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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsHeartbreaking....Life Below the Poverty Line in Troy, New York....pics
Last edited Thu Jul 17, 2014, 04:38 PM - Edit history (1)
Brenda Ann Kenneally takes photographs, but to call her a photographer isnt quite accurate. She prefers the term digital folk artist, and when you hear how she interacts with her subjectsfamilies living below the poverty line in Troy, New Yorkand tells their stories, it seems an apt description. Kenneally doesnt simply create media, she curates it: She collects family photo albums, school and medical records, letters from prison, scrapbooks, and even screenshots from Facebook. Since she began her project, Upstate Girls, more than 10 years ago, shes amassed thousands of photos, several terabytes of video, and scores of other documents. If you're doing documentary, you need to be the foremost authority on whatever you're doing. I don't know anything about almost everything; there are so many things to know now. But I know some stuff about these couple places, and you have to want to share that, she said. The pictures are just a way to remind me about what I've learned. No longer do I care about having pictures in a frame on the wall.
Kenneally lived in Troy, a city 140 miles north of Manhattan, and surrounding cities on and off as a child and teen. She left for good at the age of 17 after a young pregnancy and abortion, problems with drugs and the legal system, and time living in group homes. After getting sober, she studied photojournalism and sociology at the University of Miami. After graduation, she moved to Brooklyn and began photographing her neighbors struggles with poverty and drugs. She was in Troy on an assignment for the New York Times Magazine in 2002 when she met her first subject, Kayla, who later invited her to photograph the birth of her son. Beginning in 2004, Kenneally started visiting Troy regularly and began documenting the lives of seven women who lived near Kayla. To go back there was like revisiting my own culture in a very real way, Kenneally said.
Troy thrived during the Civil War, when the success of its steel processing plants served as an example of the industrialization of the United States. Shirt, collar, and textile production also boomed there. But today, Troy is a city with serious social issues: According to a report released by the New York State Community Action Association in 2010, 21.4 percent of residents in Troy live in poverty, and about 70 percent of poor families are headed by a single mother. I have dedicated my life to exploring the how and why of class inequity in America. I am concerned with the internalized social messages that will live on for generations after our economic and social policies catch up with the reality of living on the bottom rung of Americas upwardly mobile society, Kenneally said in a statement about her work. My project explores the way that money is but a symptom of self-worth and a means by which humans separate from each other. Poverty is an emotional (rather than simply) physical state with layers of marginalization that cements those who live under them into place.
Since Kenneally started her project, many of her subjects have had children and new lovers, and she has begun documenting their lives as well. She hopes to provide some sense of closure to the project soon, but not before releasing a nonlinear Web documentary feature on her subjects and a photographic novel in several parts. On the other hand, Kenneally feels her project will continue indefinitely. I never feel I could stop. I feel like I should be there right now, she said.
http://www.slate.com/blogs/behold/2014/07/17/brenda_ann_kenneally_documents_life_below_the_poverty_line_in_troy_york.html
Kayla and Tony, 2006. When Heather (left) started dating Kayla, she helped take care of her son, Tony.
Robert, 2013. Kenneally met Kaylas brother, Robert, in 2004 when he was living at the Childrens Home of Kingston. He now has two sons by two different mothers. Hes pictured here with his son, Logan.
Destiny and Deanna Pretending to Smoke, 2008. When the girls mother came home from work at the Hess convenience store, the girls would often pamper her by bringing her soda, taking her shoes off, and running to the kitchen to light her a cigarette from the stove.
Heather and Her Daughter Jada, 2010. Heather and Kayla lived together for two years until Heather had a one-night stand with a boy that both she and Kayla knew. Heather was forced to give the baby up to her mother.
more pics at link.
edited to add captions to the pictures
leftstreet
(36,103 posts)DURec
Bonx
(2,053 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Price may be unknown if one receives them as a gift.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Last edited Thu Jul 17, 2014, 05:06 PM - Edit history (1)
Since you threw that out as the first post, it seems you at least must have found this observation obvious.
In New York state, the cost of a 1 pack a day habit is 70% of federal poverty level income for a family of two.
To say it another way, a couple living at the poverty level who each have a 1 pack a day habit spend 70% of their gross annual income on cigarettes.
It is apparent that the help that the individuals in the album get is ineffective and the outcomes tragic.
The photo album from which these images are taken is... shocking. Setting aside the financial costs of smoking there is also the medical costs. The little guy on the left with the nebulizer is the same kid being held by his mom Kayla in the OP.
leftstreet
(36,103 posts)Not sure if he still smokes, but seriously would ANYONE ever ask a question like that?
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)leftstreet
(36,103 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The reason to spend money on congresspeople is to get the public interest served.
The reason to spend money on food programs for the poor is to provide nutrition.
Neither form of spending is yielding 100% success.
leftstreet
(36,103 posts)Talk about gross misspending of taxpayer dollars
...where's that recent article about the $billion+ plane fiasco
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)But child neglect earns a spot near the top of my list of complaints.
dembotoz
(16,797 posts)we need to allow them some right of self determination.
these folk look white so republicans can not send them back to mexico.....
i used to smoke
helped me deal with stress
these folks seem to be under stress
perhaps a better alternative than alcohol or weed.
these folks have nothing and you want to take away their smokes too
shame on us
Bonx
(2,053 posts)Some for the kids too.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I was that kid.
Just because you're poor doesn't mean shitty choices are what is expected.
I don't know if that photo album makes me more depressed or angry.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)To expect everyone to break free the way you apparently did, is unrealistic.
Yes, just because you are poor doesn't mean you have to make shitty choices. However the kids in your picture probably won't know how to make the "right" choices...
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)it's considered cruelty and condescension.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)We are already cutting school funding for things like sex ed, the arts, home economics, sports, drivers ed... Schools don't teach shit about how to survive in the real world. It's all about passing tests.
nikto
(3,284 posts)Incredible response.
Pure truth.
BULLS-EYE!
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The photo album shows three generations over a decade and explicitly illustrates how poverty is often is a self perpetuating cycle.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)My kid can do Calculus that looks like a foreign language to me, but I had to sit down and explain to him how banking works.
Need to repair the education system...
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)in how most people's circumstances shake out. Note that I said relatively minor, not non-existent. But I really think that to lecture these folks for their nicotine habit is to miss the point by quite a bit.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Poverty is more than a simple math problem. The maladaptation of the families depicted in the album create a situation in which the habits and behaviors of the individuals will sabotage significant or even major windfalls.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Which, of course, only makes the problem more intractable.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)A faulty electrical circuit might seem like an impenetrable problem to the carpenter, but that's simply because the wrong tools and skillset are being applied to the problem.
Looking at this photo album (and personal experience) strongly suggests that money isn't the only deficit these families face, and a debit card won't provide a complete solution.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)As much as I'd like to think people can achieve a better life for themselves, there are so many factors beyond their control.
leftstreet
(36,103 posts)Yet I'm absolutely certain you don't mean it that way
No other group of individuals with pressing issues is so marginalized and silenced by the good 'advice' of their fellow brothers and sisters.
When a gay rights organization brings gay-centered issues to light, NO ONE would even THINK of advising them on things they could do to not be gay.
Women's issues? Here are some things you could do to not be a woman
Rights for persons of color? Here are some things...
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I'm sure that you didn't mean it this way, but being poor IS a problem to be remedied. Being gay is not.
Yes, every opportunity I get, I will try to help cure a person of being poor.
leftstreet
(36,103 posts)It's fine though. People just don't get it
No one's asking you to propose a 'cure'
clarice
(5,504 posts)Is that "right choices" are considered "hate words" by many around here.
whathehell
(29,053 posts)nikto
(3,284 posts)Should she be punished for her bad behavior?
What do you think?
Would that help her learn to make better decisions?
Should food stamps/welfare be more stringent in their requirements, and more hard-ball
in their enforcement?
What's your opinion on this?
valerief
(53,235 posts)nikto
(3,284 posts)To hear Lumberjack's answer.
A Devil's advocate is needed here, IMO.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)If the effect of your choices is malnutrition and neglect experienced by your children, then I think the natural consequence is intervention on their behalf.
Better to get in front of the issue and make sure that the individuals have the tools to make better choices. The photo album shows three generations of the same maladaptive and dysfunctional behaviors. The parents aren't equipped to teach the kids.
valerief
(53,235 posts)Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)I'd like to have a better understanding of the bar graph. I'm guessing it's based on the average cost of a pack and that linking it to the poverty level may be a good general reference for starting a conversation on cigarette smoking and poverty but I suspect that it is not graphing actual average cost per pack paid by poor people.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)The average cost of a pack of cigarettes by state ($14.50 in New York) times two divided by 100% FPL income for a household of two.
So 14.5*2*365=$10,485 / $15,730 = 67.3%
If there's a cigarette stamp program whereby poor people get a discount, I'm unfamiliar with it.
valerief
(53,235 posts)I hate cigarettes.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)For the same reason that they don't buy a case of canned corn or a 25# bag of rice at the grocery store.
a) because they don't have $120
b) because the convenience store is walking distance and they can't afford gas.
Bonx
(2,053 posts)riderinthestorm
(23,272 posts)At first I was all irritated that anyone would dare question a poor person's choice to smoke but at those prices its an eye opener for sure and it does make you wonder. ..
That's a hell of a lot of money going up in smoke for the average poor person/family. ...
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)My state of Washington has the most regressive tax structure of any state and it's largely because of sin taxes.
Not that I'm a big fan of cigarettes, but the result of such high taxes is only a small decrease in smoking and a huge subsidy for Jeff Bezos, Howard Schultz and Bill Gates.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)and those are the inputs? Good to know. That tells me that the methodology used.
Seriously, you don't understand why looking at the average cost of something at a broad level to imply cost for a specific subset is problematic?
And FWIW, a statewide average for New York is likely skewed by NYC prices which have a mandated minimum cost that's about 15% higher.
As to the odd comment about a cigarette stamp program for poor people, you made the assumption that my above comment was implying that poor people all paid less. Hardly. Poor people may be paying less by buying at discounted prices or they may be paying more because they're buying from the local small business. Either way, without looking at what POOR PEOPLE pay for cigarettes on average, you have no legitimate way to claim that the statewide average is reflective of the actual prices paid by low income people.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I think, at least when the topic of food is discussed, we agree that poor people tend to buy things at higher unit prices in small quantities at local convenience stores.
If so, then 65-70% is conservative.
The average cost of a years worth of cigarettes for a two person household in New York State is 67.3% of FPL. Agree?
When you asked about the graphic, I thought you were questioning the sources rather than the artist. Yes, drew the picture.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)You can say that you are using the assumption that you laid out above, that poor people are more likely to be paying more for cigs than the average because they tend to have fewer economizing options available, but it is irresponsible to represent that as a fact without direct data to back that up.
And yes, there is nothing inaccurate in how you labeled your graphic. Again though, it's a benchmark of that metric and that alone. In order to generalize from that you would need other inputs and statistical testing to make a statement about actual costs to poor people.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)(state tax alone is $4.35 per pack)
and posit that it probably represents a nontrivial percentage of their "below the poverty line" household income. Probably more than half.
Something else we know?
It is seriously fucked up if mom's pride is the overriding concern.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)You're using a mean cost per pack x 2 to arrive at a household cost for a 2 person, low income household with income at the FPL.
We've already discussed why I see the mean as a problematic metric.
Now you're throwing "mom's pride" into your argument, which implies that the other member of your hypothetical household is a child. Are each of them smoking a pack a day, or is the one adult now up to two packs?
Again, in terms of trying to get an actual estimate one would need to know other data. I've already mentioned cost. The other big one is number of cigarettes consumed per day on average. I strongly suspect that the mean consumption is much lower than a pack a day in households living at or below the FPL but I don't have enough knowledge of this area to make even a WAG on that.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)... and a series of live-in partners, all of whom apparently smoke. I'm using the household provided by the OP as an example, not creating a hypothetical.
Downthread it is noted that poor people are still poor, even if they don't smoke. This may be true, but in New York State, a 100% of fpl household that quits smoking has three times the disposable income that they had previously. Enough savings to heat the home in which their children live.
A one pack a day habit costs a person in NY state nearly $30 daily. Averaged over a year, heating oil costs $8.
Yes, I would begrudge a person this "vice"/"simple pleasure"/"luxury" if it makes the difference between feeding their kids and not.
And I agree, for cost reasons if nothing else, I would expect consumption to be less than a pack a day, but the photo album suggests that it is pervasive and ubiquitous.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)These parents should really be more responsible about allocating their limited resources, yet I understand that they are addicted. I am not sure where I fall on this. I think that addicted individuals need more resources as far as helping to quit their addictions. The children do suffer because of the parent's addictions, and I think it's unfortunate and it needs to be dealt with.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I shouldn't be so heartless as to deny people their addictions.
I get that addictions are powerful. What I don't get is that I shouldn't place any value judgments on the addiction itself; I shouldn't criticize addictions that compel people to prioritize it over nutrition or heat.
Okay, I'm judging. I think that addictions are suboptimal ways to spend scarce resources, and when public funds are the source of those poverty-level incomes, I think that we should rethink the delivery mechanism to help assure that the help is achieving its intended purpose; nutrition, shelter, education.
Secondarily, I think more needs to be done to assure that the beneficiaries have the skills, tools and education to make reasonable choices... including more resources to quit addictions.
Failing that, I think they shouldn't be insulated from the consequences.
rickyhall
(4,889 posts)leftstreet
(36,103 posts)The article gives people an opportunity to hear about the issues impoverished people face
But too many can't HEAR over the sound of THEIR OWN VOICES telling the impoverished what they should/shouldn't do or NOW WHAT I WOULD DO IF IT WERE ME, blah, blah, blah
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)leftstreet
(36,103 posts)It's so predictable
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Albeit perhaps better-fed ones.
leftstreet
(36,103 posts)You're certainly consistent in your desire to 'cure' the impoverished
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Skeeter Barnes
(994 posts)I guess only the wealthy are allowed to be addicted to nicotene. For them, it's a bad habit. If you're poor, it's a character flaw. Proof of neglect, even.
Bootstraps, people! Bootstraps!
Bonx
(2,053 posts)and raising children.
Skeeter Barnes
(994 posts)And nicotene addiction is very powerful, more so than alcohol, in my personal experience. And let's not pretend that even if they quit, they wouldn't still be in the poorhouse. Blaming them or criticizing them is not what comes to my mind when I look at those pictures. They are part of the underpaid / unemployed underclass in this country and I feel sorry for them.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)Skeeter Barnes
(994 posts)I ask because that's basically what I said, let's not pretend they wouldn't still be poor if they quit...
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)liberal N proud
(60,334 posts)sharp_stick
(14,400 posts)well more like around it but you can really see how it used to be a nice place and how badly it's fallen over the last several years.
a kennedy
(29,642 posts)heartbreaking......
aikoaiko
(34,165 posts)Liberal_in_LA
(44,397 posts)Response to one_voice (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
murielm99
(30,730 posts)states don't simply dump their "problems," aka poor people, on other states, just to be rid of them.
dembotoz
(16,797 posts)who want the problem to go elsewhere
long documented history with mental illness and indigent hospital discharges
Moostache
(9,895 posts)Roosevelt and the New Deal showed that such things and thinking that putting people to work BUILDING THINGS IN THIS COUNTRY make a difference and can work when done with the proper funding and focus. Hell, the TVA is STILL around and making money today, some 80 years later!!!
We have a a huge problem in America with infrastructure and unemployment. We have too many unemployed and too many projects that need to be done. Its time to stop focusing so much on what CAN'T be done and just get it done once more. People need hope more than pity or money or relief. A hopeless life does not give a shit about the health effects or costs of smoking, they just care that for the length of a cigarette they might feel something other than despair, self-loathing or depression.
How many goddamn fools in the GOP house are we going to suffer before we smack one on the right cheek, scream "ONE", then another on the left cheek and scream "TWO" and then kick them both in the ass while exclaiming "THREE GODDAMN IT!!!!!!"???
I will always be disappointed in President Obama because in 2008 I believed he would be the answer to the question "What if RFK had lived?" Realistic or not, I believed that when he said "Change" and "Hope" that he meant it for the majority of all Americans, not just the blood sucking banksters and political donors. Not just half-measures and partial "wins", but a full-on actual reversal. of Reaganomics, everything that he has been accused of by the idiots of the Tea Party the GOP, but actually happening instead of being the fodder they use to gin up the base without the real policies behind them. He was going to really set the world on fire the way FDR had, the way many hoped for from RFK before that horrible night in June of '68.
The problems in this country are not that unsolvable. The solutions exist. They have been used once to bring us back from the brink of something far uglier than anyone should wish to ever see. They CAN be brought back again, and they WILL work again, but not as long as the two parties are content to point fingers at each other while holding their hands behind their backs for some more of that sweet, sweet campaign cash in exchange for the soul of the nation.
Aerows
(39,961 posts)by its priorities. Apparently, the majority would care to spend it on war, and not building OUR country.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)clarice
(5,504 posts)KansDem
(28,498 posts)Robert, I'm just going to give our viewers a quick run-through of what items poor families in America have. Ninety-nine percent of them have a refrigerator. Eighty-one percent have a microwave. Seventy-eight percent have air conditioning. Sixty-three percent have cable TV. Fifty-four percent have cell phones. Forty-eight percent have a coffee maker -- I'm not surprised, they're only about 10 bucks. Thirty-eight percent have a computer. Thirty-two percent have more than two TVs. Twenty-five percent have a dishwasher.
This, Sir, Mr. Rector, is very different what it was just a few years ago, isn't it?
ROBERT RECTOR (Heritage Foundation senior research fellow): No, actually what you see is that the living standards of the poor have increased rather steadily for the last 30 years. And in fact, the poverty report has not accurately reflected their living conditions really for several decades.
VARNEY: Now, I understand that today, the federal government says 14 percent of the population lives in poverty, and that's roughly the same as it was back in 1966, before all the Great Society programs. But doesn't that look poverty as a financial, a monetary thing?
RECTOR: Yes, part of the reason that when you look at the actual living conditions of the 43 million people that the Census says are poor, you see that in fact, they have all these modern conveniences. If you ask them, did your family have enough food to eat at all times during the last year, the overwhelming majority will say yes. If you ask them were you able to meet any medical needs you may have had, they will say yes.
The typical poor family in the United States lives in a house or an apartment and actually has more living space than the average European. Not a poor European, but the average Frenchman or the average German.
So, in fact, there really isn't any connection between the government's identification of poor people and the actual living standards and the typical American -- when an American hears the word "poverty," he's thinking about somebody that doesn't have enough food to eat, someone that's possibly homeless. It's not true. [Fox News, Your World with Neil Cavuto, 7/19/11]
http://mediamatters.org/research/2011/07/22/fox-cites-ownership-of-appliances-to-downplay-h/148574
So they can't be that poor!
OnlinePoker
(5,719 posts)Who the hell owns a photocopier at home (unless they're talking about a scanner with a printer attached)?
KansDem
(28,498 posts)I know a couple of families that have such an arrangement. They're not "poor" but they're not affluent, either.
Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)When I looked at inexpensive printers (I'm talking in the $30-50/range) most of them also had a photocopy function.
OnlinePoker
(5,719 posts)Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)Do you have a computer printer?
Do you have a photocopier?
Do you have a scanner?
The answer will be yes to all even though it's only one machine, unless the questions were qualified in some way to only count the device once. Thus it may appear that all those poor people have stand-alone photocopiers but without a codebook (questionnaires, response categories, interviewer instructions) it's hard to say what it actually means.
*former social science survey designer here.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)a median family of 4 needs $130,000 a year to live. To live not to struggle. To be able to take a vacation once a year, to be able to eat out twice a month and go see a movie once in awhile.
The median income in the US is $50,000.
There is always a lot of talk about how many people are living in poverty, but the truth is most of the other people(besides the wealthy) are only one or 2 paychecks away from poverty. We are all eating the giant shit sandwich...
nikto
(3,284 posts)IMO, Lumberjack got utterly plowed-under by your simple statements of truth.
SomethingFishy
(4,876 posts)I think Lumberjacks heart is in the right place... and at least we agree that something needs to be done..
nikto
(3,284 posts)I just feel punitive actions do no good.
Free-choices (which include the healthiest choices) will indicate those who can re-build their lives most readily, IMO.
grasswire
(50,130 posts)very sad
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)And yep - and now at 12 he needs it to go to sleep.
On some level I can relate to lumberjackjeff's comments -
But . . .
I've never known a hungry, cold, shelter insecure day in my life. I've never (at 41) walked into a grocery store with a budget. I've never had to buy subpar food because that is what I can walk to.
Who am I to judge? At the end of the day the children in those photos need help.
They didn't ask to be born. Some of us hit the lottery the first time our mother holds us. We had parents whose hard work paid off. Too many people work their fingers to the bone - and they never get the payoff. And their children suffer.
one_voice
(20,043 posts)They didn't ask to be born. Some of us hit the lottery the first time our mother holds us. We had parents whose hard work paid off. Too many people work their fingers to the bone - and they never get the payoff. And their children suffer.
It's bullshit to tell people all you have to do is work hard and everything will be good. It just doesn't work like that.
JustAnotherGen
(31,798 posts)Gormy Cuss
(30,884 posts)and even I won't judge.
PowerToThePeople
(9,610 posts)IrishAyes
(6,151 posts)maybe just not enough of them to learn how to use a pitchfork.
Bread lines turn into bread riots easily enough, then it's only a blink or two before other dominoes fall.
TRoN33
(769 posts)I live in Vermont not far from Troy. I tend to drive through that city for visiting my sister and her family. I feel bad for people of Troy. The part that angers me the most is that there are two McDonalds within two mile from each other on very same road and one of them is brand new. It's farce. It's insult. It's so full of bullshit. I even stopped by food store for health foods and one simple salad of lettuce, peppers, carrots, and some spices costs me more than $15! Big Mac? $1.99 or something.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Every census block in which more than 1000 per square mile are on food stamps should have a for-real grocery store, even if the government has to build and staff it.
...And they don't sell energy drinks, cigarettes or Mountain Dew.
nikto
(3,284 posts)That sounds like quite practical social-eezum to me.
We need non-punitive solutions to separate, by behavior, the many that can be helped,
from the relatively few who may be "hopeless" (i.e. those who chronically make bad choices).
You have to give people a chance to choose the right thing, so they can dignify themselves,
in order to start the process of really being helped, and striving to improve.
JI7
(89,244 posts)people who work long hours for little pay .
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Eating healthy is extremely expensive and out of the reach of most underprivileged families. Eating at fast food places is cheaper and easier, but contributes to obesity. The poor are set up for a life of ill health. This country does not make it easy for them to live healthfully. There needs to be a major change in the way communities are set up in order to provide all people with access to healthy food at reasonable prices.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)look around....
"They cant be poor because they have a TV, a phone and a fridge..." = the Rethuglican argument.
JI7
(89,244 posts)because you can afford to eat out more (and with that comes gas money). you are able to get your messages sent to somewhere/someone else that you can check in on when you want.
and you can afford much better ways to entertain and pass time such as going on vacations, movies etc rather than sit home in front of the tv.
marions ghost
(19,841 posts)which is why they can kick back in their luxury homes like feudal lords and continue to advocate against government helping the poor like it's just some business belt-tightening...
They know nothing of grinding poverty, food insecurity, family breakdown --where life becomes a matter of feral survival day to day. Where you can hardly face the sun coming up.
They don't want to know and they don't care. They are shallow, callous, greedy narcissists who think they deserve it all, while others deserve nothing. They certainly don't subscribe to Christian values. I don't care what your personal philosophy or religion is--we ARE our brothers keepers. We do have to provide avenues for struggling out of the pit of poverty.
nikto
(3,284 posts)But someday, HUGE MOBS of these people will burn rich people alive, hang them from lampposts,
shoot them down like dogs, etc etc etc
Think of Madame LaFarge from "A Tale Of Two Cities".
Resolute, unblinking, utterly devoid of mercy, relentless.
This is after decades of being beaten-down.
Bob Dylan said, "...stare into the vacuum of his [her] eyes".
An astonishing desire for cruelty is surely being built up in those ragged hearts and minds.
Just look at historical France, Russia, and other revolutions as well.
I would never do or approve of such things myself, nor would anyone I know.
But thankfully, I am not crushed by poverty, so I could still be reasonable, even with my perceived oppressors.
But the "primitivizing" of mass-numbers of people via poverty imposed by the wealthy and powerful,
virtually guarantees that the mass-mobs to arise in the future will be extra-brutal and cruel to their
oppressors.
And that time will certainly come, eventually.
There's no escaping it, IMO.
I may not live long-enough to see it.
And maybe that's OK.
It's gonna' be U-GLY.
Skittles
(153,138 posts)poor people don't want to KILL rich people - they just want FAIRNESS
nikto
(3,284 posts)Just read some history.
The oppressed poor have longer memories than you give them credit for.
Because that "fairness" does not look to be forthcoming in America, 2014.
America has a special taste for violence as evidenced vividly in its mass-entertainment (which the poor flock to),
as well as a love of guns.
The US just might make the French Rev/Russian Revs look tame by comparison.
Unless that "Fairness" you speak of starts comin'-down-the-pike pretty darn soon...
Skittles
(153,138 posts)such a shame you'll miss people being burned in the streets
leftstreet
(36,103 posts)Impoverished people are violent primitives?
Jesus Christ
By the way do you know anything about the French Revolution? Anything at all?
nikto
(3,284 posts)I say that of the Common People are pushed down long enough, they will push back, with extreme prejudice,
as they did in other revolutions.
I am saying, that by not being reasonable and compromising now, the elites are sealing their fate in the future, because there will be blowback.
I taught poor children in the gang-filled inner-city for over 30 years. Most are good people, who,
if given a chance, will work hard at anything you give them. But they may not be getting that chance from the society that ships out their jobs and depresses their wages.
But if pushed and abused long enough, many poor folks will react aggressively to their perceived oppressor.
They are not helpless little ciphers who will just hurt each other when frustrated (as the elites seem to think).
Most are not peacenicks, either.
Teachers are not allowed to teach Liberal Values and critical thinking anymore (as they were in my earlier days), so their moderating influence on society has been lessened, on mass-numbers of kids,
as test-scores now rule The Schools.
This was eloquently pointed out by SomethingFishy.
Yes, America's poor are capable of more violence than just gang-shootings, even though we don't see it much now.
They are after all, human.
I believe they seem to be resigned to the life of poverty. Tired and defeated, not angry.
nikto
(3,284 posts)I just don't think they will stay submissive forever.
"Talkin' 'bout a revolution, sounds like a whisper."
Tracy Chapman.
Skittles
(153,138 posts)hoo boy
nikto
(3,284 posts)I'm not clear on the reason for your skepticism.
If you need reminding as to who the elites might be & what they do, and how they relate to
the economic struggles of ordinary folks (here, and in other countries too), these might help...
http://globalfreedommovement.org/chris-hedges-elites-will-make-gazans-us/
http://hope.journ.wwu.edu/tpilgrim/j190/Chomsky.summary.html
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/03/16/1194506/-The-Power-Elites-Understanding-How-They-Control-The-Citizenry#
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)I haven't been in Troy in about 15 years. It was very economically depressed then, and totally dependent on the UNIVERSITY for it's economy. Some bars, restaurants, and shops which catered to the students, but not much else. My daughter played the university's women's ice hockey team when I was last there.