So, where is the proof that "rebels"/Russians shot down the plane?

[reorg]

Last edited Wed Jul 23, 2014, 11:08 AM - Edit history (4)

--- updated for more clarity ---


The Security Service of Ukraine says the "rebels" didn't have any missile launchers, so the Russians shipped them in at some point and spirited them away immediately after the accident.

According to the Ukraine spokesperson, the first hint that Russian Buk missile launchers had crossed the border to Ukraine came on 14 July from counterintelligence units in the field (19:25 into the video below). And in the early morning after the accident, 2 big trucks with missile launchers were allegely observed (3 more such trucks, one with launcher, a little later), crossing from Ukraine to Russia in the early morning of July 18 (4:20 into the video). For whatever purpose, the Security Service includes in its presentation some photos of trucks with Buk launchers. Some of them on their way through the Donetsk region (fields), some allegedly on their way from the launching site (Snizhne) to the Russian border.

Video Security Service presentation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=PWtH8AA42Fc#t=257


It has already been pointed out that one of those photos of run-away trucks was actually taken in Krasnoarmiysk, to the West of the area controlled by the DPR militants. The other photo that allegedly shows a truck on its way to Russia was taken at night, perhaps when "we clearly identified that on the 18 July at 2 in the morning in Luhansk region ... two big trucks ... on each one was a Buk missile system, on the first one there were 4 missiles, so it was not used, on the other one there were 3 missiles ..."?

Here are the two photos on the slide presented:
http://www.sbu.gov.ua/sbu/img/publishing/?id=129128


Now - how on earth is it possible that one of those two presented photos with trucks on their way to Russia (here with better resolution):



was apparently not taken in July but in March (note the clothes and the snow) at a "Yasinovataya Post" in Donetsk?
Video uploaded on March 17 by DPR militant which shows the exact same scene, weather conditions and lighting.

Another photo from the same scene posted on Facebook



on this Facebook page with yet another photo from that scene.


Must be some kind of mistake, I guess.


Security Service site with slides mentioned
http://www.sbu.gov.ua/sbu/control/en/publish/article?art_id=129116&cat_id=35317

Reminder:

On Sunday, 6 April 2014, between 1,000 and 2,000[10] pro-Russia protesters attended a rally in Donetsk pushing for a Crimea-style referendum on independence from Ukraine.[41] The proposed referendum has no status-quo option.[42] After which, 200 separatists (according to Igor Dyomin, a spokesman for Donetsk local police, about 1,000[10]) pro-Russian protesters stormed and took control of the first two floors of the building, breaking down doors and smashing windows. The administration headquarters were empty, with only guards inside, as government officials would not work there on Sundays.[41] The separatists demanded that if an extraordinary session was not held by officials, announcing a referendum to join Russia, they would declare unilateral control by forming a "People's Mandate" at noon on 7 April, and dismiss all elected council members and MPs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People%27s_Republic#Foundations

But the sneaky Russians had already transported Buk missile launchers in the middle of March, just to make sure the "rebels" could later shoot down planes at high altitudes?

[msongs]

1. the blur in the large pic conveniently covers up the vehicle # (312 in the first pic) nt

[reorg]

2. you think that's on purpose?

The launcher with this number has apparently been identified as Ukrainian:

Don't know what to make of that. Uploaded on March 9

Google translation of video description:

Gorlovki resident, met a whole convoy of military equipment. Experts estimate that anti-missile systems "Buk". That such complexes in Georgia in 2008 successfully shot down several Russian aircraft.

[geek tragedy]

3. Russian government has already admitted there were Buks in rebel-controlled territory near the scene

of the wreckage at the time a missile shot the plane down.

The question that has to be answered is why the missile system appeared in the area controlled by the local militia forces shortly before the catastrophe, he stated.

http://rt.com/news/174412-malaysia-plane-russia-ukraine/

So, you're kind of wasting your time by trying to deflect blame from the murderers here.

The rebels did it, and everyone who isn't highly motivated to play dumb knows it.

[reorg]

4. in case you are referring to the Defense Ministry briefing

- you should watch it through the end, where they pose a number of questions about the OTHER photo in the slide mentioned above.

[geek tragedy]

5. they admitted the key fact, Their dishonest attempts to spin it are not relevant to anything

One could safely tune them out when they claimed the SU-25 was at 10,000M in altitude.

All you guys have to counter is stupid innuendo and nit-picking over morsels of something the Ukrainians said.

You got nothing that points the finger away from your team.

At some point the terrorist thugs in Donbasss will be extradited to the Hague, or Russia will get the treatment it deserves, as a state-sponsor of terrorism.

[reorg]

6. so, you think that the pictures provided at the press conference

were accidently confused?

How is it nitpicking when the official statement by the Ukrainian government illustrates its claims (Buk launcher observed in the night of July 18) with an image that was taken in March, and probably shows a Ukrainian launcher instead of a Russian one?

[geek tragedy]

9. There was a Buk in rebel territory right

where the plane got shot down, when the plane got shot down.

Both the US and Russia have said so.

Please do not insult our intelligence by pretending that a missile system in territory controlled by the rebels was in the possession of anyone but the rebels.

[reorg]

10. says the Russians?

Since when are you such an RT lover that nothing else matters to you than what Russia reports?

I'll give you that, at least they presented the pictures, and pictures that cannot be shown to be crap within days.

[geek tragedy]

11. The Russians are validating what the Americans said.

It serves as an admission.

Rebels shoot down several Ukrainian planes with surface-to-air missiles between 7/12 and 7/17.
Ukraine has not fired on a single plane once, since they own all the airplanes in the area.
MH17 flies over rebel territory from the west (Ukrainian government territory)
There is a Buk missile in the rebels' position in that area
MH17 gets blown up by a missile
Rebels brag about it thinking it was a Ukrainian plane, posting real time video and photos from the scene.

None of the above facts are really contested, let alone dependent upon Ukrainian intelligence.

You guys are really not looking so good trying to deny the obvious.

Rather amazing that the Russians had all that detail but not one of their systems registered the actual missile, huh?

[reorg]

13. The Russian defense ministry collects radar data

and presented what they have, I suppose. I have no clue whatsoever if a missile registers on these radars, do you?

And why would the Russians keep such data under wraps, didn't they provide you with all you need for your conspiracy theory?

The planes shot down in the days prior to 7/17 were hit by shoulder-fired missiles at a much lower range. That the Ukrainians and the DPR militants agree upon, BTW. The Russian data suggest that the missile launcher came from a Ukrainian base. I don't know how well the militants can secure "their" territory - didn't seem to work all that well in the first days at the crash site, did it? Even though it was just a few square miles where the debris was spread. So, who knows who, accidently or even on purpose, who knows, shot down that plane. I hear there are several private armies by oligarchs such as Mr Kolomoyskyi roaming the region.

[geek tragedy]

14. The talking points from the Kremlin suggest

it was the Ukrainians. No facts, data, or honest commentators are suggesting that.

The Russian military briefers claimed a plane with a ceiling of 7,000m was at 10,000m.

And they claimed Russia has not been arming the separatists. Surely you are too intelligent to believe such an obvious lie.

[reorg]

15. "briefly", he said

and you know more about Russian planes than a Russian airforce general?

http://en.uos.ua/produktsiya/aviakosmicheskaya-tehnika/84-cy-25

[geek tragedy]

19. I know more about telling the truth than the Russian

government.

[reorg]

21. that may well be true

but on this particular point of military expertise you were wrong.

[reorg]

16. No, the point is that a thorough investigation is needed

before people like you herd everybody else into accepting the politically most convenient version, even if it isn't true.

[geek tragedy]

20. Too bad the primary suspects had days to tamper

with the crime scene. They and their apologists will then point to a lack of evidence on the ground and say "no conclusive proof."

[reorg]

22. do you believe they removed the shrapnel holes

and everything that may have remained of a missile? I think you are overestimating what you elsewhere dismissed as a ragtag bunch of miserable drunks?

[geek tragedy]

23. Yes, I believe they did remove anything resembling

a fragment from the missile. Shrapnel holes just show that it was a missile, not which missile.
And their embedded Russian advisors would certainly help.

[reorg]

24. a pre-emptive rationalization in case no proof can be established?

CNN: "Experts say that this crash investigation is unprecedented due to the site's immense size"

[geek tragedy]

26. Common sense. nt

[reorg]

27. well, "based on ... common sense"

and as "we saw in social media afterwards", the only proof presented so far that Russians sent Buk launchers over the border and spirited them away afterwards is rather specious:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025273762

Evidence from social media and “common sense” indicate Ukrainian militia shot down the Malaysian Airlines plane, the State Department says. The US also cites its own intelligence which it has refrained from revealing to the public.

http://rt.com/news/174620-ukraine-crash-us-evidence/

[geek tragedy]

29. every fact points towards Team Russia on this one.

Russia admits Buk missile was in the territory controlled by the militia, right where the plane was shot down, when it was shot down.

And, simple logic says if only one side is shooting at airplanes or has any motive to shoot at airplanes, if an airplane gets shot down then the likely suspect is the guys who shoot at airplanes.

no facts point towards anyone but the rebels. there is no evidentiary support for an alternative hypothesis

[reorg]

31. no, Russia has proof and actually hands it over to the investigation

whereas Ukraine confiscates recordings and the US haven't let anything slip except references to "social media" and so forth.

What is your take, BTW, to the point made in the OP? Do you consider it a distraction when it is pointed out that "proof", even if only offered for illustrative purposes - who knows, but OTOH they could have just presented pictures out of a catalogue - turns out not to be what it purports to be?

You obviously don't care about the credibility of the Ukraine Secret Service. Why not admit it? Why do you distract from this fact with your repetitive chatter?

[geek tragedy]

32. Russia has proof that there were high-altitude missiles in rebel territory right

where the plane was shot down. Just like the US and Ukrainians have been saying.

But, Russia then insults the world's intelligence by claiming missiles in rebel territory did not belong to the rebels. Only an idiot would believe such a story.

Russia offers speculation about where the missile came from. If Russia cannot say where the missile came from, Russia has no proof of it coming from anywhere.

Your argument is a silly distraction, a quibbling over a minor detail.

[reorg]

33. the credibility of the Ukraine Security Service is a minor detail?

Okay, thanks for finally admitting what you think about them. BTW, I share your assessment that one shouldn't pay all that much attention to what they present. Their claims are chaff, nobody needs them and they are already forgotten a few days after they were made.

The satellite photos from Russia appear to be helpful, as you admit, so let them check out what happened at this launching site where suddenly a launcher went missing.

[geek tragedy]

35. a single photo of a rocket launcher

is not going to break this case.

certainly the US will provide some evidence in due course, what they are doing right now is forcing the Russians to show their cards.

[reorg]

36. break what case?

I only posted what I found about one photo, the Russians at their briefing already pointed out the problem with the other.

So, no photo of Buk transports to the border at all, sorry. They claim they have evidence that three trucks crossed the border. But everybody can go to social websites, search for photos of rocket launchers, cut away the snow and winter clothes and then pretend we have proof how the Russians spirited the launchers away on July 18.

We'll see what the US come up with. Hopefully not something as embarrassing as under previous administrations.

[geek tragedy]

37. what really matters is that the launcher was there when the plane

was shot down by a missile, let's not play games

[reorg]

38. I agree that the Ukrainians should stop playing games

with fake pictures and either show real proof or shut up until the site has been thoroughly searched for evidence.

And, hopefully, nobody attempts to plant something like they did in Lockerbie.

[joshcryer]

7. I don't see anything claiming the "entering" pic is July.

If you read the FB page the commentators seem to suggest it was acquired in March.

If you read the page that the slide comes from you can see that they make no mention of the time the "entering" pic is made: http://www.sbu.gov.ua/sbu/control/uk/publish/article?art_id=129099&cat_id=39574

[reorg]

8. there is no "entering" picture, they say they observed

trucks leaving during the night and present two images as proof. One of those images is the photo taken in March in Donetsk.

So you think the missile laucher entered (from Russia?) in March and passed through Yasinovataya/Donetsk on its way to be used in July to shoot commercial airliners out of the sky? Why then didn't the spokesperson say so? He explicitly states the first hint that Buk launchers were in the possession of the militants came on July 14. And I guess that means the security service doesn't search Facebook and VK pages?

[joshcryer]

12. OK, I see that.

Yes it appears they don't know how to use reverse image search. Poorly done analysis.

[Puzzledtraveller]

17. What kind of missile would have had to be used?

Considering the altitude and speed of the aircraft. I was wondering if smaller, more portable rocket systems can bring down a jet flying at 30k feet or so.

[reorg]

18. According to everything that was said, not shoulder-fired missiles

at least not the Russian ones listed here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-portable_air-defense_systems#Missile_models

with a maximum reach of up to 23,000 ft (7,000 m). That's why the altitude above 32000 ft was still considered safe.

[malaise]

25. I welcome all versions of what happened

In time truth will out.

[KoKo]

39. Same here...in time truth will out...n/t

[LordGlenconner]

28. ...

[Karmadillo]

30. Thanks for posting this. Let's hope a genuine investigation can move beyond

the propaganda spin and find out what really happened. The Russians have already released radar and satellite data. Let's hope the US will be willing to do the same.

[woo me with science]

34. Yup. Reccing not because I know what happened,

but because of all the blatant propaganda pretending to.

[Karmadillo]

40. Kick

[reorg]

41. just wanted to add that RT has finally picked up on these findings

by various "internet sleuths" all over the world, as yet only in Russian, though:

http://russian.rt.com/article/42071

[Separation]

42. So how are theses theories holding up!

[reorg]

43. What theories?

I have not heard about any explanations why this photo was used.

The Ukraine government has probably other sorrows right now and the US have apparently discarded this part of the mountain of evidence.

[Separation]

44. So, where is the proof that "rebels"/Russians shot down the plane?

I think it's been pretty much been established who shot it down now.

[reorg]

45. Finally, I found it!