At this point, the well of peace is poisoned for at least another generation...

[fujiyama]

I'm not going to get into the "who started what" about the conflict. It's not clear who killed those Israeli teens or the Palestinian teen after. I'm not sure if Hamas ramped up rocket attacks after those tragic killings. I do know they have been launching them over the years. Netanyahu may have been "forced" into this for domestic political reasons (if he sounds contentious, the others in his party and the other RW parties sound much, much worse). It is rumored he wouldn't have survived politically if he didn't launch the offensive into Gaza. But then again, only the truly courageous risk peace over political expediency.

I also don't have any use or interest in defending Hamas or its actions. Launching errant rockets constantly into a country with the aim of terrorizing the civilian population is, of course wrong. Any so called liberal that supports them is a useful idiot at best - there is no defense in supporting a terrorist group which has a charter preaching the destruction of another people.

I will however say this - when you have killed well over a thousand people and are bombing hospitals, schools, and places of shelter for civilians you lose the moral high ground - regardless if the other side is using human shields.

The brutal destruction of Gaza IS indeed terrorism - and in a more massive scale, not with just the mere aim of causing terror, but with the action of actually doing so by killing. I will not use a loaded word like genocide, but this is the first time I have viewed the brutality in such a light. It is simply morally indefensible to basically imprison a people for the actions of a few incompetent fanatics like Hamas. The people of Gaza have been blockaded for several years and their movement has been restricted to the point where they couldn't even go to the West Bank. Their civilian infrastructure has been destroyed. They are at risk of water borne diseases, if the missiles don't kill them first. As the more powerful nation, you have the moral duty to not target civilian power and other basic utilities.

Israel may "win" this battle. Maybe they'll knock out some tunnels, destroy some of the rocket stockpiles. Then what? More will be built. More will be smuggled - through Iran, or Egypt, or Syria, or wherever else.

Israel has also likely lost the best hope for peace it had in recent years. At this point, I cannot imagine a better potential partner than Abbas. A more moderate Palestinian leader will probably not make it.

And the sad thing is, the Israelis don't seem to care. The settlements will continue. And the public there seems less concerned than ever. There has been an unfortunate rightward shift in their politics over the years. Younger Israelis and the public in general there seem less concerned about remaining democratic, than remaining Jewish. There is however no way to remain a Jewish state by keeping another people occupied. Until the Palestinians are allowed to live in a free state, you cannot remain both a Jewish state and democratic. The compromise must be made now. That's what Obama stressed as well when he visited last year. But he was ignored then and ignored now. Hopefully they realize this before the hatred consumes yet another generation.

[Scootaloo]

1. There's an old (and admittedly gross) saying about premarital sex...

"Why buy the cow when the milk is free?" Meaning of course, why commit to marriage when you can get the nookie any time you like? As backwards as that train of thought is today (among most people...) I think it's apt for the position we see in the Middle east.

Why would Israel want make peace?

When the Palestinians are docile, Israel takes as it pleases from them. Who needs a treaty, when you can just send in some thugs under armed guard, drive some families off their land, and set up a new "township"? When Gaza is quiet, Israel just takes for granted the strangling blockade it's had on them for the past eight years. status quo is maintained, and Israel reaps the profits.

When the Palestinian are restive, israel jams its unlubed tank barrels as far up their asses as it can and lets go. But the best part for Israel, is that it's all free, free, free!. The US subsidizes Israel's military spending - as do numerous other western nations (though not with such volume as we do). If Israel burns through its civvie-killing reserves, well, we open hte locker for them to restock, as a nice gift to them. and then after they're done hacking and chopping their way through their Arabistans, they can say "look how awful these people are, how can we ever make peace... unless they give us even more land as concessions before we resume talks!"

Why would Israel want to make peace? a peace treaty carries obligations and responsibilities. it would require recognizing a Palestinian state - with borders, and sovereignty, and all these other things that impinge on what Israel wants. And since Israel is getting what it wants anyway, free of charge, why commit? Why sign a treaty of any sort, the "milk" is completely free.

[former9thward]

7. What exactly is Israel "taking" from Gaza?

When the Palestinians are docile, Israel takes as it pleases from them. Who needs a treaty, when you can just send in some thugs under armed guard, drive some families off their land, and set up a new "township"? When Gaza is quiet, Israel just takes for granted the strangling blockade it's had on them for the past eight years. status quo is maintained, and Israel reaps the profits.

What "township" is being established in Gaza? What are the "profits" Israel is reaping from Gaza?

[Scootaloo]

9. I speak of the overal situation of Palestine, former9thward.

it may have escaped you, but Gaza is part of Palestine.

[former9thward]

10. It seems all the trouble comes from Gaza.

That may have escaped you.

[Scootaloo]

11. Re-read what you quoted from me. Then think on what you just posted.

There's wisdom to be found.

[MH1]

14. Why are you ignoring settlements in the West Bank?

This is the part I find most puzzling about this whole situation. Israel continues to take, take, take land in the West Bank. Why? What is their justification?

[Spitfire of ATJ]

17. They claim it's for their own security.

[regnaD kciN]

2. I think the Israeli leadership sees another alternative...

There is however no way to remain a Jewish state by keeping another people occupied. Until the Palestinians are allowed to live in a free state, you cannot remain both a Jewish state and democratic. The compromise must be made now.

Put simply: why compromise when you can just make the other side...disappear?

As I and others have described it, a "final solution to the Palestinian problem."

[fujiyama]

3. It's clear there's no intention of a sincere effort on Netanyahu's part

Just by calling it Judea and Samaria, he's dismissing any claim Palestinians have to a state of their own.

And what kind of state is to be had that has roads and settlements cut through it?

[Uncle Joe]

4. Unless the Israelis and/or their government has a major epipihany, I see no end to this.

Thanks for the thread, fujiyama.

[fujiyama]

6. I was reluctant to even start this thread

because I admired what I believed to be a modern and dynamic democratic state in a region of despotic regimes. I could justify to myself in spite of its violent and colonial formation, the absolute need for a Jewish state in a land of their ancestors (and this too is difficult to reconcile considering there were natives living there already).

But the images of the last few weeks are just too shocking - the screaming babies and the destruction of entire neighborhoods - is just way too much for any unbiased person to justify. I have read enough history of the region and have enough empathy to understand the viewpoint of both sides. It just greatly saddens me that the descendants of the holocaust could be so supportive of what is clearly indiscriminate slaughter of innocent civilians.

Once again this doesn't excuse or condone Hamas' actions. I don't even believe it's necessarily to say this - but when you have upwards of 1400 people dead on one side and fewer than 100 on the other (most of which are military), your perspective of a conflict is bound to change.

[Uncle Joe]

12. I have the same internal conflict regarding Israel, fujiyama, I want them to succeed and be

an example of how democracy can work for the betterment of the people, not just Israelis but all the the people in that region.

The fact that I care about the people of Israel, not to mention Palestine, compels me to post against or criticize their government when they do commit atrocities; whether that be committing mass murder, the slow but methodical subjugation of the Palestinian People via ever encroaching, settlements or blockading and subsequent ghettoizing of the open air prison; that is Gaza.

Netanyahu's right wing, hard-line, abusive policies can only serve to fuel increased hatred and create more fighters committed to destroying Israel, it's a self-perpetuating cycle to an endless war.

I see only two ways to break that cycle.

1. Negotiate a good faith peace agreement with the Palestinians, honoring their elections as a democratic mandate, and allow Palestine to become a free and independent nation, even if it that means sharing Jerusalem as a Capital. They must regain trust of one another.

2. Is a much darker path, take up that hate monger's advice whose editorial was scrubbed from a Jerusalem Paper's website and commit themselves to genocide, try to create the peace and quiet of a mass graveyard, wiping out all Palestinians. Whereas the people of Israel literally become what they claim to or should hate the most, but this is a surefire path to Perdition.

However it must be also stated that #2 has the distinct possibility of leading to WWIII with Israel and from our blind faith backing of all things Israel, to date regardless of their actions, the U.S.; being on the wrong side of history.

[fujiyama]

13. There has been a pretty clear rightward shift in Israeli politics over the last 14 years

Last edited Fri Aug 1, 2014, 11:57 PM - Edit history (2)

Since the Second Intifada, the general mood seems to have shifted toward Likud and other right of center parties. Israeli politicians seem incapable of showing the political and moral courage required to forge peace. It seems so bad that Netanyahu isn't even the worst of the lot (some in the cabinet were threatening to resign during the peace plan negotiations Kerry was trying to forge a few months ago).

You bring up an interesting point about a wider war in the middle east. Currently it seems like with the exception of Iran, other countries are not showing any support for Hamas. But the destabilizing effect could potentially topple these rulers (typically western puppets). Not only that but if a rocket were launched by Hamas containing a "WMD" of some sort and it were traced back to Iran, then it's impossible to know where it would lead. An all out aerial assault on Iran by Israel would certainly lead to a wider war.

At the moment, I don't see any countries doing anything more about the situation. After all, over 200,000 people have been killed in Syria alone and little has been done to stop the violence. Iraq is basically on the brink of complete collapse.

It's unfortunate that a region containing so much of mankind's earliest civilization is at risk of being destroyed.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

16. Darth Cheney got some of his best material from the Likud Party.

[4now]

5. Which is exactly what Israel wanted.

That way they can continue to steal Palestinian land.

[Aerows]

8. It's disastrous

all the way around.

[Spitfire of ATJ]

15. I keep saying, the choice isn't between Israel and Hamas...

It's between war and peace.

And war has become a valued tradition for BOTH sides.