General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHomeopathy was quackery in 1796, it was quackery in 1988, and it will still be quackery in 2096
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2014/07/03/homeopathy-was-quackery-in-1796-it-was-quackery-in-1988-and-it-will-still-be-quackery-in-2096/Those of you whove been readers here for a while have no doubt encountered Dana Ullman. Hes been popping up from time to time as a topic of this blog for many years now, almost to the very beginning, when he began spewing the most unbelievably silly and pseudoscientific defenses of homeopathy. Darwin had his bulldog in the form of a man named Thomas Huxley. Unfortunately, Samuel Hahnemann, the founder of homeopathy, has his very own pit bull 200 years later in the form of Dana Ullman. That is not a compliment, nor is it meant to imply that theres any equivalence whatsoever between Thomas Huxley and Dana Ullman other than that Ullman is quite the tenacious defender of someone elses work. Of course, hes devoted his life to defending quackery, where Huxley defended science.
When last we left Mr. Ullman, he was defending yet another attempt to make homeopathy sound scientific by adding the word DNA to it and calling it homeovitality. Previous to that, weve seen Ullman make a fool of himself advocating respecting the bodys intelligence, homeopathy to treat radiation poisoning (in the wake of Fukushima, naturally), not to mention for the idea that homeopathy is actually real medicine. Meanwhile, he claims there is a disinformation campaign against homeopathy run by skeptics, particularly James Randi, who, Im sure, would be flattered that homeopaths view him as such a force against them. Personally, I like to think of it as an information campaign, because thats what it is.
Homeopathy, of course, rests on two principles. First, there is the idea that like cures like, which states that to relieve a symptom you should use a substance that causes the symptom in healthy people. The second idea behind homeopathy is that dilution makes the remedy stronger. Well, actually, serial dilutionbut only with vigorous shaking between each dilution step, referred to as succussion. Absent succussion between each dilution step, the homeopathic remedy will never be potentized. In any case, a typical dilution is 30C, which means 30 serial 100-fold dilutions, which, when you figure it out, comes to a final dilution of 1 in 10^60. Avogadros number, of course, is on the order of 10^23, meaning that its incredibly unlikely that even a single molecule of the original remedy is left behind, absent, of course, carryover contamination from the serial dilutions. Homeopathy, by many well-established laws of physics and chemistry, is impossible, and there is no convincing evidence, when viewed critically, that homeopathy produces effects greater than placebo.
Of course, if theres one characteristic of the crank, its what I like to call the Ill show you! phenomenon, or, as Ive sometimes called it, the vindication of all kooks principle. Basically, its the delusion from which nearly all cranks suffer besides their other delusions, that one day their quackery or pseudoscience will be vindicated. On that day, their enemies will be forced to admit that they were right all along and abase themselves in embarrassment and atonement. On that day, the crankery, whatever it is, becomes mainstream science that everyone appreciates. We see this delusion in antivaccinationists. We see it in Burzynski supporters.
Orac is awesome.
Edit: Link to the HuffPoo article that set Orac off -
Homeopathy and the Future of Medicine: A Report from the Future
Sid
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)bravenak
(34,648 posts)What a strange concept it is.
Erich Bloodaxe BSN
(14,733 posts)I've got to say, I can't fathom why even one person would believe that if you dilute something into essential nonexistence, it's going to have much of an effect on anything. Surely the guy who came up with that 'principle' was a total scam artist or insane, but how on earth do you get any large number of people to take it seriously?
xfundy
(5,105 posts)Otherwise known as "the rapture." Nothing pays better than the religion/belief industry.
If I thought I'd be able to sleep at night, I'd become a TV preacher and suck up all that money the sick and desperate are willing to throw out for nonsense.
Throd
(7,208 posts)And you sir, will look like quite the ass.
Throd
(7,208 posts)progressoid
(49,951 posts)ZombieHorde
(29,047 posts)Archae
(46,301 posts)Every time actual *GASP* SCIENCE is used to test woo, woo fails.
And testimonials are worthless.
"I went to the chiropractor, he tied me up in knots and now I feel wonderful!"
Yeah right.
More and more chiropractors are wanting to do their schtick on babies.
Babies? Yup, they call it "Family Chiropractic."
A good source for exposing the quacks and kooks is here:
http://americanloons.blogspot.ca/
Another good site is here:
http://www.skepdic.com/
But what the heck.
Hysterics against GMO's, anti-vaccinations, pro-taking enough vitamin supplements to choke a horse, snake oil sales scammers will always be with us.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)Rex
(65,616 posts)and homeopathy will be the only thing that could have saved mankind! L. Ron probably said so!
mackerel
(4,412 posts)importantly Pharma in business.
cali
(114,904 posts)My son however, recently had a badly infected ingrown toenail and antibiotics were the ONLY sensible treatment. yes, antibiotics are overprescribed. they are also lifesavers. Homeopathy? Uh, no.
MattBaggins
(7,897 posts)1+1 does not, and will not ever, equal 3
conservaphobe
(1,284 posts)DesertDiamond
(1,616 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)there is not. some people find mumbling incantations while walking backward effective.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)...or as effective as water, which it is.
MattBaggins
(7,897 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)The placebo effect is largely what causes improvements that can be attributed to homeopathy.
mackerel
(4,412 posts)it works for me and my family and most importantly I don't have to deal with some arrogant doctor who actually knows very little about the meds he doles out.
I'll do what I've done for the past 17 years, use a doctor for emergencies.
Sissyk
(12,665 posts)I mean, if doctor's are all arrogant and all, and don't know their meds, why go to them in an emergency? Aren't you worried?
Surely they've come out with an emergency homeopathic remedy if it works and all, right?
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)Ever have a say a tooth pulled and it doesn't stop bleeding despite biting down on gauze (compression). Dampen a tea bag and bite down on that. The caffeine in the tea works to coagulate blood. They say you can use it also for a bad cut. Not only did my Granny use tea bags, even Dentists years ago used to tell you that one. No actual SCIENCE behind these homeopathic treatments?????
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Why is it that the loudest defenders of homeopathy don't actually know what homeopathy is?
Sid
Silent3
(15,148 posts)...of "homeopathy" has some people confused into thinking "homeopathy" = "home remedies".
indeed.
Edit: I see going further down the thread I wasn't the first to wonder about this.
uppityperson
(115,677 posts)Hence you can use decaf tea bag and it will work also.
Also, this is a Home treatment, not homeopathy.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)That treatment has been passed down in my family for over a 100 years. Run to see a doctor? Run to the drug store for some OTC treatment? White vinegar on a bug bite takes away the itch, reduces the swelling, and probably disinfects it too.
When my kids had chicken pox in 1991 (before the vax was widely used), their pediatrician recommend they take OATMEAL(Aveno) baths. Oh, my, what a quack doctor for using a natural remedy like oatmeal. This doctor knew of the vax before my kids got chicken pox, but he said it was too new and he would not recommend it at that point in time. Oh, horror. He wasn't some old man who didn't trust new fangled medicine. He was in his mid 30s back then.
I agree. Unless it is an EXTREME emergency, I will use the home remedies that I learned from my Granny because they have been family tested for over a 100 years, and they WORK.
alarimer
(16,245 posts)Homeopathic "remedies" are essentially water or sugar pills, with next to no actual active ingredient. They are a ripoff and waste of time at best.
mackerel
(4,412 posts)MattBaggins
(7,897 posts)Doctors are there to set broken bones, to stop bleeding, for example. But, for every day problems, there's nothing like natural medicine. Most doctors are pill pushers. You walk in with a complaint and they hand you a prescription for a pill, like it's a cure, when all it does is suppress the symptoms instead of DEALING with them.
I'll take natureopathy over chemical solutions any time.
Have you noticed all the ads on TV from lawyers about these fairly new "medications," birth control methods and joint replacement parts that have proven to do more harm than good? No thanks - I'll not put poison into my system. I'll check with mother nature first.
Orangepeel
(13,933 posts)http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeopathy
Homeopathy i/ˌhoʊmiˈɒpə?i/ (also spelled homoeopathy or homopathy; from the Greek ὅ????? hómoios "like-" and ?ά??? páthos "suffering" is a system of alternative medicine created in 1796 by Samuel Hahnemann, based on his doctrine of like cures like, according to which a substance that causes the symptoms of a disease in healthy people will cure similar symptoms in sick people.[1] Homeopathy is considered a pseudoscience,[2][3][4] and its remedies have been found to be no more effective than placebos.[5][6][7]
Hahnemann believed the underlying causes of disease were phenomena that he termed miasms, and that homeopathic remedies addressed these. The remedies are prepared by repeatedly diluting a chosen substance in alcohol or distilled water, followed by forceful striking on an elastic body.[8] Dilution usually continues well past the point where no molecules of the original substance remain.[9] Homeopaths select remedies by consulting reference books known as repertories, and by considering the totality of the patient's symptoms, personal traits, physical and psychological state, and life history.[10]
MattBaggins
(7,897 posts)Is it from reading Merocla's shit?
bluedigger
(17,086 posts)My ex had a very fancy little chest of drawers for homeopathy remedies. I never really asked her about it. Some things you just have to let go...
Response to SidDithers (Original post)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Sissyk
(12,665 posts)Cute cartoon.
BlummberBee
(18 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)Response to WinkyDink (Reply #31)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
WinkyDink
(51,311 posts)"homeopathy" IS, so I doubt if I'm defending it.
I like my Urgent Care centers, personally.
But the Moon still affects our tides. DERP!
edhopper
(33,483 posts)Or are you referring to the water in out bodies?
I ask because I don't know what the tides have to do with homeopathy or medicine.
Response to WinkyDink (Reply #47)
Warren DeMontague This message was self-deleted by its author.
Warren DeMontague
(80,708 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
gvstn
(2,805 posts)I know my sister went to someone who practiced homeopathy and it was covered by her insurance, is this general practice? I'm curious if I have the details wrong or if homeopathy is somehow covered in some health insurance policies.
MattBaggins
(7,897 posts)and it has nothing to do with it working or not.
If you are willing to buy a 20 dollar bottle of water to cure a vague sense of unease and not see a real doctor, well the insurance company is happy to pay for your sugar and water.
Saves them lots of money. They don't care in the slightest.
eridani
(51,907 posts)That's why homeopathy took off--the treaments had no effects, and that included negative ones. A definite plus in the age of bleeding and mercury treatments.
etherealtruth
(22,165 posts)I have to assume that "everything" is in the water (appropriately diluted, of course) ... that's why no one ever gets sick in Metro Detroit.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)My family is originally from Windsor.
Sid
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)Orrex
(63,172 posts)You'll see! You'll see!
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
JEB
(4,748 posts)Johonny
(20,818 posts)freshwest
(53,661 posts)They claim that is what conventional medicine does, like Chemo, but I can't see the similarity.
It seems unwise to burden a body that is stressed already. Chemo is a hard thing to go through, I've known some who did not survive.
What is different between like cures like and chemo, which destroys the immune system as it kills the cancer?
Appreciate hearing the medical POV.
edhopper
(33,483 posts)Not all the time and eventually they will find better treatments. There are may times when there is nothing else they can do and we get into a place where you either pick a 50% or 25% chance with chemo, and all it's bad effects, or choose to do nothing and die. It isn't a straight medical decision.
But chemo is effective at times, homeopathy is never effective.
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2011/09/16/two-percent-gambit-chemotherapy/
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)MattBaggins
(7,897 posts)How can people this stupid actually become doctors?
BootinUp
(47,085 posts)Borrowed line from this very excellent performance by Tim Minchin
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)I'm trying to get tickets to see him when he comes to Toronto in September.
Sid