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SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
Mon Jul 7, 2014, 10:20 PM Jul 2014

Homeopathy was quackery in 1796, it was quackery in 1988, and it will still be quackery in 2096

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/07/03/homeopathy-was-quackery-in-1796-it-was-quackery-in-1988-and-it-will-still-be-quackery-in-2096/

This is a post about homeopathic quackery. But I repeat myself.

Those of you who’ve been readers here for a while have no doubt encountered Dana Ullman. He’s been popping up from time to time as a topic of this blog for many years now, almost to the very beginning, when he began spewing the most unbelievably silly and pseudoscientific defenses of homeopathy. Darwin had his bulldog in the form of a man named Thomas Huxley. Unfortunately, Samuel Hahnemann, the founder of homeopathy, has his very own pit bull 200 years later in the form of Dana Ullman. That is not a compliment, nor is it meant to imply that there’s any equivalence whatsoever between Thomas Huxley and Dana Ullman other than that Ullman is quite the tenacious defender of someone else’s work. Of course, he’s devoted his life to defending quackery, where Huxley defended science.

When last we left Mr. Ullman, he was defending yet another attempt to make homeopathy sound scientific by adding the word “DNA” to it and calling it “homeovitality.” Previous to that, we’ve seen Ullman make a fool of himself advocating “respecting the body’s intelligence,homeopathy to treat radiation poisoning (in the wake of Fukushima, naturally), not to mention for the idea that homeopathy is actually real medicine. Meanwhile, he claims there is a “disinformation campaign” against homeopathy run by skeptics, particularly James Randi, who, I’m sure, would be flattered that homeopaths view him as such a force against them. Personally, I like to think of it as an “information campaign,” because that’s what it is.

Homeopathy, of course, rests on two principles. First, there is the idea that “like cures like,” which states that to relieve a symptom you should use a substance that causes the symptom in healthy people. The second idea behind homeopathy is that dilution makes the remedy stronger. Well, actually, serial dilution—but only with vigorous shaking between each dilution step, referred to as “succussion.” Absent succussion between each dilution step, the homeopathic remedy will never be “potentized.” In any case, a typical dilution is 30C, which means 30 serial 100-fold dilutions, which, when you figure it out, comes to a final dilution of 1 in 10^60. Avogadro’s number, of course, is on the order of 10^23, meaning that it’s incredibly unlikely that even a single molecule of the original remedy is left behind, absent, of course, carryover contamination from the serial dilutions. Homeopathy, by many well-established laws of physics and chemistry, is impossible, and there is no convincing evidence, when viewed critically, that homeopathy produces effects greater than placebo.

Of course, if there’s one characteristic of the crank, it’s what I like to call the “I’ll show you!” phenomenon, or, as I’ve sometimes called it, the “vindication of all kooks” principle. Basically, it’s the delusion from which nearly all cranks suffer besides their other delusions, that one day their quackery or pseudoscience will be vindicated. On that day, their enemies will be forced to admit that they were right all along and abase themselves in embarrassment and atonement. On that day, the crankery, whatever it is, becomes mainstream science that everyone appreciates. We see this delusion in antivaccinationists. We see it in Burzynski supporters.


Orac is awesome.

Edit: Link to the HuffPoo article that set Orac off -
Homeopathy and the Future of Medicine: A Report from the Future

Sid
64 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Homeopathy was quackery in 1796, it was quackery in 1988, and it will still be quackery in 2096 (Original Post) SidDithers Jul 2014 OP
TRUTH! MohRokTah Jul 2014 #1
Yes. bravenak Jul 2014 #2
Yup. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jul 2014 #52
"...their enemies will be forced to admit that they were right all along" xfundy Jul 2014 #3
But in 2122 its true and genuine benefits will be discovered. Throd Jul 2014 #4
Bookmarking for later n/t Throd Jul 2014 #5
You forgot the sarcasm thingie. progressoid Jul 2014 #8
Just as the Mayans predicted. nt ZombieHorde Jul 2014 #9
Homeopathy, chiropractic, acupuncture, etc... Archae Jul 2014 #6
kick!!! nt msanthrope Jul 2014 #7
Oh please, Xemu will be back in 2090 Rex Jul 2014 #10
Thank God for antibiotics and all the they science it brings. Keeps doctors, hospitals and more mackerel Jul 2014 #11
I haven't taken an antibiotic in years cali Jul 2014 #12
Despite your knee jerk dislike of Pharmacology MattBaggins Jul 2014 #50
Bollocks! Big Pharma buried all the real cures. conservaphobe Jul 2014 #13
And yet, some people find it effective. DesertDiamond Jul 2014 #14
that doesn't mean that there is ANY science that corroborates that cali Jul 2014 #15
Probably just as effective as any placebo... Orsino Jul 2014 #43
My daughters really really really truly believed that there was a monster in their closet MattBaggins Jul 2014 #51
Not for the reasons homeopathy claims though NuclearDem Jul 2014 #64
I guess some here have to go after everything. I'll stick with homeopathy it's less invasive, mackerel Jul 2014 #16
Why don't you use your homeopathy for emergencies? Sissyk Jul 2014 #19
Excessive bleeding HockeyMom Jul 2014 #35
That's not homeopathy... SidDithers Jul 2014 #36
With examples like biting down on teabags, I have to wonder if the "home" part... Silent3 Jul 2014 #41
I think it is the tannin in the tea, not the caffeine as caffeine is not a coagulant of blood. uppityperson Jul 2014 #44
White Vinegar for Bug Bites HockeyMom Jul 2014 #30
Home remedies are not the same thing as homeopathy. alarimer Jul 2014 #33
I'm with you! Apple cider vinegar is amazing. mackerel Jul 2014 #46
Why are you talking about home remedies whent he rest of us are discussing homeopathy MattBaggins Jul 2014 #54
I agree ann--- Jul 2014 #62
"Homeopathy" refers to specific type of nonsense, not home remedies in general Orangepeel Jul 2014 #34
How exactly do you know more that a Doctor about the meds they prescribe? MattBaggins Jul 2014 #53
I guess it's here to stay, then. bluedigger Jul 2014 #17
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Jul 2014 #18
lol! Sissyk Jul 2014 #20
Right. Probably thinks that "cosmic" forces like the Moon have an 'influence' on water as well BlummberBee Jul 2014 #25
Hey, know any good Reiki Masters?...nt SidDithers Jul 2014 #26
*** Warren DeMontague Jul 2014 #39
Wait; this is sarcasm, right? Because....tides.... WinkyDink Jul 2014 #31
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Jul 2014 #38
No. just a specific reply to a specific comment on effects on water. I don't even know what WinkyDink Jul 2014 #47
You mean ocean tides? edhopper Jul 2014 #48
This message was self-deleted by its author Warren DeMontague Jul 2014 #63
Not since we bombed her, yo. Warren DeMontague Jul 2014 #37
Homeopathy - Shit and Sugar... SidDithers Jul 2014 #27
How has this "science" ever been covered by insurance? gvstn Jul 2014 #21
Insurance companies have been covering this shit for a long time MattBaggins Jul 2014 #58
Remember that in the 19th century, a lot of medically sanctioned "cures" could kill you eridani Jul 2014 #22
We get our water from the Detroit River etherealtruth Jul 2014 #23
I hear ya... SidDithers Jul 2014 #28
It's right up there with phrenology. hobbit709 Jul 2014 #24
Yeah, but I'm betting that it will be totally vindicated in 2097 Orrex Jul 2014 #29
Just you wait!!...nt SidDithers Jul 2014 #32
Yeah, but is it affordable? JEB Jul 2014 #40
But if you dilute that quack down a million times it suddenly becomes medicine Johonny Jul 2014 #42
The “like cures like” always puzzled me. They claim it creates an immune response to solve disease. freshwest Jul 2014 #45
Chemo works. edhopper Jul 2014 #49
How much is Lilly paying you? NuclearDem Jul 2014 #55
And now for something completely different... Crazy Homeopathy Lady MattBaggins Jul 2014 #56
if it worked they would call it medicine. BootinUp Jul 2014 #57
Minchin is awesome... SidDithers Jul 2014 #60
Homeopathy? I am "Off That" BootinUp Jul 2014 #59
(woo) Iggo Jul 2014 #61

Erich Bloodaxe BSN

(14,733 posts)
52. Yup.
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 09:38 AM
Jul 2014

I've got to say, I can't fathom why even one person would believe that if you dilute something into essential nonexistence, it's going to have much of an effect on anything. Surely the guy who came up with that 'principle' was a total scam artist or insane, but how on earth do you get any large number of people to take it seriously?

xfundy

(5,105 posts)
3. "...their enemies will be forced to admit that they were right all along"
Mon Jul 7, 2014, 10:31 PM
Jul 2014

Otherwise known as "the rapture." Nothing pays better than the religion/belief industry.

If I thought I'd be able to sleep at night, I'd become a TV preacher and suck up all that money the sick and desperate are willing to throw out for nonsense.

Throd

(7,208 posts)
4. But in 2122 its true and genuine benefits will be discovered.
Mon Jul 7, 2014, 10:34 PM
Jul 2014

And you sir, will look like quite the ass.

Archae

(46,301 posts)
6. Homeopathy, chiropractic, acupuncture, etc...
Mon Jul 7, 2014, 10:40 PM
Jul 2014

Every time actual *GASP* SCIENCE is used to test woo, woo fails.
And testimonials are worthless.

"I went to the chiropractor, he tied me up in knots and now I feel wonderful!"
Yeah right.

More and more chiropractors are wanting to do their schtick on babies.
Babies? Yup, they call it "Family Chiropractic."

A good source for exposing the quacks and kooks is here:

http://americanloons.blogspot.ca/

Another good site is here:

http://www.skepdic.com/

But what the heck.
Hysterics against GMO's, anti-vaccinations, pro-taking enough vitamin supplements to choke a horse, snake oil sales scammers will always be with us.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
10. Oh please, Xemu will be back in 2090
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 12:10 AM
Jul 2014

and homeopathy will be the only thing that could have saved mankind! L. Ron probably said so!

mackerel

(4,412 posts)
11. Thank God for antibiotics and all the they science it brings. Keeps doctors, hospitals and more
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 12:32 AM
Jul 2014

importantly Pharma in business.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
12. I haven't taken an antibiotic in years
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 12:53 AM
Jul 2014

My son however, recently had a badly infected ingrown toenail and antibiotics were the ONLY sensible treatment. yes, antibiotics are overprescribed. they are also lifesavers. Homeopathy? Uh, no.

 

cali

(114,904 posts)
15. that doesn't mean that there is ANY science that corroborates that
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 01:16 AM
Jul 2014

there is not. some people find mumbling incantations while walking backward effective.

 

NuclearDem

(16,184 posts)
64. Not for the reasons homeopathy claims though
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 02:06 PM
Jul 2014

The placebo effect is largely what causes improvements that can be attributed to homeopathy.

mackerel

(4,412 posts)
16. I guess some here have to go after everything. I'll stick with homeopathy it's less invasive,
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 01:49 AM
Jul 2014

it works for me and my family and most importantly I don't have to deal with some arrogant doctor who actually knows very little about the meds he doles out.

I'll do what I've done for the past 17 years, use a doctor for emergencies.

Sissyk

(12,665 posts)
19. Why don't you use your homeopathy for emergencies?
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 02:23 AM
Jul 2014

I mean, if doctor's are all arrogant and all, and don't know their meds, why go to them in an emergency? Aren't you worried?

Surely they've come out with an emergency homeopathic remedy if it works and all, right?

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
35. Excessive bleeding
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 08:45 AM
Jul 2014

Ever have a say a tooth pulled and it doesn't stop bleeding despite biting down on gauze (compression). Dampen a tea bag and bite down on that. The caffeine in the tea works to coagulate blood. They say you can use it also for a bad cut. Not only did my Granny use tea bags, even Dentists years ago used to tell you that one. No actual SCIENCE behind these homeopathic treatments?????

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
36. That's not homeopathy...
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 08:48 AM
Jul 2014


Why is it that the loudest defenders of homeopathy don't actually know what homeopathy is?

Sid

Silent3

(15,148 posts)
41. With examples like biting down on teabags, I have to wonder if the "home" part...
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 01:17 PM
Jul 2014

...of "homeopathy" has some people confused into thinking "homeopathy" = "home remedies".

indeed.

Edit: I see going further down the thread I wasn't the first to wonder about this.

uppityperson

(115,677 posts)
44. I think it is the tannin in the tea, not the caffeine as caffeine is not a coagulant of blood.
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 04:53 PM
Jul 2014

Hence you can use decaf tea bag and it will work also.

Also, this is a Home treatment, not homeopathy.

 

HockeyMom

(14,337 posts)
30. White Vinegar for Bug Bites
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 08:22 AM
Jul 2014

That treatment has been passed down in my family for over a 100 years. Run to see a doctor? Run to the drug store for some OTC treatment? White vinegar on a bug bite takes away the itch, reduces the swelling, and probably disinfects it too.

When my kids had chicken pox in 1991 (before the vax was widely used), their pediatrician recommend they take OATMEAL(Aveno) baths. Oh, my, what a quack doctor for using a natural remedy like oatmeal. This doctor knew of the vax before my kids got chicken pox, but he said it was too new and he would not recommend it at that point in time. Oh, horror. He wasn't some old man who didn't trust new fangled medicine. He was in his mid 30s back then.

I agree. Unless it is an EXTREME emergency, I will use the home remedies that I learned from my Granny because they have been family tested for over a 100 years, and they WORK.

alarimer

(16,245 posts)
33. Home remedies are not the same thing as homeopathy.
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 08:40 AM
Jul 2014

Homeopathic "remedies" are essentially water or sugar pills, with next to no actual active ingredient. They are a ripoff and waste of time at best.

 

ann---

(1,933 posts)
62. I agree
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 11:39 AM
Jul 2014

Doctors are there to set broken bones, to stop bleeding, for example. But, for every day problems, there's nothing like natural medicine. Most doctors are pill pushers. You walk in with a complaint and they hand you a prescription for a pill, like it's a cure, when all it does is suppress the symptoms instead of DEALING with them.

I'll take natureopathy over chemical solutions any time.

Have you noticed all the ads on TV from lawyers about these fairly new "medications," birth control methods and joint replacement parts that have proven to do more harm than good? No thanks - I'll not put poison into my system. I'll check with mother nature first.

Orangepeel

(13,933 posts)
34. "Homeopathy" refers to specific type of nonsense, not home remedies in general
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 08:41 AM
Jul 2014

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy

Homeopathy i/ˌhoʊmiˈɒpə?i/ (also spelled homoeopathy or homœopathy; from the Greek ὅ????? hómoios "like-" and ?ά??? páthos "suffering&quot is a system of alternative medicine created in 1796 by Samuel Hahnemann, based on his doctrine of like cures like, according to which a substance that causes the symptoms of a disease in healthy people will cure similar symptoms in sick people.[1] Homeopathy is considered a pseudoscience,[2][3][4] and its remedies have been found to be no more effective than placebos.[5][6][7]

Hahnemann believed the underlying causes of disease were phenomena that he termed miasms, and that homeopathic remedies addressed these. The remedies are prepared by repeatedly diluting a chosen substance in alcohol or distilled water, followed by forceful striking on an elastic body.[8] Dilution usually continues well past the point where no molecules of the original substance remain.[9] Homeopaths select remedies by consulting reference books known as repertories, and by considering the totality of the patient's symptoms, personal traits, physical and psychological state, and life history.[10]

MattBaggins

(7,897 posts)
53. How exactly do you know more that a Doctor about the meds they prescribe?
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 09:39 AM
Jul 2014

Is it from reading Merocla's shit?

bluedigger

(17,086 posts)
17. I guess it's here to stay, then.
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 02:06 AM
Jul 2014

My ex had a very fancy little chest of drawers for homeopathy remedies. I never really asked her about it. Some things you just have to let go...

Response to SidDithers (Original post)

Response to WinkyDink (Reply #31)

 

WinkyDink

(51,311 posts)
47. No. just a specific reply to a specific comment on effects on water. I don't even know what
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 09:01 AM
Jul 2014

"homeopathy" IS, so I doubt if I'm defending it.

I like my Urgent Care centers, personally.

But the Moon still affects our tides. DERP!

edhopper

(33,483 posts)
48. You mean ocean tides?
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 09:14 AM
Jul 2014

Or are you referring to the water in out bodies?

I ask because I don't know what the tides have to do with homeopathy or medicine.

Response to WinkyDink (Reply #47)

gvstn

(2,805 posts)
21. How has this "science" ever been covered by insurance?
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 02:29 AM
Jul 2014

I know my sister went to someone who practiced homeopathy and it was covered by her insurance, is this general practice? I'm curious if I have the details wrong or if homeopathy is somehow covered in some health insurance policies.

MattBaggins

(7,897 posts)
58. Insurance companies have been covering this shit for a long time
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 09:58 AM
Jul 2014

and it has nothing to do with it working or not.

If you are willing to buy a 20 dollar bottle of water to cure a vague sense of unease and not see a real doctor, well the insurance company is happy to pay for your sugar and water.

Saves them lots of money. They don't care in the slightest.

eridani

(51,907 posts)
22. Remember that in the 19th century, a lot of medically sanctioned "cures" could kill you
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 05:10 AM
Jul 2014

That's why homeopathy took off--the treaments had no effects, and that included negative ones. A definite plus in the age of bleeding and mercury treatments.

etherealtruth

(22,165 posts)
23. We get our water from the Detroit River
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 06:24 AM
Jul 2014

I have to assume that "everything" is in the water (appropriately diluted, of course) ... that's why no one ever gets sick in Metro Detroit.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
45. The “like cures like” always puzzled me. They claim it creates an immune response to solve disease.
Tue Jul 8, 2014, 10:30 PM
Jul 2014

They claim that is what conventional medicine does, like Chemo, but I can't see the similarity.

It seems unwise to burden a body that is stressed already. Chemo is a hard thing to go through, I've known some who did not survive.

What is different between “like cures like” and chemo, which destroys the immune system as it kills the cancer?

Appreciate hearing the medical POV.

edhopper

(33,483 posts)
49. Chemo works.
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 09:22 AM
Jul 2014

Not all the time and eventually they will find better treatments. There are may times when there is nothing else they can do and we get into a place where you either pick a 50% or 25% chance with chemo, and all it's bad effects, or choose to do nothing and die. It isn't a straight medical decision.
But chemo is effective at times, homeopathy is never effective.

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/09/16/two-percent-gambit-chemotherapy/

MattBaggins

(7,897 posts)
56. And now for something completely different... Crazy Homeopathy Lady
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 09:45 AM
Jul 2014


How can people this stupid actually become doctors?

BootinUp

(47,085 posts)
57. if it worked they would call it medicine.
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 09:55 AM
Jul 2014

Borrowed line from this very excellent performance by Tim Minchin

SidDithers

(44,228 posts)
60. Minchin is awesome...
Wed Jul 9, 2014, 10:11 AM
Jul 2014

I'm trying to get tickets to see him when he comes to Toronto in September.



Sid

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