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nikto

(3,284 posts)
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 10:32 PM Jul 2014

Let's make a LIST of all the BENEFITS TO PUTIN of the Malaysian airliner tragedy in Ukraine

Bad Guys do bad things that benefit them.

That's why they're bad guys, right?


Cui bono ("who benefits&quot is an important guiding principle in this case, IMO.

So let's make a list of......
BENEFITS TO PUTIN RESULTING FROM THE UKRAINE AIRLINER TRAGEDY:

1.

2.

3.

4.

5.

ETC ETC



Please help me.
I haven't been able to figure out any.

Surely, somebody out there can help me?
51 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies
Let's make a LIST of all the BENEFITS TO PUTIN of the Malaysian airliner tragedy in Ukraine (Original Post) nikto Jul 2014 OP
That's what I was thinking - cui bono? djean111 Jul 2014 #1
it was a giant fuck-up magical thyme Jul 2014 #27
Smart, rational response nikto Jul 2014 #32
Indeed...and turning that around... KoKo Jul 2014 #2
Who most benefits? That is always my first question malaise Jul 2014 #41
I wish more people would jamzrockz Jul 2014 #48
"cui bono" regarding a blunder is nonsensical geek tragedy Jul 2014 #3
Bingo! nikto Jul 2014 #9
He is absolutely pissed. joshcryer Jul 2014 #14
Yep. He has his own Col. Kurtz, but he played geek tragedy Jul 2014 #16
Agreed customerserviceguy Jul 2014 #51
The available evidence indicates... Spider Jerusalem Jul 2014 #4
You win the thread Electric Monk Jul 2014 #7
I was reacting to sentiments I'd read and seen in cartoons like these... nikto Jul 2014 #10
And have you analyzed Putin's initial claim that HE was the target? Of course, his blm Jul 2014 #17
It's pretty hard to a fan of Putin nikto Jul 2014 #29
Get real - no one claimed Putin had it done. Most are saying it was done without blm Jul 2014 #5
Bullshit Liberal_Dog Jul 2014 #22
Then Patrick Murphy is a piss-poor analyst. Throd Jul 2014 #23
Murphy's early speculation is NOT the overwhelming belief being discussed on broadcast news blm Jul 2014 #25
Exactly---That crap is what this thread is reacting to nikto Jul 2014 #31
That's absolutely untrue. I monitor news closely and you're exaggerating. You have yet to blm Jul 2014 #47
You missed it nikto Jul 2014 #35
Baloney. You are exaggerating to suit your complaint. blm Jul 2014 #45
Post removed Post removed Jul 2014 #6
I like you. joshcryer Jul 2014 #13
He's gets some cool secrets he can bury in his mystery hole in Siberia Brother Buzz Jul 2014 #8
Not a mystery, it is obvious something impacted the earth and walked off to the NE Rex Jul 2014 #11
Online apologists ramp up the rhetoric. joshcryer Jul 2014 #12
Unlike purposeful actions.. sendero Jul 2014 #15
But false-flag attacks do nikto Jul 2014 #36
I'm going with Occam's Razor.. sendero Jul 2014 #38
Putin gave a loaded shotgun to a monkey. Throd Jul 2014 #18
Exactly, Sir The Magistrate Jul 2014 #19
Unless the man's name is Vladimir Putin Ex-KGB superstar davidpdx Jul 2014 #39
Bingo! blm Jul 2014 #26
mmm hmm. PeaceNikki Jul 2014 #34
Like this: tblue37 Jul 2014 #44
Exactly like that. Throd Jul 2014 #49
Dead AIDS researchers Bad Thoughts Jul 2014 #20
Wait. Putin wouldn't do something stupid? DirkGently Jul 2014 #21
Your entire premise falls down if this is a negligent accident. You understand that, right? nt stevenleser Jul 2014 #24
Wrong list. What are the benefits of Eastern Ukraine falling under Russian control? hack89 Jul 2014 #28
Can I help you? If you think your post makes sense, then no... joeybee12 Jul 2014 #30
The rebels assumed it was a Ukrainian cargo/troop transport NickB79 Jul 2014 #33
So many winners-of-the-internet here nikto Jul 2014 #37
who benefits from having armed separatists in the Ukraine? KittyWampus Jul 2014 #40
When you are a bad guy...... NCTraveler Jul 2014 #42
It is very one-sided of you to drag false-flag ops into this. reorg Jul 2014 #43
From your lips to Bill Kristol's ears nikto Jul 2014 #50
I'm going to try and fill in one of your blanks: nilesobek Jul 2014 #46
 

djean111

(14,255 posts)
1. That's what I was thinking - cui bono?
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 10:35 PM
Jul 2014

And no, I am not a member of a Putin fan club.
Just, for some reason, cynical.
Maybe it was just a giant fuck-up.

 

magical thyme

(14,881 posts)
27. it was a giant fuck-up
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:22 PM
Jul 2014

Neither Putin nor the pro-Russian rebels stood to gain anything but the world united against them.

Ukraine gains world sympathy, so possibly a false flag operation to gin up support.

But most likely Murphy's Law meets Occam's Razor. People with the arms to shoot down airliners, but without the means to positively identify them, in a civil war area where they have been, and continue to, shoot down military aircraft.

 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
32. Smart, rational response
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 08:30 PM
Jul 2014

And any rational response must entertain (as does yours) at least the remote possibility of a false-flag attack.
The cui bono requires it until we know everything.

 

jamzrockz

(1,333 posts)
48. I wish more people would
Thu Jul 24, 2014, 01:46 PM
Jul 2014

have asked the same question during the whole Syria (and even Libyan) crisis.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
3. "cui bono" regarding a blunder is nonsensical
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 10:42 PM
Jul 2014

he never planned for his proxy goons to shoot a passenger jet down. but he was reckless enough to give those drunken goons the means and opportunity to do so

 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
9. Bingo!
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 04:32 AM
Jul 2014

Last edited Wed Jul 23, 2014, 08:35 PM - Edit history (2)

That may be it.

If so, what do you think Putin would order to have done to the dumb guys
who made the decision & shot the missile?
Couldn't be pretty.

This makes Putin look so bad.

He's gotta' be super-pissed.

Assuming it actually is a blunder (and not a false-flag).

But it is looking more like a blunder as time passes.





Still, how many champagne toasts do you think
William Kristol and Max Boot have already had over this?

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
14. He is absolutely pissed.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 05:17 AM
Jul 2014

He spent millions supporting the separatists and they are collapsing.

But it doesn't make him look bad because he has 100% control over the media and his ratings are at an all time high because propaganda says things like "Putin could not have done it because it'd make him look bad."

customerserviceguy

(25,183 posts)
51. Agreed
Fri Jul 25, 2014, 12:29 AM
Jul 2014

He didn't think his comrades would do something so stupid with the 'toys' he provided them. Now, its blown up in his face, maybe he'll be a bit more cautious when he wants to take back the Baltic states. Maybe not.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
4. The available evidence indicates...
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 10:44 PM
Jul 2014

that the rebels shot down the airliner after mistaking it for a Ukrainian military plane. Which you'd know if you'd actually been following any of the news. The fact that you apparently don't know that is a pretty good indicator that you have no idea what you're talking about.

 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
10. I was reacting to sentiments I'd read and seen in cartoons like these...
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 04:45 AM
Jul 2014
http://jeffreyhill.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341d417153ef01a3fd34f3ec970b-800wi

http://static1.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1873572.1405837746!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/index_635_390/putin-trophies.jpg

http://gulfnews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1362011!/image/4277082435.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_475/4277082435.jpg



When admittedly the truth appears to be more like...









That, ofcourse, is assuming there is no neocon involvement and it's not a false-flag incident set-up by
big money in a chaotic part of the world.

But that's just silly.
I know, I know, America doesn't do dishonest stuff like that, except maybe The Maine,
Pear Harbor pre-knowledge questions,
Gulf Of Tonkin, and WMDs in Iraq.

But not anymore.


blm

(112,920 posts)
17. And have you analyzed Putin's initial claim that HE was the target? Of course, his
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 09:27 AM
Jul 2014

veracity is unimpeachable, because if he was a lying, murderous snake he could NEVER have amassed the enormous fortune he now has, could he?

 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
29. It's pretty hard to a fan of Putin
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 08:24 PM
Jul 2014

Last edited Thu Jul 24, 2014, 03:51 AM - Edit history (2)

The ones I really feel sorry for are the Ukraine citizens.
They are caught between the ruthless (but recently bumbling) Putin and his voracious Oligarchs
on one side,
and big European interest$, the neocons and voracious entities like the IMF and World Bank,
on the other.

Talk about Charybdis and Scylla, rock and a hard place, etc.

I don't believe either side has Ukraine's interests in mind, and both see the Ukraine as a rich prize
to be won and exploited in a vicious, high-stakes global dog-eat-dog geopolitical brawl.

blm

(112,920 posts)
5. Get real - no one claimed Putin had it done. Most are saying it was done without
Tue Jul 22, 2014, 10:44 PM
Jul 2014

authorization, most likely by over zealous militia.

Why did you find the need to build a straw man argument?

And..... have you analyzed Putin's immediate claim that HE was the target?

Liberal_Dog

(11,075 posts)
22. Bullshit
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 11:23 AM
Jul 2014

Congressman Patrick Murphy claimed on live TV(The Ed Show) that Putin had it done in retaliation for sanctions.

Throd

(7,208 posts)
23. Then Patrick Murphy is a piss-poor analyst.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 11:54 AM
Jul 2014

Putin is an authoritarian dickhead, but he did not want the airliner shot down.

blm

(112,920 posts)
25. Murphy's early speculation is NOT the overwhelming belief being discussed on broadcast news
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:20 PM
Jul 2014

programs.

Now - can you post your analysis of Putin's claim on day one that HE was the target? Or, is Murphy's lonely comment the only one you want to analyze and debate?

 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
31. Exactly---That crap is what this thread is reacting to
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 08:27 PM
Jul 2014

Although the media-frame seems to be shifting now to the "negligence" angle,
which seems more plausible.

But the "Putin did it intentionally" angle was milked substantially over the first few days,
by media and politicos alike.

blm

(112,920 posts)
47. That's absolutely untrue. I monitor news closely and you're exaggerating. You have yet to
Thu Jul 24, 2014, 01:33 PM
Jul 2014

offer an 'analysis' of Putin's claim being spread across Russia media that HE was the actual target.

 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
35. You missed it
Thu Jul 24, 2014, 03:57 AM
Jul 2014

There were many cartoons, statements by pols, etc portraying the incident as
a deliberate Putin attack (several cartoons portrayed Putin with airliner wreckage on his mantel, like a trophy.

Admittedly, that was in the first few days (you obviously must have missed that), and
the latest "negligence" media frame is actually just from the last day or so.


Or maybe you just forgot.

Response to nikto (Original post)

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
13. I like you.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 05:15 AM
Jul 2014

Put down the beer. I've had legit death threats from Russian, Jobbik types, back in 2011.

In fact if you dig enough you'll see that a lot of the online presence is related to Jobbik as a sort of twisted fascist nexus for this crap.

The threats were so legit I had to move because 1) no one and I mean no one has my address at any given time (except for blood relatives) and 2) they found my address.

 

Rex

(65,616 posts)
11. Not a mystery, it is obvious something impacted the earth and walked off to the NE
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 05:04 AM
Jul 2014

of the picture. Still so hot from re-entry that it killed the vegetation around as it walked off. Can even see where it stood still for a bit, probably thinking about which direction to the nearest space port.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
12. Online apologists ramp up the rhetoric.
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 05:10 AM
Jul 2014

So that as he saves face from backing down in Ukraine no one questions his ability to lead.

Next?

 

nikto

(3,284 posts)
36. But false-flag attacks do
Thu Jul 24, 2014, 04:01 AM
Jul 2014

It's always wise to ask, cui bono, until one is sure what occurred was not deliberate.

sendero

(28,552 posts)
38. I'm going with Occam's Razor..
Thu Jul 24, 2014, 07:14 AM
Jul 2014

... on this one. The rebels were the only ones in the area using missiles to down aircraft. They were given a sophisticated system for which they undoubtedly were not well trained to use. A plane was not on it's normal flight path (for which some blame might be assigned elsewhere, but most of the blame goes to whoever actually shot the missile). Someone saw a plane and got excited and pushed the button.

I'd lay 10-1 odds it happened just about like that.

The Magistrate

(95,237 posts)
19. Exactly, Sir
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 11:05 AM
Jul 2014

"If a man gives a gun to a chimp, and the chimp shoots someone, you don't blame the chimp."

DirkGently

(12,151 posts)
21. Wait. Putin wouldn't do something stupid?
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 11:14 AM
Jul 2014

But of course he would.

Forgive me if that's not where you're going, but I believe the current narrative is that Putin armed rebels in order to attack the Ukrainian military, and they *screwed up* and shot an airliner. That has not been definitively proven, but the fact that it would not work to Putin's advantage is not evidence that's not what hapened.

If there's one consistent fact about the way world powers work, it's that they screw up. Constantly.

It is always extremely plausible that a government actor did something that "didn't make sense" or "didn't work in their favor."

Again, may not be where you're headed with this, but the notion sometimes floated that however things turn out, someone must have planned it that way is not a good principle. Most of what goes on in the world is not thought through well at all, and it is the most common thing in the world for a government or a military to do something that blows up in their face.

Edit:

There were more reports today of rebels shooting more Ukrainian military craft with their Russian SAMs, just as they were doing before the airliner strike. So it looks like the only question is "Could they have shot down an airliner by mistake?"

We've shot down airliners by mistake. Russia has done it before, too. That part of the story, at least, is not wildly unlikely in the slightest.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
28. Wrong list. What are the benefits of Eastern Ukraine falling under Russian control?
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 12:32 PM
Jul 2014

that is the question.

The MH17 was a tragic error resulting from Putin destabilizing the region to further Russian influence. It was not a deliberate act.

 

joeybee12

(56,177 posts)
30. Can I help you? If you think your post makes sense, then no...
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 08:26 PM
Jul 2014

Bad guys make mistakes...Putin supplied the weapons to the rebels, they shot it down, probably accidnetally, but they still bear responsibility, as does the scum Putin.

NickB79

(19,113 posts)
33. The rebels assumed it was a Ukrainian cargo/troop transport
Wed Jul 23, 2014, 08:52 PM
Jul 2014

Since they openly bragged about shooting down an AN-26 at the SAME TIME the Boeing went down on Twitter and Facebook, and have downed other AN-26's before then.

No AN-26's were lost that day.

So, once you put that vital piece of info in, your analysis gets a whole lot more interesting, as the rebels and Putin had a LOT to gain by destroying Ukrainian air assets.

 

NCTraveler

(30,481 posts)
42. When you are a bad guy......
Thu Jul 24, 2014, 09:30 AM
Jul 2014

and you heavily arm a bunch of complete idiots, you end up with unintended results. Common sense.

reorg

(3,317 posts)
43. It is very one-sided of you to drag false-flag ops into this.
Thu Jul 24, 2014, 09:39 AM
Jul 2014

Who do you think has anything to gain from irrational speculation? Putin!

There are so many arguments in this thread I can hardly count them, so don't you make stuff up:


The rebels bragged, but then they stopped bragging because instead of a military plane an airliner was shot down. Whose fault was that? Putin's!

Bad guys make mistakes. Sometimes mistakes are perhaps not mistakes, but sometimes they are, probably. Whose fault is that? Putin's!

It may have been a tragic error, but Putin doesn't care. So, who wins? You guessed it, Putin!

Negligence might have been a factor. Stuff happens if you don't get your troops in order. So, who is responsible for that, hm? That's right, Putin!

But you fool yourself if you think Putin wouldn't do something stupid. Oh no, he does, so once again we know where to put the blame, right? Putin!

That's even more the case if he was so negligent and stupid at the same time to put a freaking CHIMP in charge! Damn, Putin!

These drunken goons made a decision and, guess what, a plane was hit and people died. We have nobody else to blame other than Putin.

He could just as well have given the direct order to shoot it down.


Anyway, as you can see, all roads lead to Rome, there is a mountain of evidence, the preponderance of which tilting towards the blundering reckless evildoer dictating fascist who is still in the business of selling oil and gas to China and Europe while cowardly hiding behind his atomic bombs.

The only possible benefit of a false flag operation by the Ukrainians could have been to make those who are still blind open their eyes and recognize what a monster he is. Gladly, we have been spared this sacrifice.

nilesobek

(1,423 posts)
46. I'm going to try and fill in one of your blanks:
Thu Jul 24, 2014, 10:54 AM
Jul 2014

The rebels do benefit from the shootdown. Everyone but the Ukrainian Air Force is avoiding Eastern Ukraine airspace which favors the rebels who seem to have nice SAMs with probably an inexhaustible resupply of missiles through a porous Ukraine/Russian border.

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