfew, and supervision. . .

unless their parents cave in to the fear of being temporarily "hated" and let them. I'm not saying you do that, but I see a lot of it among other families.

But yes, you are absolutely right that once they are alone with a prospective partner, they do make their own rules (or have them inflicted on them by those partners, as the t-shirt indicates). I'm parenting (have parented) two emotionally healthy, feminist, high achieving teenage daughters and was a self-destructive, exploited teenaged girl myself, so I understand that our job is to help them make the best choices for themselves, including doing everything they can to pre-identify abusers (which I was never taught to do). But that scaffolding doesn't stop when they hit 13. Parents who are willing to impose loving limits while providing more and more opportunities for them to make their own choices make a big difference, and I'm not giving that up until my youngest hits 18.

They still need (want) us afterward, as I'm reminded every week, but then they usually ask me--a parent doesn't proactively intervene after they graduate from high school.

[Kelvin Mace]

8. Very true,

but they do make the rules about their bodies. As you point out, the dad in the picture seems to understand that, other parents don't at their peril.

Yes, parents need to set rules and boundaries, but most importantly they have to be realistic and reality-based. I see a lot of folks who aren't. Discussions of sex, drugs, and alcohol boil down to:

"Don't or I will disown you."
"Don't or you will be a slut."
"Don't or you you will die."
"Don't because it is bad."
"Don't because you will get hairy palms."

I am a bit weirder in that I don't believe parents should lie to their children, even about "trivial stuff like "Santa Claus". You should also never lie about your own mistakes. Once you lie to a child, you have zero credibility in the future. You seem to have learned from your own past and been honest with your kids. The dad in the picture seems to have done the same thing.

[Seeking Serenity]

11. Or, as it is and will be in my house,

Don't or you'll be punished.

They may do it, underage kids break rules plenty, but that doesn't make it OK. If I catch them or get evidence of it, they will be punished.

[Brickbat]

3. Love this. Number 4 is really all you need.

[raccoon]

5. Wouldn't it be nice if males realized every female is somebody's daughter? nt

[F4lconF16]

38. Wouldn't it be nice if men realized women were people too?

I don't care if she's someone's daughter, she's a person, worthy of the same basic decency and respect everyone else is. Men are capable of this; expect it of them.

[Xyzse]

7. That guy is Jacked.

Would still give the father tons of respect however.

[rtw]

9. Disagree

Sorry, I am firmly in the providing guard rails camp. There are most definitely rules. The first being, you want to date my daughter, you best not text "here" from the driveway.

In fact, I find the shirt kind of creepy. IMVHO, I don't see anything remotely feminist about reducing your daughter to her dating sexual behaviors and that was my reaction when I saw it.

[Kelvin Mace]

10. As I pointed out in another post

Teens pretty much have their own rules about their bodies and sex and those are the rules that are going to prevail when the rubber meets the road (no word play intended, one hopes rubbers are involved). Hopefully, a parent has taught their kids (daughters and sons) factually and realistically about sex. If taught properly, they will make informed and sensible decisions.

But make no mistake, they will be indulging based on their own decisions, not their parent's. That is why it is so critically important they be factually informed.

[rtw]

12. I think you leave a couple of things out.

One, whether they admit it or not, teens listen to their parents (eventually?). So it is also important to impart your values around sex, not leave them swinging in the wind so that they never hear from you how you feel or your expectations of them.

Two, the message still reduces the daughter to a piece of flesh. If this is the extent of your respect for your daughter, chances are she will not have a whole lot of self-respect.

Again, just totally disagree there is anything remotely feminist about the message.

[LadyHawkAZ]

14. Teaching your daughter about the importance of her consent and control

of her own body is disrespectful? Really?

[rtw]

16. No

But reducing her to a one-dimensional piece of flesh is.

[LadyHawkAZ]

17. You've got it backwards

Reducing her to a piece of flesh is what happens when someone other than her is exercising control over her body. It is not what happens when she is being encouraged to make her own rules and decisions.

[rtw]

19. Sorry again

IMVHO, in that message, Dad is abdicating his responsibility as a protector of his daughter. As long as my daughter is ok with it, go for it, is how I read it. That is a piece of flesh. I have a 16 year old. You better believe I will be asking the when, where and with who questions. And the answer might be no. And dad and I actually would like to speak with the young man who is coming over. I hope that this will give her the sense of protection and worth and empowerment she needs to be able to speak her mind when the time comes.

[LadyHawkAZ]

20. Yep, that's exactly what he's saying

That doesn't mean he isn't being supportive or isn't willing to act as enforcer if her date tries to break her rules.

If the daughter is OK with something and the father chooses to override it anyway, without any regard for her choices or what she feels is right, that is treating her as a piece of flesh. Particularly where sex is concerned, since it teaches young women that their consent is irrelevant and decisions on sex are best left up to a man.

[rtw]

21. We'll have to disagree

I guess a big component of this is the message dad gives. Is it I'm the dad that's why or is it I value you and you deserve more.

So, as someone else pointed out earlier, we don't have this mentality about cars, money, curfew, etc. I wonder why it is we have it about sex. Also, how far does it go? Does this mean that if daughter wants boyfriend to spend the night thats ok? If she wants to sext with him, we as parents should stay out of it because its ok with her? I don't understand why on this one particular issue we should be totally hands off.

[LadyHawkAZ]

23. Recommended reading:

http://www.amazon.com/Not-Under-My-Roof-Parents/dp/0226736199

It's not just the one issue. Once a teen is old enough to date, they are old enough to (theoretically) start using their own judgement on consent (theoretically, because parents tend to do their damndest to make sure their daughters don't know how). We do the same with all the other things you mentioned: once they are old enough to earn their own money, they get to decide how it's spent, for good or ill; once they buy their own car, they get to drive when and where they please, as well as facing the responsibilities of insurance, gas and maintenance; curfews tend to get later as the teen gts older and more responsible, etc. The main difference is that parents will generally encourage a teen girl to learn responsibility with things like money and cars and curfews, but not with sexuality and consent; that's treated as a decision best controlled by Daddy till there's a hubby to take over. That's not the treatment you give a thinking human being, it's what you do with a small child or a possession. A piece of flesh, iow.

[rtw]

24. Yeah

We'll definitely have to disagree with the anything goes philosophy. The potential lifelong consequences of the 2 actions I described (facilitating the possibility of a child in someone who is in no way ready to raise that child and explicit photos potentially forever in the public domain) require that I have something to say about them for someone under the age of majority in my home. You know that teens are not always the clearest forward thinkers. That is why in the other areas you mentioned there are almost always first guard rails. They must earn that trust, totally agree. We disagree on how best to convey that empowerment.

[LadyHawkAZ]

35. I appreciate your ability to disagree without being disagreeable

It's a rarity here.

[rtw]

41. Thank you

For the conversation!

[CBGLuthier]

15. Impart YOUR values? But what if YOUR values are wrong?

Considering just how much lunacy and bullshit surrounds the sexual education of our children I would think that would be a valid question. A lot of people with wrong sexual values are parents.

[rtw]

18. I am willing to

Believe that the vast majority of parents have the health and protection of their children as paramount, as best as they know how to provide for that. The fact that there may be weirdo outliers does not negate the fact that it is important that your children know how you feel and your (hopefully high) expectations of them. Ultimately, though, we don't get to decide that for any other parent.

[Kelvin Mace]

22. The message is meant as rebuttal

to the original 8 rules, which are sexist in the extreme, treating the daughter as a possession of the father. This guy simply points out that he does not OWN his daughter and it is up to her to make choices about her relationships.

I find it hard to see a father recognizing that his daughter is a person as reducing her "to a piece of flesh".

You are certainly free to disagree.

[rtw]

25. I do disagree and that's ok!

I can't make my feeling any plainer then i have in the previous posts.

Had to look up the original 8. Honestly, i didn't analyze them, only skimmed, but from at least 3 of the 8 I didn't get sexism. You know how I feel about #1. Don't text from the driveway if you're coming to pick up my daughter! Another one is don't try to relate to me. Thought that was funny. The third I recall was you make her cry I'll make you cry. Doesn't every dad feel this way? I don't know, as I said, I just skimmed.

[Kelvin Mace]

30. The whole premise of the "Rules"

is the daughter is the dad's possession and he decides her relationships.

"The third I recall was you make her cry I'll make you cry. Doesn't every dad feel this way? I don't know, as I said, I just skimmed."

Uh, shouldn't this be a rule for daughters AND sons? I don't recall a TV show based on "8 Simple Rules for Dating My Son".

The whole pretext of the rules was MY daughter, thus MY rules. Females require rules to protect them, males do not. Males require threats of physical violence to force them act like human beings.

Sexist from start to finish.

[vi5]

28. Good luck with that.

I know more daughters of parents like you're describing yourself to be who wind up pregnant, with std's, in abusive/dysfunctional relationships, etc. than I do daughters of parents who have more honest, straightforward relationships with them similar to what the owner of the OP's shirt seem to have.

But hey, I'm sure you'll be the exception.

[JI7]

39. you are missing the point he is making with that

it's kind of a response to all the anti choice crap going on . from abortion to the purity nonsense and other shit.

[LadyHawkAZ]

13. I had a father like that

Everyone should.

[Boom Sound 416]

26. Until she's 18

I have veto power

[Kelvin Mace]

29. Again,

Yes, you do, except you don't.

You remember being a teenager? Did you do everything your parents wanted? Not break any rules? Did they know everything you did? Especially as it relates to sex?

Am I the only person on the planet who had sex as a teen without his parents knowing? (To my credit, I didn't drink, smoke or do any drugs).

[Boom Sound 416]

31. Yeesh. I put a smilie in there

[FBaggins]

44. Note, however, what's implied in your reply.

Not break any rules?

If you were breaking your parents' rules, then you at least recognized that they make those rules.

The point where you get to make your own rules varies somewhat with topic, but usually aligns with adulthood (that being when you support yourself).

[Kelvin Mace]

45. Parent's rules and "the law"

a different issues with different consequences for violation. Many parents rules will not result in jail if you break them. Teens need to be aware of the difference.

Lots of people "make rules" Parents, religion, Loyal Order of Water Buffaloes. Those enforced by the police are a different kettle of fish.

Adulthood is not a fixed time frame, even legally speaking, as many laws specify ages were certain things are legal/illegal. Why are you adult enough to make the decision to join an organization that allows you to legally kill people at 18 (and die or get maimed as a consequence), but this age is not considered mature enough to drink or smoke?

Parents have the right to make rules, teens decide whether to obey them or not.

[FBaggins]

47. Well.. sure. But I wasn't talking about the law.

For a teenager, the consequences of violating my rules are probably as serious as many laws. They care about their access to friends, electronics, finances, autos (etc).

Adulthood is not a fixed time frame

Certainly... but my reply was more along the lines of "my house... my rules". If you're mature enough to live on your own and support yourself, then my influence on the "rules" in your life has dwindled down to whatever respect I've earned throught the quality of prior advice. Prior to that point, my rules do carry weight.

I understand that the shirt is a rebuttal to a list that most fathers of daughters can at least sympathize with... but "I don't make the rules" is off-base, because I do - except to the extend that, like any male, I can't substitute my "yes" for her "no"... and I'd still like to leave in a "rule" that makes clear that if he tries to do so, I'll break more than a "rule".

[Kelvin Mace]

48. Gotcha!

I think we are in agreement here that the father in this instance is making a comment that his daughter is not his property (in contrast to the original "8 rules" piece). The shirt is silent on who will ENFORCE the rules she makes, but I think we would be safe to assume, as you point out, that the police would be the LEAST of the rule breakers worries.

[Mike Nelson]

27. Most guys would rather follow the daughter's rules...

...than the father's rules...

[Nye Bevan]

32. I hope that dude's daughter isn't like 14 or 15.

I don't have an issue with the T-shirt if the daughter is over 18, except that it demonstrates a somewhat creepy preoccupation with his daughter's sex life.

[Kelvin Mace]

33. Once again,

this is a satirical retort to the very sexist original "8 Simple Rules for Dating My Daughter".

Any parent who doesn't face the reality that teens have sex before the age of 18 is fooling themselves. According to Kinsey 1 in 4 have by age 15.

http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/FAQ.html#Age
http://www.kinseyinstitute.org/resources/FAQ.html#teensex

[fried eggs]

34. Not quite. There are statutory rape laws.

A responsible parent's rules should correspond with statutory rape laws.

[Kelvin Mace]

42. A responsible parent informs his daughter

about "the law".

[otohara]

37. Men With Guns Can't Date My Daughter

no effing way.

[Knightraven]

40. Sounds like the rules my other had when I started dating.

I was raised in a single parent household. So my Mother was the one to set the rules. No one ever wanted to cross her.

[1000words]

43. ... when she's 18.

There are numerous laws that trump some "rules" of a minor.

[Kelvin Mace]

46. The age of consent varies widely

thus 18 is NOT an absolute age.

The age depends on many circumstances.