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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region Forums60 Palestinians killed today including women and children- it was actually 120 killed
Last edited Mon Jul 21, 2014, 08:19 AM - Edit history (1)
When will the West pay attention to this genocide?
At least 120 Palestinians were killed on Sunday in Shujai'iya, a third of them women and children. Thirteen Israeli soldiers were also killed on the same day, in the heaviest loss of life for the Israeli military in years, two of them US citizens.
Mounting international pressure for a ceasefire came amid continuing violence in Gaza. Overnight, Israeli strikes hit Gaza City, and the south and centre of the coastal enclave, home to 1.8 million people.
Twenty-five members of the same family were reported killed in an airstrike in the south of Gaza, and a further 10 people were killed near Khan Younis.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/gaza-crisis-obama-ceasefire-fighting-goes-on
gopiscrap
(23,757 posts)are becoming the very thing they fled from: Nazi's! My mom who grew up during Nazi times told me a story about how the Nazi's would go into towns and kill 100 civillians for every soldier killed. This in some ways reminds me of that!
malaise
(268,949 posts)Jimmy Carter is one of the few honest spokespersons on this mess.
I'm glad to see a few journalists refusing to support this slaughter.
Sadly Israel's backers have lost all moral authority to speak about the slaughter of innocents.
and their strong lobby has pretty much bought all of Congress or at least silenced them into electoral fear
malaise
(268,949 posts)Trust me.
gopiscrap
(23,757 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)because that's what the use of the phrase "the worm turns" infers.
malaise
(268,949 posts)Just because you assert yourself, become forceful and stop accepting a situation doesn't mean violence. It also infers that people's opinions and interpretations on what's going on change - and they wake up and see what is going on.
So, for example, the worm has turned on climate change - please show the violence there.
cali
(114,904 posts)and the original context is one of violence. secondly it is widely defined as involving revenge and violence:
Even a worm will turn is an expression used to convey the message that even the meekest or most docile of creatures will retaliate or get revenge if pushed too far, and that circumstances can bring a change of fortune.[1] The phrase originates from William Shakespeare's play Henry VI, Part 3.[2][3] The original phrase was uttered by Lord Clifford, killer of Rutland as, "To whom do lions cast their gentle looks? Not to the beast that would usurp their den. The smallest worm will turn being trodden on, And doves will peck in safeguard of their brood."[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Even_a_worm_will_turn
I wasn't accusing you of wishing for more violence, but that is what the phrase denotes. Yes, I'm picky about language. It's what we have as a tool to communicate- particularly in a written context.
malaise
(268,949 posts)and that hardly changes the fact that it has other meanings today.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)and recorder of the history of his times, such as this one, which violent governments should keep in mind 'Violence begets violence'. If someone doesn't want to rouse up enough anger that violence becomes likely as a backlash, then the thing to do is don't kill their innocent civilians and remove any elected officials who advocate the slaughter of mothers and 'little snakes', ie Palestinian children so the 'can't bear more of those 'little snakes'. That right there could incite violence and anyone with a fraction of intelligence ought to face reality, when people's mothers and children become targets for extinction, it is human nature to try to protect them, especially when they those words becoming reality. They have zero obligation to react by submitting to such egregious proposals from an elected official of the very country that is in the process of killing innocents. Hopefully they are more restrained that we were after 9/11.
gopiscrap
(23,757 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Hopefully they will stay strong against the Hamas trying to kill them.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)It is despicable what Hamas is doing to this great group of folks. Hamas needs to be defeated at all cost and Israel is stepping up to the plate to do so.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)~blinks~
At all costs? Do the Palestinian lives lost even cross your mind?
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Constant missiles coming thei way. Have you read the history of these folks? It is atrocious. I just hope our financial aide gets to Israel soon and I hope it is enough.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)What Israel is doing is even more atrocious.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)What Hamas is doing is atrocious. It does not matter if the bombs don't end up killing Israeli's. They have to use their technology which is expensive to HOPE that it stops the ongoing missiles heading their way. I hope they win this one for sure.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)comparing the behavior of the Israelis toward the Palestinians to the "N" word.
cali
(114,904 posts)If one is going to make that comparison it should be explained not thrown out like a petrol bomb. A better comparison would be to the U.S. use of military force in various places; like the use of drones that have killed so many children and civilians in Pakistan and other places.
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I didn't see the hidden "N word" post, so I can't comment on that, but I/P is not just about civilian casualties. It is also about the occupation and denial of the rights of citizenship and/or statehood.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)"Auschwitz existed within history, not outside of it. The main lesson I learned there is simple: We Jews should never, ever become like our tormentors -- not even to save our lives. Even at Auschwitz, I sensed that such a moral downfall would render my survival meaningless.
Like most German Jews, I was raised in a secular and humanist tradition that was more antagonistic than sympathetic towards the Zionist enterprise. Since 1967 it has become obvious that political Zionism has one monolithic aim: Maximum land in Palestine with a minimum of Palestinians on it. This aim is pursued with an inexcusable cruelty as demonstrated during the assault on Gaza. The cruelty is explicitly formulated in the Dahiye doctrine of the military and morally supported by the Holocaust religion.
I am pained by the parallels I observe between my experiences in Germany prior to 1939 and those suffered by Palestinians today. I cannot help but hear echoes of the Nazi mythos of "blood and soil" in the rhetoric of settler fundamentalism which claims a sacred right to all the lands of biblical Judea and Samaria. The various forms of collective punishment visited upon the Palestinian people -- coerced ghettoization behind a "security wall"; the bulldozing of homes and destruction of fields; the bombing of schools, mosques, and government buildings; an economic blockade that deprives people of the water, food, medicine, education and the basic necessities for dignified survival -- force me to recall the deprivations and humiliations that I experienced in my youth. This century-long process of oppression means unimaginable suffering for Palestinians."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hajo-meyer/an-ethical-tradition-betr_b_438660.html
malaise
(268,949 posts)It is a very important comment by a genuine victim.
Thanks for posting.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Just so sad.
cali
(114,904 posts)and misusing the term does not help. In fact, quite the opposite. Genocide has a specific meaning. The constant misuse of the term, leaches meaning from it. By your standards, there are literally dozens, if not hundreds of genocides ongoing. Furthermore, using the term wrongly, is an act of demonization, something I am strongly opposed to and see far too much of here.
Btw, President Obama who you are loath to see criticized and invariably defend on everything, expressed strong support for Israel on Friday. Again. His expression of strong support for Israel's military action makes his words about avoiding civilian casualties, hollow.
malaise
(268,949 posts)It is genocide. Particular groups don't get to own words.
You should read my posts more carefully. All American Presidents are hawks. Some are more hawkish than others. Obama is wrong on Israel, but other than Carter who exactly is an honest broker here. John Kerry's comments on Israel are even worse than Bill Clintons.
You call it what you like - I call it genocide. I'm sick of hearing about dead Palestinians.
And yes there has been a lot genocide on this planet. Ask the relatives of those million dead Iraqis - ask the relatives of those in Chile, Argentina, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, ask me about the millions slaughtered for Western capitalism during the slave trade. Ask others about their relatives' who were slaughtered for some stupid belief about some god or the other which n reality boil down to control of people and a money making scam known as religion.
You don't get to pick and choose who gets to use which word. Sorry. What is going on in Gaza is genocide.
And please find a post showing that I am loathed to see Obama criticized. You are the one who said he would lose the election and sure supported him over Rmoney.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
noun: genocide; plural noun: genocides
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.
synonyms: mass murder, mass homicide, massacre;
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=genocide
Ed Suspicious
(8,879 posts)cali
(114,904 posts)Guess what? words have meaning. The term genocide has a specific meaning both in common usage and in international legal terms. I've read your posts- carefully and far too many are just sloppy, careless with language. I'm sick of people who can't bother to use language and your oft repeated comment that all Presidents are hawks is inane and apologist junk.
Funny out of all the genocides you mentioned that you just couldn't bring yourself to mention the genocide of the Jews.
Sorry. YOU don't get to make up the definition of words. At least not without being called on making shit up just because you feel it's appropriate.
And yeah, you sure have objected to Obama being criticized.
magical thyme
(14,881 posts)gen·o·cide
/ˈjenəˌsīd/
noun
noun: genocide; plural noun: genocides
the deliberate killing of a large group of people, especially those of a particular ethnic group or nation.
synonyms: mass murder, mass homicide, massacre;
https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=genocide
hack89
(39,171 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)malaise
(268,949 posts)but I won't hold my breath
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)Keep it together he went full steam ahead.
Response to malaise (Original post)
Name removed Message auto-removed
Rhinodawg
(2,219 posts)1. if Israel were engaging in genocide, they really suck at it....the Palestinian population has doubled since 1970
2.Some unusual genocide...they text , call and leaflet Palestinians in buildings that house misslies and tell them to get out.
3. they continue endless trucks of food and medical aid to enter Gaza.... even as hundreds of rockets leave Gaza to mindlessly try to kill innocent Israelis.
4. Israel continues to treat injured Palestinians ...they same way they treated injured Syrians in their civil war .( one Syrian woman gave birth in Israel and the baby is technically an Israeli)
5. They practically begged Hamas to stop the bombing for 10 days...after 1500 rockets... before having no choice but to act. (that's genocide , huh?)
6. Hamas could have accepted 2 different ceasefires, both backed by the arab league, and ended it. ( instead they put their people at risk and by admitting they need those kids to be human sheilds)
When someone accuses Israel engaging in genocide , I really wonder whether there is another ulterior motive by those making those accusations.
sunnystarr
(2,638 posts)but a picture is worth a thousand words. I'm not sure what one would call this:
cali
(114,904 posts)by making life nigh on unbearable- should come into play.
with that more than genocide. Hundreds of French Jews imigrated to Israel, now just where will they put them? More settlements, more trouble.
peacebird
(14,195 posts)sunnystarr
(2,638 posts)Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)The Arab states spent decades trying to conquer Israel and finally gave up after failing multiple times. Israel is not at fault for the fact that Nasser wanted to drive them into the sea.
The settlements are a different story as those were established once the Arab states gave up. An independent Palestinian state should'e been established in the 1980's.
4now
(1,596 posts)or just plain murder.
Take your choice.
NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)It won't stop many from claiming that the Israelis are like the Nazis, though.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Interesting. I have just started to pay more attention to the I/P situation, but it does seem to me that Israel is judged unfairly harshly, while Hamas is pretty much given a pass.
suffragette
(12,232 posts)Putting him in charge of mediating peace in the Middle East has never made any sense to me. He's been in that post since leaving office.
Looks like he is more interested in making buckets of money from his Middle East consulting business and stirring more shit up than doing anything to actually mediate there.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/02/guardian-view-money-power-transparency
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jun/27/tony-blair-conflict-interests-middle-east
Edit to add: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/26/tony-blair-new-labour-hero-political-embarrassment-murdoch
malaise
(268,949 posts)Putting a war criminal in charge of peace never makes sense.
It pretty much exposes the West's position on this mess.
suffragette
(12,232 posts)The situation has become worse there rather than improving.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/nov/08/tony-blair-kazakhstan-human-rights-role
It begs the question of what his role and goals actually are.
I added another link to my previous reply. That article is definitely worth the read.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)Like Boosh.
suffragette
(12,232 posts)He's been the Quartet's envoy for 7 years now.
He consults for a range of countries and corporations, from JP Morgan to Azerbaijan, in areas from finances to gas/oil pipelines to human rights and peace.
malaise
(268,949 posts)<snip>
Gaza crisis: Barack Obama and UN call for immediate ceasefire
Israel launches fresh air strikes after bloodiest day
UN security council holds emergency meeting
John Kerry flies to Cairo to seek peace formula
Growing humanitarian crisis as power and water affected
US President Barack Obama has called for an "immediate ceasefire" between Israel and Hamas as the death toll among Palestinians in the Gaza Strip reached 508.
Israeli continued its assault on the neighbourhood of Shujai'iya on Monday, where bombardment and fierce fighting on the ground between Israeli troops and Hamas militants on Sunday left shattered streets littered with bodies after Israeli forces subjected it to an intense bombardment.
At least 120 Palestinians were killed on Sunday in Shujai'iya, a third of them women and children. Thirteen Israeli soldiers were also killed on the same day, in the heaviest loss of life for the Israeli military in years, two of them US citizens.
Mounting international pressure for a ceasefire came amid continuing violence in Gaza. Overnight, Israeli strikes hit Gaza City, and the south and centre of the coastal enclave, home to 1.8 million people.
Enthusiast
(50,983 posts)suffragette
(12,232 posts)The U.S. Foreign Minister John Kerry called Brende on Saturday night and the two agreed that Norway should be more active to get the parties to agree on a ceasefire, writes NTB.
- We discussed the cycle of violence in the Middle East in general and the deterioration particularly in Gaza. The U.S. is very keen to establish a ceasefire and we were discussing how we can best contribute to this, he said.
Brende also noted that for Norway it is a totally unacceptable situation for the civilians in Gaza.
In the frame of this initiative, Brendese, as head of the donor group for the Palestinia, held an important meeting in Doha with UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon, the Middle East Quartet envoy Tony Blair and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas on Sunday.
Interesting that Blair had been a busy bee in meeting with Egypt in June and July, first apparently to strike a deal about consulting with them on finances, then about negotiating cease fire.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/jul/02/tony-blair-advise-egypt-president-sisi-economic-reform
Seumas Milne
The Guardian, Wednesday 2 July 2014 09.11 EDT
Tony Blair to advise Egypt president Sisi on economic reform
Former PM criticised over link to United Arab Emirates-funded programme that promises lucrative 'business opportunities'
http://online.wsj.com/articles/death-toll-in-gaza-hits-121-1405154706
Updated July 12, 2014 11:03 p.m. ET
Egypt Leader Meets Blair in Effort to End Conflict
Israeli-Palestinian Hostilities Continue for Fifth Day, With Palestinian Death Toll Topping 150
malaise
(268,949 posts)siding with Israel at the UNSC.
Kerry could also ask Jimmy Carter for help since he's the only one not afraid to speak the truth to Israel
-------------------------------------------------
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/general-article/carter-peace/
The high point of Jimmy Carter's presidency occurred on Monday, September 18, 1978. While Egyptian President Anwar Sadat and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin looked on from the balcony, Carter briefed a joint session of Congress on the success of their thirteen-day summit at Camp David, Maryland. Stopping twenty-five times for applause, he described the first peace treaty between Israel and one of its Arab neighbors, as well as a framework for further progress toward peace in the Middle East. "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be the children of God," an emotional Carter intoned, capping two weeks of high-risk diplomacy that ended in historic achievement.
It's difficult to imagine any other American president doing what Carter did at Camp David. Most would not even have tried, and Carter's capacity for hard work, mastery of detail, moral integrity and just plain stubbornness all came into play. Though he would receive little domestic political benefit, it established Carter as a top global statesman and has served as the inspiration for much of his work since leaving office.
The Unstable Middle East
When Jimmy Carter entered the White House in 1977, the situation in the Middle East was highly unstable, the product of four wars since the establishment of Israel on May 14, 1948. A formal state of war still existed between Israel and its neighbors, including Egypt, bent on reclaiming the Sinai territory seized by the Israelis in 1967. Millions of Palestinian Arabs chafed under Israeli control in the West Bank and Gaza territories, also annexed during the Six Day War in 1967. Many observers -- President Carter included -- considered the Middle East the most likely flashpoint for a superpower war between the United States and the Soviet Union.
Although the political benefits were slight, the Camp David agreement was Carter's most important presidential accomplishment, and a shining moment in the Middle East peace process. "There will never be a history of the Middle East written without Jimmy Carter's name in the index," says historian Douglas Brinkley. "Camp David is the beginning of a process that still goes on. And a hundred years from now, two hundred years from now, people will be talking about the Camp David process, that began in those Maryland mountains."
suffragette
(12,232 posts)Choice for Quartet envoy. As you so aptly reminded us in your post, he actually has a successful record of mediating peace in the region.
And yet Blair the warhawk is ensconced in that position. And it all just keeps getting worse.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)A-Schwarzenegger
(15,596 posts)malaise
(268,949 posts)Oops!!!
Orrex
(63,203 posts)I mean, that's the standard response, so...
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)That isn't even debatable.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)With little resources and infrastructure. What do they think is going to happen? This reminds me a lot of what happened with the Native Americans at Wounded knee.
What would solve a lot of this is going back to the original borders and allowing the Palestinians to have a future.
LittleBlue
(10,362 posts)they would have realized the superior claim of the white man and just walked meekly off their land and onto reservations. They are expected to comply in a way that no people with any self-respect would consider.
greytdemocrat
(3,299 posts)This term is being thrown around way too much.
Hamas are a bunch of murdering scum that put their
rockets near the people they are supposedly "protecting".
I support Israel 100%.
McCamy Taylor
(19,240 posts)tritsofme
(17,376 posts)on both sides.
They should allow civilians to evacuate instead of using them as human shields.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)tritsofme
(17,376 posts)Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)malaise
(268,949 posts)Dead is dead
tritsofme
(17,376 posts)When a person is tied to the railroad tracks, who is at fault for their death? The train, or the person who tied them there?
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)tritsofme
(17,376 posts)It would signal the end of the Jewish state, an outcome desired by some.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Presumably, some Palestinians feel the same way about their state. If that's the case, then both sides have God on their side.
tritsofme
(17,376 posts)It only encourages more of the same. The difference being the intentional endangerment of the civilians by Hamas, and the warnings, leafletting, warning shots, ect, that the IDF sends to alert civilians in the area that a military target is being pursued.
Hamas intentionally consigns civilians to their death, while Israel seeks to take reasonable steps to prevent civilian casualties.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)My take is that both sides (as usual) claim to have a "just cause" for murder and atrocities. Both view the other side as murderers and both sides murder civilians. I cannot accept that Israeli or Palestinian lives are worth more or less than the other no matter who does the killing or for whatever, (inevitably) noble reason.
yeoman6987
(14,449 posts)Speechless. Long live Israel.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Chathamization
(1,638 posts)Russians who were defending those cities.
99Forever
(14,524 posts)As it always goes with warmongers that escalate violence as a "solution."
And where is our "leadership" in this inhuman war crime?
SwankyXomb
(2,030 posts)"Never again, unless we're doing it, then it's okay."
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)NaturalHigh
(12,778 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)we give them hundreds of millions every year.
http://fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RS22967.pdf
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)hack89
(39,171 posts)Hamas has to simultaneously dismantle their military infrastructure. Free access to Gaza must be given to UN inspectors to allow them to locate all the tunnels and bunkers - they then have to be destroyed. Then the rebuilding of the civilian infrastructure must be done under strict supervision to ensure that Hamas does not divert any resources to rebuild their military infrastructure.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)I hope this fighting ends soon.
riverwalker
(8,694 posts)T Shirt worn by IDF soldiers, showing pregnant Palestinian woman in gun sights.
I thought it must be a hoax, but it's not. It's real.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/idf-soldiers-anti-palestinian-t-shirts-are-tasteless-1.272712
http://news.sky.com/story/678761/israeli-army-t-shirts-mock-gaza-killings
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)mr blur
(7,753 posts)malaise
(268,949 posts)Sickening
Crunchy Frog
(26,579 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)clearly have them in a panic
Douglas Carpenter
(20,226 posts)spanone
(135,827 posts)4now
(1,596 posts)People drink, snack and pose for selfies against a background of explosions as Palestinian death toll mounts in ongoing offensive.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)KoKo
(84,711 posts)but, thanks for posting.
Hippo_Tron
(25,453 posts)Yes, this whole mess is a fucking tragic waste of human life. But not genocide by any stretch of the imagination.
Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)Sunlei
(22,651 posts)It is horrible the adjacent neighbor to Gaza strip, Egypt will not allow Pal. woman/children a small safe spot of Egypts land.