How would you feel?

[BainsBane]

If you posted a story about a family struggling to make ends meet, to put food on the table, and someone came along and posted statistics talking bout how starvation rates are down?

How would you feel if you posted about the heinous murder of a child, and someone came along and posted a chart saying, child murder really isn't very common anymore. It's not a crisis.

You might feel just like I did when I posted about young Jada's gang rape and humiliation via social media and someone came along and posted a chart insisting rape wasn't really a crisis.

How would you interpret such responses? I interpret them as diminishing the experiences of people suffering poverty, murder, and rape. If I make a point about statistics, then responding with a counterpoint is within the bounds of acceptable debate. My view is that such a response is it at best insensitive when the context is not about patterns but a victim's experience.

[djean111]

1. Also today someone posted about disheartening it is to not be able to get

a job that paid enough to live on, and was treated to a chart of how much better things are under Obama, asking if they had seen the chart.

[BainsBane]

2. Yep, that's exactly the sort of thing

WTF is wrong with people? Why do that? Is their agenda really more important than a person's suffering?

[djean111]

3. My take-away was that not being happy about one's job situation reflects poorly on

Obama somehow. Sometimes it is like finding oneself in that Twilight Zone episode "It's A Good Life" - say something about being unhappy, get sent to the cornfield.
Also, there really are heartless people.

[hrmjustin]

4. I just read it and it pissed me off!

Some people just don't get it. Some people think that discussing rape is an attack on men.

Until we break down that view the horrific numbers of rapes in this world will continue.

[BainsBane]

5. Exactly

Diminishing the experience of rape victims is part of the propagation of rape culture.

[hrmjustin]

6. It remind me of this winter when a new member of my congregation confided in me her story.

I wonder how many people on this board would have cited those statistics. Just maddening!

[seabeyond]

14. true that. true... that. nt

[BainsBane]

48. Just a few

but they do it all the time.

[MohRokTah]

7. Men want to diminish the impact of sexual crimes against women.

Many will do anything to accomplish that.

It's just another sign of how sick our society is because the fact is, many women choose not to report their rapists and there are no statistics to show if that number is growing.

[HERVEPA]

28. Please define "many" with a percentage you bulieve to be true.

My personal belief is that it should be some, not many.

[F4lconF16]

31. Really?

Come in to a thread like this, amd say "not all men"?

Really?

If it doesn't apply to you, then it doesn't apply to you. No one is making a claim that all or even most men will do this (though I wouldn't be surprised). Just that many do.

Please don't disrupt like this. It distracts from the real problems and is insulting to those who have to deal with them.

[HERVEPA]

42. Yeh, really.

I carefully phrased an honest question trying not to be offensive.
I didn't say "not all men". It's a discussion board, not a statement board. Why post if won't discuss?

[BainsBane]

43. Google it

There are a number of estimates available. It is certainly not just some. Only a fraction of rapes are reported. Rainn has estimates on it. The point of this thread is compassion and the human experience. Feel free to post your own thread on the subject that interests you. No one here is required to track down any numbers for you, particularly when your request screams out the fact you have no concept of what is being discussed.

[HERVEPA]

44. Bullshit on my not knowing what's being discussed.

Your response screams out period.

[BainsBane]

45. I thought I'd give you the benefit of the doubt.

My mistake.

[Squinch]

52. Doesn't that qualify as "language policing?" Does "language policing" only happen when feminists

object to anti-women slurs, or can it be applied to hair splitting about adjectives?

I am pretty sure I know the answer.

[BainsBane]

72. I think we know the criies about censorship

Do not extend to feminist speech.

[Squinch]

73. Which must be censored.

[BainsBane]

74. Absolutely

as I just saw argued in another thread.

[smirkymonkey]

36. Ugh. I know. And this makes me absolutely sick.

It's out of control.

[uppityperson]

8. k&r. While perhaps gross numbers are down, it demeans individuals when that is posted in stories

about them. If someone wanted to start a thread about how gross numbers, overall, are better, that is one thing. But to post that on someone's thread about problems people are having is demeaning to them.

[dawg]

9. One victim is one victim too many.

I don't know how the statistical rate is trending for rape, but I hope it really is falling. To a large extent, the true rate is unknowable. But the phenomenon whereby this young woman was mocked on social media is something new and awful. It is indicative of a societal problem that extends far beyond the actual rapists.

[BainsBane]

10. Well said

[Phentex]

57. That's how I feel about hot car deaths of children and pets...

yet someone had to point out how low the number really is compared to other deaths. Well, for me, ONE is too many!

[nomorenomore08]

11. Thank you for articulating why certain posts in that thread made me (and others) uncomfortable. n/t

[Electric Monk]

12. If you're going to get all meta, how about including a link? Link here.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5234888

[BainsBane]

15. You've seen it plenty of times in gun threads

Mass shooting at school kills several children. Pro2a guy comes along and insists homicide is down. We don't really have a crisis. Only in those cases you object. Why should this be different?

[Electric Monk]

18. Yes, I see the similarities too, and both examples show someones true agenda.

I'm not minimizing this, just saying you could've included a link in your OP.

[BainsBane]

19. You know I couldn't do that

[seabeyond]

16. it is addressing rape, rape culture, and how discussion on rape culture is derailed.

it is way beyond meta. but then, i expect you are more comfortable reducing it to merely, .... meta.

poor form.

[Electric Monk]

17. I don't think you know what meta means, but you sure like to throw jabs.

Welcome back, by the way.

[seabeyond]

20. i dont want to play so i will leave it at, thank you for the welcome back. nt

[sheshe2]

23. It happens repeatedly.

Addressing rape or any kind of violence against women, is diminished or derailed. There are always charts and links to prove to a women that the issue is being dramatized and blown way out of proportion. Because, hey, they are victims too or just being boys.

[DURHAM D]

13. Here is how I interpret such responses.

DU has several resident assholes.

jftr - I don't know who you are talking about because I have not seen any of those threads. I will go look for them to confirm their identities.

[FreedRadical]

21. I guess it is also alert worthy

On Sun Jul 13, 2014, 08:04 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

How would you feel?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025236523

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

How many callout, META threads do we need in GD. These turn into nothing more than witch hunts to taunt members and cause more divisiveness on DU.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Jul 13, 2014, 08:11 PM, and the Jury voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Nothing disruptive with this heartfelt post.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: WTF, an alert for this? Leave it! Some alerts abuse the system and waste time!


Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Alerter, please get over yourself.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: yeah, pretty meta.

Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[el_bryanto]

22. It would depend on whether or not the incident is also an argument for

larger societal action.

But even then, one can show empathy for the suffering involved. I think oftentimes people would rather not acknowledge suffering because to do so weakens their argument.

Bryant

[rickyhall]

24. "What you do to them you do to me." J

[freshwest]

25. You clarified this perfectly for me earlier when you said in reference to something else:

Dismissing the rights and concerns of people of color and women is reactionary. It is way more reactionary than Third Way. There is nothing progressive or liberal about it, and I don't consider people who do so to be leftists. Period.

Those words should be considered by naysayers. Facts are used to bolster argument, but no amount of facts or charts disproves your argument there. It should be factored in.

[BainsBane]

41. Yes, and I think that is especially relevant to the rape issue

and using charts and numbers to dismiss the significance of rape. Sometimes it can come down to a basic lack of empathy, as the example about poverty the first responder in this thread discusses.

[JustAnotherGen]

56. +1

[redqueen]

58. +1

[Number23]

70. "There is nothing progressive or liberal about it" AMEN

[elleng]

26. At least annoyed.

Its certainly insensitive.

[LibDemAlways]

27. It's arrogant and rude to diminish someone's

suffering. I don't give a rat's ass what some cold statistic says when I'm looking at a person in pain. Any time a post describes an awful personal experience, either show some empathy or move on.

[conservaphobe]

29. Sorry that you had to experience that.

There's a den of vipers on every corner of the Internet, just waiting to strike at anyone who "treads" on them... if you know what I mean.

[BainsBane]

49. Unfortunately, it happens virtually every time

someone discusses rape.

[MarianJack]

30. F*** Statistics!

To the people it happens to, the statistic is always 100%. Using statistical data to minimize tragedy is cynical bullshit!

PEACE!

[F4lconF16]

33. Not to mention that the "statistics" referenced

in this post are about as true as Fox News "statistics". In other words, utter bull----.

"To the people it happens to, the statistic is always 100%".

Exactly. It's nothing but trying to minimize and distract, and it ignores the suffering of the victim. Disgusting

[Squinch]

55. This is, of course, completely true. But the other point about the statistics is that we all

understand the way crime statistics are being ginned to show falling crime rates right now. According to the powers that be, school violence in NYC is way down. That's because the way it is classified was changed to exclude the sidewalk block surrounding the school. When you include that sidewalk, school violence is up. The stats for all violent crimes are played with and fudged to make law enforcement look more effective.

I think all DUers accept that this is something that has been happening lately. (We all watched The Wire, right?) But when it comes to rape statistics, when the same reduction is reported, there are those here who jump on them and pass them on as gospel truth, just to say, "See? all those HoFers have their heads up their asses."

It's idiotic.

[Orrex]

32. Maybe she was asking for it, the way impoverished families are asking for it.

Good post. Crappy FB experience.


k/r

[Squinch]

54. And the way 6-year-olds from central and south America are asking for it by crossing our borders

while trying to get away from violent gangs.

[Orrex]

59. Exactly!

[liberalmuse]

34. People like that pull out numbers when it suits them.

Men who think they are being persecuted by women who want to be treated as equals like to pull out statistics much in the manner the Pope did today in an attempt to diminish the rampant pedophilia in his church. Ironically, the same men who say that rape isn't a huge deal are the same ones who believe that a majority of women lie about being raped, when their own beloved statistics tell us that is bullshit. They also like to add that more men are raped (in prison) than women, but are also the same ones who like to joke about prison rape. This is how some people try and distance themselves from real issues happening to real people. Statistics and pie charts are absolutely meaningless if you are the person going hungry or have suffered sexual abuse or sexual violence. It's insensitive and dehumanizing.

[BainsBane]

35. Isn't that the truth

Ironically, the same men who say that rape isn't a huge deal are the same ones who believe that a majority of women lie about being raped, when their own beloved statistics tell us that is bullshit.

[smirkymonkey]

37. +1000

[smirkymonkey]

38. K&R!

Excellent post. What will it take before it sinks in for so many people here?

[New Orleans Strong]

39. I live in Louisiana...

Just over a year ago, my younger brother hanged himself. Just over what seems like 5,000 years ago, we hired a governor in LOUISIANA who wiped out mental health care.
Wiped it out. Wiped out education. Raised Devil Children - I know this - don't ask - I know them. I feel like you feel. I had to go 2 1/2 hours to visit him in the only facility in the state. From New Orleans!!!! From New Orleans. Two and a half hours to the nearest mental health facility. Jeesh! Been here? Swear! That's how far the only mental health facility in the whole freaking state is from - New Orleans???

Bobby "Piyush" "Don't be the party of stupid!" Jindal? God! When I have to phone in a service, I hate that whomever has to use a name that isn't true. I CAN handle that the fact that your name isn't "Gary". I can't handle the fact that an outsourcer made you pick an " American!!!!!!!! name!"

This is, sadly, where we are. In hell. A manmade hell.
Good post. Thanks. Truth is gone...

[BainsBane]

40. I'm so sorry

What a terrible loss, and that it was preventable is all the worse. And he deliberately seeks to hold his state back and increase suffering by refusing Medicaid expansion. So awful. I'm so sorry for your loss.

[freshwest]

46. Another side of this is ideology that diminishes the desperation of those who seek solutions.

Which is why many don't talk about real life things in other than the most general of terms at DU.

What has to be done to make things work don't always meet the rigid ideology or prejudices of others not so effected.

They can stand back and criticize or obstruct, and even do grave harm. It's just one of those things where the net fails badly.

Will it ever change?

[BainsBane]

47. Good point

The human experience varies widely. Trying to make everyone's lives fit into ideological narratives is unlikely to work well.

[BainsBane]

50. kick

[William769]

51. kick & recommended.

[Squinch]

53. The percentages are down, and yet STILL one in four women is assaulted in her lifetime.

That doesn't say anything about things being good now. It just points out that things used to be absolutely impossible.

[BainsBane]

60. Not to mention rape statistics are notoriously unreliable

Given low report rates and, as you mentioned above, the ways police departments downgrade rape reports to non-sexual assault offenses to make it look like they are combating crime.

[freshwest]

63. That's true. And 'domestic violence' has literally been de-criminalized in some states.

Last edited Mon Jul 14, 2014, 09:58 PM - Edit history (2)

Laws stricken off the books. Those are states where shelters, rape crisis centers and other help have not only been defunded as others, but repealed.

Several excuses offered to explain the lack of enforcement, although it was always inconsistent and varied by state. And it was a tool to neuter the federal VAWA

Here's a few I've read or heard about:

Women should stay with their abuser to keep themselves and their children off the welfare rolls;

Domestic abuse and rape laws are used to discriminate against men and break up the family to make them dependent on government;

Children of married couples do better than in single mom or female head of household than in divorced homes;

That the abuser is being denied the chance to support his family while he is locked up to keep him away from her;

I'm not even going into religious ones, since the excuse of 'lower taxes' works for more people.

States that dare to hold to account such crimes, are labeled 'police states' who break upon families to steal children for child sex slave rings.

Yes, they really do say that. After all, no government program or agency can be trusted. But churches and private groups are doing such a great job, aren't they?

The bottom line is the abuser can be trusted. If the woman is silent, the problem disappears. Along with her, too, sometimes...

[Squinch]

71. Seriously, this makes me feel nauseous. When people talk about how feminists are too

vocal and annoying, I want to hit them over the head with this stuff.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

61. is this analogous to science diminishing the personal anecdote ... ?

[BainsBane]

62. Can you give an example?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

64. I rather think you just did. If, I am understanding correctly what is happening here.

Did you not post a personal anecdote and then some one else came along to give "scientific data" in order to diminish the experience?

to belittle what had happened.

to downplay the effect that was had.

[BainsBane]

67. Yes, I guess you're right

If you consider stats. about rape scientific data. I am not sure I do though.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

68. and this kinds of feeds of itself because we doubt the numerical truth of the stats

but, stats/numbers are measurements and those are considered to be "facts" and science is based on factual data.

[yardwork]

65. No. /nt

[Tuesday Afternoon]

66. indubitably. eom

[BainsBane]

69. On an inter-personal level, what I describe in the OP is what therapists call

invalidating someone's feelings. There are ideological connotations to whipping out the stats in the circumstances above, but if we think about it on an inter-personal level, it tells someone their feelings, their experiences, don't matter. That's why therapists teach active listening: you listen to the other person, hear what they have to say, and repeat some of it back and tell them you acknowledge how they feel. You don't tell them it's really not a crisis or even how to fix it (the latter comes later, after they ask for advice). So the above examples are a reflection of dysfunctional inter-personal relations, but when applied to social phenomenon they take on political meaning that is similar in that reaction serves to invalidate those experiences. Even if that is not the intent, it is the result.