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alsame

(7,784 posts)
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 05:47 PM Jul 2014

US: No link to Russian gov't in plane downing

US: No link to Russian gov't in plane downing

WASHINGTON — Senior U.S. intelligence officials said Tuesday that Russia was responsible for "creating the conditions" that led to the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, but they offered no evidence of direct Russian government involvement.

The intelligence officials were cautious in their assessment, noting that while the Russians have been arming separatists in eastern Ukraine, the U.S. had no direct evidence that the missile used to shoot down the passenger jet came from Russia.

<snip>

But the officials said they did not know who fired the missile or whether any Russian operatives were present at the missile launch. They were not certain that the missile crew was trained in Russia, although they described a stepped-up campaign in recent weeks by Russia to arm and train the rebels, which they say has continued even after the downing of the commercial jetliner.

In terms of who fired the missile, "we don't know a name, we don't know a rank and we're not even 100 percent sure of a nationality," one official said, adding at another point, "There is not going to be a Perry Mason moment here."

http://bostonherald.com/news_opinion/national/2014/07/us_no_link_to_russian_govt_in_plane_downing

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kentuck

(111,052 posts)
1. Interesting development...
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 05:49 PM
Jul 2014

It is my understanding that Ukraine also has these same rockets.

And it is more likely that they would know how to fire them .

But at this time, we simply do not know.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
5. Reports in June were separatists had captured a BUK SAM...
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:02 PM
Jul 2014

...from Ukraine forces. No way of knowing if it was the one fired. Also no way of knowing if separatists had Russian help firing missile, as many separatists are ex-Soviet military and may have had that knowledge.
A further point, the system is designed for several launchers to communicate with a central mobile radar unit, able to distinguish civilian and military aircraft. Had the Russians provided the launchers and ground crew, its reasonable to presume they would have also provided the radar, to prevent such occurrences as happened. That there was no radar, sort of indicates to me a lower level of knowledge...ie: probably not Russians. Also, lack of radar kind of suggests, but certainly doesn't prove, that the fired SAM was from a captured system and they didn't capture the radar, or didn't know it was crucial.

Igel

(35,275 posts)
12. It's a non-development.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 07:32 PM
Jul 2014

Nobody claimed to have a name, military ID, or evidence as to the nationality of the person who shot the missile. In the absence of the serial number of the missile, it'll be impossible to show that even if the Buk-M1 that launched it *was* Russian that the missile itself didn't come from some AA unit in Donets'k or Luhans'k.

It's likely that it was Russian. The one that the rebels captured was reported to have been trashed, and the rebels said the same thing after it was convenient. However they still downed an Antonov and firmly believed that they had downed another Antonov or Il'ushkin when MH17 was downed. Why would they believe that if they knew they didn't have the capability? And who downed the first Antonov if the rebels didn't? The Ukrainians downed their own plane?

That's as sensical as the Russian claim the first time that the Ukrainian border guards came under fire from the Russian side of the border that it was the Ukrainian army that crossed over and assaulted their own guards with Grad rounds. The commander on the ground said that might just be barely plausible if they had taken Grad missile launchers with them in their APCs.

What isn't much at doubt--and for some, in the absence of several independent witnesses with video footage and fingerprints, the proof may eventually only be 99.9999% sure (meaning there's no definite proof!)--is that the insurgency has scores of tanks, dozens of Grads, scores of APCs and armored fighting vehicles that did not come from Ukraine. In more than a couple of cases serial numbers and other documentation say what military base in Russia they came from and how recently they were there. The rebels would have collapsed in June if not for steady supply of troops and materiel from across the border--and it's so important that even as Slov'yansk was ceded, Severodonetsk fell and Lysychans'k is being fought over, Luhansk is surrounded and Donets'k is the object of fighting, the main activity is two locations: Near Marynivka and Izvaryne. Ever hear of them? The first is the closest border crossing with Russia to Donets'k and only became the object of really serious fighting in the last couple of days as Donets'k was cut off from Luhansk and the east. Izvaryne is the border crossing where Luhans'k gets its supplies from, and if Luhansk is going to be unblockaded and defended that area needs to be firmly under the control of the rebels.

You retreat when you need to throw all your effort into ensuring resupply. And for that they need the Russian border.

The Ukr troops near Marynivka have another complaint. They're being attacked from two different directions. The first is from the Ukrainian side of the border. Their backs are up against the Russian side. But they also get Grad fire from that side. There's nice video footage of a Grad firing at the border post in the east taken from about a mile inside the Russian border. Three different vantage points. Posted by Russians who noticed it and decided to step out and record it, then post it. "Look at this--cool!"

The closest thing to a development here is that reporters have been diverted and have assumed that unless you have guilt established beyond all doubt of Russia's direct involvement in the firing of the missile that downed the plane that Russia is completely non-complicit.

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
2. Which is what I said a week ago.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 05:51 PM
Jul 2014

There would be no way of knowing where the separatists got the missile system, and no way of knowing if Russians helped operate it.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
4. odd dynamic--off the record briefings are a lot more cautious
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 05:56 PM
Jul 2014

than on the record statements

the key piece of evidence to be released would be the plume of smoke from the launch site, I would personally think--that would be enough to completely seal the deal as to which side shot it down (though it's pretty firmly sealed already imo)

 

HooptieWagon

(17,064 posts)
7. I think its pretty well determined rebels fired it.
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:06 PM
Jul 2014

The missile came from rebel-held territory, and rebels had already shot down a couple Ukrainian military transports. Rebels have no aircraft, theres no instance of Ukraine forces firing a SAM, and knowing rebels don't have aircraft they probably don't have itchy trigger fingers.

 

KittyWampus

(55,894 posts)
8. Boston Herald is rightwing POS pathetic excuse of a newspaper. Any reporting coming out of it
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:08 PM
Jul 2014

is crap. It may very well be true, but I'd wait to read it from some more reputable reporter/paper/news outlet.

anti partisan

(429 posts)
10. If only we would make as much of a stink about every time American weaponry led to tragedy...
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:30 PM
Jul 2014

maybe there would be something resembling peace in the world.

We are by far the world's largest weapons manufacturer, and it is our weapons which coincidentally cause more tragedy than any others, but of course how dare the Russians arm any rebels even though that's exactly what we've been doing for the last half a century!

I am not suggesting that we get off Russia's case, merely that we apply the same standards when discussing America's foreign policy and its consequences.

anti partisan

(429 posts)
11. And may I add of COURSE the Russian government isn't behind the plane shooting
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 06:31 PM
Jul 2014

It would be completely ludicrous to think that they would be behind something which would cause them such bad publicity, while they are at the same time engaged in such a dedicated propaganda effort to improve their image to the rest of the world. This is just Common Sense 101.

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