Jet Wreckage Bears Signs of Impact by Supersonic Missile, Analysis Shows

[icymist]

A piece of wreckage from the Malaysia Airlines jet downed over eastern Ukraine last week shows damage, including shrapnel holes and blistered paint, that is consistent with a hit from a fragmenting warhead, according to consultants with IHS-Jane’s. Credit Noah Sneider

A piece of wreckage from the Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200 that was shot down in eastern Ukraine last week bears telltale marks of small pieces of high-velocity shrapnel that apparently crippled the jet in flight. Riddled with these perforations and buffeted by a blast wave as it flew high above the conflict zone, the plane then most likely sheared apart.

The wreckage, photographed by two reporters for The New York Times in a field several miles from where the largest concentration of the Boeing’s debris settled, suggests that the destruction of the aircraft was caused by a supersonic missile that apparently exploded near the jet as it flew 33,000 feet above the ground, according to an analysis of the photographs by IHS Jane’s, the defense consultancy

The damage, including the shrapnel holes and blistered paint on a panel of the destroyed plane’s exterior, is consistent with the effects of a fragmenting warhead carried by an SA-11 missile, known in Russian as a Buk, the type of missile that American officials have said was the probable culprit in the downing of the plane.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/europe/jet-wreckage-bears-signs-of-impact-by-supersonic-missile-analysis-shows.html?partner=rss&emc=rss&smid=tw-nytimesworld&_r=1

[longship]

1. Well, I think that the whole world already knows that.

The deal is that whether or not the guilty party or parties will be able to be determined, or held accountable. Like the 1983 flight 007, I somehow doubt it.

Putin is being an utter fucking jerk here. And the Netherlands PM's strong words the other day were right on target, Putin has had his last warning. President Obama has alluded to similar tiring of Putin's equivocations.

Something has to give.

[sabrina 1]

2. 'Putin has had his last warning'. Are you advocating for WW111 then?

[longship]

3. Well, that's basically what the Netherlands PM said.

I am not advocating for anything but accountability, and that has gone by the wayside here. And I very well remember the Cuban Missile Crisis, so no, I would not be advocating for World War III. We were fucking scared out of our wits back in Oct., 1962. I was 14 at the time. Although this does not rise to that level, Russia is acting thuggish here and they cannot be allowed to get away with it.

[sabrina 1]

6. Why? We were 'acting thuggish' during the Bush years, and we got away with it.

We killed over a million Iraqis, which is pretty thuggish, and told anyone who tried to stop us, see Russia, China, France and Germany eg, to go to hell. We tortured and maimed and stole and killed at will. That's pretty thuggish.

It seems kind of arrogant for what the world views as a very thuggish nation now, sadly, to be pointing fingers elsewhere. We haven't yet taken care of our own War Criminals, in fact we REVERE them here, see Cheney calling Obama the 'worst president in history on our MSM eg. Because Cheney sure is itching for war, ANYWHERE. Along with all the rest of the neocons.

Sorry, I haven't changed my views, back when we were heading for war with Iraq and all that 'evidence' was presented, I didn't trust it, I knew the warmongers were desperate to start bombing Iraq.

I was called a Saddam lover and a traitor etc back then, but I was right. IF we had had a real investigation and a real News Media, there would have been no war. I consider this rhetoric to be extremely dangerous because we've been there before. We have NO CLUE who did this, all we have are people with an agenda telling us we do. Deja Vu, sorry if some of us remember.

Eg, we have been told that the Ukraine rebels had sent the black boxes to Russia. Outrage ensued, knee jerk outrage.

It seems that the rebels have turned those black boxes over to Malaysia. So we were lied to ALREADY.

Someone wants to start a war and I will continue to do as we did re Iraq, trust nothing until it has been verified. This btw, HAS been verified by multiple sources. So why do you think we were lied to about that? To produce as much outrage as possible, and certainly worked unfortunately.

[longship]

7. Non sequitur.

What Bush did or did not do has nothing to do with this.

And, that would be a big fat NO, neither President Obama nor the Netherlands PM want war with Russia. Diplomacy uses language carefully, and Putin undoubtedly now knows that he is in a pickle diplomatically. Nobody is talking about WWIII, except for maybe some here who are over reacting.

This is a serious situation, and the international outrage is high. But nobody is thinking that it is WWIII.

[sabrina 1]

9. Well, European and American outrage is high. But the rest of the world

sees these things differently. I have not heard eg, any outrage, other than what is expected when a tragedy like this occurs, sadness expressed and condolences from Latin America, or Asia, China, African leaders, eg weigh in on Putin.

Perhaps it would wise to simply wait and make sure there really is a thorough investigation, because this IS a serious issue, innocent people have died, another Malaysian plane was lost with more innocent deaths. And no one knows still what happened to that plane.

These are human tragedies which should be the first concern of any decent human being. Not using it for political purposes. It makes those doing so look very bad, cold, heartless and selfish.

If I were a victim's loved I would be outraged at what is going on. I want to KNOW without a doubt who was responsible. So I put myself in their shoes and wonder how they must feel to see the political chess game being played with my loved one's tragic death. It would only add to the heartbreak.

May they RIP and their loved ones left behind find some measure of peace with time.

I agree with you that Obama does not want to go war with Russia, which is why WE must not fall for all the rhetoric and propaganda. That won't help him fight off the old cold warriors and the neocons, who are itching for war, will it?

[longship]

10. See my other response, RE, Netherlands PM strong words.

I got them wrong. He said, "last chance". Pretty strong language. There is a link.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-20/an-dutch-pm-says-putin-has-one-more-chance/5609646

In case you missed my other response.

Best regards, my friend.

[sabrina 1]

12. Thanks, I responded below, regards to you also.

[longship]

8. Here's a link about Netherlands PM comments.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-07-20/an-dutch-pm-says-putin-has-one-more-chance/5609646

He said this is Putin's "last chance". Pretty strong language from a small country. But what do you think? That The Netherlands is going to launch a nuke attack? They don't even have them.

Sorry, my friend. This is strong diplomacy language, saying "Putin, you have fucked up badly, and we know it."

[sabrina 1]

11. I heard his remarks, he was reacting to the latest 'stories' he had heard,

eg, that the bodies of the victims were being disrespected. And, airc, there was a photo circulating claiming to be of a 'heartless, Ukraine rebel, posing with a child's toy, claiming he was holding it up as a 'trophy'. I can only imagine how that would affect people, especially the Netherlands who lost so many people.

However since he said those words, it has been revealed that that photo was a still from a video. The video has since been released. What actually happened was the man in the photo was speaking with reporters. It appears they asked him a question, he bent down and picked up the child's toy showing it to the reporters, he then went down on his knees and placed it on the ground gently, blessing himself as a sign of respect. Hopefully the PM has seen the video rather than the manipulated photo.

This is why I believe NOTHING until more information is added. And multiple sources verify everything. What a terrible thing to do, to manipulate what was in fact a respectful gesture towards a victim, into a 'callous' incident that could only add to the heart break of the victims.

The Netherlands PM has no power to start a war, and from what I know of that country, that is the last thing they would want to do. They are not a warmongering nation and would not want to see millions, and that is what it would be, of innocent people die.

I'm glad you are opposed to war and I hope every rational person will vehemently oppose such a horrific outcome. I am glad it is President Obama and not Bush who is in office right now.

[longship]

14. Absolutely well said.

I could not wrote it better than you have.

I hope we have an understanding here. It is so difficult to determine ones intent or ones opinion online.

As always,
longship

[sabrina 1]

16. Thank you for a very civil discussion. I believe we do have an understanding, neither of us

wants a war and I do not believe that President Obama wants one either. I remember the NY State AG when he was under pressure to sign an agreement with the Big Banks who had wrongfully foreclosed on so many people. He refused to sign it and was being attacked and smeared for his courageous stand. He wanted at least a clause in the agreement stating that the victims of these banks would still have the right to sue even if they accepted the pittance, a few hundred dollars as it turned, they would be offered.

Protestors from OWS went to support his stand, a huge crowd. He came out to meet with them and told them that their show of support had given him courage, and would be noted by those who were attacking him, 'I need you now' he said. In the end he got what he wanted, however reluctant they were because the people's outrage, not just his.

That is how I feel about the President right now. He is no doubt being pressured right now, I saw Cheney eg, by all the warmongers. But if an overwhelming number of people were to let him know they do not want any more war, that would help him imo. Which is why I simply will not participate in the sowing of the seeds of hatred for the 'enemy'. That is how they start, rousing up the anger to get the support they need.

Thanks again for the discussion, we can only hope that wiser heads will prevail this time.

[longship]

18. That is what also happened in Oct 62.

People were scared out of their wits. And wiser heads prevailed, both Kennedy and Khrushchev. Neither one wanted war, it took both of their cool heads to stop it. In spite of provocations, they communicated through back channels to put an end to what would have been a horrible outcome.

[sabrina 1]

19. Yes, that is a great example of how war can be avoided if both parties don't want war.

Thanks for the reminder. Imagine if it had not been Kennedy back then, the world would be a very different place today.

Like Krushchev, I doubt Putin is crazy enough to want a war either. But we have people here who do. And there also I'm sure. I hope we also have enough to help this president ward off the war mongers.

[Igel]

20. People constantly get "wrong" something even Ukr and Russ posters complain about.

If there's a missile strike by a plane or a border crossing incident you see a photo.

It has no caption.

You see another missile strike or a border crossing and you see the same photo.

And for the third instance you see the same photo.

Now, when you see a caption that says, "Border crossing incident near Izvaryne, 18 July 2014" then there's a claim. Otherwise it's like talking about President Obama and using a stock photo. In the US, we label them as a stock photo--perhaps from Getty, perhaps from someplace else. There are scores of newspapers in Ukr. Every town has a few. Every oblast has a few more. Then there are the regional and national ones. The population's 1/8th or so that of the US. A lot of those sources are run on a shoe-string and are the worst offenders. The national media are better about using photos from the scene than the smaller ones, but serious problems come up when the story goes from small-time source to regional to national to international. At some point a caption is added that is just plain inappropriate. (Not that this doesn't happen at the lowest level).

The "look at the brave fighter holding up a teddy bear" photo accompanied a story that claimed people on the ground heard fighters boasting about kiddie-toy trophies and wads of foreign currency. But there wasn't a caption saying, "Here's the fighter mentioned in the story."

It messes up everybody, because sometimes the photos really are uncaptioned and directly related to the story. Sometimes they're uncaptioned and only servce as a generic visual "topic".

During the so-called referendum for independence or whatever the same picture kept showing up for stories set in different towns. Then during the presidential vote the same photo kept showing up. It was "people voting"--the topic of the story. No caption. It's even better when you read a story about a border incursion by two Russian choppers (today's story, actually) and you see stock photos from Jane's or Wiki. The pictures aren't true, they're truthy. (Remember truthiness?)

It's not what the reader infers, it's a combination of what the writer states and wants the reader to infer. In many cases the Ukr and even Ru press seem to assume that the reader needs a visual to focus his otherwise blurred attention. Unless the caption is very specific, I read the story first and then figure out how the photo is related to the story.

I have no doubt that in some cases the writer assumes that the haphazard reader will just look at the pictures instead of reading the words. But posting the same picture for different stories is a frequent gripe in the comments. "Can't you get a new picture?" "Why did you post the same picture for these stories?" "This picture isn't the incident you write about."

The "fighters brag about trophies" story was reported out of Alchevsk and picked up by a pro-unity shoe-string source in Luhansk that had no way of getting to Alchevsk. IIRC, the informant overheard the fighter brag in a supermarket parking lot to somebody else and joined the circle of people he was bragging to. "If you want, I'll buy you some" toys or clothes, the informant reported, saying he pulled out a wad of foreign currency. That's the story. No video. No photos. No reason for the photo to have the perspective it had or the background it had or for the fighter to be wearing what he had on. Read the story and you have to wonder why the photo went with the story. From there it went regional and national. Hadn't realized it had made it international. The photo went from eye-candy "here's a topic" to "here's a picture from the scene."

You don't take your charter to a different monastery. When in Rome.

But above all, know your sources.

[KoKo]

22. Thanks for the report on the Video of the Ukranian holding up

the stuffed monkey which was a child's toy. The photo went all around as if he was holding up the monkey as a trophy or something. The full video shows his sadness as he crossed himself and gently laid the monkey down on the ground. It appears he was one of the rescuers and deeply moved with finding a child's toy in that devastation.

Yet a still of that video is used as an excuse for demonizing the Ukrainian rebels. As we've learned, from past experience, the first reports from any disaster are often used for propaganda purposes by media manipulation for special interests.

I'm still waiting for that video of the Ukrainian rebels admitting to shooting down the plane to be verified. The one that John Kerry referred to saying ..."that Social Media shows"..... It may be real or not... but as with the child's stuffed toy....we need to be careful.

[Cha]

4. Just want to say thank you for your post, longship.

[longship]

5. Gees, you are welcome.

This situation is a bit of a clusterfuck. The measure of a person is how it is handled. Both the Netherlands PM and Barack Obama have used strong language in this affair. I approve of their messages. (So to speak )



My regards.

[Cha]

13. Best regards to you, longship..

I was thinking for a moment that you have Dutch Ancestry.. but, it's Scandinavian, right?

Yes, so true.. not what happens but how you handle it. Some events and crises are so out of our control but that's when how you handle it comes into, as you say, "show the measure of a person".

[longship]

15. Very good, Cha. Half Norge, half Suomi.

My father was Norwegian; my mother was Suomilainen.

(For those uneducated in Scandinavian countries, Finland is called Suomi in that country. A Finn is called a Suomilainen.)

And by the way, "sauna" is pronounced SAH-OO-NA, with the accent on the first syllable (as always in Finnish). One pronounces every letter, even when there are two vowels together. It is decidedly not SAWN-AH.

Love ya, Cha.

[Cha]

17. Mahalo for the refresher course with your Norwegian and Suomilianen heritage..

It's coming back to me now. I love learning about different people's ancestry.. and, that's way cool to learn that about "SAH-OO-Na"! I had been taking those since the 70s when I first learned what they were for in California. Now, no SAH-OO-Na is available but the heat in the summer time here is hot enough to emulate one and I had a good one today while getting my run in. I say that word a lot.

Love ya back, longship

[parkia00]

21. Picture of another wreckage showing the same thing.

This looks like the front of the plane right below the cockpit window frames you can see at the top of the wreckage. Some say this points to the missile exploding in front of the plane and basically wiping out the flight crew first. Some also say it points to the direction of the missile's flight as flying west towards the plane as it flew east across Ukraine.

[link:http://im.ft-static.com/content/images/b324fdf5-fb31-447b-9cd5-1500d2ecca8b.img|

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html