McDonald’s Fires Mom Who Was Arrested For Letting 9-Year-Old Play In Park Alone

[Karmadillo]

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/07/22/3462704/debra-harrell-fired/

McDonald’s Fires Mom Who Was Arrested For Letting 9-Year-Old Play In Park Alone
BY BRYCE COVERT JULY 22, 2014 AT 11:23 AM
UPDATED: JULY 22, 2014 AT 11:26 AM

Debra Harrell, the mother who let her nine-year-old daughter play in a park while she worked her shifts at McDonald’s and was arrested after adults at the park called the police, has been terminated from that job, her lawyer confirmed for ThinkProgress.

While Robert Phillips, the attorney representing her pro bono at McGowan, Hood & Felder, said that she was released from jail the day after she was arrested on bond, he confirmed that she had been let go from her job. He didn’t have any information as to why. A spokesperson for McDonald’s declined to comment, saying it is inappropriate to discuss a human resources issue. She also said the company is cooperating with local police in their investigation of the situation.

The good news is that Harrell has been reunited with her daughter, as Phillips confirmed. But the case from the Department of Social Services is still ongoing. “Whenever there’s an allegation of a crime, and in this case the child is considered the victim even though she wasn’t harmed…allegedly perpetrated by a family member, DSS has a mandate to come in and remove the child from immediate harm,” he noted. “They were just doing what the law requires them to do.”

According to Reason, during her daughter’s summer vacation Harrell had her spend her days playing on a laptop at the McDonald’s where she worked. But their home was robbed and the laptop stolen, so her daughter asked to go to the park instead. She was allowed to do so twice, with a cell phone for emergencies.

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[TDale313]

1. I feel for this mother.

It sounds like she was doing her best for her daughter under difficult circumstances.

[Xyzse]

3. Agreed. I feel like the penalty of all of this is insane, considering they were trying hard.

[moriah]

2. In South Carolina, the kid could have been home alone legally, and would have been safer there.

But given that $24,000 has already been raised for this woman, at least she won't lose the roof over her head while she finds a new job.

[betterdemsonly]

13. So the children of the poor are supposed to be home alone watching tv

Last edited Tue Jul 22, 2014, 05:44 PM - Edit history (1)

and eating doritos but if you have a rich fundamentalist housewife mom, you can go to the park.

[moriah]

22. If they don't live close enough to a park....

... to walk to it while an adult is home after school and before bedtime, I guess no, they don't get to. Because that was the rules I had growing up, and no, I didn't have a fundamentalist housewife mother.

My mother left my drug-addicted child molesting father when I was three, and we moved in with my grandparents. My grandfather was the adult I could run home to, though I didn't get to go to the park within walking distance from my house unsupervised until I was 7, and only in the company of other kids, while an adult was home at all of their houses. The park was within shouting distance -- literally, my grandfather heard it when I fell and skinned my knee.

There's no way in HELL my mother would have dropped me off at a park to spend all day while she was working. She would have found someone. Anyone.

And this mother had the option to take her daughter to work with her.

Don't come at me like I'm some spoiled fundamentalist housewife or the child of such a home just because I feel that a child naive enough to advertise they are unsupervised should NOT be unsupervised.

[pnwmom]

33. How is that situation different from the girl being able to walk to McDonald's

from the park when she wanted to? That's where her mother was. Why is that worse than walking home to be with her mother?

Just because she dropped her off didn't mean the park was far from the McDonald's. I would drop my kids off at school sometimes, and the school was just three blocks from our house.

[moriah]

39. It was a mile and a half to the McDonald's, remember.

That'd have to be a pretty loud scream to be heard.

[pnwmom]

45. In my school district all 9 year olds are supposed to walk to school at that distance.

If you are under 2 miles, you are not eligible for a bus and you are supposed to walk.

Many parents drive, but the district considers this a safe walking distance. What happens if a child walking to school runs into trouble? That would have to be a pretty loud scream to be heard.

This girl had a CELL PHONE, which put her way ahead of my three kids when they were walking to school.

[leftyohiolib]

133. it's unreal the respones here

[alp227]

41. Who said that? nt

[leftyohiolib]

138. or any adult can take a child to the park what you dont do is drop you kid off at the park

and leave them unattended for hours while you run off to work

[smokey nj]

99. Their home had been robbed recently. The girl usually sat in the McDonald's while her mother worked

and played on a laptop. The laptop was stolen when their home was burglarized, so she asked her mother if she could play in the park instead. Still think she'd be safer there?

According to Reason, Harrell works at McDonald’s and during the summer vacation, her daughter had spent her days playing on a laptop there. But after their home was robbed and the laptop stolen, her daughter asked to be dropped off at the park instead. Harrell gave her daughter a cell phone to call in case of an emergency and let her play in the park unattended twice.

http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/07/15/3460227/mom-jailed-daughter-park/

[moriah]

101. Presuming they had changed the locks, given that they were apparently still living there...

... yes, I do. It's unlikely that the same robber would come back again after striking the place once, so it goes back to the background level of crime.

Also, the kid likely would have had the TV on, which would have scared away most robbers.

[smokey nj]

105. You presume a lot throughout this thread, yet you never cut the single, poor, working mother any

slack. Fact of the matter is she was probably in more danger while in care of social services than she was in that park.

[Swede Atlanta]

4. McDonald's were never high on my list when I needed something "quick"

but now I will never patronize one of their restaurants.

Where is the compassion? The woman was trying to provide for her family. She made a mistake. I'll bet the manager of the McDonalds that let her go pretends to be a good Christian.

I am so tired of living in a nation where we have absolutely no compassion for anyone else. It is all about "me".

[Louisiana1976]

68. True. This decade is another Me decade.

[hfojvt]

164. no, it is the safety judgementalism decade

The oh so compassionate cop callers were just trying to help a child who was being neglected and allowed to do something "unsafe". Protect the children, by jailing their parents. What will those abusive parents do next? Allow their children to ride a bike without wearing a helmet? Barbarians!

[MountainMama]

5. Good Lord.

Why am I not surprised though? Maybe if you assholes would pay enough for some child care, she wouldn't have had that choice in the first place and then she wouldn't have an arrest record! Which is probably the reason you fired her!

Excuse my language, but I really fucking hate people these days.

[smirkymonkey]

90. I know, I feel so terrible for this poor woman.

It seems like a no win situation for her. No matter what she does, they are going to find a way to screw her. I hope the publicity helps her to get the support she needs.

[Brigid]

6. This incident just goes to show . . .

How precarious the lives of the working poor are. The slightest thing going wrong can set off a chain reaction that snowballs into big trouble. Lacking child care resources, the child hung out at her mother's workplace, playing on her laptop; then the laptop was stolen; the child was allowed to play in the park instead; people at the park noticed her and called the cops; the mother gets arrested; Social Services gets involved; and on it goes. I hope Social Services is "investigating" how to actually help this mother instead of just persecuting her.

[RainDog]

16. +1000 n/t

[etherealtruth]

53. Sadly, that is it in a nut shell

The working poor have do not really even have a fighting chance.

It is tragic and unconscionable that folk putting this much effort into doing the right thing (taking care of their children and working) are set up to fail.

"We"scream "get a job" .... and attempt to paint the poor as lazy.... without acknowledging that child care (while working a minimum wage or close to minimum wage job) is unaffordable. We insist that the working poor be placed in situations where there is no good answer.... and then sanctimoniously criticize them for their "bad decisions"

[Louisiana1976]

70. That's right.

[Solly Mack]

89. +1

[treestar]

106. +1

This is appalling.

[suffragette]

127. + 1,000

[Starry Messenger]

7. What busy-body narced on her in the first place?

Self-righteous asshole.

[Cali_Democrat]

15. And now the kid's mom is out of a job

That obviously hurts the kid.

I hate nosey busy-bodies.

[Starry Messenger]

18. My brother and used to play in a field a mile away from the house.

For hours. What happened to kids being allowed to play?

I wish people who are in people's business would actually think about the consequences. Now mom has lost her job and who knows the legal bs she's now got to deal with.

[jeff47]

21. Parenting became a competition.

Now, the challenge is to show just how much you sacrifice for your kids.

Diapers? Too easy. So cloth diapers. Which then became too easy. So now we have "Diaperless Parenting" where you're supposed to follow the baby around with a bowl.

Go play at the park? Too easy. Now parents have to go to the park with the kids, to show how much better a parent they are. And if there's a kid there alone, well that must be endangering the child. Otherwise, why would you waste so much time at the park?

[Starry Messenger]

27. Do we know the identity of the narc?

While hipster moms can be annoying, I see them more going and talking to mom when they get a chance.

I'm picturing someone older, with her grandkids or something, who decided Officer Friendly would just have a talk with mom, because she was too passive-aggressive to ask if there was something she could do to help out.

[jeff47]

31. Not that I know of.

And you'd be surprised at what "hipster moms" would do.

Sister/BIL live on a quiet cul-de-sac. Neighbor is astounded they let their 4 kids play outside without sitting outside to watch. All 4 kids are out there, with about 15 other kids. The kids are literally right outside the front door, and the kids are well aware of where mom and dad are.

But the parents the next house over insist on supervising the playtime.

[Starry Messenger]

38. I went to art school and lived in hipster mecca Berkeley/Oakland for years.

I know what you mean though.

They aren't usually big on cops, just in my experience.

[treestar]

108. I know right?

What an appropriate "punishment." Now the kid can starve.

[moriah]

23. The stranger who had seen her in the park alone for the second day in a row.

Thank God it was a busy-body, and not a pedophile.

[Starry Messenger]

30. You never played alone in a park as a child?

Weird. I guess my mother should have gone to jail.

Why didn't the friendly stranger wait for mom to come back and ask if it was ok if she helped?

[moriah]

36. Really? Wait several hours for the mom to pick the child up at the park, or call the cops?

What do you think is more likely to happen?

This wasn't a park within walking distance to the kid's house, where she could have ran home. Her place of safety was a mile and a half away.

[jeff47]

42. Really? A mile and a half is an insurmountable distance??

[moriah]

50. For a nine-year-old child in the summer heat?

A 20-30 minute walk?

I'm just grateful that it'd be illegal in my city for this to have happened in the first place. Kids are allowed to be outdoors unsupervised after 2:30 PM, when school lets out, but until then must stay indoors or the parents will have to deal with a juvenile curfew violation. At the most, a few hours. Not all day long.

[jeff47]

54. Well, my 3 year old does that daily.....

Now, she's walking with a parent since she's 3, but she can easily handle the distance. And she's 3. A 9 year old can easily cover that distance.

Oh, and she had a cell phone and knew how to use it. So if she really needed help, she could call her mom.

I'm just grateful that it'd be illegal in my city for this to have happened in the first place. Kids are allowed to be outdoors unsupervised after 2:30 PM, when school lets out, but until then must stay indoors or the parents will have to deal with a juvenile curfew violation. At the most, a few hours. Not all day long.

I'm sorry you live in such irrational terror.

[moriah]

56. If the kid had been smart enough not to answer questions from the busy-body....

.... I'd feel differently.

But that busybody could have been anyone. And that's what scares me about this whole situation.

[jeff47]

61. Again, I am sorry you live in such irrational terror.

Kids can handle far more than you think. We did. And the world today is much safer than in our youth.

[Starry Messenger]

57. Good lord, what are poor parents supposed to do when there is no school?

Quit their job and stay home to let the kid just sit and rot in front of the TV? Let me know what city that is, I'll avoid it.

[moriah]

62. Many major cities have daytime curfews, Little Rock isn't the only one.

It was a bit of a pain when I was homeschooled and tutoring another homeschooled child, Mom had to drop me off over there but I could take the public bus home since it was after school let out.

Otherwise, the only people that complain about it are teenaged students with cars who want to go off-campus for lunch.

[Starry Messenger]

65. We are talking about SUMMER.

No school. You are talking about school hours. This little girl is outside because it is summer and she has NO SCHOOL.

[CreekDog]

72. i guess you're right, the kid is safer now, until mom runs out of money

which despite donations will be soon if she is unable to work in the future.

won't somebody think of the children???

oh wait, that's what mom was doing. oh well.

[yeoman6987]

122. Until Mom runs out of money?

Heck she has 24K so far. That is easily a years wage for McDonald's and that might not even be the end of the money. She now needs to use the money to stay home with her child for the year until she is 10 and then things will change. I know it is only a year, but cities take 9 year olds and 10 year olds differently.

[LexVegas]

73. Summer curfews? Where do you live, post-war Europe?

[X_Digger]

88. No shit. Wherever the fuck it is, I want to stay away from there. n/t

[X_Digger]

94. Little Rock's curfew doesn't apply during the summer. Derp. n/t

http://www.thv11.com/story/news/local/2014/02/13/1708296/

[Starry Messenger]

102. *crickets*

[smokey nj]

107. She won't address that, nor will she answer the question what was the mom supposed to do -

other than to say leave the girl home alone.

[Starry Messenger]

116. I hate it when people get the cops involved without thinking things through

about what that does for people living in poverty. Do people think that police just call a babysitter and give someone a friendly talk, like Mayberry?

[smokey nj]

118. I do as well, Starry. Unfortunately, too many in the privileged classes don't get what it's like to

only have bad options, or no options at all.

[moriah]

162. I had trashed this thread until someone else had to reply to me in it today.

But she could have taken the kid to work with her, which is what she had been doing before. And again, anyone who does not understand how *blessed* a single mom is if they are able to take a child to work with them....

But now, she doesn't have the job. Which sucks, and I've never defended that. In the first thread, I said my opinion, which was that she was too young for it, but I didn't say the woman should have been arrested and had her child taken away, either.

http://www.wjbf.com/story/26073987/documents-uncover-new-details-in-neglect-case

What astounds me is that people on DU are defending leaving a nine-year-old child from at least noon to get free lunches until 8 PM in a public park 3.9 miles from their home and 1.5 miles from their work.

I am completely flabbergasted that ANY parent would feel this is correct, and while I've admitted I'm not a parent, I've yet to speak to a single one IRL who thinks this is acceptable. Only on a very out-there sometimes apparently discussion board.

Edit to add: From this, it appears that at least one witness who worked with the feeding the kids program knew the family, had attempted to offer childcare, had a discussion with the mother, and the mother said it was fine because the kid bikes there and there were people around. And the witness added that the kid is a "wonderful kid" who ordinarily doesn't talk to strangers, which does help reassure me. But I'm sorry, but if I'd offered to help and been rebuffed, and this was happening routinely where the child was staying as late as 8 PM at night unsupervised, yes, I would have called the cops too.

[smokey nj]

163. Blessed?! Seriously?

You clearly have no clue what it's things are like for the working poor.

[moriah]

165. You try losing two of your children to drowning on the same day because the only person....

... who could take care of the kids was too sick to supervise them, while BOTH parents were at work (and still not able to afford childcare for their three).

That's what happened to a friend of mine who I have known since junior high -- she would have counted it a BLESSING to have been able to take her boys to work with her.

[smokey nj]

168. While I'm sorry for your friend, what happened to her has absolutely nothing to do with this

situation. Her mother's arrest and time in foster care was far worse for the girl than spending time alone in the park. Now, I'm done with you.

[moriah]

169. And I never said that arresting her was correct, you are mischaracterising what I said.

Still, a mother that has the option of taking her child to work with her is far luckier than most single mothers working minimum wage.

And the struggle to find adequate childcare can often lead to tragedies like the one that befell my friend, who again, would have counted herself blessed if she had found a job where she could take her boys with her.

[smokey nj]

170. A single mother working at McDonald's is not blessed, no matter what you say.

[CreekDog]

71. you're assuming the kid's house is air conditioned and cooler than outside?

how quaint.

[Demit]

86. We played outside ALL DAY in the summer heat.

We roamed all around in the summer heat. We walked 30 minutes to the swimmo, then 30 minutes back. That's what summers are for, when you're a kid! To be outside!

You know, I've read your criticisms a couple of times now, about how the busybody could have been a pedophile. That would, what, snatch up this kid when there are other kids around, and all those helicopter parents too?

But you are reaching now, with this "But what about the HEAT?" for a nine year old, as if nine year olds are all passing out in droves on a summer day because they're nine years old. Kind of weird, really.

[moriah]

95. I'm not sure if you understand how predators operate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_grooming

Child abduction is very rare. Child molestation is *not*. By the time molestation occurs the adult is no longer a "stranger", but far too many start out that way. This child was far too open and honest with a complete stranger for me to feel comfortable. I stand by that.

But yes, summer in South Carolina can be brutally hot, and kids need to be able to have a safe home base when they are exploring their neighborhoods. A place they can go that is reasonably close by, where a trusted adult is free to address any emergency immediately. It could be anything from playing too hard and not drinking enough water and getting heat exhaustion (which can and does happen, and realistically probably happens more often than child abduction) to twisting an ankle. I had a range I was allowed to run about in, but there was always an adult who was capable of addressing an emergency within shouting distance.

I also only ran about with a gaggle of other kids, as it sounds like you did. Their parents and mine all knew each other, and they all collectively tried to watch out for us in the neighborhood. Had there been even one other parent present that knew the child and her mother, I'm willing to bet this would not have went down at all like it did. (Edit to add: This is what I was referencing about it "not being the '70s anymore" -- people simply don't act like that nowadays.)

[Demit]

125. You're not sure of a lot of things, because you can't be. But you think you are.

By that I mean you don't know what the situation was, or how savvy this child is, or what the surroundings even looked like. But you propound on it anyway, because you are so sure that you know best based on your own limited experience.

Just like that woman did who called the police on a child who was not in any way in distress. She, and you, are the kind of people who think they know better than anyone else what the correct thing is to do, even when both of you have limited knowledge of the facts. She inserted herself into a situation because she didn't "feel comfortable," as if the most important thing was her comfort level. She never gave a thought to the possibility that she could be judging the situation wrongly, and now she has needlessly damaged a woman's life and put the woman & her child into the system. She acted precipitously, she was wrong, and it's not now & never will be justifiable.

[hfojvt]

166. I wonder how many people in this country

have a naive belief that if they call the police about a "problem" that the police are gonna "help".

[treestar]

109. My sister and I were allowed to walk to a drugstore

Where we bought candy and magazines. That was at least a 30 minute walk away.

[Starry Messenger]

44. The child had a cell phone, more than we ever had as kids.

I used to walk in the woods for hours in summers in Tahoe. All week, all day. All the kids did.

So what did calling the cops accomplish? Mom is now a criminal and out of job. Great job, citizen!

If the nosy person had enough free time to observe the child for two days and obviously noticed that the girl was there for more than a few minutes alone. It's someone who hangs out at that park.

[treestar]

112. Really good point too

We were allowed to go to the park on our own without cell phones. We were allowed to walk to the library or drugstore, crossing a big highway or walking alongside it. If we'd have cell phones, we could have gone further!

[kcr]

91. My sister, friends and I all played at the park without our parents

Two days in a row even, probably more. Crime rates are lower now than they were then.

[mercuryblues]

84. the same

type of busy body that would call her a leech on the government teet, if she stayed home and collected welfare.

Without a strong family support system, it is a no win situation when you are a single parent. Something has to give in our society. Better wages would be a start.

[BronxBoy]

126. And instead of befriending the kid.....:

And learning about her situation, called the fucking cops and put this mother into a shitstorm

[Silent3]

8. Helicopter parenting apparently isn't merely popular now, it's the law. n/t

[Warpy]

9. All the bluenoses are conspiring to make sure

she has to turn to crime to survive with her child.

Good going, all you moral people. Here's to another success, the creation of another human being you can look down your long blue noses at.

[Louisiana1976]

75. Exactly.

[uppityperson]

10. Well, that will surely help the child.

I feel for this family, being working poor with a child is very very very very very difficult.

[lpbk2713]

11. Now think of all the shit McDonald's gets away with.

They screw minimum wage employees out of Millions of $$ every year.

The double standards make me sick.

[SunSeeker]

34. Exactly. The kid was in the park because McDonalds doesn't pay enough to cover childcare. nt

[leftyohiolib]

12. what if someone ran off with her child?

[betterdemsonly]

14. It could happen if the child were at home too. n/t

[leftyohiolib]

136. so? does that make it ok to drop your child off in a park while u run off to work?

[coyote]

17. what if?

What law did this mother break exactly? When I was a kid in the 70's....all the parents let us loose to play in the woods, parks, whereever. They knew where we were or could find out very quickly if they did not.

If we used the same cuckoo standard now for back then, all the parents in my neighborhood would be in jail.

[markpkessinger]

25. Exactly, and the risk of "someone running off with her child" . . .

. . . is no greater today than it was then.

[moriah]

28. It's not the '70s anymore.

Did your parents drop you at a public park that was outside of walking distance to your home for eight hours at a time?

Where the only way you could come in from the heat to get something to drink was to walk a mile and a half to a McDonald's where you could get free food and sit in the shade, since your Mom worked there?

[pnwmom]

40. Where are you getting the idea that the park was outside of walking distance to McDonald's?

Her mother dropped her off -- so what? That could mean she was saving her a couple blocks walk.

[moriah]

43. It was a mile and a half to the McDonalds, which is longer walking distance....

... than I would want a possibly dehydrated child walking in the summer to get food and drink.

[pnwmom]

48. How do you know she didn't have a water bottle and food with her?

Do you understand that millions of children walk that far to school every day -- even in warm weather?

[moriah]

52. In my city, busses are available if you're more than a mile away from the school.

Or if it would require crossing a four-lane road to walk to the school.

[pnwmom]

60. That's not true in either the city I grew up in or the one I'm in now.

A nine year old would have to walk up to 2 miles and a high schooler, 2.5. (unless there was a hazardous road crossing)

My mother was surprised because in her old district the limit was a mile and a half. But millions of kids are living in cities with 2 mile limits.

[Demit]

87. You know there was a splash park in that park, don't you?

A water feature the kids could play in? Your scenarios are getting more & more fanciful. Now you're picturing a kid, what, crawling thru the desert croaking "Water, water"?

Yes, luckily for you & your imagination your city has a day curfew that a lot of people here have never heard of. But your kids are well-protected (and watered) in their indoor prison! Unluckily for them.

[suffragette]

144. Shorter walking distance - see map at link

http://jezebel.com/strangers-raise-cash-for-mom-arrested-for-letting-kid-p-1606105550

WJBF, the ABC news affiliate responsible for originally reporting this story, claimed that Harrell's daughter was playing in a park a mile away from where Harrell was working. But as Ryan points out:

Contrary to many reports, while the park would be more than a mile from Debra's workplace by car, it is only a few thousand feet - maybe a 5 minute walk - by foot (see photo). The little girl was given a cell phone so she could call her mom at any time.


Also, the park has a 'splash pad' so that's free access to a water feature on a summer day.
http://chronicle.augusta.com/things-do/applause/2014-05-28/2014-swim-guide

[questionseverything]

155. maybe the mom should find a lawyer and sue

child protective services for taking her daughter on unfounded allegations

i have worked on mansions where if the child was on one end of property and the parent on the other,they would be farther apart

[jeff47]

46. Yes, kidnapping rates are down since the 70s.

So it was actually more dangerous for parents to do this back in the 70s than it is today. You just hear about every disappearance, since it boosts TV ratings.

[X_Digger]

55. Your kids are SAFER than kids were in the fucking '70's. (24/7 news cycle notwithstanding.)

I know the helicopter parents have conniptions when they hear it, but crime generally, violent crime, and crime against children, including child abductions- are all down.

Turn off the fucking 24/7 stranger danger news channels and let your kids go play. Tell them to be back when it gets dark.

[moriah]

58. Ever thought they might be down BECAUSE people are more careful with their kids?

Just a thought, ya know....

[X_Digger]

63. No, they were dropping *before* bullshit 24/7 "MISSING CUTE WHITE GIRL, OMFG!" coverage.

Before the 'stranger danger' campaigns, 'amber' alerts, and before the spate of sex offender laws.

It's all a self-titillating farce that cycles on itself, feeding paranoia, legislation, and sales of products designed to keep your kids safe.

[Louisiana1976]

78. +1 million

[leftyohiolib]

132. only 1 million

[peabody]

67. I doubt that.

More people work nowadays than before so less time for them to look after their kids.

[dbackjon]

81. She failed to bubble-wrap the child before sending her off to play.

[leftyohiolib]

130. we used to play with lawn darts too we dont anymore

cars used to not have seat belts - drinking and driving used to be ok " let's have one more for the road" - smoking used to be good for us - child abuse used to be overlooked - black americans used to have to drink from separate fountains - used to be gays people couldnt get married

[jeff47]

24. What if her child was struck by lightning?

That is actually quite a bit more likely than a stranger running off with her child.

Just because you can imagine the danger, doesn't mean the danger really exists.

[markpkessinger]

26. +1000 n/t

[moriah]

32. It's not the strangers running off with the child I worry about, it's the strangers....

... who make friends with the child, so they are no longer strangers.

That's a lot of why my mother made sure I understood that a "stranger" was someone *she* didn't know. Even then, predators latch on to vulnerable kids they see like that, and will ingratiate themselves to the parents in order to overcome being perceived as a "stranger" by the family.

There is no need to advertise your difficulties in finding adequate supervision for your children by leaving them alone unsupervised in public parks.

[jeff47]

37. And those are still the people I'm talking about.

The only people not covered under "stranger" in that statistic are immediate family members. For example, child taken by non-custodial parent in a messy divorce.

Again, the child is more likely to be struck by lightning than for a stranger to "make friends" and kidnap her. Just because you can imagine the danger does not mean it is actually present.

[moriah]

85. So you recommend that people go swimming or golfing during thunderstorms, yes? n/t

[kcr]

93. So you recommend no one takes their child anywhere in a car ever, yes?

Because that is more dangerous.

[moriah]

100. If you're going to argue that, then why does anyone care about kids finding unsecured guns?

After all, only 16 kids ages 5-9 died in 2011 from unintentional injuries from a firearm. Far, far less than the number who get killed in motor vehicle accidents. They're more likely to be victims of a firearm-related homicide (55 deaths), but still far less than MVAs.

Maybe it's because ... oh, I don't know... sixteen is sixteen too many when it's preventable?

We put kids in carseats and rigorously test them for safety because it's the next best accommodation we can make to the fact that MVAs are the number one cause of death for children in the nation, because we have to drive in today's society. We fence swimming pools and ponds if we're at all intelligent, and teach our kids to swim as early as possible while they are supervised so they are less likely to drown on their own, because people like to swim and the hazard exists. We put babies to sleep on their backs, because babies (and parents) have to sleep sometime. We lock up the poisons and prescriptions, and used to keep ipacec around (some families still do, despite newer recommendations stating it should not be used to induce vomiting at home even if they will induce vomiting at the hospital), because a sanitary house is pretty important when you have kids so we have to put the household cleaners *somewhere*, and a lot of people have to take medication.

The risk in this situation was completely avoidable. She had far more options than many single parents. She didn't *have* to leave her child at the park any more than you *have* to own a gun and leave it lying around. 115 abductions by strangers is 115 too many, and about 6 times the number who die from an accidental discharge of a firearm.

It sucks that McD's did this, they could have gotten a lot of good press had they decided to stand by her. I don't think jail or taking temporary custody of the child for longer than it took to locate the mother and ascertain that she would NOT do this again was in order either. But all day long *is* different from a few hours after school or after supper until dark.

[kcr]

103. Comparing guns to transportation is ridiculous

Guns, which can be easily stored safely and securly vs cars, which are needed for trasnportation. Sorry. Not even close.

Just because you deemed it to be completely avoidable doesn't mean anything. You don't know her circumstances and what would be easy for her, and whatever they were, her being fired and arrested is far worse than avoiding a danger similar to riding in a car. Because everyone knows that foster care is just peachy, right?

[moriah]

111. And comparing child abduction to MVAs is ridiculous, too.

That was kind of my point, though you also seemed to have missed my caveat of "and leave it lying around" vs securing it.

And hold up. Do you, like, believe that just because you wish something to be true makes it so or something? Because it's unquestioned that this woman had other options -- she has admitted she had been taking her daughter to work with her prior to this incident, and that she could have continued to do so, at least until McDs decided to fire her. The only reason that changed was the laptop got stolen and the little girl would have been bored.

A child's boredom is not an excuse to compromise their safety when you have other options. This woman was damn lucky to have had that option at all, few parents do.

[smokey nj]

115. Throwing the child in foster care and her mom in jail compromised her safety more than the

day at the park did.

[kcr]

119. If child abduction were as common as car accidents, you'd be right.

But they aren't, so you aren't.

I, like, totally don't believe that. But, like, you know, saying she shouldn't be strung upside down and fed into a boiling pit of tar isn't the same thing as, like, saying stuff like what she did was the best option.

Like, OMG, it's no excuse to do something to prevent something that totally almost no chance of happening and you should totally be punished to the max if you take that itty bitty risk! Like, totally makes sense!

[LAGC]

124. Just stop, please, stop.

Quit embarrassing yourself any further and just take a break and stop posting in this thread.

The only danger to that little girl is paranoid minders like yourself.

[jeff47]

98. I recommend people get realistic about dangers instead of living in terror

of dangers they will not actually face.

[Throd]

114. There is more money to be made selling fear.

[leftyohiolib]

134. What if her child was struck by lightning? if that were to happen shouldnt a parent b there?

[jeff47]

135. :facepalm: (nt)

[leftyohiolib]

137. i felt the same way after reading these posts

dont tell me shit doesnt happen espicially with kids - there is a very real possibility that the child get hurt breaks a leg or arm or just gets cut - or stung -. just because lightning strikes are rare doesnt mean something else cant happen . think of that while youre facepalming yourself

[jeff47]

140. Which is why we all died in the 1970s when we were allowed to play on our own.

Oh wait, we're still alive.

Or are you going to argue that cuts and bees are new threats? Or that 9 year olds can't possibly handle the incredible trauma of a skinned knee?

Just because you can imagine a danger does not mean it is worth worrying about. If you don't spend every day worrying about being struck by lightning, then you shouldn't spend every day worrying about things that are more rare than that.

[leftyohiolib]

143. did i say skinned knee? i think i said broken arm or leg these thing are very real and

happen alot . why are you delberatly trying to trivialize the trouble kids can get into. oh wait i. and as a parent you are SUPPOSED try to see possible dangers to your child and reduce that risk ESPECIALLY at a park. alot of stupid shit was done in the 70's but we,ve grown up since then

[jeff47]

147. You said "cuts". And the problem is you're still worrying about rare events

i think i said broken arm or leg these thing are very real and happen alot

You said hurt arm and cuts. You didn't say broken arm.

But let's look at broken arms. The best data I can easily find from google is from Australia, where they have about 400 broken bones in children per year. To give you an idea of how common that is, 400 people is 0.00176% of their population. And that's broken bones from all sources, not broken bones from playing.

So broken arm at the park? Actually pretty damn rare.

and as a parent you are SUPPOSED try to see possible dangers to your child and reduce that risk ESPECIALLY at a park.

It's more important to teach your children not to be terrified of the world. And how to live without mom or dad constantly watching over your shoulder.

alot of stupid shit was done in the 70's but we,ve grown up since then

No, we haven't. We've actually regressed. People bring up the 70's and the lack of dead children to show that these fears are massively overblown.

A 9 year old should be able to handle a day at the park by themselves. If you don't think so, that isn't the child's problem. That's you living in terror.

[leftyohiolib]

148. what you need to have every possible action spelled out for you. with kids stuff happens

It's more important to teach your children not to be terrified of the world. And how to live without mom or dad constantly watching over your shoulder.

not at 9

also spending "a day inthe park" is not what was going on from the article
Debra Harrell, the mother who let her nine-year-old daughter play in a park while she worked her shifts shifts plural multiple - it wasnt a day in the park, she was using the park as day care it's probably why someone reported her

it's irresponsible but there you go again trying to trivialize and minimalize this neglect im wondering why

[jeff47]

149. Yes, at 9.

Kids can handle far more than you want to believe. The problem isn't the 9-year-old, the problem is your irrational fear.

also spending "a day inthe park" is not what was going on from the article
Debra Harrell, the mother who let her nine-year-old daughter play in a park while she worked her shifts shifts plural multiple - it wasnt a day in the park, she was using the park as day care it's probably why someone reported her

Reading comprehension failure on your part. The story is about multiple days, hence multiple shifts. Two shifts on two days, to be exact.

it's irresponsible but there you go again trying to trivialize and minimalize this neglect im wondering why

Because people living in terror make dumb decisions (Republicans will keep me safe!) and raise incompetent children.

[leftyohiolib]

150. well i think you are wrong and you think i am so there's no point going on with this with u

living in terror what a joke and presumtuous

The story is about multiple days, hence multiple shifts. Two shifts on two days, to be exact. which is what i said. shifts multiple and sure it was only twice just like every drunk that gets pulled over says they only had a couple of beers

[jeff47]

153. You're arguing that 9 year olds are unable to handle playing on their own.

because of dangers that are extremely rare.

That is the very definition of living in terror.

[leftyohiolib]

157. 9yos are capable of playing on their own. what im saying is that a park is not a daycare

and that there is a difference between a parent sending their child out to play and dropping the child off at a park while they go to work.

[leftyohiolib]

151. the police disagree

[jeff47]

152. The police kill unarmed people because they are "a threat".

If you want rational assessment of danger, the police are not the people you want to cite.

[Warpy]

35. Stranger abduction is really very rare.

Most abductions are by non custodial parents.

It was a park with plenty of parents around.

I not only played in a park alone at 9, I'd been walking to parks alone since I turned 6.

The standards of parenting today are stupidly over protective.

Funny, nobody is wondering where that little girl's FATHER was in all this. Seems like he's gotten of Scot free in every way.

[Demobrat]

83. The father ALWAYS gets off scot free

It's always the mothers fault. Always. Father abandons the family so mother has to work two jobs, kid gets in trouble due to lack of supervision, who is to blame? The mother. Always.

[leftyohiolib]

139. not when the father has custody

[Demobrat]

154. When the father has custody

the mother is blamed for not wanting her kids and being a bad mother. When the mother has custody and the dad is nowhere in evidence it's considered normal. Fathers who have custody are considered heroes. Mothers who have custody are just doing their jobs, and probably not very well.

[leftyohiolib]

156. not by me- my brother's wife left him and didnt want custody cause she didnt want

to take the kids out of the environment that they were in - she was a terrible person to my brother but not to her kids. there may women who are bad parents and bad mothers just as with fathers.

[kcr]

92. Her mother arrested and losing her job is much worse

Than the remote risk something like that would happen. This child is in more danger now than she was before.

[Throd]

97. What if a gorilla escaped from the zoo and carried the kid off?

[Action_Patrol]

117. I do.

I welcome our new gorilla overlords.

[think]

19. This is sickening.... /nt

[The Magistrate]

20. This Whole Incident Is Disgusting, Sir

The woman did nothing wrong; whoever called the authorities in needs a serious attitude adjustment.

[laundry_queen]

47. +1 nt

[DirkGently]

29. Oh for Pete's sake. Stupid McCorporation. n/t

[BlueJazz]

49. I know this has been said before but: When I was 9 and my sister 10, my mom let us ....

...go to the city park, library, planetarium and stay nearly the whole day.
We both are well adjusted people.
(ok ok..my sister is)

[X_Digger]

59. Be home before the pole lights come on was commonly heard.

During the summer, it was shower, breakfast, and "Be back before dark!" (We knew that whichever house we were at around lunch time would provide something to nosh on. Sometimes my mom got to feed the pack of us.)

[tblue37]

51. Oh, yeah--that is going to help the mother provide for her daughter.

Attitudes toward the poor, no matter how hard they try to do the right thing, are incredibly punitive in our society.

Instead of providing access to resources that could help the mother adequately provide for the child and offer her a safe place to be while her mother does her best to work and support her child, the state criminalizes her, yanks her daughter out of her care (undoubtedly humiliating both the mother and child and traumatizing both of them in the process), and in the process costs the woman her job.

[Still Sensible]

64. This is ridiculous,

outrageous and an incredibly slippery slope.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

66. So, not only is a poor woman arrested,

she's now fired. Because she had no money.

It's terrible how we treat the lower class of our society...

[NV Whino]

69. Well, that's really productive

Geez Louise. How about solving the problem instead of compounding it?

[questionseverything]

76. no one is mentioning that child services takes the child before the

allegation is proven

that is unconstitutional all by itself

nine years old is old enough to be at a park by yourself

[Arugula Latte]

77. Punished for being poor -- ain't that America.

[etherealtruth]

158. Sure is

[Coventina]

79. I grew up in the 70s, the decade of John Wayne Gacy

And, not only myself, but every kid I knew had unlimited freedom in the summer to go ANYWHERE, walking or biking (and for a kid, a mile & 1/2 is NOTHING on a bike) until dark.
(And in Seattle, in the summertime, "dark" was well after 9 pm!).

There was a park about a mile from where we lived that I would walk or bike (more often bike) to alone or with friends. It was a three mile bike ride around the lake in the park. Sometimes I did that as well.

I did that from the age of 8 on. With no money. No cell phone (obviously).

I regularly babysat my younger siblings from the age of 8 on as well.

Maybe my parents trusted my common sense. Maybe we were lucky.

I do have to say, I probably wouldn't do that now.
Now I live in the Phoenix area and it's about 110 degrees. I won't even let my dogs outside in this weather. It sucks to be a kid in Phoenix.

[Enthusiast]

80. Parenting is hard enough without dealing with assholes.

Way to go, McDonald’s. Assholes.

[Humanist_Activist]

82. I grew up in the 1980s, and by the time I was 9 I rode my bike everywhere...

We had no cell phones, things were actually more dangerous for kids then, and we went to the park, dollar show, strip malls, etc. All the time, the rule was to get home when the streetlights turn on.

We would be gone 6-8 hours a day, if not longer.

[Throd]

96. What happened to this country? When I was nine (1976) I'd ride off on my bike for hours and hours.

"Be home before the street lights come on" was the general rule back then.

[KinMd]

129. Same here!! We'd be gone all day during the summer, and we walked about a mile to elementary school.

[Puzzledtraveller]

160. I recall being 5 and my brother was 10, we would walk about a mile

to a 7-11 and buy candy from money our grandmother gave us, it was never a big deal. This was around 1978, and for years after that alone or with friends I would ride my dirt back all over the neighborhood, exploring, going to the convenient store and as long as I was back by sun down my folks did not worry. People say things havent changed, or that it's subjective, that those were better days but I truly believe they were better days and I am thankful I was able to grow up in at time where you could do those things as a child.

[KinMd]

173. My dad would have ride our bikes to the corner store to get him a pack of Camels

..and they sold them to us. I was maybe 10-12

[treestar]

104. When I was 9 I would have been allowed to go to the park alone

or with other kids the same age group. Is there a time limit on that?

If the mother was at home, a stay at home Mom, the kid could go to the park for hours.

Appalled at the lack of child care opportunities here - and you get tax credits for the cost - some people merely need help navigating systems and such.

[okasha]

110. Why is it considered necessary for a 9-year-old

to have a laptop to entertain herself? What about library books, simple art activities, puzzles and other things she could do to amuse herself at her mom's workplace?

[treestar]

113. I wonder what would happen if she'd let the kid off at the public library

rather than the park? I went to the library alone at 9 and stayed there for ages. And crossed a highway to get there - at least a half hour walk.

[okasha]

120. Nothing, probably.

Libraries are air conditioned and are furnished with drinking fountains and rest rooms over which the staff has some control. They have adult-led free programs for kids. They have computers.

I also went to the library alone at 9. If I failed to appear at the time I was supposed to be home, my mom called the librarian and asked her to pack me off. But--and this is a large qualifier--the city where I grew up was a lot smaller than Little Rock, and you couldn't go half a block without meeting someone you knew, your own friends or your parents'. It wasn't idyllic, but it was a protective environment.

[Starry Messenger]

121. This was actually in North Augusta, SC

A park called Summerfield. The city's population is around 21,000

[okasha]

123. Thank you.

Somewhere I got the impression it was Little Rock. The city where I grew up was somewhat larger, then. This child would no doubt have been fine at the library.

[gollygee]

131. A lot of libraries now have policies against kids being alone there these days

http://www.freerangekids.com/kids-under-12-cant-be-alone-in-library-due-to-dangers-of-stairs-people-furniture/

[leftyohiolib]

141. all these analogies "wow, when i was nine i did 'x' and IM ok" there are kids who played

with guns and turned out fine so based on all the when-i-was-young poor analogies we should be able to let kids play with guns. you honestly dont see a diference btwn the library and the park?

[treestar]

145. Did I say that?

I was getting at the idea it was better to be in the library than the park.

[leftyohiolib]

146. my apologies treestar i misunderstood

[Orrex]

161. I suspect that the library staff would grow to resent their role as babysitter

Because that's how those things go.

I used to work in retail at a small hobby shop in a college town, and local business-owning parents would routinely direct their under-10 kids to hang out at the store for hours on end.

In terms of general safety, the library is probably better than the park, but it's not fair to dump kids on the libary staff either.

[treestar]

172. They might not bother the library staff

I never did, anyway. But then I wasn't there during an entire work shift.

But if the kid could amuse themselves by reading (and they could be on the computer awhile at some libraries), the staff might hardly know they were there.

[Orrex]

174. They "might not" have bothered the retail workers, either, but they did.

I don't doubt that you were a librarian's dream, with your nose pressed to a book and quiet as a mouse. As you note, you didn't have to spend an entire work shift there, either.

A library (or restaurant, or retail establishment) is not a babysitting service or a daycare center. The woman in the OP is in a terrible situation, but it's unreasonable to expect an employee to supervise someone else's kid for free.

[treestar]

175. Well that kid might be like me

Unless there are rules about kids being in there unsupervised, which there might be today, it doesn't have to bother anyone working there.

[Orrex]

178. We're going round and round here

Unless there are rules about kids being in there unsupervised, which there might be today, it doesn't have to bother anyone working there.

On paper, that sounds great. Nothing in my experience suggests that reality would bear this out, however.

Regardless, I maintain that it's unreasonable to use a library (or retail establishment or restaurant, etc.) as a daycare service.

[treestar]

179. When is it being used as a daycare service?

After one hour? Two? When I was there, the librarian didn't know anything about how long I was there - and merely checked out my books at the desk.

[Orrex]

182. The OP was about a shift-length span of time

I would interpret this to mean between six and eight hours. Presumably the McDonalds employee doesn't work just one shift, so we're potentially turning the child loose in the library 35 hours per week.

When is it being used as a daycare service?

If you're asking for a hard, fixed number, then of course I can't give that, because it's entirely situation-specific. How long could the child have hung out at the playground before the authorities got involved?

Even assuming that the libary has no policy about unattended children, I suspect that it becomes an issue at the point when library staff suspects that the child is unsupervised.

Regardless, you are identifying an anomalous case (yourself, a quiet child, in the libary for a relatively brief span) and using that to generalize about any random child spending many hours unsupervised at the library. That's simply not a reasonable extrapolation.

[qazplm]

128. When

I was 9, I roamed around all day for hours during the summer/weekends. As long as I was back by the time the street lamps came on, my parents didn't care. I turned out just fine. I explored, played with other kids, etc. Times are different though, people look at that like it's child abuse now.

[NaturalHigh]

142. When it rains it pours.

This poor lady.

[IronLionZion]

167. If only there was some low-cost day care for the working poor

this would be a good non-profit or charity type of thing to support and it shouldn't cost too much to set up and staff with volunteers or minimum wage staff.

I'm not nearly as old as the "When I was 9..." crowd. So when I was 9, sick motherfuckers would look for children to snatch and abuse. It happened in my small town, it can happen anywhere. You just didn't hear/talk about it much way back in the day. I'm sure many here are misremembering or not even aware of how much rape and violence happened back then. Bad people have always existed. A simple search of news articles might shock you back to reality. There are legit reasons people are paranoid about predators now. Not all predators are adults either. Teenagers can be complete sociopaths. Even teenage girls.

Mo. teen gets life in prison for murder of 9-year-old girl
http://www.cbsnews.com/pictures/mo-teen-gets-life-in-prison-for-murder-of-9-year-old-girl/

[smokey nj]

171. When I was growing up, the city ran free day camps at the pubic schools. They still have the day

camps, but now they charge for it and I think it's pretty pricey. It's sad.

[liberal N proud]

176. By the time I was 9, my mother didn't see me from morning to dark

During the summers, we would go outside, yes outside, and spend the entire day outside.

We would show up for lunch and then again for dinner. But we would be out and in the park, along the railroad tracks watching the action of rail workers or maybe we just were exploring the woods at the edge of town. Oh there was the creek that ran along the edge of town, we all spent many hours exploring the wonders of nature there.

We didn't have cell phones to call anyone if there was danger.

I can't image kids today, no chance to explore the world on their own, how in the hell are they ever going to go out into the world on their own?

[treestar]

180. Me too, and having the cell phone makes a huge difference

In those days, the kid would have to run home if there was trouble - there never was, but still.

Kids in a park would never have been suspicious at all then. Maybe if this girl were part of a group of kids there, that person might not have noticed.

[B Calm]

177. My single father would have been fired back in the 50's. Us three kids practically raised

ourselfs, but we knew dad was doing his best with the hand he was dealt!

[Rolo]

181. Every kid is different

Usually mothers know their own kids & what they can handle. When my daughter was 9, I could have left her all day in the park & feel confident she would be fine. When my son was 9 - not so much.
Some people don't have the luxury of having options. As a parent, I would rather leave my child in a park knowing there would be other parents around than leave my child with a stranger out of desperation.

In this instance, it would not be safer to leave the girl at home. Most thieves return to homes they have stolen from, knowing people will replace things that have been stolen. And what child wants to be cooped up in the house all day.

[Phentex]

183. True...

My friend would not leave her sick 12 year old at home alone for three hours while she worked less than a mile from home. Her kids are scared of everything.