General Discussion
Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsIt looks like it's time again. Where do you stand politically?
Not what party, or what politician. This isn't a question about elections or campaigns. Where do you stand on the issues? I know where I stand, and it's not where the vast majority of elected Democrats do.
I don't like the various labels we use in the U.S., because I find them too imprecise and too open to manipulation and interpretation. My favorite structure for determining where I stand is the political compass. I like it for a few reasons. First of all, it's not U.S.-centric. It includes the rest of the world. Secondly, it's based, not on party or speeches, but on record.
I know many DUers don't like it, because their favorite Democrats tend to fall in the "wrong" quadrant for what the Democratic Party's traditional, at least in my lifetime, positions "ought" to be. It provides cognitive dissonance to partisans.
Fine.
I'm a leftist libertarian on the political compass, a bit further south and to the left of the Dalai Lama. I suspect that many here, like some elected Democrats, will have shifted on the chart since '08, just as they've shifted their positions on issues to fit their politician. I've remained the same.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/analysis2
MohRokTah
(15,429 posts)Isn't that site sponsored by the Libertarian Party?
merrily
(45,251 posts)"Libertarian," I'd say that is a real possibility.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)And "libertarian" is not as defined by the American libertarian party. It's not about party.
merrily
(45,251 posts)On the chart, the flip side of Libertarian is Authoritarian. However you want it worded, the point stands.
And "libertarian" is not as defined by the American libertarian party.
Who said it was?
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)"Libertarian" is the opposite of "authoritarian". Small-l "libertarian" generally refers to advocacy of liberty in a political sense and doesn't have anything to do with the capital-L "Libertarian Party", who adopted the name.
And, on edit, the site seems to be UK-based: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_compass#Politicalcompass.org
And the server is in fact in London, according to a whois search.
merrily
(45,251 posts)Also, I understood that it is a European site.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)merrily
(45,251 posts)You replied to my Post 29. In Post 29, I specified to Wolf that I was not defining Libertarian in terms of the (US) Libertarian Party. Conversely, I never mentioned the US Party.
I think both you and the OP took my first response a lot more literally and broadly than I meant it. (I am not saying it was an unfair reading of my post, just that I didn't make the best word choices in that post. I was too flippant.)
But, I do think that choosing Libertarian and Authoritarian as your two poles says something about your ideology. And "libertarian" is not totally disconnected from the ideology of the Libertarian Party. (While I don't define "libertarian" only in terms of the Libertarian Party, I don't think agree they have nothing to do with each other, either.)
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)The word "libertarian" long predates the use of it by Ayn Rand cultists and has a perfectly legitimate meaning that's perfectly applicable as "the opposite of authoritarian".
LWolf
(46,179 posts)Libertarian vs Authoritarian, and Right vs Left, which seems to, in this case, correlate to individualism vs collectivism.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)Here's the sites' only mention I can find of the Libertarian Party:
The usual understanding of anarchism as a left wing ideology does not take into account the neo-liberal "anarchism" championed by the likes of Ayn Rand, Milton Friedman and America's Libertarian Party, which couples social Darwinian right-wing economics with liberal positions on most social issues.
polichick
(37,152 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)shifting further and further to the right.
Ron Obvious
(6,261 posts)And yet I detest the Free Market true believers that make up the Libertarian party, so I will remain a Democrat for now.
I generally call myself a European-style social democrat if anyone asks.
polichick
(37,152 posts)LWolf
(46,179 posts)per the political compass is not the same thing as the American Libertarian Party.
Spider Jerusalem
(21,786 posts)-7.12, -6.31...about the same as when I've taken this before.
LeftishBrit
(41,190 posts)Pretty much where I usually am.
I think this is originally British; not Libertarian party; but using 'Libertarian' in its older, civil-liberties sense. I would, however, take the scores of the politicians mentioned with a grain of salt, as they presumably have not taken the test.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)How can you determine where politicians are honestly at without asking them?
How can you tell where they're honestly at by asking them? Especially around election time. We rely on reports, parliamentary voting records, manifestos and actions that speak much louder than words. It takes us a great deal longer than simply having the politician take the test but it's also a far more accurate assessment. In our early experience, politicians taking the test often responded in ways that conflicted with their actions but conformed to the prevailing mood of the electorate.
We are occasionally asked about publishing the individual responses of politicians. We frown on this. The propositions are too vague to be considered statements of policy, and the individual responses are not significant in themselves. When summed to give an economic and social score, however, they provide an accurate profile of a mental state.
LeftishBrit
(41,190 posts)Since both flip-flop, it was not that easy to do, but I got:
Miliband: Economic -3.62; Social -2.36
Cameron: Economic 5.12; Social 0.51
Thus, Miliband is certainly considerably to my own right, but still left-of-centre. Cameron is economically right-wing, but socially middle-of-the-road. This corresponds to my general impression of both. I may have been slightly too charitable to Miliband on economic issues; but I don't think he's as RW as portrayed by the site.
Of course, I could be wrong; but so, I think, could the site-owners.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)what they say about their policies, or what they do?
I don't think the common left/right paradigm fits here.
All such constructs could be wrong. I use this one because I find it accurate for me, and for the public figures that I know. I'm not British, so I don't have any knowledge of cameron or miliband.
muriel_volestrangler
(101,146 posts)I find it hard to believe there's that much distance between Francois Hollande and Ed Miliband.
So I just did it for Miliband, and I reckoned Economic -1.00; Social -3.79 . I may have put some of his social views as 'strong' a bit often (sometimes it's hard to know how strongly someone else feels), but I think we're both closer to seeing his opinions than the site is.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)onehandle
(51,122 posts)LWolf
(46,179 posts)MineralMan
(146,189 posts)My problem with this whole thing is that none of the well-known people shown has actually answered the questions personally. Instead, someone unnamed has filled it out for them. Why is that a problem. Well, since I've seen the thing, I have tried several times to see whether I could position myself anywhere on the chart I wanted to. Sure enough, I could. If I answer the questions honestly, I end up in the green, but I can answer the questions in a way that will put me in any quadrant I wish. So can most intelligent people.
So, since nobody well-known whose name and position appears on this chart has actually answered the questions for themselves, their inclusion on this is meaningless and can be easily manipulated.
I reject the entire concept of placing people by answering questions for them. That makes the chart meaningless, and is why I don't bother with it any longer.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)MineralMan
(146,189 posts)No direct input from a person means that that person's placement is inaccurate. How inaccurate? Depends, I guess, on who is answering for that person, along with the invalid test-taker's biases. The fact that they refuse to show the actual "answers" they supplied is further demonstration that the process is unreliable and not transparent.
Absolutely worthless, in other words, protestations and all.
ETA: What is transparent is how to manipulate the thing. I experimented with it the very first time I tried it, and found that I could place the results anywhere on the chart I wished to. It was as simple as can be. And I had nothing to do with creating the system. Imagine what someone with intimate knowledge of the scoring system could do. And so such a person has done with the political figures shown. Meaningless stuff, really. It can give someone who provides honest answers some idea of where they are in the political spectrum, but cannot be used to place others without exposing biases.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)Direct input from a politician is not accurate. It's designed to reflect whatever the politician wants it to. Record counts a hell of a lot more than words.
Walking shows more than talking.
MineralMan
(146,189 posts)Dawgs
(14,755 posts)Mine----
Economic Left/Right: -8.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.67
merrily
(45,251 posts)make it less accurate, not more accurate.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)rare few. It isn't difficult to place most of ours on that chart simply by watching their votes.
MineralMan
(146,189 posts)I think most people fail to actually judge most politicians accurately, even on individual issues. Too many variables exist between the real opinions of a politician and how they vote on a particular question.
But, you have a different opinion. That's cool.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)votes from the perspective of their electorate, don't really count. But someone who consistently votes pro-corporate and war mongering FP such as continuing to fund wrong wars, like Iraq eg, and FOR Right Wing SC justices, those are generally far to the right, no matter what letter they place after the names.
We don't need charts to determine these things, so I agree regarding criticism of a chart, but it's really not hard to find out where a Politician stands on the most important issues. Actions speak louder than words.
MineralMan
(146,189 posts)I knew that already. But thanks for confirming it.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)MineralMan
(146,189 posts)That's often my choice for your replies.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)no matter how carefully chosen. Did you know that?
I'm a Liberal, Liberals are notoriously thick skinned, or is it something else?
Lol!
closeupready
(29,503 posts)devils chaplain
(602 posts)[img][/img]
Probably because I didn't do very many "Strongly" answers. A lot of the questions had a little bit of an argument to be made from the other side.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)as Americans understand the term.
devils chaplain
(602 posts)brooklynite
(93,834 posts)The AUTHORITARIAN-LIBERTARIAN axis doesn't exclusively reflect levels political power-grabbing; it also reflect the desire for Government intervention in economics and social policy. If you believe in environmental regulation, bank and financial regulation, minimum wages, a social safety net, etc. You're inching further and further up the chart.
Jamaal510
(10,893 posts)KamaAina
(78,249 posts)Other notable residents of Quadrant III include Gandhi and MLK.
Alittleliberal
(528 posts)I would imagine my answers on drugs and sex got me there for libertarianism.
http://www.politicalcompass.org/printablegraph?ec=-8.00&soc=-6.36
Xyzse
(8,217 posts)Your political compass
Economic Left/Right: -6.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.64
merrily
(45,251 posts)I don't flip flop based on what a political hero is doing. Indeed, I don't think I have political heroes.
I know where I stand on issues. That's easy.
What to do about how you feel about the issues is a more complicated, and, to me, more relevant, question than where on a chart my "dot" is.
what DO you do about your positions?
Edited to add: I ask, because I'm often at a loss when it comes to making a discernible shift.
merrily
(45,251 posts)that are always perfectly consistent with each other. However, on this board, various terms of service circumscribe my responses. For example, some things that I do and would like to urge others to do, are not strictly legal. For example, civil disobedience is illegal. Noble, maybe, maybe not, but definitely illegal. And advocating illegal behavior violates the TOS. That's just one example.
In the realm of things that are legal are things that try to hit businesses in the pocketbook, like economic boycotts and joining picket lines.
Voting--almost a case by case determination. And usually do not make a ripple.
As I said, for me these things are a lot more complex than a chart. I don't have perfect answers by any means. And that is a reason that I wish we could discuss more things freely.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)and that's frustrating. Because you are right, there is usually not a ripple.
I don't see the political position we claim as what we do, anyway. I just get really, really frustrated by the misuse and abuse of political labels all the time, but especially heading into a campaign season. I can see, for example, that we're going to be hearing about how HRC is a liberal all the way to the convention, just as in '08 we were bombarded with the "Obama is not dlc" talking point. Neither of those are "wrong." They're also not complete nor completely accurate.
I like having a definition that steps outside the narrow American crop. I also like the cognitive dissonance that makes it harder for anyone to act like the person they vote for truly represents them.
Tierra_y_Libertad
(50,414 posts)Martin Eden
(12,801 posts)Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)that esteemed gentleman was a right wing kook on LGBT issues, he said some terrible things and if he is any form of standard, all I can say is this is a Straight Person's Thang.
It's funny to me how those who present themselves as super doper lefty always make room for the homophobic crap. Not changed since the 80's...but Dalai Lama has changed, which is good, but his history is one of hate speech and judgmental intolerance.
Dalai Lama on same sex relations: what we Buddhists call bad sexual conduct. Sexual organs were created for reproduction between the male element and the female elementand everything that deviates from that is not acceptable from a Buddhist point of view.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)"Liberal" can be interpreted a lot of different ways, but it's not on this particular structure.
Bluenorthwest
(45,319 posts)Clearly the facts make you uncomfortable, but it is you who is touting this chart. What would you prefer that quadrant to be called? 'Libertarian Left'? What's so libertarian about attacking gay people with religious dogma? You tell me. Using any verbiage you wish to use, I've got larger concerns than vocabulary choices. Do you?
LWolf
(46,179 posts)The facts do not make me uncomfortable at all.
And before you want me to talk about what's libertarian or not, define libertarian. Are you using the narrow American definition correlating to the Libertarian Party, the definition given here, or something else?
I've got many concerns. One of my large concerns involves propaganda. That uses words, and manipulates, spins, and twists those words. That's politics.
So yes, if we're going to start the primary wars already, before the midterms, by declaring politicians to be "liberal," or "progressive" or whatever vague, misused term suits, I'm going to talk about the labels.
And not because I want to vilify or praise the Dalai Lama.
TBF
(31,919 posts)Way down in the bottom left corner as usual ...
Economic Left/Right: -7.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.72
sakabatou
(42,082 posts)bigwillq
(72,790 posts)minivan2
(214 posts)Economic Left/Right: -6.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.87
I'm shocked at how libertarian I am.
lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)Which makes me wonder what you'd have to do to get in the blue quadrant. Eat babies? Since I've never seen Obama eat a baby, I question the methodology.
DEMTough
(90 posts)Economic: Left, -7.12
Social: Libertarian, -6.82
Agschmid
(28,749 posts)Economic Left/Right: -5.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.03
Guess I belong here...!
Blue_In_AK
(46,436 posts)Economic Left/Right: -6.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.69
Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)Economic Left/Right: -8.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -7.69
I have noticed it has crept left/libertarian over the many years I've taken it. Thanks a lot, DU.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)I think it's a corrective action. I might not have shifted if I weren't trying to halt the dangerous listing toward destruction threatening to capsize the nation.
Ruby the Liberal
(26,216 posts)Wow - I am WAY farther left than I recall in taking that test in the past. 5 left and 1 down from the Dalai Lama.
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Economic Left/Right: -8.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -6.36
Dragonfli
(10,622 posts)About 7 years ago I was about in the middle of the green quadrant, I guess I'm becoming a bit "red"
Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)When I first took this test sooo many years ago, I was a bit left/under Ghandi. I admit I have become somewhat radicalized , and I am OK with that.
LWolf
(46,179 posts)I think it's a natural reaction to the way the nation has moved; we move the other way to balance the ship.
abelenkpe
(9,933 posts)kickysnana
(3,908 posts)nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)I think both my scores were well under -8.
Orsino
(37,428 posts)Economic Left/Right: -8.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.21