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[Archae]

1. Unfortunately we have too many "Palestinians can do no wrong" people here.

"The Palestinians launching terrorist weapons against Israel is JUST FINE with us!"

No condemnation of the kidnapping and murder of 3 Israeli boys, no condemnation of putting those rocket launchers near hospitals, playgrounds or schools.

This is just an extension of the old group, "Pilgrims to Arafat," who ignored how brutal, and corrupt he and his cronies were.

[Cali_Democrat]

2. Interesting

Youre right, many Americans claim drone attacks in foreign countries help to protect against future attacks.

You're using the same logic when it comes to Israel.

So I'm assuming you support Israel's actions in Gaza?

[Bonobo]

4. I think that you have to take away weapons away from people using them against you

in your own backyard.

There is no comparison to be made to that and sending drones to fire missiles at people 5,000 miles away. No comparison at all.

But anyway, you didn't answer the question of the OP. Is that because you can't?

[Cali_Democrat]

14. So it's an issue of proximity for you

Some Americans argue that folks in Aghanistan and tribal areas of Pakistan have the means to attack and drones put a stop to those potential attacks. Whether it be attacks on US soil or other US interests such as embassies. Israelis call Hamas terrorists. Americans call the al Qaeda and the Taliban terrorists.

Do I agree with that reasoning?

No, but you are essentially using the same reasoning.

I thought you opposed these kinds of strikes, but you are using the same logic and you're making an exception when it comes to Israel.

Very interesting indeed.

[evlbstrd]

3. A free Palestine is off the table?

Too bad. That would help. A lot. So would ending the illegal settlements. Stop pumping in so much U.S. military aid. The list is long.

[Bonobo]

5. No, it is NOT off the table. I am all for it.

But it's a long road to get there and when you're getting weekly rockets fired against you, you have to do something.

Tell me this: If the rockets are such a "non-threat", why does HAMAS continue to use them?

[evlbstrd]

11. Who said they weren't a threat? Not I.

And I know it was Hamas that refused to go along with the Egyptian cease-fire plan.
The road has been traveled many, many times, with no end in sight. I have no easy solutions. But I do think the U.S. should make its military aid contingent on real progress toward peace.

[Bonobo]

19. So if they are a threat, they have to be stopped.

And they have to be stopped while trying as best as possible to not kill loads of people.

Is Israel trying their best not to kill loads of people? I don't know. I like to think so. I hope so.

All this talk of ethnic cleansing though... If Israel DID want to kill all Palestinians, they could. Easily.

Which means they don't want to.

The Israeli Army is made up of regular folks. Most of them are good people. I think they are much more moral than most armies.

I have no answers either and I am against the treatment of Palestinians in Israel, but I must point out that HAMAS plays a game that makes it all worse.

[evlbstrd]

28. Have you even listened to Netanyahu?

Does he seem to you like someone who wants peace with Palestinians? Or an independent Palestine?
Good people in war zones are just as capable of dehumanizing as anyone else (Abu Ghraib, My Lai, etc.)

[Bonobo]

33. I do not like him and neither do many Israelis. nt

[evlbstrd]

38. They shouldn't keep voting for his party. nt

[Bonobo]

44. Bushes was in charge of the US for 12 years.

The US has killed millions in the last 50 years AFTER WW2.

And yet, you do not hold yourself and others on DU accountable.

And those millions were done against people who posed no physical threat to the US.

I sometimes think people really don't understand how small Israel is and how surrounded they are by people that want them exterminated.

[HooptieWagon]

7. +1000

Maybe if Israel wasn't stealing Palestinian land, the Palestinians wouldn't be so pissed at them.

I'm thinking Palestine should be returned to its rightful owners, the Palestinians.

[Archae]

8. Even if Palestinians were given a whole state...

Let's say the top half of Israel, just for argument's sake.

You know what they'd be doing?

Continuing attacks on Israel and continuous in-fighting and attacks on other Arabs.
The Palestinians have shown over and over that they hate everybody.

[HooptieWagon]

15. After a thousand years of occupation...

... by the Ottoman-Turks, the British, and the Jews, its understandable they'd be a bit cranky.

[Archae]

18. That's no damn excuse.

Especially when you remember what happened when Jordan gave the Palestinians their own state within Jordan.

They tried to take over.

[Maedhros]

31. The essence of your argument seems to be that the Palestinian people are just inherently

savage, dangerous and deceitful, therefore the only choice is to herd them into ghettos and kill them.

[Archae]

40. Wrong.

They need better leadership.

No more Yassir Arafats who steal everything they get their hands on.

No more Hamas that does nothing but glory in mindless destruction.

[HooptieWagon]

35. Native Americans were a bit pissed off...

... when Europeans stole their land, and crowded them into reservations with few resources to survive. This is exactly the same. Its genocide.

[evlbstrd]

16. That's not even an argument.

I see Israel as the attacker since 1947. The Palestinians fight back, against terrible odds.

[klook]

6. Stop stealing land, maybe?

http://www.juancole.com/2014/07/palestinian-thwarted-speaking.html

[HooptieWagon]

9. +1000

[Bonobo]

12. A rocket is coming at you right now....

"Oh no! What should I do?"

ANSWER: "Stop stealing land"? Really? You're going with that?

[HooptieWagon]

22. They reap what they've sown.

Steal land, and people are going to hold a grudge. And rightfully so.

[geek tragedy]

24. Hey, your side's policy of "kill and oppress the Palestinians until they cry uncle" has worked

wonders at stopping the rockets these past 47 years.

Why are you turning to us for advice?

[klook]

64. Well, obviously the answer is to launch an equivalent attack

at 238 Palestinians... because one Israeli life is worth 238* Palestinian lives -- oh wait, make that 247, or maybe only 240 -- at least in the current battle, as of today's latest reports that I've seen. (Let's not worry ourselves with the estimated 1,910 Palestinian casualties.)

* Gaza health officials said 238 Palestinians, most of them civilians, had been killed since Israel began the air and sea offensive on July 8 in what it called a response to mounting rocket salvoes into its cities. One Israeli civilian has been killed. - Reuters

[malaise]

23. Ding ding we have a winner

+1,000

[Aerows]

51. I agree with you my friend

and an eye for an eye makes the world blind.

[geek tragedy]

10. I'll take door # "not treat the Palestinians like animals and seek a negotiated peace"

That 'tiny' country has the most powerful military within a 1000 mile radius.

Stop buildings settlements. Stop talking about "Judea and Samaria" and pretending that some words on scrolls from thousands of years ago trumps the human beings and communities there now. And become willing to allow an actual Palestinian state, not some rag-tag bantustans still possessed by the IDF.

[Bonobo]

13. Wait, let me think if that will stop the rockets..... Hmm... well....

Nope, nothing in your post would stop rockets being fired on a weekly basis and sometimes several times a week.

[geek tragedy]

20. Were there rockets being fired in April, May, or June?

Israel doesn't want security--they want CONTROL.

Security means making peace with their neighbors and ending the occupation.

That's not what Israel wants. Israel wants to control and dominate the Palestinians, not make peace with them.

Occupation and killing civilians hasn't stopped the rockets. Why not give something else a try?

[Bonobo]

29. Yes, a shitload of them. Too many to cut and paste. Did you not read the link?

There were 30 rocket attacks in those 3 months that you THINK were free of rocket attacks.

That's 10/month or 2.5/week.

How would you like that within a space as small as Israel? Israel has to endure that without taking away the rockets from the terrorists? Really?

[geek tragedy]

49. Here is the reality: the only thing that can stop the rockets is a Palestinian state on the ground.

A state would have the legitimacy with the local population to crack down on the terrorists. It would have a very simple argument--we achieved a state, and we will not let you fuck it up for us. And it could proceed from that premise.

That is the only way you are going to get Palestinians to look after Israel's safety.

A Palestinian state is the only way Israel will be safe.


The problem is that Israel is governed by extreme rightwing racists who want to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians out of "Judea and Samaria" so they can realize their religious fundamentalist dream of Greater Israel, because these rightwing fucknut racists believe God gave them a special title to the land. They live in the world as it existed 3000 years ago.

You want to know who governs Israel?

This is the #2 guy in Likud:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/15326#.U8hiqLFA2zJ

Ultimatum – One warning from the Prime Minister of Israel to the enemy population, in which he announces that Israel is about to attack military targets in their area and urges those who are not involved and do not wish to be harmed to leave immediately. Sinai is not far from Gaza and they can leave. This will be the limit of Israel’s humanitarian efforts. Hamas may unconditionally surrender and prevent the attack.

Attack – Attack the entire ‘target bank’ throughout Gaza with the IDF’s maximum force (and not a tiny fraction of it) with all the conventional means at its disposal. All the military and infrastructural targets will be attacked with no consideration for ‘human shields’ or ‘environmental damage’. It is enough that we are hitting exact targets and that we gave them advance warning.

Siege – Parallel to the above, a total siege on Gaza. Nothing will enter the area. Israel, however, will allow exit from Gaza. (Civilians may go to Sinai, fighters may surrender to IDF forces).

Defense – Any place from which Israel or Israel’s forces were attacked will be immediately attacked with full force and no consideration for ‘human shields’ or ‘environmental damage’.

Conquer – After the IDF completes the "softening" of the targets with its fire-power, the IDF will conquer the entire Gaza, using all the means necessary to minimize any harm to our soldiers, with no other considerations.

Elimination- The GSS and IDF will thoroughly eliminate all armed enemies from Gaza. The enemy population that is innocent of wrong-doing and separated itself from the armed terrorists will be treated in accordance with international law and will be allowed to leave. Israel will generously aid those who wish to leave.

Sovereignty – Gaza is part of our Land and we will remain there forever. Liberation of parts of our land forever is the only thing that justifies endangering our soldiers in battle to capture land. Subsequent to the elimination of terror from Gaza, it will become part of sovereign Israel and will be populated by Jews. This will also serve to ease the housing crisis in Israel. The coastal train line will be extended, as soon as possible, to reach the entire length of Gaza.

Guys like this don't want Israel to be safe, they want genocide. And they won't get their genocide if they allow a Palestinian state.

The problem is that Israel has become what it once abhorred.

[Bonobo]

53. I largely agree.

But the rockets? They are not helping their side.

If the Palestinians are to be trusted as able to live side by side with Israel, they must show that they can clamp down on HAMAS.

Terrorism on a constant basis must not be allowed.

HAMAS is to blame for the Gaza situation right now, this time.

[geek tragedy]

55. Israel would be very smart to recommend that the UN take over Gaza.

And the WB. As a transition to an independent Palestinian state. They could do that tomorrow.

But, Netanyahu has sworn that Israel will never withdraw its troops from the West Bank. So, he's essentially told Palestinians the only way they will have their own state is if they destroy Israel.

[Archae]

26. All they are doing is making excuses for Hamas.

[Aerows]

54. Just keep killing then

That solves nothing. At some point, people have to stop murdering each other. It doesn't matter which side stops first, just that people quit killing one another.

[Bonobo]

59. But the rocket attacks come when there is no killing by the Israeli side as well.

They don't stop.

Yes, Palestinians deserve much better treatment.

But what do you expect would happen when your leaders fire rocket attacks against civilians several times a week.

Obviously they will try to stop the rockets, yes? Let's not pretend HAMAS is not creating an enemy through their own actions in order to bolster their case against "evil Israel".

[Aerows]

62. Like I said

someone has to lay down the swords. An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind. Someone has to be the bigger person and STOP the killing.

[cpwm17]

17. It's not difficult

Stop stealing land and resources, end apartheid, end the blockade, make reparations, treat them like humans, stop pretending to be the victim, and give them equal rights.

[Spazito]

27. Exactly!

Remove the illegal settlers from Palestinian lands, return the land to the Palestinians would be a good first step, imo.

[MohRokTah]

21. I lay all of the current violence at the feet of Hamas

There have been several cease fires and every time, Hamas fires rockets or mortars into Israel to break the cease fire.

Israel has been more than patient on this.

I do not like how the Israelis have treated the Palestinians, but every death in this current bout of violence is 100% the fault of Hamas and Hamas alone.

Israel has been completely justified in recent actions.

[Gravitycollapse]

30. Obviously, blame falls on both the IDF and Hamas as well as their respective political wings.

To say that 100% of the violence and death falls on Hamas is quite literally the denial of a transparent reality.

[GeorgeGist]

34. Including blowing up kids playing on the beach?

Israel has been completely justified in recent actions.

[MohRokTah]

39. War is war.

When you make war against a nation, you have to expect retaliation.

Civilian casualties are a consequence of war.

Hamas killed those children. Hamas is 100% responsible. Had they not broken the cease fire, the children would not be dead.

[Gravitycollapse]

25. They have two options: Meet the demands of Hamas or bomb them into submission.

I think historical evidence has demonstrated a general lack of efficacy for the latter.

[Maedhros]

36. And your argument seems to be that the Palestinians should just sit down, shut up

and accept that their homeland has been stolen.

When are conquered people allowed to fight back against their invaders?

[Gravitycollapse]

43. The question by the OP was what Israel should do about the missile attacks...

I gave the possible answers. That says nothing about how I feel about Hamas or the Palestinian people.

You must be confusing myself or my statements with someone else and their statements.

[name not needed]

46. Meeting Hamas' demands means another 6 million dead Jews.

Somehow I don't see the Israelis going for that one.

[Gravitycollapse]

48. "Hamas proposes 10-year cease-fire in return for conditions being met"

http://www.jpost.com/Operation-Protective-Edge/What-are-Hamass-conditions-for-a-cease-fire-363011

Hamas's conditions were the release of re-arrested Palestinian prisoners who were let go in the Schalit deal, the opening of Gaza-Israel border crossings in order to allow citizens and goods to pass through, and international supervision of the Gazan seaport in place of the current Israeli blockade.

[Bonobo]

50. Maybe they should be met... But...

A big part of me says that that kind of giving in to terrorism really DOES embolden terrorists.

Also, no politician can ever do it. It is political suicide and I suspect HAMAS knows that as well.

[Gravitycollapse]

57. Except Hamas is not a terrorist organization. It is both a political and military group.

What they are committing now may constitute acts of terrorism. But they are not terrorists in the sense that their sole objective is not to commit terrorist acts. They are a political and military group with stated domestic objectives for the people they govern.

I don't consider the IDF to be a terrorist group but they're also bombing kids playing soccer on the beach. So, let's be careful about throwing around the "terrorist" label.

Hamas have made their demands known. Israel decided to broker a deal with Egypt without consulting Hamas. That seems counterproductive to the peace process and I assume Israel knows this. The time has come for the two to broker with each other even if that means having a mediator.

[Bonobo]

63. I say terrorist here in a very specific and accurate sense.

The rockets have no purpose other than to cause terror.

They are not strategic weapons to acquire territory, defend positions or anything like that.

They are used for political purposes. So I WAS careful about the term.

In contrast, the 3 children killed on the beach was collateral damage caused by an attack with a very specific purpose that was NOT intended to induce terror.

[Bonobo]

66. THAT is as silly as the idiots that compare Israel to Nazi Germany. nt

[Spider Jerusalem]

32. Withdraw from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip and abandon the settlements, for a start?

Questions like this are a bit like "what should we do about the cowardly attacks of Indians on wagon trains?" circa 1850's.

[Bonobo]

37. Those rockets would go a lot further fired from the Golan Heights, that's for sure.

[Spider Jerusalem]

41. Who said anything about the Golan Heights?

Last time I checked they weren't in the West Bank or Gaza.

[Bonobo]

47. Many people think they should be returned as well. nt

[Gravitycollapse]

45. The assumption you're making is that Hamas would still attack after their demands were met...

Remember, the cease fires have been brokered by Egypt and Israel. Neither of which are allied with Hamas.

Israel needs to broker a deal directly with Hamas.

[alcibiades_mystery]

42. NOT murder 1,000 civilians

Easy answers are often the best.

[mike_c]

52. stop occupying Palestinian land...?

That would be a good start.

[The Second Stone]

56. The Nazi solution to the Warsaw Ghetto uprising was a crime against humanity

Israel's solution to the criminal activity of some of the people in Gaza is collective punishment of all. The only difference between Israel and the Nazis with respect to Gaza and the Warsaw Ghetto is one of severity.

Crimes against humanity are an offense to all humanity. All of the perpetrators should be charged in court, including the soldiers just following orders.

Now the supporters of Israel usually at this point claim that the comparison is so offensive as to be dismissible and contemptible and very offensive. So what. It is just an argument and a comparison. Too bad that they are offended, the people that live in Gaza are prisoners and are being killed and made homeless. That the Holocaust was committed by the Germans against Jews does not justify, excuse or ameliorate a slow-motion-Holocaust-light by the Israelis against the people of Gaza.

I liked the ends that Heydrich and Eichmann met. I hope that every Israeli soldier, officer and politician involved gets a fair trial for crimes against humanity.

[Bonobo]

65. And there it is folks.

The nauseating and unjustifiable comparison to Nazis.

You lose any shred of respect you may have had with that one if you don't see the difference in both quality and quantity. It's absolutely pathetic and ignorant.

[enid602]

60. Shawn

They should give up the iron dome we gave them and fight a fair fight. What an insult to the US to use this gift to flatten Gaza. How quickly the victims becomr the ahgressors.

[hrmjustin]

61. Murdering civilians is not the answer. Gaza is even smaller and they have no Iron Dome.

They have no place to run to.

My sympathies are with the people being killed, wounded and being terrorized. Btw I feel for Israel that they have to worry about bombs but murdering civilians us not the answer.