General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsG. Greenwald is addicted to arguing, isn't he?
It's not whether he right or wrong, it's about his personality.
If he think he's being challenged, he's really quick on the draw with a retaliation. People like that have to alway be right, even if they're initially wrong and are prone to burn bridges.
I can see while he's not exactly a sympathetic character in some circles.
Gravitycollapse
(8,155 posts)LordGlenconner
(1,348 posts)I've often thought the same thing as I read the anti-Obama and Hillary threads.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)He is like a bulldog, he won't let any bullshit fly by without challenging it!
AtlantaBlue
(12 posts)I think what he said about the first amendment was an important point. When governments become opaque, they become increasingly totalitarian. Sunlight is the best disinfectant - U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis. As for when he went after the other guest, I guess you would have to understand how a lawyer is taught to think in law school. Letting one's opponent get the upper hand is the one sure way to lose the case. I didn't find anything wrong with his zealous representation of his client, Ed Snowden. And lets not forget, today the US House voted to restrict the NSA's ability to spy on Americans without a warrant. Does anyone think that this would have remotely happened without the work of Ed Snowden, Laura Poitras, and Glenn Greenwald? I know that I don't.
quinnox
(20,600 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Vattel
(9,289 posts)Obama tried to pretend that he called for a national discussion of NSA surveillance prior to Snowden's revelations, but if you look at the speech he referred to, it contains no such call.
ancianita
(35,932 posts)ancianita
(35,932 posts)Hassin Bin Sober
(26,311 posts)hfojvt
(37,573 posts)you might as well face it
bradla
(89 posts)Clarke said on Bill Maher's show that Snowden went too far and it damaged this country.
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)AtlantaBlue
(12 posts)First of all, I like Richard Clarke. However, Clarke admitted years ago that the intel on Saddam's mobile weapons labs and his WMD production capabilities were non-existant when Colin Powell went to the UN to make the case to the world. Clarke said that he "touched up" the intel. Sorry folks, good intel doesn't need touching up. When Adlai Stevenson went to the UN in 1962 to make the case to the world that the Soviets had missiles in Cuba and were setting up launching systems, he didn't have a cartoon, as Powell did, he had actual photographs of the missiles, the launchers, and the work that was being done to make them read to deploy. That's actual proof of a threat. We were all sold a bill of goods on Iraq, and Clarke was a part of that sale -- even though he knew at the time it wasn't true. That is where I draw the line on Mr. Clarke. He should have resigned right then and there and spoken out about the fraud being perpetrated. I honestly believe that it was his guilt over this fact that made him appear before the Congress and apologize to the American people. The fact that he did this, and that he alone did this, speaks volumes about the state of secrecy in the United States Government.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Clarke shouldn't be worshiped just because he pointed out the obvious about Bush and Cheney. There is a lot he could've done better. Why isn't he criticizing NSA for spending inordinate amount of time combing through politicians, journalists, judges and other high profile figures emails, calls and texts. They aren't doing that to look for terrorists. Terrorism is now just the excuse to monitor and spy on people. Also, I believe it was Bush Sr who brought Clarke on board.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)realizing that Snowden is a lying tool.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)I'm chuckling at that comment. The whistleblowers aren't the liars...and it's the bureaucrats that are usually tools.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Last edited Mon Jun 23, 2014, 01:10 AM - Edit history (1)
I guess people do and say what's in their own interests. Mine is protecting our rights.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)He DID, however, disclose information.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)"A whistleblower (whistle-blower or whistle blower)[1] is a person who exposes misconduct, alleged dishonest or illegal activity occurring in an organization. The alleged misconduct may be classified in many ways; for example, a violation of a law, rule, regulation and/or a direct threat to public interest, such as fraud, health and safety violations, and corruption. Whistleblowers may make their allegations internally (for example, to other people within the accused organization) or externally (to regulators, law enforcement agencies, to the media or to groups concerned with the issues)."
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)"Between 1994 and 2010, the court had ruled for whistleblowers in only three of 203 cases decided on their merits, GAP's analysis found."
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/washington/2010-03-14-whistleblowers_N.htm
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)It's the law.
Cha
(296,844 posts)billhicks76
(5,082 posts)It surprising that Richard Clarke thinks terrorists were not aware of surveillance before Snowden. Wikileaks was revealing widespread wiretapping back in 2007. With all the corrupted, shallow, misleading journalists and pundits out there I find it incredulous and suspect when Greenwald gets all the attention. People who have it out for him could be spending their critical energies on those who sold us out.
lumpy
(13,704 posts)has done may not be over. If the documents that Snowden purloined should get into the hands of our enemies.......
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)Speculating about what bad things might happen doesn't cut it.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)He must be an addict.
Cha
(296,844 posts)you like a nasty hornet.
billhicks76
(5,082 posts)If you're not outraged then something's wrong.
Cha
(296,844 posts)billhicks76
(5,082 posts)Its the passive, vacuous stenographers who sell out for access and personal gain that alarm me.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)frazzled
(18,402 posts)is different. What is it you don't get about that?
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)billhicks76
(5,082 posts)The message is what's important to me. Not the messenger. Glenn is an actual journalist regardless of who he works with. I wish Michael Hastings was around too. But it's so true that if you don't have any haters you're doing something wrong.
PragmaticLiberal
(904 posts)And I'm not even arguing the substance of Glenn's positions.
I'm talking about his reactions.
I've seen quite a few times where the interviewer challenges Glenn about a particular topic and dude just flys off the handle.
And it's not like person asking the question was ultra aggressive either...
Cha
(296,844 posts)JDPriestly
(57,936 posts)Socratic method:
Socratic method (also known as method of elenchus, elenctic method, or Socratic debate), named after the classical Greek philosopher Socrates, is a form of inquiry and discussion between individuals, based on asking and answering questions to stimulate critical thinking and to illuminate ideas. It is a dialectical method, often involving a discussion in which the defense of one point of view is questioned; one participant may lead another to contradict himself in some way, thus strengthening the inquirer's own point.
The Socratic method is a negative method of hypothesis elimination, in that better hypotheses are found by steadily identifying and eliminating those that lead to contradictions. The Socratic method searches for general, commonly held truths that shape opinion, and scrutinizes them to determine their consistency with other beliefs. The basic form is a series of questions formulated as tests of logic and fact intended to help a person or group discover their beliefs about some topic, exploring the definitions or logoi (singular logos), seeking to characterize the general characteristics shared by various particular instances. The extent to which this method is employed to bring out definitions implicit in the interlocutors' beliefs, or to help them further their understanding, is called the method of maieutics. Aristotle attributed to Socrates the discovery of the method of definition and induction, which he regarded as the essence of the scientific method.
In the second half of the 5th century BC, sophists were teachers who specialized in using the tools of philosophy and rhetoric to entertain or impress or persuade an audience to accept the speaker's point of view. Socrates promoted an alternative method of teaching which came to be called the Socratic method.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method
The Socratic method is often used to teach law because it helps the student learn to argue both sides of a question. Glenn Greenwald is a lawyer so of course he is argumentative.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)...all the way to a Pulitzer prize, so he must be doing something right.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)lumpy
(13,704 posts)Maedhros
(10,007 posts)which DID receive the Pulitzer prize.
Way to split hairs. Do you ever have anything useful and informative to post, or do you just dribble this kind of nonsense about?
/ignore.
lumpy
(13,704 posts)Snowden's 'revelations' received a prize. Look it up if you doubt.
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)lumpy
(13,704 posts)The fact remains The Guardian newspaper got the Pulitzer. Yes, Greenwald was a reporter, but it is incorrect that he has promoted the idea and has claimed winning any prize. Read
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)Here is what one "reads" in the article.
"On Monday, Greenwald and other journalists at The Guardian and The Washington Post were awarded the Pulitzer for their reporting on the National Security Agency."
I don't "assume" when "reading" will suffice.
Maedhros
(10,007 posts)He's just trying to discredit an honest journalist with smears.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Greenwald really has some anger issues. I actually feel sorry for him. I hope he gets his issues straightened out.
People with these kind of psychological issues rarely even realize it.
Do you remember how he treated his old business partner? In an email he called him a bitch and a whore.
Clearly there are underlying anger issues.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)anger issues
Psychological issues
Sly allusions to instability and troubled past.
This kind of crap just keeps dribbling and dribbling from the keyboards of the NSA defenders. It's twisted and sick.
elias49
(4,259 posts)'the poor soul'. Ugh. How disingenuous.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)It's actually something they can't control and usually it ends horribly.
I think a lot of people don't take psychological instability as seriously as they should.
Far too often people are just branded as "crazy" and written off without getting the help they need.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Just stop with the sly allusions and amateur diagnosing.
Vattel
(9,289 posts)lumpy
(13,704 posts)the shoulders of a thief who stole vital information from the US government to the detriment of US citizen security.
Fawke Em
(11,366 posts)Seriously, what's happened since these revelations that has hurt the US government or its citizenry? Other than hurting the secrecy the NSA hides in, that is.
lumpy
(13,704 posts)is worrisome. I'm alluding to the fact that if some of that document information falls into enemy hands, it could be to the detriment of the US. I am sure government officials are concerned about the possibility of that happening. Those having access to the documents are required to scan them for possible US security concerns according to Greenwald. Is that to be trusted? I guess that is why we haven't seen more documentation released.
Your snark is noted. Cute.
Cha
(296,844 posts)a libertarian a$$hole who's an enemy to America.
tea and oranges
(396 posts)One absolutely totally shocking example (he called someone a bitch & whore, OMG!) that's in no way backed up w/ a link or anything is more than enough for the already inclined.
If we could take the downright dirty personal crap out of politics, what would we ever do for fun?
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Casting someone's righteous fervor for truth as "anger issues" and mental instability is just sick and twisted stuff.
tea and oranges
(396 posts)Tarring people w/ the brush of mental illness is so 1950's. And unenlightened.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)Vattel
(9,289 posts)What amazes me about your smearing is how ham-handed it is. It's like you aren't even smart enough to realize how transparent your smears are.
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Sweet!
Lint Head
(15,064 posts)this week to tracking your movements using data from your cell phone without a warrant when it declared that this information is constitutionally protected.
http://www.wired.com/2014/06/davis-undermines-metadata/
MannyGoldstein
(34,589 posts)He is loved, we'll love him more when we lock his ass in a black prison. Must be paranoid, should be institutionalized.
Regards,
Third-Way Manny
QuestForSense
(653 posts)It's what they do, and they do it well. They love it.
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Cha
(296,844 posts)How so?
Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Cha
(296,844 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)Cha
(296,844 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)I never argued either way. I simply stated that the OP's argument was invalid, as is your argument. Rational discussion should depend upon valid logic, in my opinion.
If you wish to state that Greenwald is wrong. don't forget to add the 'in my opinion' unless you can actually prove he is wrong.
Cha
(296,844 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)making your latest argument invalid too. Logic is not something I invented, btw.
Cha
(296,844 posts)Live and Learn
(12,769 posts)based upon some flawed logic , you think a higher thread count makes your argument valid. Just a guess, on my part but I think it is a good one.
However, based upon our previous discourse, I think I can logically ascertain that you are not interested in presenting valid arguments and in all probability (which I expect will be shortly proven) simply wish to have the last word so I shall let this be my last response on this thread.
Have a great day/night (whichever the case may be).
Cha
(296,844 posts)lumpy
(13,704 posts)joshcryer
(62,265 posts)Greenwald is the single person pushing this personality meme as opposed to anything else. Dropping names as opposed to dropping secrets. We've seen maybe 1% of the files. What else is in those files? It's important to know.
Release the files Greenwald.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)Greenwald has released more than any of all those combined.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)I didn't know the NYT had them and I know for a fact that The Guardian was forced to dispose of them under lock and key (though there is the possibility that a third party made a copy of The Guardian files it's not clear).
BTW, even Greenwald agrees this is legitimate criticism, as I hold the same, if not a bit stronger position, as Wikileaks. More disclosure.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)joshcryer
(62,265 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)advocating such.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)lumpy
(13,704 posts)ancianita
(35,932 posts)from the Guardian, Greenwald and Snowden. That's what Snowden and Greenwald say.
Any docs the NYT claims is original has been vetted and handed to them by the NSA per decades of agreement.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)There is no such thing as originals. What everyone has are copies of NSA docs that Snowden copied. It is true that the NY Times was definitely NOT Snowden's preferred venue, but once the Guardian retained their own set of of copied docs (and, they do not have the full set. Only Greenwald and Poitras do), they, apparently, felt free to do whatever they wanted with them.
ancianita
(35,932 posts)Of course everyone got copies from Snowden. But we'll see about how much got leaked to the NYT. Not all of it, I'll bet, since the NYT follows intel agency protocol about 'clearing' articles with them before publication.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)lumpy
(13,704 posts)Org, documents that might be damaging to US national security. That is probably why we haven't seen more. These documents have been passed around to some news agencies and it is worrisome that they could fall into the hands of our enemies whether inadvertently or deliberately. No wonder the government is coming down hard on Snowdon.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)joshcryer
(62,265 posts)Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)joshcryer
(62,265 posts)He got so angry he couldn't even formulate his weak argument (as if we'd ever know if any secret damage occurred for 50+ years, even Bill caught on to that nonsense and shut it down with the Flip a District segue).
ancianita
(35,932 posts)or at the least distort such an easily verifiable fact?
grasswire
(50,130 posts)They cheered Greenwald repeatedly. Bill probably shut it down because Greenwald was wildly more applauded even than Maher himself.
joshcryer
(62,265 posts)Doesn't make the argument sound. Sound bytes work but lack substance
Cali_Democrat
(30,439 posts)I've seen nearly every episode. They usually discuss politics in a calm and respectful manner and of course there are some exceptions, but never have I seen so much anger spewed forth by a guest. It just oozes from him and it's really unusual to see that on a fun show like Bill Maher's.
Luminous Animal
(27,310 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)ancianita
(35,932 posts)msanthrope
(37,549 posts)reasoned debater would avoid.
Greenwald acquitted himself poorly in that exchange, although his fans will undoubtedly appreciate his performance.
I await the day when it is not all about Snowald.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)the ratio of your opinion to that of the audience.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)what a studio audience thinks.
You could add this to your posts if you think it would liven them up.....
http://m.
ancianita
(35,932 posts)Maher's HBO show isn't about debate. Those rules are not fairly applied to anything that Greenwald said.
I doubt that Greenwald has "fans" as much as he has supporters and readers.
We who get the issues are only reacting to those trying to make the messengers the issue by appropriately defending his intent and his job, not his youth, past politics, personality or anything else that seems fair game.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)joshcryer
(62,265 posts)"interesting division on the right"
No, Greenwald, that's the "Libertarian Right" who would replace government troops with private contractors. $140 billion. 160,000 contractors. More so than military deployed at the tip of the surge.
randome
(34,845 posts)I hear the grand finale fireworks from Brazil will be spectacular this year!
[hr][font color="blue"][center]Birds are territorial creatures.
The lyrics to the songbird's melodious trill go something like this:
"Stay out of my territory or I'll PECK YOUR GODDAMNED EYES OUT!"[/center][/font][hr]
MrScorpio
(73,630 posts)I wasn't concerned about content, just format. What they were arguing about was less of a concern to me than how they were doing it. It looked to me as if Greenwald's anger came straight out of left field in order to throw a percieved challenger for a loop. No clarification, no elaboration, just straight confrontation.
I wonder if he ever apologizes whenever he says something wrongfully hurtful to someone else. No one is ever right all of the time That's what I meant about being right, even when he's wrong.
I get the feeling that he can never admit he's wrong. If everyone thinks he's right, no problem. I figure that one way to figure him out is to see what's he's like on a long trip together or to see how he deals with service workers.
Going straight to anger when detecting a challenge could be a sign of anger issues, it could also be a deliberate tactic to throw an opponent off guard. But if someone does that, they have to be perfectly cogent in their own message and perfectly clean on what they think is challenging them, otherwise it becomes a huge mess fairly quickly.
As an introvert myself, I've spent a lifetime avoiding confrontational personalities like that. Dealing with them is a huge problem for me, as they quickly drain the life out of a room. I call them Spiritual Vampires. I've got another introverted friend, whose opinions I trust implicitly. They know what I'm talking about, so I should get a second opinion.
Cha
(296,844 posts)don't care what the fans of GG have to say about it.
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)"I figure that one way to figure him out is to see what's he's like on a long trip together or to see how he deals with service workers."
You do realize you are proving his point with that, right?
treestar
(82,383 posts)They will start getting absurd rather than backtrack and admit they didn't have logic behind one of their statements earlier. They then come up with more and more twisted "logic" so as to keep on the same track.
randome
(34,845 posts)[hr][font color="blue"][center]There is nothing you can't do if you put your mind to it.
Nothing.[/center][/font][hr]
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Simply start an OP like 'I don't like the way Greenwald ties his shoes' and watch the foaming haters come a runnin...
MrScorpio
(73,630 posts)It goes a little deeper than my initial impression about that exchange
lumpy
(13,704 posts)KittyWampus
(55,894 posts)Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Last edited Mon Jun 23, 2014, 12:36 AM - Edit history (1)
Actually, in numerous interviews he has calmly and reasonably explained his approach to public discourse.
I think he is quite sedate considering the ad Hominem tactics, like drug war language, that get tossed at him: "He's an addict," his partner is a "drug mule..."
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)I give as good as I get, and it would go a long way towards getting some resolution towards the unanswered questions I've had for the past year...
UTUSN
(70,645 posts)and there was some kind of kerfuffle he was involved in, not knowing ANYTHING about him or who he was, and I came down on the "wrong" side of him, and I was totally lambasted here, fried, flamed and burned, especially by a DUer who will be nameless. It was the homophobic tag. I didn't even know he was Gay or that that was supposed to be a pass for everything he would ever utter. I told the DUer I refused to be bullied over opinions that had nothing to do with Gay. I think that DUer put me on Ignore.
hfojvt
(37,573 posts)who are happy to be wrong all of the time.
2 + 2? 8
The capital of South Dakota? Aberdeen
The atomic number of carbon? 19
Avogadro's number? 2.718281828459
Ask me anything. I love being wrong!
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Kind of funny, really. He's an argument addict?
"If he think he's being challenged, he's really quick on the draw with a retaliation." Imagine that.
ancianita
(35,932 posts)intent of those who presume the expertise to challenge you.
People who are trying to "sort things out" together discuss. Those who've got more than most already sorted out don't "discuss" with others as much as they will explain or argue.
Cha
(296,844 posts)Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)"I figure that one way to figure him out is to see what's he's like on a long trip together or to see how he deals with service workers. "
Let's ask him if he has stopped beating his wife yet.
AgingAmerican
(12,958 posts)It's just a bunch of drama amongst his detractors. They endlessly try to pick apart every iota of his being looking for perceived flaws.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)He's a fucking clown.
And his defenders are comedy gold.
Sid
B Calm
(28,762 posts)elias49
(4,259 posts)Don't let it bother you. It's in your head. It's NOT REAL!
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Hissyspit
(45,788 posts)Coming up with "Greenwald is an argument addict" as a new personal attack is pretty amusing.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)DUers, and anyone who jumps into online or face to face political conversations.