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Related: Editorials & Other Articles, Issue Forums, Alliance Forums, Region ForumsRobert Parry: The Mystery of a Ukrainian Army ‘Defector’.
Parry suggests we abandon the kind of "group think" that brought us the Iraq War and conduct a "serious and impartial investigation" instead. A very sane suggestion. The article is well worth reading.
http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/22/the-mystery-of-a-ukrainian-army-defector/
Exclusive: U.S. intelligence officials suggest that the person who fired the missile that downed Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 may have been a defector from the Ukrainian army, an apparent attempt to explain why some CIA analysts thought satellite images revealed men in Ukrainian army uniforms manning the missile battery, writes Robert Parry.
By Robert Parry
The Mystery of a Ukrainian Army Defector
July 22, 2014
As the U.S. government seeks to build its case blaming eastern Ukrainian rebels and Russia for the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, the evidence seems to be getting twisted to fit the preordained conclusion, including a curious explanation for why the troops suspected of firing the fateful missile may have been wearing Ukrainian army uniforms.
On Tuesday, mainstream journalists, including for the Los Angeles Times and the Washington Post, were given a briefing about the U.S. intelligence information that supposedly points the finger of blame at the rebels and Russia. While much of this circumstantial case was derived from postings on social media, the briefings also addressed the key issue of who fired the Buk anti-aircraft missile that is believed to have downed the airliner killing all 298 people onboard.
After last Thursdays shoot-down, I was told that U.S. intelligence analysts were examining satellite imagery that showed the crew manning the suspected missile battery wearing what looked like Ukrainian army uniforms, but my source said the analysts were still struggling with whether that essentially destroyed the U.S. governments case blaming the rebels.
The Los Angeles Times article on Tuesdays briefing seemed to address the same information this way: U.S. intelligence agencies have so far been unable to determine the nationalities or identities of the crew that launched the missile. U.S. officials said it was possible the SA-11 [anti-aircraft missile] was launched by a defector from the Ukrainian military who was trained to use similar missile systems.
That statement about a possible defector might explain why some analysts thought they saw soldiers in Ukrainian army uniforms tending to the missile battery in eastern Ukraine. But there is another obvious explanation that the U.S. intelligence community seems unwilling to accept: that the missile may have been launched by someone working for the Ukrainian military.
more...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)...
"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk Peoples Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.
"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.
No one thinks the Ukrainians shot the plane down, except outright shills for Moscow.
Even the militia fighters (the ones not serving Moscow) are saying the Russian government and its shills like Parry are full of it.
Karmadillo
(9,253 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)that it was probably the Ukrainians who did this.
Trying to deflect blame from where it OBVIOUSLY lies.
Even separatists are admitting that it was separatists who shot it down.
Think about that. The guys shooting at the Ukrainian government are more honest on this than Parry and his ilk are.
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)about nothing. Your dogma-based certainty is as disturbing as it is silly.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)take, for example, climate change deniers.
that's what this crap from Parry is
Octafish
(55,745 posts)The difference, you should know, is Parry bases his reportage on facts and the climate science deniers, don't.
pampango
(24,692 posts)in the republican party. If your world view precludes the truth of a certain set of "facts" then no amount of evidence will change that.
tech3149
(4,452 posts)That coming from Washington and New York or that from Moscow? We all already know that governments lie to their citizens and the world to sell their view of the world and their specific interest no matter how deluded.
I keep going back to knowing and understanding historical facts to understand current affairs. With that reference, I can't help but hold the US more responsible than Russia for the tribulations and tragedy that we deal with today.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)trying to peddle.
...
"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk Peoples Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.
"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/us-ukraine-crisis-commander-exclusive-idUSKBN0FS1V920140723
Y'all are more eager to shift the blame from the rebels than the rebels are.
Your choice to adhere to an ideological, partisan agenda rather than fact-based inquiry.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)in this country. He had his sources during the Iraq War, and he was right. I'll go with his assessment of the situation over the war mongers on the MSM any day. Their record on these issues is not just dismal, it is despicable as we all remember.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)the last time, trying to get to the facts. He was called a traitor, a Saddam lover etc by the rabid Far Right Warmongers.
And here he is, doing it again. Will the man never learn?
Lol, Parry, one of this country's best journalists.
Thanks for the OP.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Should've known you didn't like Robert Parry. The guy bases his reportage on facts.
SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
whatchamacallit
(15,558 posts)Is it from all the exhaustive research you do in the ten minutes a day you're not popping off in here?
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)You expect fact-free, hypothetical, and down right making-shit-up stuff from Fox and the National Enquierer.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)joeybee12
(56,177 posts)It's another just to make sh*t up.
The most reasonable explanation right now is that so called separatists, funded by the Russians, shot down that plane, either mistakenly or intentionally...they control that area, they have the weapons...no other media in any country, other than Russia, is buying the crap Parry and others are peddaling...he has absolutely no facts to support what he alleges...he's got nothing...
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Point out the 'crap' Parry is 'pedalling'. All you've done so far is fling poo without explaining why. I'm willing to consider your points IF they address what Parry actually said, but so far, you have not addressed anything Parry actually said.
joeybee12
(56,177 posts)not attend, writing things like "I was told..." that smacks of making shit up...then he jumps to someone from the Ukranian military doing it...sorry, shit is shit.
sufrommich
(22,871 posts)requisite "the jews did it".
Are the Russians and the rebels lying?
No!! That would be the World Zionists = Kerry , McCain , Clinton , Lindsay the Puke , Liar Harry , lame brain Pelosi , Kiev , NATO , AIPAC , ADL , The Israel lobby and 90% of DC .
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)SidDithers
(44,228 posts)Sid
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)The Corporate Media's CTs need to be investigated, as we all, at least Democrats in this country, know.
'I think' doesn't pass the lowest test in journalism.
There, fixed it.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)discussing THAT with you.
zappaman
(20,606 posts)Gets more embarrassing every time...
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)suppose. Good that they have this information. Now they can stop speculating with all the CTS we've been seeing on the Corporate Media and try to identify these people.
Hopefully an investigation, I know who needs that when we have the Corporate Media CTs, will be given access to this and all other material that can help get to the facts.
malaise
(268,693 posts)that Russia was involved. Have you seen any of the sheeple anywhere comment on that fact?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)in other venues. And no one has yet disputed it. But I have yet to hear it on the Corporate Media. Thank the gods we are not stuck with them, yet.
Igel
(35,274 posts)He says some anonymous person told him that some analysts--how many, their level of analysis, whether they still hold this view--told him that it was possible that the guy at the missile battery was wearing a Ukrainian uniform.
Have you seen a Ukrainian uniform?
Have you compared it with other kinds of uniforms?
To ID a Ukr uniform with any degree of precision you'd need to resolve, by satellite, images to within a cm or two. Moreover, you'd have to see the arm from the side.
Otherwise they look just like little green men. Even when you look at them in a full screen view, the two uniforms really look similar.
You know the "little green men." They're the people in Crimea that Putin denied were Russian military and then, after the fact, praised as Russian military for doing such a great job.
He doesn't need people to be convinced he's okay. He just needs there to be insufficient proof to show that he's not okay beyond a reasonable doubt.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)claims so far, have they?
Did you read the article btw? Did you read the LAT article on the same subject?
Did you say the same things about Sy Herch when HE revealed the torture of Iraqis BEFORE the story was proven to be true by the photos? I remember well how Hersch was attacked back then. Both he and Parry were proven to to be right about almost everything related to the Iraq War lies.
The only person making the claim about Ukrainian military uniforms is Parry. Who says he heard it from a guy who heard it from a guy.
It also ignores that Ukrainian uniforms and Russian uniforms are nearly identical, and that the separatists are wearing whatever was handy, including Russian and Ukrainian uniforms.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)the corporate media. You really should check things before you post.
Post a link to YOUR 'findings', I haven't heard even the CTs on the Corporate Media make such claims, YET.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Here's the thread where the uniforms comes up. It's the first mention, and everyone in the thread talks about how fantastic Parry is for finding this information.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025268517
Now you're claiming Parry didn't find the information first, based on it making Parry sound better.
Why do you think lying makes your argument stronger?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)not just by him. I am asking those slamming this award winning journalist to address the information in the article, rather than the knee jerk attacks on HIM.
Sy Hersch, Parry, are well respected and well known to have sources inside the Intel community which is why when either of them publishes a story like this, it is taken SERIOUSLY. Except by a few wackos on the right who similarly reacted to Sy Hersch's report on torture, eg, using HIS sources before they became public with the actual photos.
So forgive me if when I see someone like Sy Hersch, as I did, attacked, as I did, or someone like Parry, which I did, and am incredibly seeing again HERE, I will respond, as I always have considering their both their records of being PROVEN RIGHT throughout the past decade of lies and deceptions, in their defense.
Parry has inside sources, as did Sy Hersch. Sick to death of the lies and deceptions, now creeping onto even formerly fact seeking forums like this one.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Alternatively, that other story and thread are a lie.
Pick one. You are lying now, or all those other people, including Parry, were lying then.
We already did. In that other thread, where we demonstrated the "uniform" claim is laughable. Both because uniforms don't prove who is with which force during a rebellion, and because any scenario where the separatists are not the ones shooting has enormous holes. For example, that scenario requires the separatists were protecting the Ukrainian government by blocking access to the site.
Now, Parry has a new story, trying to explain how he wasn't wrong about the uniforms in his first story. If he's such a stellar journalist, how come he 1) didn't issue a correction and 2) didn't figure out the uniform claim had problems before he wrote the first story?
Parry did good work in the past. So did the NYT. Good work in the past does not guarantee good work forever.
Well, you could do your part by not lying.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)the LAT story on the briefing, wherein they 'deduced' FROM THE BRIEFING that those images showing the missile launcher being operated by people in what appear to be Unkraine uniforms, COULD be a DEFECTOR from the Ukraine military. Iow, they heard what he had and surmised it could be explained IF the operator/operators was a defector.
Do not call me a liar.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)This thread is the second article. i've already provided a link to the previous article.
You are alternating between claiming this article is newer than the older article, or utterly ignoring the existence of the older article.
Then stop lying.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)chance that is true. There WAS a briefing, did you not know that? The LAT has surmised, they do not know, that the Ukraine uniformed individual wearing the Ukraine army, that would be the Kiev military who are killing their own people in Eastern Ukraine, may be a deserter from the Ukraine military. The LAT is not disputing the fact the US Intel community has stated that they have viewed video of the missile being launched, by persons dressed in Ukraine military garb.
You call everyone a liar who doesn't try to fit YOUR narrative. Even highly respected, certainly on the Left due to his record, journalists like Parry.
The fact is this story IS being reported, AS I SAID, and so far there has been no official response denying it.
Do not call me a liar.
IF Parry was the ONLY source for this story, I would be 100% certain it is true. His reputation as a journalist is THAT GOOD.
GeorgeGist
(25,311 posts)He presents absolutely no evidence but anything is possible.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)no evidence but unlike the Corporate Media he isn't making stuff up. What he is doing, is looking at what is known, such as our Intel, and this has reported elsewhere, saw people wearing Ukraine uniforms operating the missile launcher. Is that what you are disputing, you didn't say what you dispute.
Our Corporate Media, rather than wait to identify who these people are, 'speculated' that the leader is a 'defector'. That is what Parry is addressing, the speculation.
Btw, did you read the article?
malaise
(268,693 posts)That simple. The Dutch are taking this approach. Trust none and wait for the facts.
I find it hysterically funny listening to corporate hacks suggesting that the Russians are pushing propaganda. What's the West pushing???
Same shit, different day.
I have never been a member of the sheeple.
Cogito ergo sum!!!
Octafish
(55,745 posts)Same with malaise, every word.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Things that are not in question, thanks to the laws of physics:
-The plane crashed in separatist territory.
-The launcher was in separatist territory - from where the plane crashed, we know that Ukrainian government territory is out of range of where the plane crashed.
Option 1: The separatists fired a missile from their territory, mistaking the passenger plane for a military transport. They've used the same missiles to shoot down other Ukrainian military planes.
Option 2: The Ukrainian army sent a large invasion force in order to push deep into separatist territory, without anyone mentioning it - no Ukrainian government claims, no separatist claims, no civilians saying "The government just took over". And despite the fact that the separatists have no aircraft, the Ukrainians sent a SAM launcher. Which they then fired at the commercial plane, which was flying an unusual route, so the Ukrainians could not have anticipated it would have flown overhead.
Then the Ukrainian army retreated from the separatist territory. Again with no mention of the retreat by anyone - no separatists announcing that they are pushing the government back or any civilians saying "the government just left again". That allowed the separatists to hold the crash site.
After taking the crash site, the separatists blocked access to the wreck and the bodies, in order to protect the Ukrainian government. Instead of using the shoot-down for a massive political victory that would greatly help their rebellion.
If you're clinging to the possibility of option 2, you're not wanting to conduct a "serious and impartial investigation". Your political beliefs are clouding your judgement.
conservaphobe
(1,284 posts)Anyone have Parry's e-mail?
I'll ask him that and show him the sad scenes in The Netherlands his friends caused:
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Laughable to think that Parry, who has witnessed more tragic wars and their aftermath than I'm guessing you could even imagine, has not seen those tragic pictures. You seem to USING them, which imo is pretty reprehensible. I know for a fact that in that country, which still places such value on human life, a post such as yours, filled with disrespectful snark using the victims as a political tool, would be devastating to them. I hope none of the read ever stumble on comments such as this. Having experience losses such as theirs, I know how such comments can hurt the loved ones whose emotions right now are so raw.
Please do all of us a favor and do not use these tragic victims for the purpose of mocking anyone.
RIP to all those who have died and peace to their loved ones!
conservaphobe
(1,284 posts)It's sad that he has witnessed all of that and has pivoted toward being on the wrong side of history.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)about a great journalist who has dedicated his life to TRUTH and FACTS.
You have not said one word about the actual article, nor referred to one word of what he is saying.
So other than attempting, and failing miserably because you are on DU where Parry is a known and credible source for years, what exactly is it you are disputing in this article?
Attacking the messenger doesn't go over very well here, absent some intelligent presentation of facts to dispute what the messenger is saying.
conservaphobe
(1,284 posts)Now time to run an antivirus... the design looked a little sketchy.
Igel
(35,274 posts)That's the entirety of the argument. He's right because he is who he is.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html
jeff47
(26,549 posts)jeff47
(26,549 posts)to post a new version to cover for his errors.
And we're supposed to be impressed with his journalism because........?
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)Parry is an excellent journalist as most democrats know.
Read the article, you are embarrassing yourself at this point.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)No, the people insisting that politics trumps basic physics are the ones doing the embarrassing.
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Nor the difference between an article that reports on something and an editorial. Okay.
More attacking the messenger rather than discussing what is being said. And calling sabrina1 a liar on more than one occasion is lunacy.
jeff47
(26,549 posts)Yes, quoting sources is always the best reporting.
Parry should have taken a moment to think "Does this story make sense?". Apparently, he didn't.
Ignore all the claims about who had what missile, and who detected what, or all the other claims that aren't instantly provable. You're left with the separatists blocking access to the site - there is absolutely no dispute that the separatists were blocking investigators at the time. Which means if his source's story was true, the separatists were protecting the Ukrainian government.
That makes no sense whatsoever. Which means he should have doubted the source instead of being a stenographer.
Now we get a new story where he's claiming his original story was true, but now we can read the mind of the operators and tell that they were defectors. And his original story is fine, even though this new story utterly annihilates the premise of the first story - that Ukraine fired the missile.
Oilwellian
(12,647 posts)He's quoting his intelligence sources and the LA Times. I wonder if they're the same sources he had during the Iran/Contra scandal.
sabrina 1
(62,325 posts)as clearly they did not even read the article. Thanks for restoring my faith in DU that we do still have members who actually READ before they jump.