In West Bank, Israel revives home demolitions

[alsame]

In West Bank, Israel revives home demolitions to stop Hamas

<snip>

As Israel pummels Hamas’s infrastructure inside Gaza, it is also trying to prevent attacks originating from the West Bank and Israel by obliterating the houses of the relatives of Palestinians who allegedly harmed Israelis. In doing so, Israel’s military has returned to a controversial policy of punitive demolitions that has displaced thousands of Palestinians over the years.

The policy — different from Israel’s ongoing practice of destroying Palestinian structures it claims are unauthorized or built without valid permits — had been abandoned nine years ago because the military deemed it an ineffective deterrent against the Palestinian militancy.

Since the policy was reintroduced last month, the family house of a Palestinian charged in the shooting death of an Israeli civilian has been demolished. Now, the houses of Kawasmeh and two other suspects in the murders of the Israeli youths are on the list. On behalf of the families, human rights lawyers have appealed to the Israeli military to stop the demolitions, and if needed, plan to also petition Israel’s highest court. But the activists said they don’t expect to succeed, and that the houses will likely be demolished as early as this week.

“Regardless of the situation, it is morally outrageous to punish individuals or families for the action of others, who have not been involved in any kind of law breaking,” said Sarit Michaeli, a spokesperson for B’Tselem, an Israeli human rights group. “In a nutshell, it is an official policy of harming the innocent.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-west-bank-israel-revives-home-demolitions-to-stop-hamas/2014/07/22/c8197236-1dd7-4874-a3eb-f9438065644f_story.html?wprss=rss_world

[DanTex]

1. It's stuff like this that makes it really really difficult to accept the moral justifications

given by the Israeli government for their actions.

[geek tragedy]

2. Of course, the monsters who lynched Mohammed Khdeir

drew no such response. Because the value of human life, and property, and human rights in general depends on whether one's religious faith.

[Comrade Grumpy]

3. Israel, working hard to be the most loathed nation on earth.

[sadoldgirl]

4. I wonder if they even care about that. n/t

[leftynyc]

9. Too bad you're in such a small minority

Along with the latest Pew poll showing what a tiny minority you are, this should really piss you off:

http://www.herbkeinon.com/2014/07/22/israel-gets-support-from-unlikely-source-the-eu/

[clarice]

13. Good for them...thanks...hadn't seen that nt

[leftynyc]

17. No problem

The support will be very welcome in Israel. It, by no means, lets Israel off the hook but it was more evenhanded and honest than just about anything I've seen posted in a few days now. I'm expecting howling at the audacity of the EU not calling Israel the devil or shrieking about sanctions or some other bullshit.

[clarice]

19. I agree......I think that most people.....

Have a hard time remaining objective about this issue.

[leftynyc]

24. On this board you have

posters who think Israel is the worst country on the planet. We're talking about a planet that has countries where they cut off the arms of children who wont work in diamond mines, countries that butcher their women in the name of purity, countries where child marriage and slavery are still common, where rape is a weapon of war, where women get killed or ostracized for getting raped. I don't know who they think they're kidding with their nonsense but it sure isn't anyone with a brain.

[sufrommich]

29. Well said. nt

[clarice]

31. I don't get that either.....

I have seen many people on DU who are supportive of Countries who condone
that sort of behavior. It's a real puzzler.

[alsame]

33. There's a difference. These

countries you correctly identify as brutal regimes do not receive unconditional support from the US government and media. They don't have powerful lobbyists who contribute millions to our politicians. Their spokespeople aren't all over US media. They aren't invited to speak to joint sessions of Congress or get honored with White House State dinners.

Instead, they are routinely condemned, as they should be.

[leftynyc]

44. Really?

When was the last time Saudi Arabia was called out for anything?

[alsame]

46. Yes, that's the other country that we

fail to call out when they deserve it. Another huge mistake, IMO.

But you can't claim that support for SA approaches that for Israel. At most we remain silent about the atrocities committed by SA.

[leftynyc]

49. I most certainly can make that claim

When you have the head of the country invited down to our then current President's ranch, that's pretty fucking cozy. Was Bibi invited to the residence of the Obama White House?

[alsame]

53. You're missing my point, it's not

about individual relationships which will vary according to who the heads of state are at any given time. It's about US policy of unconditional support for Israel regardless of who is President or Prime Minister. And how that support permeates all our politicians and media.

[leftynyc]

56. But it hasn't always been that way

I remember the first Bush administration being very tough on Israel (probably at the behest of the Saudi's). I think the issue is you have two groups who always vote (Jews and Evangelicals) getting their representation in congress and the white house. I'm pretty sure that's the way it's supposed to work.

[alsame]

68. So religious beliefs should

determine our foreign policy? I'm pretty sure that's not the way it's supposed to work in the US.

If you are comfortable giving your unconditional support to Israel, that's certainly your right. But I hope you can understand why some of us are not comfortable with our politicians and gov't doing so.

Peace.

[muriel_volestrangler]

88. Saudi Arabia is one of the most hated countries on DU.

Just search for it to see the typical DU feeling.

[Behind the Aegis]

89. You didn't really answer the question.

Israel far outranks SA in hate here. Google the "typical DU feeling" for Israel when there isn't shit happening between Israel and Hamas.

[muriel_volestrangler]

90. I disagree - Israel has many supporters here

Saudi Arabia, pretty much none. I've never seen anyone say they like Saudi Arabia on DU - a few people say that realpolitik means we should put up with them, but no-one supports them. Whereas there are plenty of DUers who do like Israel. Some even support right wing Israeli politicians, just because they're Israeli, as far as I can tell.

[Behind the Aegis]

91. Support wasn't the question...hate was.

[muriel_volestrangler]

92. The question was "when was the last time Saudi Arabia was called out for anything?"

And it's called out a lot on DU. You wanted to say the 'typical DU feeling' was that Israel was hated more than Saudi Arabia; I think you're wrong, because many people on DU support Israel, or support it some of the time.

[Behind the Aegis]

93. Given the amount of "hits" between the two countries....I'd say you're wrong.

Most here don't give a second thought to SA, that isn't the same as hate. As for "calling out," you can't be for real!

[DanTex]

39. The difference is that nobody is defending the acts of those other countries.

Nobody is saying, "hey, rape as punishment, that's not so bad, look at the big picture." Whereas people are defending the carnage in Gaza. Nobody is claiming that Iran is an enlightened and humane nation.

But when Israel decides to, for example, destroy the homes of the families of people it suspects of violent acts, some people will actually try and defend these actions.

[leftynyc]

45. I don't see anyone defending carnage

I see them decrying the necessity that violence is even needed to solve the problem. And I've seen plenty of cultural relativism on this board. It's nauseating.

[DanTex]

48. You, for example, describing the violence as a "necessity".

Nobody describes cutting off people's limbs or state-sanctioned rape as "necessity". If some people did, you'd certainly have a lot of pushback.

I mean, look at this OP. It's about the Israeli government policy of bulldozing the family homes of Palestinian people who are suspected of violence. How is there even a debate about this?

I'm not sure what the cultural relativism comment means.

[leftynyc]

50. The bulldozing is a horrendous

action and deserves as much scorn as can be conveyed. If you don't think violence is sometimes a necessity, then perhaps we should have left hitler alone to take over Europe and kill all the undesirables. Perhaps we shouldn't have struck back at Japan. Maybe bin laden should have been left to live a long and happy life.

[DanTex]

54. I think violence is sometimes a necessity. But not the violence we're currently seeing in Gaza.

And also not the bulldozing, glad we agree about that. I also don't think that dropping the nukes on Japan was necessary, and the amount of firebombing towards the end of WW2 was excessive.

The thing is, the Israeli government has done some pretty nasty things. And, yes, so has the US government -- Latin America during the Cold War, for example. I'm not sure what the problem is with pointing this out.


Also, Hamas is a terrorist group and firing missiles at civilians is murder, but that kinda goes without saying, along the lines of "state sponsored rape is bad".

[leftynyc]

58. So what is Israel to do?

The terrorist hamas is who they HAVE to deal with.

[DanTex]

64. I don't know. It's a tough situation. That's all I've got.

I don't think the level of violence in Gaza is justified. Does it really make Israel safer? I mean, Israel is already pretty safe, the missiles don't do much damage (not to sound callous, but still). Even if Israel is counting Palestinian civilians as worth zero, I'm still not sure that what they are doing is a good move, because inevitably it's going to build more resentment and more support for extremism and terrorism.

It seems disproportionate to me. Also, other things, like the settlement building, don't seem like particularly good things to do.

But the larger picture, I don't know what Israel is supposed to do. Let's face it, there are a lot of people who want Israel off the map. And not just some tiny minority, Hamas won an election, and then there's the government of Iran. If they just give the Palestinians their own state, what happens? More terrorist attacks against Israel. And even if we concede the argument that the hatred if Israel is caused by Israeli policy, that doesn't change the fact that the hatred exists, and it's not going to disappear overnight even if the policy changes.

So, yeah, it's a tough situation.

But I also don't think the fact that I don't know what to do is justification for what they are doing.

[leftynyc]

73. that was an unbelievably

honest answer. I wish more people WD just admit Israel is in a very tough situation. My heart breaks for the children on both sides. They're innocents who deserve a better life.

[Comrade Grumpy]

36. What pisses me off is Israel's mass murder campaign in Gaza.

I don't take positions based on polls.

[leftynyc]

47. You'd have a lot more

credibility if you didn't use every single problem in the world as an excuse to blame the US or the west for it. It's become so predictably boring I'm wondering why I don't just scroll past your posts. Probably just want to see if you'll remain true to form. 700 people killed in Syria and instead of decrying that massacre, you saw fit to just comment on how it's our fault. The poll was merely to point out how unbelievably in the minority you are. I'm not surprised you didn't like it.

[Comrade Grumpy]

63. Are you even aware of US Syria policy?

It's been our policy to overthrow the government of that country for several years now. And you see the result.

And you'd have a lot more credibility if you weren't a reflexive apologist for Israel.

[DanTex]

41. Yes, it is too bad. I remember being in a small minority when I was opposed to the Iraq War.

Even smaller than the supposed "minority" who opposes blowing up hospitals in Gaza. It felt horrible. I knew something terrible was about to happen, and that a lot of people were going to die needlessly, and yet here are a bunch of people cheering on the violence. Similar.

[leftynyc]

52. But it wasn't a small minority against Iraq

There were hundreds of thousands of us here and in Europe in the streets. Everybody is against blowing up hospitals but I don't blame them for also asking whether hamas was storing weapons there. Not when the UN once again finds missiles being stored in a school:

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=un+finding+missiles+in+gaza+7+22

So those whining about how hamas doesn't use human shields are shown to be wrong.....again.

[DanTex]

59. Who said Hamas doesn't use human shields? Not me.

Is it OK to blow up a hospital if one suspects that weapons are being stored there? Is the level of collateral damage that the current Gaza offensive produced morally justifiable?

Well, the only way to really know is to have detailed first-hand military knowledge, which I certainly don't have, and you probably don't have either. Barring that, we can look at the casualties and the amount of damage, and then listen to the justifications by the Israeli government.

But here's the problem. This is the same government that bulldozes the homes of families of people suspected of violence. The same government that continues building settlements which pretty much everyone in the world considers illegal. And so on. So when they say, look, we really need to destroy these hospitals and fire all these rockets that we know will kill large numbers of civilians, because that's the only way for us to be safe, I'm pretty skeptical.


BTW, if there's a justification for the settlement building, I'd like to hear it. And I don't mean that in a snarky way, I'm curious. I'll probably still disagree, but I'd still like to know what the argument is.

[leftynyc]

62. No justification for settlements - ZERO

They do nothing to help and only hurt both sides so I have no idea why they continue with them. While I'm really enjoying our chat, I have to run and catch a train. Not sure if I'm going to be back online until the morning but didnt' want you to think I just walked away.

[DanTex]

65. OK. Nice talking to you. A civil discussion on Israel/Palestine!

[leftynyc]

72. I'm trying to post

fr my phone so this CD get interesting. We prob agree on more than we disagree but I have family and friends in Israel so really can't be an impartial person. Buy the hyperbolic "Israel is the worst country in the world" nonsense really pisses me off.

[bravenak]

74. Israel is NOT the worst country.

Hell no.

[leftynyc]

75. You certainly

wouldn't know that from reading this board. Some of the most hyperbolic bullshit to ever grace the site. Well, Israel or the US kinda tie for worst to many duers.

[bravenak]

76. We just care about the US and Israel more.

We think that our two nations should be better than the rest of the world. I am guilty of ignoring the nastiest comments because i don't like to read racist shit. I think i will alert on jacked up stuff from both sides and read all of the comments. I honestly just feel horrible about the dead children. I cannot get past it. I have been in that situation before. If Hamas wants dead babies i want Israel to deny them what they want. If they give them what they want they cannot claim the moral high ground. It makes me feel guilty. And right now Israel is making a huge mistake by pointing at Hamas and saying they want dead Palestinians and going ahead and killing them for them. It makes no sense. If Hamas wants dead Palestinians, Israel should deny them that. The lines between them and Hamas are so blurred right now, i cannot tell the IDF from Hamas. Except that Hamas is not as good at killing right now. I makes me ashamed that my nation is helping kill people again. We need to stop. We are becoming the bad guys. We should not kill more civilians than a terrorist organization. To date During this operation Hamas has killed mostly soldiers. Israel has killed 75% civilians. It makes Israel less safe in the long run and less respected. I think it will lead to more delegitimization of Israel and maybe eventually the end of Israel as we know it.

[stranger81]

77. ^^THIS^^

+1000

[leftynyc]

83. I share your disgust

at this. I just realize Israel is in a position that is unsustainable. Rockets raining down - hundreds of them - every week is not something any country would ever put up without fighting back. It would be lovely to always be able to take the high ground and allow the better nature of people to prevail but we're talking about a terrorist organization that simply doesn't care who dies - even their own. Now Israel is being punished because the "bottlerockets" or "firecrackers" that some here seem to think don't cause any damage have managed to land a mile from the airport. Those same people who think the rockets aren't a problem are probably cheering the result of those firecrackers because it's hurting Israel's economy. They're disgusting hypocrites that I'm tired of seeing take over this site. I'm here to remind them they're a small, very vocal, minority among Americans. The EU put out a very strong (and very evenhanded) statement about this rather than pushing for sanctions against Israel and even the UN has reported, just today again, that they found missiles in another school putting to rest the lie that hamas doesn't use human shields. If people here are going to defend a terrorist organization, I'm going to stay and remind them of what they're defending.

[DanTex]

79. Yeah, looks like we actually agree on a lot.

Primarily that the I/P thing is a mess and a tragedy. I can see where you can get frustrated by the "Israel is the worst country" thing. Personally I guess I have "no horse in this race", although I've met a number of Israelis and no Palestinians. For me, what's annoying is seeing all the carnage, and the conditions that Palestinians live under, and then the official explanation is that Israel has no other option, that they have to do this in order to survive.

Like I said in the other sub-thread, I don't have the answer, but it just seems like there has to be some better way to proceed that doesn't involve so many people being killed. Obviously, Hamas is horrible, they are terrorists, they just want to kill Jews and get rid of Israel. And they aren't going anywhere. It's not easy to deal with.

I also think the whole situation brings out the worst in both peoples. And I don't see any good resolution.

[LittleBlue]

5. Are they going to bulldoze the families of those who burned the Palestinian boy alive?

Didn't think so.

Racial laws = apartheid state.

[obxhead]

8. Nope. Israel has a one way street mentality.

What's mine is mine and what you have that I want is mine.

Stolen with American bombs and bullets.

[4now]

10. Nothing bad will happen to the people who forced

the Palestinian boy to drink gasoline and then burned him alive.
They will be set free after everything blows over.
Maybe they will arrest and beat his American cousin again.

[tritsofme]

16. Utter bullshit. You confuse the two groups.

You can bet your bottom dollar that the Israelis who carried out the revenge attack will never walk outside a prison. They are pariahs.

Whereas Hamas celebrated as heroes, and would never consider arresting the men behind the deaths of the three Israeli children.

[leftynyc]

18. Nope - they will throw a parade

for the killers. It's what they do.

[tritsofme]

34. Repeating nonsense doesn't make it any less nonsense

Put up or shut up with this fact free smear. They are in jail now, where they will remain.

Not surprised that you do not address or dispute the point made about Hamas.

[leftynyc]

43. If you want to ignore the

revolving door that represents the justice system in gaza, feel free to keep your head in the sand. If you want to pretend there wasn't widespread support for the killers of those teens, then you're just ignoring reality.

[tritsofme]

51. Now I'm confused, are you speaking of Israel or Hamas?

I agree the Hamas run justice system in Gaza is a joke, I was responding to someone's nonsense that the Israelis who committed the revenge killing would not face justice and would be returned as heroes.

[leftynyc]

55. Apologies

I completely misread your posting and thought you were praising the justice system in gaza (we agree it's a joke). The criminals who did the revenge attack will be brought to justice in Israel - there is no doubt about that.

[morningfog]

57. ^^That was comedy gold. Two pro-Israel posters arguing with each other, LOL!

So blinded by rage they went after each other. Thanks for that.

[leftynyc]

60. LOL - You call that rage?

3 posts of a misunderstanding? No wonder you think Israel is overreacting. You obviously have absolutely no perspective.

[morningfog]

66. No, I said the posters were blinded by rage,

not that those posts were rage. You have to admit, that was funny. I just wish it had gone on longer.

[leftynyc]

70. You think I'm blinded

by rage? Based on what?

[morningfog]

67. By the way, I think Israel's "overreaction" speaks

for itself. What's the magic body count Israel is going for this time? 1000? 1500? More?

[leftynyc]

71. No idea

I missed the last meeting. What do you think is appropriate for the hundreds of rockets raining from the skies?

[morningfog]

78. How many were kille by the tickets before the

invasion and air strikes?

[leftynyc]

84. I'm going to assume

your autocorrect gives you the same headache mine does and assume you meant rockets. Now that they've had to shut down the airport because of those "firecrackers", do you feel comfortable saying they aren't anything to worry about? I'll never understand that argument - that because hamas doesn't have weapons as effective as Israel, that that means something important. It doesn't. That people on this board think a country that has missiles raining from the sky should just sit around doing nothing is bullshit. I'm sure these same hypocrites are cheering the hit the Israeli economy is taking from closing the airport.

[eridani]

82. The rockets had exactly one casualty. Therefo the appropriate response is one casualty in Gaza n/t

[leftynyc]

85. Well, that could be the most

nonsensical post I've ever had to answer. When did proportional response become a valid argument when your country is being attacked every single day?

[eridani]

86. It is Israel that is attacking the Palestinians every single day

Israeli deaths are 95% military. Palestinian deaths are 75% civilian. Rockets have no serious military effects at all. They are the equivalent of kids kicking the back of the driver's seat in a car.

[leftynyc]

87. Your disdain for Israeli lives

tells me all I need to know. I can't die from a kid kicking my seat in a car. Is the same true if one of these "firecrackers" falls on your head? Would you like to volunteer to try that out?

[eridani]

94. The odds would be pretty much in my favor, as there are virtually no civilian casualties from them

Israel has an army and an airforce with advanced weaponry. Palestinians are in the position of children. They have no way of stopping Israel's ethnic cleansing, and only the power to make the conquerors enjoy their conquest somewhat less.

[clarice]

21. EXACTLY !!! nt

[DanTex]

42. The Israelis who carried out the revenge attack will be arrested, tried, and imprisoned.

But their families' homes aren't going to be destroyed without a trial.

[Hugabear]

6. I wonder if our resident pro-Israel defenders will defend these actions?

Somehow I think they'll be silent on this one

[alsame]

7. "It's Hamas' fault." nt

[BillZBubb]

80. They'll defend them...no matter the outrage, they defend them.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

11. Keeping the hatred alive

This will have a very bad ending for Israel, and I don't say that gladly as I support the idea of a Jewish homeland in Israel. I already cry for the innocents on both sides, Jew and Arab. Maybe not tomorrow, but one day the hatred will erupt into an ugly, inevitable, major catastrophic event.

[NutmegYankee]

12. Absolute barbarianism.

Just on a morale level, how can the families be held responsible?

[Rex]

14. This is what happens when two groups of people are so angry with each other, for so long

that the thought of peace makes them both vomit. There will always be dead children on both sides, it seems to be what the two groups want the most - to punish the other for existing.

The outcome? More dead babies. I think the elders on both sides have all lost their minds and are ravaged by hate and loathing.

[geek tragedy]

20. Israelis see dead Israeli children, Palestinians see

dead Palestinian children, the dead of one tribe being invisible to the other

[Rex]

23. Wait...did you mean Palestinians see dead Palestinian children?

Surely you are not saying the Palestinians don't see their own dead children and burn for revenge.

[geek tragedy]

25. the former. edited, thanks for the catch. nt

[Rex]

28. NP. I agree 100% with you.

Sadly I have no answer, but the rage will continue out of control until one sides hunger for death is slated. Or maybe never, it is a tragic area that silently screams out for peace. It is constantly depressing reading about the kids dying on both sides, their future gone.

[geek tragedy]

35. When each race/tribe sees the other as brush

that needs to be cleared from "the land God promised us" this is what happens.

Palestinians and Jews will have to live with each other for centuries. Not much acknowledgment of that.

[Rex]

37. Yeah it might be impossible for both groups to finally decide on decades of peace.

So much bad blood between the two.

[clarice]

22. Yes....and I really don't see an answer....

How can anyone negotiate peace between two countries who will look you right in the eye
and say "It's God's will" ?

[Rex]

26. I don't believe you can. They are too far removed from reality at that point imo.

The hatred for the people that keep killing their children amounts to more dead children on both sides.

[clarice]

32. YEP !! nt

[tritsofme]

15. The US constitution wisely bans "corruption of blood"

Not a wise or effective punishment, they were right to abandon it the first time.

[iandhr]

27. This is amoral and idiotic

"The policy was abandoned in 2005 after the military determined that the demolitions bred resentment and fresh recruits that helped fuel the Palestinian insurgency."

Won't the same thing happen again?

[Rex]

30. Insanity...both groups suffer from it.

Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Albert Einstein

[Avalux]

38. Netanyahu is a warmonger. He needs to be stopped.

I don't give a crap what Hamas has done; using that as justification to destroy innocent lives is just plain evil; but that is precisely what Netanyahu is - a psychopath along the lines of Cheney.

My heart grieves for the innocent lives lost on both sides of this conflict.

[madville]

40. Similar to North Korea

Commit a crime or defect and three generations of your family are going to the prison/slave labor camps.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

61. All that's missing is Bibi's cowboy boots and smirk.

[Erich Bloodaxe BSN]

69. Dumb, dumb dum dum dumb!

Unless, of course, your intention is to continue to perpetuate the cycles of violence. If that's the goal, then congrats, all is going according to plan.

[BillZBubb]

81. And the Israelis wonder how Hamas keeps getting more and more support.

Every brutal, illegal, and immoral action like this that the Israelis take creates more Palestinians who will want to destroy Israel.

Of course that is precisely the goal of the Israeli right. That allows them to get the Jews worldwide to support more brutal, illegal, and immoral acts. The end game being the gradual ethnic cleansing of all the parts of the West Bank the Israelis want to annex.

The Jews were once the bastions of morality, fairness, and decency. No more.