= new reply since forum marked as read
coming up:
$100 - $150.
I don't know. Maybe I should have been on a leash. When I was a kid I would follow anyone who would offer me chocolate or ice cream and I did once. Luckily, the lady who I followed into a nearby store just wanted to buy me a chocolate bar and that was it. But soon as I heard "chocolate", stranger or no stranger, I was one step behind that lady..lol.
Response to uppityperson (Reply #3)
After all, children should be seen and not heard, right?
just in case 
No, I didn't "walk your kid" but let my kid walk with me.
Response to uppityperson (Reply #188)
Response to moriah (Reply #192)
or 7. Ain't I cute? Oh, how times have changed. 
I assume people do what they think best. I don't assume that I know what others need. 
is resources available to parents. Not all parents have family in the area to watch their kids when they need to run errands. Not all families have sufficient income to constantly pay for a babysitter to watch the kids either. It is one thing to have friends help out but that is not really a good resource if used constantly. It does not matter if you are going to a supermarket, Target, or a mall, a lot of parents end up having to take their kids with them. Some places you have the option of putting your child in a cart. Other then that your options are holding a child, hold their hand, use a stroller or use a leash. Most parents are going to pick what works best for them in terms of their child's personality and will best keep the child safe. I worked at a mall several years ago and kids running wild are not only a danger to themselves but to others if they are not supervised. I worked in a department store and was concerned about the risk of a runaway child plowing down elderly customers. One day I had 2 kids running wild with Mom paying no attention to them. I found 2 chairs and told them to sit there until Mom was ready to leave. It got rid of the chaos, kept the children safe and eliminated the risk of harm to any elderly customers.
I would much rather see a situation where parents have control (as best as they can ( ) over their child (children) then a situation where a child (children) can run wild.
for a second leaving the kid the opportunity to escape. Off with that parent's head.
I have yet to hear of anyone complaining that they were abused because a parent used a leash on them while they were young. In fact, the leash allows them more freedom than hand holding does.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2689805/Feed-A-Child-charity-apologise-running-racist-advert-showed-wealthy-white-woman-feeding-black-child-like-dog.html
I'm okay with leashes on small kids but shock collars go a bit to far.
I used to get tied up out on the porch so's I didn't wander off. 
)
Cleo is a Catahoula Leopard, and the greyhound genes which contribute to her breed also allow her to back out of a traditional buckle collar. She also spooked easily when she was a pup, and a few afternoons spent chasing her around the French Quarter convinced me to try something different.
We've been pretty lucky so far - she's only slipped it once or twice when it was too loose, but not in any serious situations. I check it regularly now, and she's so used to it, she doesn't fight it, or me.
He's 45 but he is always wandering off.
He's swell on me too, Trumad.
my 1 year 1 month 1 day younger brother and I were leashed and I turned.... never mind bad example.
Honestly one parent with young kids a leash is the safest and most practical method of ensuring their safety. Todays leash setups are a lot better than they where in the early 60's.
In the early 70's we had one of the most terrifying experiences in our lives. Somehow our toddler managed to get out of our sight and into the street. She could easily have been killed by passing cars.
We lived at that time on a corner with a fenced backyard, and a front yard that could not legally be fenced.
Subsequently to this, we permanently locked the gate to the backyard. But when we would do yard work in the front, she would want to be in the front yard also. We decided the safest and least restrictive option was not a playpen, but a harness.
She loved playing in the front yard on her harness when we were doing yard work. And she grew to be a wonderful and independent adult.
(And by the way, she loved exploring malls at times on her harness, when she would go with her mother and sister.)
Because of ages, circumstances, a different home, and variations in temperment, we never considered a harness for any of her siblings.
Although we initially thought the whole idea of harnessing our toddler to play in the front yard while we did yard work, or at the mall, was rather bizarre to our way of thinking, she loved it, and experienced probably lesser restraint than the alternatives, which fit her personality.
If someone had cut her harness/leash and she would have been required to, 100% of the time, be holding our hand, be in our arms or on our back, or in a stroller or playpen, (during times when she needed some restraint for safety), she would not have been happy about loosing the relative freedom her harness made possible.
A child is unique. And circumstances differ.
and rude comments when I took my son out with his tether…but that thing kept him alive so he could grow up to be the successful, progressive, liberal voting young man he is today. 
When I see kids on a lead. 
Until 18 years later and you discover that you're son/daughter now has a leash/collar fetish.
These things aren't just being used for toddlers, but for older kids.
Even so, their use up in my area connotes a major negativism in the household. They are practically unseen up here.
While they sell toddler ones, with animal packs and so forth, they have these things all the way up in size.
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But, even with a toddler who is 3, they have self-awareness, self-pride and know when they are being made fun of. When they see a bunch of kids in an area, and they are the only ones tethered, they can observe and process the contrast. Sure, they might get used to it, like we all do to situations outside of our control (or at times, in our control) but they still would get tired.
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Now, you need to know what you're doing in the store and what the kid's wherewithal will be. Did they eat? Do they have to go to the bathroom? Are they tired? Are you going to a place where they will be bored (I remember being bored when my mom would take me into women's section of Macy's... a boy in a women's clothing department, ugh.)? How long will you be there, is it a surgical strike or will you be in the store for over 20 minutes? The more boring the location, the higher probability that attentional issues would arise. It comes down to knowing your kid, knowing where you're going, and preparing. If they are behaved, there will be a positive consequence on the outing. That reinforced the compliance as it gave them something to look forward too. It could be the free local park, an inexpensive soft serve, a store they want to see, anything. Save it to the end of the trip. If you do it first, you're hosed. I would let my kids lose to walk and roam in controlled environments. If it wasn't controlled, they would go into the stroller, as saving steps reduces the grumpiness of them later on and will extend your day. Managed properly, you can be out the entire day and early evening without any incidents or fights, because the kids aren't excessively tired from walking.
I had a couple of strollers in the car, a tandem Graco one (with food, few juice packs, toys, blanket, etc.) and a lightweight $15 one that you could whip around. The funny thing is that, if the younger one didn't want the lightweight stroller, the others would try to get a free ride. It never went unused. Since all the kids would share it, until they got too big, the change of a tired kid was greatly diminished. The light one had no storage. But you have to send them in with at least one stuffed toy or action figure, else they would want to drift off to other attractions. If I wasn't pushing it, one of the other kids would take over. They know if they roamed, a consequence would be applied. Everyone stayed within 10 feet of me.
The one trick I've learned is, you never let your kid out of their highchair/portable car seat when at a restaurant. Once you do that, the kid will expect if from then on, and that fight takes a few weeks to reset. This stops the kids from running around the chairs and tables, bothering other diners and the wait staff. They always knew, once in a restaurant, they stayed put. When one of the kids would act up, at first I sit in the vestibule with them until they calmed down, most times it was a sugar imbalance that started it, so they needed to get their first bites in and wait a few minutes. I was in a restaurant with my kids and a single mom was there and her baby was crying and some old couple was staring her down and making rude comments. It was a contemporary but casual pizza place attached to the mall. I walked up to her and told her not to worry, that it's natural and most people are not bothered by it. She was so relieved as her food just came out. The baby stopped crying a few minutes later. People have to eat
Of course, if there is an attraction that they will go to, sometimes you can't fight it and must go along.
And I would think many would agree with many of the points you made (in your reply #128).
But do you really think that the same solution and the same skills are always the best solution for every child, for every family, and in all circumstances?
And what is the justification of concluding that "The use of a leash is a vile, dehumanizing, and completely inexcusable method to manage your children in a congested area.---it seems to be the "easy way out" and many people will narrow their choices to whatever is easiest on them. Just lose the freakin' leash - It's not about you and making your shopping trips easier." (as you stated in #128)?
It does not appear that those who reported to having had a leash or harness as a child felt like they had been treated in a vile or dehumanized manner.
As a parent of 4 wonderful children and 5 grandchildren, it never crossed my mind that a harness or leash would be in any way helpful with any except for my daughter (mentioned in my reply #90). But it seemed to be most helpful with that unique child in those unique circumstances.
You make a good point that people should not jump to unjustified speculations about why someone might be using a stroller (that the reason for use may be different than expected, and the results beneficial for that individual child).
Might not the same be true for some children with regard to the use of a harness/leash?
Is it helpful to attempt to deal with the unique circumstances of every unique child with identical techniques?
Cheers.
In our case, it had to do with the fact that we lived on a street that had intermittent high traffic (There was a ferry about a half mile away, and when the cars got off the ferry, there was a very dangerous situation if a child had managed to wander into an empty street.)
You can imagine our horror when we realized that our daughter had left the back yard through a gate which had been somehow negligently left unlatched, and the fact that she was not killed by the traffic she stopped was an immense blessing we in no way had earned.
We were able to make the backyard safe for play by permanently locking the back/side yard fence.
Yet we frequently worked in the front yard, and she would want to play in the front yard with us and her sister, and the front yard could not be legally fenced. When someone mentioned a harness, we thought that rather bizarre, but it seemed the best solution,and she loved playing in the front yard on her harness when we gardened. (I have no recollection of disapproving stares, but that was the relatively tolerant 70's).
(This was a delightful, spontaneous, & exploring child, who, several years later, when no longer using a harness, once slipped under a fence at a petting zoo, getting into an adjacent area next to monkey cages, whereupon a large monkey, reaching through the bars, grabbed her by her pony tail and held her pinned against the bars of the cage . . . Perhaps a leash would have been helpful then...)
I have to do that with our Bichon ALL THE TIME!
Of course he only goes on a lead when it's raining and the back yard is muddy so maybe needs more leash time?
...as related in reply 203.
Sometimes a safety belt, so to speak, may be protective during the time a parent is instilling the "simple corrective behaviorial techniques" you so advise, and developing the maturity to safely navigate their particular environment.
In our case, safety measures including a limited time of using a harness/leash, even though, like trumad, we initially viewed a harness/leash as somewhat silly and for dogs. (and even though my personal prejudice somewhat favors free-range, even for dogs.)
And during that time, our daughter's joyful behavior appeared in no way "de-humanized" (by the way, she never appeared "de-humanized" when strapped into a car seat, etc, either).
I think what bothers a lot of people is a tendency to be judgmental of others, based on stereotypes, presumptive speculation, and incomplete knowledge of others.
If a harness/leash is intrinsically "de-humanizing" regardless of the circumstances of use, why then are not seat belts, car seats, and stroller straps?
Is there no room for nuance, for tolerance, and for the recognition that others may have different circumstances than one's own, and that if others find it best to make decisions that are not identical to one's own, that it may not be best to judge their decisions as "vile, dehumanizing and inexcusable" based on speculation?
Cheers.
...the kids who were runners didn't survive to reproduce.
... to a poster who seems to have a special need to be right and has a one-size-fits-all solution. 
And let's not even get into the cage beds. What are they called? Oh yeah, cribs. And gawd forbid anyone use those little playpen jail thingies.
In fact, 99% of parents deserve to be locked away for life for the abuse they have been subjecting their progeny too. It is a wonder any of survived.
they could learn how to better deal with this problem and the poor children would have such a better life.
This thread is about children in leashes at the mall, it's not a toddler wearing leashes chain.
Your
was directed at the humility I had referred to. Mocking it as toddlers being insulted, though a toddler knows when you are mocking them, so they do have a form of humility that they sense.
But you now discount it for only being for toddlers, when there are more than just toddlers being leashed.
because there are no pitt bulls and it doesn't take place at Olive Garden. 
At first I thought this was serious, until I got to the part about the cellphone
Not only is he the one who suffers, there's also the poor bastard whose car strikes the child through no fault of his own when the kid runs out from nowhere.
If that ever happened to me, I would probably be traumatized for life.
