A hospital was shelled, killing and injuring staff and patients-defend this too

[malaise]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/21/gaza-hospital-shelling-air-strike-israel-idf
<snip>
A hospital was shelled, killing and injuring staff and patients, and up to 28 members of one family died in an air strike as Gaza endured another day of relentless bloodshed on Monday.

As heavy shelling and fighting on the ground continued, John Kerry, the US secretary of state, arrived in Egypt to seek a ceasefire that Barack Obama declared was needed immediately: "We don't want to see any more civilians killed," the US president said.

Kerry pledged that the US would provide $47m (£28m) in humanitarian aid to help Palestinians. He said: "Only Hamas now needs to make the decision to spare innocent civilians from this violence."

Israel was undertaking an "appropriate and legitimate effort" to defend itself but the consequences were of deep concern, Kerry said.

In Deir al-Balah in central Gaza, al-Aqsa hospital became the third to be struck in the 14-day conflict when three shells slammed into the intensive care unit, surgical and administrative areas. Five people were killed and 70 wounded, including about 30 medics, according to Gaza health officials. Ambulances tried to evacuate patients but were forced to turn back by continued shelling. Israel has claimed that Hamas hides weapons in hospitals.

--------------
There are no words

[cpwm17]

1. In the Lebanon War in the early 1980's

Israel hit about every hospital in southern Lebanon, often murdering hundreds at a time. Hospitals are some of the biggest targets in the area with the largest number of warm bodies to obliterate.

[magical thyme]

7. not to mention that by killing off the medical staff they can prevent

even more Palestinians from getting medical help well into the future. Kill one doctor, medic, emt, nurse, and who knows how many Palestinians will die due to lack of treatment.

It's just a gift that keeps on giving.

[hack89]

10. I call bullshit

I think you need to provide some links.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

13. Here ya go...

http://www.chomsky.info/books/fateful01.htm

[hobbit709]

17. His mind is made up, he doesn't want to be bothered by inconvenient facts.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

18. Figures...

There's a lot of that going around...

[kelliekat44]

104. You could post 20 links and it wouldn't make a difference to some here. I remember when Arafat

called for International Observers and guess who rejected it?

[cpwm17]

141. I remember the news at the time

Israel kept hitting hospitals with body counts in the hundreds. And that was what was reported in our news. I have since found out that it was much worse in reality. That was what turned me against Israel. I didn't accept the bullshit excuses from the bigots.

Israel has been targeting ambulances and hospitals in this mass murder attack, as usual. Palestinian ambulance drivers have to be some of the bravest heroes in the world.


Destroyed ambulance in the neighborhood of Shuja’ieyh in eastern Gaza City.

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/massacre-shujaiyeh-shelters.html

Palestinian photojournalist Khaled Hamad, 25, was killed while riding with Red Crescent emergency responders, and medic Fouad Jaber, 28, was killed in the line of duty.

https://twitter.com/activestills/status/490822969103368192/photo/1

[hack89]

142. And the suicide bombings in buses and restaurants did not also turn you against Hamas?

why am I not surprised.

[cpwm17]

170. What a hypocrite

You are the one that is defending evil. Your physics is also very weak. Time moves forward, not backwards.

So Israel can brutalize, steal from, imprison, torture, and murder an oppressed population and suddenly the oppressed population becomes legal cannon fodder if someone strikes back? That sounds like a convenient scam. Authoritarians love that scam.

Israel's attack against Lebanon was to punish Lebanon for harboring the PLO since the Palestinian Nakba victims which were gaining political power there. Israel attacked the general population with indiscriminate bombing. Hospitals were convenient targets since Israel could extinguish more human beings with one strike than at just about any other place.

[hack89]

173. So suicide bombings are a legitimate form of self defense?

Be honest - don't hold back.

[snooper2]

172. where did you go?

[hack89]

174. Right here. Nt

[snooper2]

178. I looked again and you are gone!

no fair to hide in the closets that is against our rules

[hack89]

179. Off to hockey

Great way to spend a muggy evening.

[KittyWampus]

2. It's an outrage. That we blindly support the state of Israel while they bleet

it's all about their defense makes me sick.

[LuvNewcastle]

24. +1000

[dembotoz]

3. k and r

[Madmiddle]

4. Israel is a terrorist country.

Why Kerry or anyone in this country sticks up for murderers is beyond the pale...

[n2doc]

6. $$$

AIPAC pays their minions well. And punishes those who don't toe the line.

[n2doc]

5. Seems like, if they hide weapons there, the thing to do is to look first

If someone starts shooting, then retuning fire is justified. But so far I have seen no reports of people shooting from hospitals.

[magical thyme]

8. good point. nt

[riderinthestorm]

14. Presumably they did look there first and found them. That's why they bombed

But your point is well taken. Why did it have to be a bomb? Why not send in ground troops first since its in such a sensitive location next to a hospital?

Hamas isn't scoring global humanitarian points by placing that shit next to a hospital either...

[n2doc]

16. If they had found weapons, why not destroy them then?

I don't presume anything. They haven't shown any evidence of said bombs/rockets in the hospitals they have shelled, nor have they shown any evidence of being shot at from said hospitals. The IDF has not earned the right to be trusted.

[riderinthestorm]

20. Agreed 100%.

Honestly, at this point, I don't trust either side.

What makes me craziest is I think the leaders of both sides were itching for a fight. The leadership however is all safe and out of harm's way while the soldiers and innocents are the ones getting killed, maimed and suffering. Reminds me of Bush and the Iraq war - he was going to get his war on no matter what, regardless of how many people he destroyed and how many lives he ruined....

Its horrific.

[riqster]

21. This ^^^

There oughta be a law mandating politicians serve on the front lines of any war they vote for.

[Rex]

137. HA! If that were a law, we would NEVER have wars again!

The cowardly never risk life and limb.

[riqster]

169. That would be the intent of the law.

[KansDem]

27. Maybe they got the intel wrong?

You know...

[liberalmike27]

22. Yea, that's the line from Yahoo

I'm not so sure I believe it, or that dropping bombs on them is the best way to handle it--it's like a sledge hammer to nail a tack.

I think it's all kind of late in the game--the Palestinians are on reservations just like the Indians are, and have very little left. You aren't allowed to say anything bad about Israel in our media--it's a third rail, like talking bad about globalization, or that it is part of the debt, or speaking ill of a war, at least when entering the war. Some things you can no longer do.

All Obama can do is drone "Israel has a right to defend itself." "Israel has a right to defend itself." No depth man, no deeper analysis, no history will be said on our media, but I will tell you again, "Israel has a right to defend itself." Did I say "Israel has a right to defend itself."

Yea. I guess I said all I'm allowed to say on the MSM.

[riderinthestorm]

26. So weird I internalized that message. I don't even read Yahoo....

Only goes to show you that that meme has become so pervasive, I've simply internalized it without thinking. Where ARE the pictures of those weapons nearby? Why didn't they do a ground offensive instead of bludgeoning the area with bombs?

[magical thyme]

133. you forgot our "moral obligation" to Israel

in between their right to defend themselves, they repeat over and over that we have "a moral obligation" to Israel.

Because....?

[hack89]

99. Do you think Hamas will let the IDF drive around Gaza looking for bunkers?

really?

[n2doc]

123. Did I say that?

No. Try reading what I posted again, especially the part about "can retaliate if fired upon"

[hack89]

126. What if they see the weapons cache but no one fires at them?

can they take out the weapons?

[n2doc]

129. Sure, after evacuating all civilians who will leave.

One can keep coming up with scenarios to try and justify the IDF's actions. However, the IDF has only justified their actions by saying that Hamas has, in the past, hidden weapons in hospitals, etc. Not that they actually found anything in these hospitals, or that they had been fired upon from them. Without justification for firing on clearly civilian buildings occupied by civilians, they are engaging in terror tactics. If their acting like Hamas is fine with you, so be it.

They clearly don't care about collateral damage.

[hack89]

130. Neither, unfortunately, does Hamas

don't you find it ironic that Hamas has built a subterranean city that could safely shelter every hospital patient in Gaza yet chooses to use it purely for military purposes? Why aren't there shelters for the most vulnerable?

[gratuitous]

9. The logic of the outlaw

"Stand and deliver sir, or I shall be forced to shoot and you will be down as a murderer!"

[Indydem]

11. How about Hamas quits operating adjacent to hospitals?

How about schools, nursing homes, mosques and civilian housing?

How about that?

But they WANT and LOVE civilian deaths, because they get to say "see the monsters that are the Israelis" and too many (including a hell of a lot of people here on DU) agree with them.

Hamas has as it's stated goal, the eradication of Israel. Since they posses neither the numbers or the weapons to accomplish this goal, they will simply get you to do their work for them.

[Skidmore]

12. How about Israel treated the initial kidnapping as a crime

instead of an act of war? How about that? How about capturing kidnappers and bringing them to trial and then sitting down to a peace accord instead of ensuring that a war was precipitated? How about that? Netanyahu has been casting about looking for an excuse to be at war. He's been practically salivating at the prospect for some time now and was hugely disappointed when the world refused help him mix it up with Iran too.

As to who is doing the work of whom, it seems that the US is most busy assisting Israel in goods and dollars. Don't quite understand your complaint.

[Indydem]

15. This has nothing to DO with the kidnappings!

350 Palestinians were arrested in the search for the murdered teenagers. 5 killed (after they opened fire on Israeli authorities).

It wasn't until AFTER rockets and missiles started raining on Israel that more aggressive airstrikes, and finally a ground operation was launched.

The kidnapping and brutal murder of three teenagers, anywhere else in the world, would be greeted with universal condemnation on the DU. But when in Israel, the general opinion is "they deserved it."

I am tired of this bullshit.

Hamas is a terrorist organization bent on the destruction of Israel. For all of their faults (which they have many), Israel does not deserve to be under the constant threat of attack.

The "Palestinians" can live in peace, or they can live in a police state under the threat of death. It is their choice. They keep making the wrong one.

[Skidmore]

19. Let me remind you that the kidnapping of those three teenagers was

answered by the kidnapping of a Palestinian kid who was burned alive at the hands of his kidnappers--also an atrocious act.

[Chathamization]

47. But the Israelis let the Palestinians raid Likud offices, arrest hundreds of Likud members,

kill those who fought back, close down Israeli towns, etc., in response, right?

[Violet_Crumble]

25. Speaking of bullshit....

The kidnapping and brutal murder of three teenagers, anywhere else in the world, would be greeted with universal condemnation on the DU. But when in Israel, the general opinion is "they deserved it."

That's absolute bullshit. I saw all the threads about it and people weren't saying they deserved it. People at DU reacted the same as they said the revenge murder of the Palestinian teenager that you forgot to mention.

Just wondering why you put quotation marks around the word Palestinian. When it comes to the Palestinians, they don't get to make a choice about much at all at the moment. They've got leaders who care for them only slightly less than Israeli leaders do...

[Fred Sanders]

30. Sets up a straw man, knocks it down and then becomes outraged.....it is a common response to a good

argument, it is surrendering to you by admitting he has no argument.

In formal debate rules a straw man argument can get you disqualified.

[mountain grammy]

29. And, on the other side, I'm sure the argument is:

I'm tired of this bullshit! Israel is a terrorist state bent on the destruction of Hamas and it never ends...

[Fred Sanders]

33. Correction, destruction of Palestine, not just the few members of the Hamas militia/rebels.

[Indydem]

36. Has Israel EVER declared that they want to destroy "Palestine?"

Of course they haven't.

They want so little to destroy "Palestine" that they TRIED TO GIVE THEM THEIR OWN COUNTRY!

To actually CREATE a Palestine.

They rejected it and started the second intifada.

So, yeah, not the same.

If you genuinely believe there is any equivalency we don't have anything to discuss.

[Martin Eden]

39. Where would "Palestine" be?

Seriously, I'm wondering what would be the borders of the sovereign state of Palestine.

[mountain grammy]

43. Here you go:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025268139

A better question would be, where are Israel's borders? Answer: they don't have any!

[Martin Eden]

81. Not the answer I was looking for.

I'm well aware of that map, which is whu I asked the question.

The only way there can be a soverign Palestine is if Israel completely abandons the West Bank and some new boundary hewing closely to their wall.

And that simply is not going to happen, barring some huge unforeseen change in circumstances.

[Indydem]

89. Why can there not be a sovereign Palestine along their current borders?

Nations do not have to be contiguous.

[Martin Eden]

96. Because there are no current borders

I'm not talking about the lack of contiguity between the WB & Gaza; I'm talking about Israeli settlements peppering the WB and Israeli roads connecting those settlements.

The WB is sliced & diced by areas & roads ruled by Israel. While that persists, there can be no viable Palestinian state.

[Indydem]

103. The West bank isn't an issue.

Gaza and Hamas are the issue right now.

Israel has already shown it is willing to retreat from settlements and destroy them if necessary (they did this in Gaza).

If the "Palestinians" sit down at the table and pledge peace, I have a strong feeling that the Israeli's will work something out.

Maybe not. But the WB settlements are the least of the problems right now.

[Martin Eden]

117. You're kidding, right?

We were talking about the viability of a Palestinian state. Do you really think the West Bank can be excluded from that conversation??

And FYI:
The flare-up of one hot spot does not mean that all the other issues have gone away.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

115. Google Lieberman and a handful of other elected israelis

all of whom want to wipe all palestinians off the map.

In fact, you can replace Israel with Iran, and Palestine with Israel, and you won't find a difference.

[MFM008]

175. Israel needs the land

This past week hundreds more European Jews have immigrated there, this is all about Israel wanting all that beautiful beach front land for new settlements and treating Palestinians like we did Native Americans.

[mountain grammy]

41. agree..

[Pisces]

45. Some kids throw rocks at an adult wearing a helmet. The rocks bounce off, adult picks up boulder

smashes kids in the head to teach a lesson. Hmmm. Israel has all the resources and power. They need to to be the bigger
person in this no win argument that will go round and round. Just like and adult would have to be more mature.

I hope that simplified analogy will help you see how the rest of the world and now more people in the US are looking at this
situation.

[Indydem]

49. So the "Palestinians" are children?

What if the adult didn't have a helmet?

You excuse their barbarism because it is savage and you think that is all they are capable of.

They are capable of more. When they act like civilized people, they will be rewarded as such.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

56. Sorry, which side are the barbarians again?

I'm seeing barbaric acts from both sides.

I'll skip the infantilization and say it without analogies that allow for disingenuous replies.

When someone commits a criminal act, you arrest (or sometimes kill, if they resist) THAT person. You don't bomb buildings, shoot people who happen to be in the area, and destroy the infrastructure of the city in which the crime occurred.

To kill those not involved in the crime OR to destroy their property because it happens to be near where the crime occurred is a barbaric act. It is not "Defense". It is a second criminal act in and of itself.

The Israeli military commits crimes against other people in response to crimes committed by Hamas militants. It's as barbaric as the US invading Iraq in response to 9/11.

[Indydem]

57. So, wise one.

What should Israel's response BE to 1700 rockets being fired into it's territory?

Just ignore it?

I'll look forward to your response.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

60. Swat teams.

Sent in to actually catch the men launching those rockets.

It's not 1700 men launching one missile apiece. It's probably more like 25-50 guys launching many per person.

If you're not simply randomly shooting civilians or blowing up their buildings, the vast majority of them won't be interested in attacking you back.

[Indydem]

61. So if Israel put boots on the ground

Going from door to door, killing people who resisted their search for these 25-50 guys, you'd be AOK with that? What happens when armed men kill the first SWAT team? What about the second and the third?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

63. Hell no. You just completely got me wrong.

Do police just 'kill people who resist door to door searches' where you live? There would be an uproar where I live if police simply decided they get to search 'door to door'. They get warrants and search SPECIFIC houses. Somebody doesn't want to let you in? You wait, while sending off for a warrant.

I'm talking police, not military action.

What happens when armed men kill a swat team? then you kill THOSE specific criminals.

Being a swat team member isn't terribly safe, but then neither is being a soldier.

[Indydem]

65. So who would they apply to for these warrants?

And if the Hamas government of Gaza denies them search warrants, what do they do about the rockets?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

102. For the moment? To your own court system.

But you meet all of the requirements you would need if you were trying to search the house of any Israeli.

'What do they do about the rockets?' You can quit asking me that, because I'm never going to give you the straw man 'ignore them' that you want me to.

The purpose, though, is to arrest the individual criminals WITHOUT causing the entire population of Palestinians to hate you. And if they see that you'll actually treat them like humans, and not simply shoot them for the 'crime' of not wanting to let you into their house just because you want in, or to bomb them because somebody else in the neighborhood attacked you, you'll see far less support from them for the sort of crap Hamas is pulling.

Hamas won't stay in power if Israel doesn't keep propping them up by committing larger atrocities in response to Hamas atrocities.

Then, once you start getting people more like Abbas in power in Gaza, you move to creating joint court systems with Palestinians involved who don't want to see violence from anyone. They do actually exist.

At the same time, you undermine Hamas' support by loosening restrictions on pretty much everything except munitions flowing into Palestinian lands, and ending new settlements. It doesn't matter if more materiel gets into Palestinian if you're arresting the only people who are using it violently.

[Pisces]

77. This is why I gave the silliest, most simplistic analogy. You are arguing with a post who does not

want to think in nuanced or mature terms. Everything you have written makes too much sense.

[hack89]

105. The Israeli police don't operate in Gaza

do you think Hamas would allow Israeli police to search and confiscate their weapons? Really?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

119. Do you think Israel cares much about what Hamas 'would allow'?

I don't think Hamas 'would allow' the Israeli military to operate in Gaza, yet, here they are.

Israel obviously doesn't care what Hamas does or does not want, so why is it so much worse to be LESS invasive, and LESS destructive and more within the bounds of normal law enforcement does?

I think such restraint would undermine the grip of Hamas upon other Palestinians, if they saw the Israeli-Hamas struggle as something separate from themselves. Right now, Israel has everyone in Palestine thinking it's an Israeli-Palestinian conflict, because they're stomping around like Godzilla destroying Palestinian homes and building not belonging to Hamas.

[hack89]

125. Nonsense. Hamas would capture or slaughter the first team of police that tried

and Gaza would celebrate it as a huge victory.

The Israeli police cannot operate in Gaza - Hamas would not let them. Can you imagine what would happen if Hamas captured a group of Israeli policemen and held them hostage?

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

127. Whatever. You simply won't even try to envision any

attempt at a solution which doesn't let the IDF simply slaughter whoever they feel like, and destroy whatever property they want to.

You won't listen to anything I say, so welcome to ignore.

[hack89]

128. So Hamas will let Israel police traipse around Gaza with impunity? Ok nt

[Pisces]

79. You are the child who needs a childs analogy to understand. Hamas may be capable of more, but

ordinary citizens, CHILDREN!! should not be the ones paying the price. As well as Israel should not be in a position to
reward Gaza for good behavior. They are not overlords!!

[Indydem]

84. WHY ARE CHILDREN BEING USED AS SHIELDS??

If Hamas doesn't want children to be killed, why are they firing off rockets from near children? Why are they stockpiling weapons near schools?

Civilians were warned ahead of time through multiple methods that military operations were going to be happening. They chose, were convinced, or were forced to stay.

Israel can only do so much to try to same civilians from themselves. They have called off hundreds of strike because of the observed presence of civilians.

They are doing what they can.

[Pisces]

93. Keep trying to convince yourself of that.

[Hugabear]

95. 'Civilians were warned ahead of time'

[Indydem]

98. Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with Gaza

Gaza is not one giant city. Nor is it that small.

There are plenty of places, including open fields, orchards, and open land to flee to.

The real question is: What is Israel supposed to do about rockets being fired into it's territory?

[Hugabear]

108. OH PLEASE

Your solution to "civilians were warned to evacuate" is to go stand in the middle of a fucking field or orchard?

REALLY?

[Indydem]

111. It is no less ludicrous than saying "swim for it"

There are other towns and other places to go.

[Hugabear]

114. You do realize that Jon Stewart was using a ridiculous example to make his point

That there is really aren't many places for them to evacuate to

[Indydem]

118. Excuses.

If my neighborhood becomes a war zone, I leave.

[Hugabear]

121. Pathetic

Your bending over backwards to defend the targeting of civilian areas is sickening. That it's even permitted on DU is beyond me.

[Indydem]

124. Precisely. We really should do something about all these DUers approving of Hamas

Targeting Israeli civilians with rockets.

[morningfog]

149. They exist only in your hate-filled imagination.

I haven't seen anyone approving of Hamas targeting civilians.

[Indydem]

155. Then what is Israel supposed to do?

I hear all sorts of condemnation, but not one workable solution to thousands of rockets being fired into Israel.

[morningfog]

159. First, agree to a cease-fucking-fire. Easy first step.

But, Israel wants to get this year's war on.

Second, Iron Dome was and is working. Third, negotiations.

There are thousands of options other than the heavy handed massacre of innocent people.

[Indydem]

162. How does one negotiate with Hamas?

Their #1 stated goal is the eradication of Israel.

How exactly do you negotiate with them?

They had the opportunity to take advantage of a cease fire - they fired more rockets.

Further, what happens when Iron Dome fails? How many dead Israelis will be enough for the sovereign nation of Israel to take action to protect it's people?

[morningfog]

147. Now you are just being obtuse.

[Indydem]

151. Is that so?

You get a leaflet dropped on your door by the Israeli Air Force that says your neighborhood is going to be the site of military operations, and you stay there with your children?

Do you go ahead and ask a Hamas leader to stay the night too, to make sure the IDF will be knocking down your door?

I know what I would do. I guess you would just take your chances with staying.

[morningfog]

156. You have no idea what conditions anyone is living in,

whether they have the ability, means or resources to go anywhere that would be out of harms way. You simply don't know what you are talking about.

[Indydem]

160. So they are chained to the walls?

By who?

Are their legs all broken?

They can't WALK?

QUIT MAKING EXCUSES.

[morningfog]

163. Excuses?

You are unreal. You are blinded by your hate.

[Indydem]

165. I don't hate anyone.

I want peace in the Middle east more than anything.

I wept when the Camp David Accords that Bill Clinton worked so hard on fell apart because of the unwillingness of the "Palestinians" to make peace.

Israel is being attacked every single day be terrorists, insurgents, thugs, whatever you want to call them.

Israel has a right to defend itself. The civilians who are dying are a tragedy - orchestrated by Hamas for their propaganda purposes.

[morningfog]

167. Yeah, your posts contradict that.

Israel may have a right to defend itself, but not to commit war crimes.

[Indydem]

168. You need to educate yourself as to what a war crime is.

Unless, of course, you believe that they are actively targeting civilians on purpose.

If you do, that tells me all I need to know about you.

[morningfog]

171. I've told you several times that Israel is targeting civilians.

That can't be denied.

[MFM008]

176. no there isnt

all of them are being shelled, even the beach. Remember the 4 children killed on the beach. Stand in a field? You better Google Gaza, in all the pictures Ive seen of the place, most people don't have shoes. Israel is shelling a slum.

[frylock]

135. why the fuck do you continue to refer to them as "Palestinians?"

why is that, "Indydem?"

[Indydem]

136. Where is the nation of "Palestine?"

How does one get the label of "Palestinian" without a nation?

There has never been a "Palestine". Therefore, labeling them "Palestinians" is a fiction.

They quit trying to eradicate Israel, broker a land for peace deal, and form their own state, then I will call them Palestinians - citizens of Palestine.

[frylock]

138. where is the nation of "California?"

do you refer to people from Iowa as "Iowans?" let's cut the crap, shall we? you do it to dehumanize these people. you're like a screen door. people see right through you.

[Indydem]

140. California is a state. "Palestine" isn't a state either.

But perhaps you are right. Perhaps.

Perhaps I am more of a scholar of history than you.

Perhaps you don't understand the fact that the "Palestinians" are people with no nation, wanted by no one. Why is that?

Perhaps, if there was more humanity in the "Palestinians" there would be fewer rockets falling on Israel, and perhaps fewer dead civilians in Gaza.

Perhaps, if the "Palestinians" wanted to be Palestinians, they would have agreed to the terms of the 2000 Camp David Accords when Israel bent over backwards to appease them.

Perhaps, let's cut the crap.

You think barbaric acts perpetuated on Israeli citizens is perfectly OK because they are Jews. They should just shut up, live beneath the Iron Dome and live with the risk of a rocket falling on them, because they don't deserve any better than that.

[frylock]

143. You think barbaric acts perpetuated on Israeli citizens is perfectly OK because they are Jews.

got some fucking links to support that accusation, professor? don't project your hatred onto me.

[frylock]

145. again, you have links of my posts supporting hamas?

keep trying. more people need to see this shit nonsense coming from you.

[Indydem]

148. I support Israel.

You have chosen to attack me in a really uncouth way, claiming I am dehumanizing the perpetrators of violence - Hamas.

So I assume you must support Hamas. Or you don't support our ally Israel. You certainly don't have anything constructive to add to the conversation.

[frylock]

150. nah, i just have a thing against disproportionate retaliation..

is there anything in your history books about collective punishment? was your commentary about the Joooos to be considered "constructive?"

[Indydem]

153. What is proportionate response to 1700 rockets?

Israel can do no right by people like you; any response is disproportionate.

So they can either ignore you, and protect their country, or just sit there and take it.

[frylock]

157. seems you care an awful lot about the amount of rockets fired..

but you don't seem to care much about the body count.

[Indydem]

166. An unconfirmed body count.

A number being trotted out by Hamas for the purposes of propaganda.

Every dead human, of any group, is a tragedy. Israel isn't going to solve anything by doing this, I admit, but they also cannot allow Hamas to fire rockets without doing something to dismantle their infrastructure of death.

[morningfog]

152. This may come as a shock to you, but it is possible to condemn both Israel and Hamas.

It is not an either or.

I sure as hell do not support Israel and its attacks on Gaza. I never have. That does not mean I support Hamas and its rockets on Israel. I don't. And, I feel much more sorrow and sympathy for the people of Gaza than the people of Israel. The people of Gaza are suffering far worse than the people of Israel, and that cannot even be debated.

[Indydem]

158. Why are they suffering?

Why are they under perpetual threat of war?

Why won't Egypt open the border?

Why exactly is that?

Again, I want someone to tell me what Israel is supposed to do to protect itself from 1700+ rockets!

[morningfog]

161. Israel has them trapped in an open air ghetto.

Regardless of why the people of Gaza are suffering more (which you can't deny), they ARE suffering. And now being murdered. That is all that matters to me. I don't do the hate for others, like you do. I only care about the suffering and the dying and that it should end.

[Indydem]

164. An Open Air Ghetto???

With olive groves and open fields. What a ghetto!!

Quit with the propaganda horseshit.

The Gaza "Palestinians" are suffering because they elected a terrorist organization that likes to try to kill Israelis and wants to eradicate them.

[earthside]

31. Israel's rationalization for bombing hospitals.

Gaza is 140 square miles containing 2 million people.

Gaza is one of the mostly densely populated places in the world.

Just about anything and everything could be described as being in close proximity to anything and everything else. This is the rationalization for the IDF shelling and bombing hospitals, schools, nursing homes, mosques and civilian housing.

[Indydem]

35. I suggest you hop on Google maps and educate yourself.

If all Hamas wanted was to engage in lawful combat with Israel, and just wanted to fire rockets, there are PLENTY of open fields, scrub lands, and orchards they could do so from, without endangering any civilians.

They don't want that. They want to hide in the cities, and mix in with the civilian population. They are cowards and terrorists.

The fact that you act as if Gaza is neighborhood after neighborhood shows you have never even looked at a map.

[proReality]

42. Odd how all the foreign journalists there haven't yet seen any of the caches

of weapons the Israeli government claims are there.

Just an observation.

[hack89]

107. So where do you think Hamas hides their weapons?

and why do you think that they would be in plain sight for journalists (and drones) to see?

[earthside]

46. 'Rationalization'

The point is that the current Israeli government wants to bomb hospitals, nursing homes, etc.

Because of the density of population and geography of Gaza, Israel has the rationalization it wants to justify shelling civilian facilities.

As to war ... well, any freedom fighter organization would be crazy to set themselves up in a big empty field and invite a superior power to bomb them. Of course, the superior power has always called guerrilla fighters or insurgencies as "cowardly". The British generals in the American Revolutionary War said the same thing about Gen. Washington's tactics.

And ... the oppressed who fight back are also always called "terrorists", too.

Face it, if Israel decided to go back to the 1948 boundaries, support for militant elements like Hamas would disappear overnight. But Israel has a different agenda ... we all know that, so war, violence and destruction are inevitable.

[Indydem]

52. Why should they go back to the 1948 boundaries?

What would be their motivation for giving up territory they won and established a claim to almost 50 years ago?

Because you say they should? Ha!

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

62. Because the world doesn't recognize the taking of land by force by victorious

armies since world war 2?

You don't 'win' territory by war any more. Well, unless, apparently, you're Israel.

[Indydem]

64. Might want to tell that to Crimea.

Or Chechnya.

[Hugabear]

74. Chechnya was an independent country?

You're not going to find anyone here defending Russia's brutal actions in Chechnya, but Chechnya was trying to gain its independence from Russia.

As for Crimea, that did cause quite a bit of an uproar, and sanctions were levied against Russia. However, there are a few things to consider here. First, Crimea was originally part of Russia, it was "given" to Ukraine when the USSR was still around. Certainly they didn't really think that Ukraine would ever regain its independence. Secondly, nobody really wanted to start WWIII over Crimea.

[Indydem]

76. De Facto independence

"Following the First Chechen War with Russia, Chechnya gained de facto independence as the Chechen Republic of Ichkeria. Russian federal control was restored during the Second Chechen War."

Point is, territory changes hands by force all the time. The idea that Israel should give up it's gains of 50 years ago is dumb.

They won it. So sorry. Next time don't plot a war you can't win.

(They also gave back Sinai and Golem Heights, so if their sole goal was territory, they are doing it wrong)

[E-Z-B]

50. Agreed, after 1700 rockets fired at them since July 8th, enough is enough

[morningfog]

58. "Lawful combat?" There is nothing lawful about either side's war here.

Your lawful combat would also be very very stupid combat.

[Indydem]

59. Setting up shop next to a hospital to shoot rockets

And then getting the world to bitch about it's bombing is cowardly and illegal.

[morningfog]

66. Israel bombing unarmed civilians is also cowardly and illegal.

[Indydem]

67. Are they bombing civilians on purpose?

No.

They've given plenty of warning including CALLING THEM IN PERSON to let them know military actions are going to happen.

You are deluded if you think that the Israeli's want any more civilian deaths than necessary.

They are smart enough to realize that it just feeds the mental illness of the "Palestinians." They'd rather only kill Hamas members, but it's hard to do when they hide behind civilians.

[morningfog]

68. They are most certainly bombing civilians on purpose.

Israel wants the body count, Israel needs to body count to prove they are taking action. They need it for the Israeli politicians and they need as leverage.

I don't quite understand your comment on mental illness of the Palestinians.

[Indydem]

70. Really?

You don't understand that they use the deaths of civilians as a rallying cry to their cause of the eradication of Israel?

Really?

"Martyr" is another word for human shield.

[morningfog]

72. Both sides use the deaths of civilians to advance their position.

Israel wants, needs and causes the deaths even more.

[Indydem]

73. So you are saying that Israel likes to kill civilians?

That they run big propaganda cheering the deaths of civilians? And that their deaths gain them power and influence?

Then why, pray tell, don't they just kill them all?

They have plenty of conventional weapons, and nuclear weapons. If killing "Palestinians" is a badge of honor, why don't they just start massacring them?

Why would they call of airstrikes when civilians are present?

Your view is wrong, and sick.

[morningfog]

78. Yes, Israel intentionally kills Palestinians.

Israel walks a fine line of killing enough to look tough, but not so many to eradicate (although they would prefer that). They kill what the number they think is politically beneficial. Hell, they probably have a number they want for this war, 1000 or so.

[Indydem]

80. Ok, Sure.

Homicidal, evil, maniacal exterminators of innocent, peace loving "Palestinians."

Riiiiight.

[morningfog]

82. Those are all your words.

Mine would be calculating, political war-mongering war criminals.

Why, pray tell, do you put Palestinians in quotes?

[Indydem]

86. Because Palestine is a fiction.

Therefore the "Palestinians" do not exist.

[morningfog]

88. It's just a mental illness, right? Let that hate out.

[Indydem]

91. Tell me all about the history of the nation that is Palestine.

Please. I'd love to hear all about this peace loving nation, invaded by the evil Joooooos.

[morningfog]

100. Let it out! We're all friends, here.

Tell us how you really feel.

[Pisces]

90. I see all of your posts has no shred of compassion for the innocents who have died in this terrible

situation. Israel is successfully creating sympathy for Palestine where very little existed before. Now more questions are being
asked by reasonable thinking people who had their heads in the sand and weren't paying attention before.
No amount of spin can undo the imagery of dead children . Now all flights are being cancelled into Israel. The world is watching
and they don't like the genocide they are witnessing.

[Indydem]

92. Why do you think the flights are being cancelled?

Because HAMAS is shooting rockets at the airport.

[Pisces]

101. Israel is falling into a P.R. nightmare. They should cease bombing immediately. The longer they

proceed to kill children, women and innocent civilians the more people will keep questioning the deaths, and the lopsided
battle. Your spin should be directed at others. This is a very complicated issue, but the optics are pretty simple.

[Indydem]

106. As soon as Hamas quits firing rockets and stops trying to kill people.

I will agree upon your point.

I won't even make the demand that they accept the existence of Israel or stop vowing to eradicate them.

[Pisces]

109. No, they need to stop regardless of what Hamas does.

[Indydem]

112. Why? Would you tolerate your neighbor randomly shooting at your house?

No. You. Would. Not.

[Pisces]

116. I wouldn't kill their children for it, especially if I had a forcefield around my house with made

shooting harmless.

[Indydem]

120. Neat forcefield.

Guess that's why a rocket landed near the airport.

Whoops.

[malaise]

154. Actually it is the bombing that is criminal and illegal n/t

[EX500rider]

69. "Gaza is one of the mostly densely populated places in the world."

Macau: 73,350 people per sq mile
Monaco: 42,123 per sq mile
Singapore: 18,645 per sq mile
Hong Kong: 18.176 psm
Gibraltar: 12,056 psm

(both Singapore & Hong Kong also bigger then Gaza)

Gaza: 9,713 psm


http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934666.html

[morningfog]

71. Sixth on the list is "one of the most densely populated."

[frankieallen]

37. I agree, this is exactly what Hamas wants to happen. Shameful cowards hiding behind the defenseless.

[Comrade Grumpy]

48. So many new hard-line Zionist posters. I wonder why that is. Could it be:

http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/government-it/israeli-propaganda-war-hits-social-media-20140717-ztvky.html

Israeli propaganda war hits social media

A computer lab staffed by students in an Israeli university is playing a key role in the war of information in the Gaza conflict.

Inspired by the role of social media during the Arab Spring and boosted by the support of the Israeli government and Israel Defence Force, student volunteers at the Interdisciplinary Center (IDC) Herzliya, a private university north of Tel Aviv, are waging their own propaganda war countering online anti-Israeli sentiment.

Staffed by approximately 400 student volunteers the project which goes by the name “Israel Under Fire”, claims to have succeeded in closing anti-Israeli pages on Facebook and challenging propaganda from Hamas, the organisation that governs the Gaza Strip and whose military arm is firing rockets at Israel.

According to Igal Raich, a 23-year-old IDC student who volunteers in what is called "The Advocacy Room", the project aims to counter what is perceived as a false representation of Israel in international and social media through Facebook, Twitter and YouTube.

[E-Z-B]

53. Oh, come on!

[Aerows]

132. It reminds me of the people that

cheer on the NSA. If you need that much of a concerted operation to explain why what you are doing is right, it probably isn't.

[morningfog]

54. DUers are doing the work of eradicating Israel? For fucks sake.

[Dustlawyer]

23. Both sides have blood on their hands. Israel should have kept their word about the West Bank

and not allowed "Settlers." The Palestinians have nothing, no hope, clean water, jobs, .... Nothing. That feeds these tin pot Hamas guys popularity and you get perpetual eye for an eye. Unless Israel exterminated the Palestinians (sadly ironic) they will have this continue. They have created a shrinking Gulag, much to their shame. Both sides have much blood on their hands!

[Fred Sanders]

28. The state of Israel wants a milita force to play nice? The media has indeed turned on Israel,

even the tone here at DU seems to have done a 180.

Babies stacked up like cordwood will move even the dark hearts of the media it seems.

Also from the article, defend THIS:

24 to 28 members of extended family killed by one Israeli bomb in family residence.


"Further south, in Khan Younis, an extended family was wiped out in an air strike on a house. The number of dead was put at between 24 and 28. The Palestinian Centre for Human Rights said another 10 people were killed in a single air strike in Rafah, including four young children and a baby.

Save the Children said that on average, seven had been killed every day during the conflict. "For many children, this is the third war in six years that they are going through," said the charity's David Hassell."

[morningfog]

85. Israel is nearing a tipping point. Without media support,

they will reach a certain point where the no longer care how the outside world views them. Then they will act how they really want to, without the fictitious "restraint."

[stevenleser]

32. I haven't defended Israel in a long time and will not start now.

Even though I very much want Israel to survive, I cannot support them on account of their policies for the last half dozen years or so.

The wars are not acceptable in any form given not nearly enough effort to come to some peace agreement with the Palestinians.

[Coventina]

34. Are DUers defending this? I certainly am not.

Shelling a hospital is horrific, and should be considered a war crime.

[morningfog]

55. *Some* are. In this thread, even.

[Hugabear]

83. It's no surprise to see which ones are defending this

Not at all.

[morningfog]

87. Who would have thunk that a NRA member would be pro-Israel, anti-Palestinian?

[Martin Eden]

38. "US would provide $47m in humanitarian aid to help Palestinians."

How much $$ do we give Israel in military aid?

Since our bombs are causing this damage, I propose every penny of humanitarian aid be taken directly from money slated for Israel.

[Shoonra]

40. Are you pretending that the Arabs haven't targeted Israeli hospitals and ambulances?

The Arabs have frequently targeted Israeli hospitals, even those that are actively treating Arab patients.

[url]http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/born-in-israel-palestinian-twins-under-rocket-fire-from-gaza-a-540689.html [/url]

Yu can hardly find a Red Magen David ambulance in Israel that doesn't have more than a dozen bullet holes from Arab snipers.

It's no secret that the Arabs have launched rockets from the roofs of hospitals in PA territory.

[url]http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/international/211931-getting-the-law-right-on-the-israel-hamas-conflict [/url]

If the Gazans didn't want to see apparently civilian locations being bombed then they should have kept the Hamas artillary out of their neighborhoods, out of their apartment buildings and hospitals. On the contrary, they cheered them on.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

44. It really pains me to have to choose one side or the other in this

but when so many civilians are killed on one side in particular, I really feel for the Palestinians who simply find themselves trapped in one of the most densely populated places on Earth, with well over twice the overall population density of New York City. Eventually, maybe not in ten years or even twenty or more, an Arab state will develop a nuclear weapon. It's inevitable with the progress of technology. By that time, I hope that hearts are softened on both sides and they learn to live together, that Islamic extremists end their pledge to kill every Jew, and that both sides set aside their hatred. They can't keep up the killing for too many decades longer before it gets out of hand with the progress of science and more readily available WMD and we witness a mass extinction of everyone in the area.

[EX500rider]

75. "...with well over twice the overall population density of New York City."

New York City: 27,778 per sq mile
Gaza: 9,713 per sq mile


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_cities_by_population_density

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934666.html

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

134. I guess I had it backwards

It's New York City that has twice the population density of Gaza. By the way, your figures are out of date. According to 2014 estimates, the population density of the Gaza strip is over 13,000 per square mile, which is about what Boston's density is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

51. Well, you know, if a terrorist took a bunch of kids hostage

to use them as a 'human shield', wouldn't you want the police to bomb the school, potentially killing all of the kids, as long as that meant they might hit him too? Or at least a few of his weapons that he might have left there, while he went off to terrorize elsewhere?

[Marrah_G]

94. I am saddened by the amount of DUers defending he slaughter of civilians

The bombings of hospitals.....what has happened to this community?

[Hugabear]

110. No shit

One of them even suggested that there was "plenty of areas" for Gaza residents to evacuate to, such as open fields or orchards.

[DesMoinesDem]

97. New Headline: People Drawn to Gaza Hospital, and Into Center of Mideast Strife

Never mention the death and murder of Palestinians in the headline, and always blame them. That's American journalism 101.

[G_j]

113. that's the memo nt

[Lancero]

122. I'm willing to overlook some civilian casualties...

Shit, it's war. Even taking every precaution, you'll still kill a few by accident. Because of this, you have to overlook some.

But the amount of civilians killed so far goes way beyond a accident. Targeting a hospital isn't a accident.

This isn't war against Hamas. Israel's uncaring attitude over the civilians - the children - they are bombing, and them intentionally targeting a hospital? This isn't war. It's genocide.

Given how Israel has been picking targets so far, I'm expecting that they will bomb a school in the next few days. Hell, the might already have and it just hadn't reached the news yet.

[akbacchus_BC]

181. I agree with you. Israel is out to genocide the gaza strip by getting rid of the palestinians.

A DUer posted a graph about a thousand pictures in one word (paraprashing) says it all. It comes down to the abused being the abuser! Who is not sympathetic to what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is tantamount to what the Germans did to the Jews. But why! Where is the UN when this is happening?

[flamingdem]

131. And Gaza is blocked so the wounded

are not getting medical supplies.

[cry baby]

139. Israel is shooting fish in a barrel...and blaming the fish.

Very sad.

[Avalux]

146. Both sides are wrong. Violence breeds more violence and the cycle continues.

I don't care the specifics of the conflict that's been going on since before I was born. It doesn't matter. All that matters is that both sides come to a permanent agreement so there is NO MORE KILLING of innocent Jews and Palestinians.

I'd like to see Netanyahu in the Hague with Bushco.

[Skittles]

182. AGREED

sick of it, absolutely sick of it

[indepat]

177. Sure, Mr. Veep: Israel always takes only appropriate and legitimate effort in the eyes of so many,

notwithstanding the U.S.S. Liberty: that they can do no wrong in these eyes is a given.

[Skittles]

180. that side did this, this side did that

gawd it is never-ending and SICKENING